Sense prevails in US politics

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Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
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somewhere; sometime?
well, the entire debate is pointless here.
the forum is wrong.

the argument is about competing philosophies.
no one is right, no one is wrong, because no one is going to change anyone's mind.
at the core of each argument is just another interpretation of the constitution or what was meant by the declaration, including a personal belief regarding human rights.

we need a more diverse audience in order to have a meaningful discussion.
 

Benfica

European Redneck
Feb 6, 2006
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kiff said:
those are obvious exceptions. all of which we already have more than ample programs for. and for that matter, we already have medicaid for the poor. the supposed goal here is to plug every single possible existing imperfection in the system. utopia awaits
I was not talking about the poor, the programs, medicaid, the system or the bill. I was talking about an (IMHO) quick and simplistic post. Regardless of your perspective you see the can of worms this is.

There are guys that are parasites and we DO have citizen groups and a petition that want to get rid of RSI; people that have reduced mobility and still have to work. I know VERY WELL what I'm talking about here, 4 years ago I had a gf with disabilities

There's just one thing that it's clear to me: health insurance looks like a tax and even with it, you seem to be paying full price.
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
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Tx.
www.desert-conflict.org
the argument is about competing philosophies.
no one is right, no one is wrong, because no one is going to change anyone's mind.
indeed
at the core of each argument is just another interpretation of the constitution or what was meant by the declaration, including a personal belief regarding human rights.
there's your problem. the founders made it very, very clear what their philosophies were. it's beyond obvious what their intentions were. they stated and restated them on many occasions and corrected ppl's misinterpretations of them.

you can interpret the bible as saying we should all **** cats and piss on each other, but it's obviously wrong.
 

Larkin

Gone
Apr 4, 2006
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there's your problem. the founders made it very, very clear what their philosophies were. it's beyond obvious what their intentions were. they stated and restated them on many occasions and corrected ppl's misinterpretations of them.

you can interpret the bible as saying we should all **** cats and piss on each other, but it's obviously wrong.

Exactly.
-----

For some reason I searched for socialist on wikipedia and I saw the oxymoron that is the existence of the "socialist economics" page so I just had to click it. I found some gold in there at the end which for some reason I can't resist to quote. I know this is more communist then socialist, but as this is the only political thread going on and its at least a bit socialist for now I say wtf. I won't even pretend anyone will care about this, but like I said wtf.

wikipedia said:
"In his work, Socialism, Ludwig Von Mises criticized socialism for its inability to calculate rationally:

"To suppose a socialist community could substitute calculation in kind for calculation in terms of money is an illusion. In a community that does not practice exchange, calculations in kind can never cover more than consumption goods. They break down entirely once goods of higher order are concerned. Every step that moves away from private ownership of the means of production is a step away from rational economic calculation"

Von Mises also pointed out socialism's tendency to consume capital, whose accumulation is the source of economic progress:

"In fact, socialism is not in the least what it pretends to be. It is not the pioneer of a better world, but the spoiler of what thousands of years of civilization has created. It does not build; it destroys. Destruction is the essence of it. It produces nothing, and only consumes what the private ownership of the means of production has created. Since a socialist order of society cannot exist, unless it be a fragment of socialism within an economic order resting otherwise on private property, each step leading towards socialism must exhaust itself in the destruction of what already exists."

In conclusion, Von Mises warned his audience against the consequences of socialist economics.

"If the intellectual dominance of socialism remains unshaken, then in a short time the whole cooperative system that Europe has built up for thousands of years will be shattered. For a socialist order of society is unrealizable. All efforts to realize socialism leads only to the destruction of society. Factories, mines, and railways will come to a standstill, while towns become deserted. The population of the industrial societies will die out or migrate elsewhere. The farmer will return to the self-sufficiency of the closed, domestic economy. Without private ownership of the means of production there is, in the long run, no production other than hand-to-mouth production for one's needs.""

I have to read this guys book, now. :eager:
 
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Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
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somewhere; sometime?
the founders made it very, very clear what their philosophies were. it's beyond obvious what their intentions were. they stated and restated them on many occasions and corrected ppl's misinterpretations of them.
but even among the founding fathers there was debate over how their words should be interpreted. there were competing ideologies and philosophies throughout the Second Continental Congress, it's not like they all agreed on exactly what was put on paper.

they did their best to reconcile their own differing opinions.

what you forget is that they also made it very clear how the constitution's greatest power lies in its ability to adapt and change to meet the needs of the people as society progressed.

it's not set in stone.
 

MÆST

Active Member
Jan 28, 2001
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For some reason I searched for socialist on wikipedia and I saw the oxymoron that is the existence of the "socialist economics" page so I just had to click it. I found some gold in there at the end which for some reason I can't resist to quote. I know this is more communist then socialist, but as this is the only political thread going on and its at least a bit socialist for now I say wtf. I won't even pretend anyone will care about this, but like I said wtf.

I have to read this guys book, now. :eager:

Anytime someone finds Ludwig von Mises I am happy. In my opinion he is the single greatest social scientist ever. (So why haven't you guys heard of him?) His political philosophy was nothing ground breaking, as it was essentially classical liberalism. But he was one of the last of the classical liberals, and he gathered the hundreds of years of work in classical liberalism into a coherent ideology, and defended it against the onslaught of socialism and progressivism.

He also was at the forefront of the intellectual fight against socialism. His book Socialism, which I am guessing is where the paragraph you quote is from, completely dismantled the intellectual framework of socialist planners. Combined with Hayek's additional arguments about the impossibility of socialist calculation, he was able to foresee and explain the collapse of the Soviet Union.

He also predicted the Great Depression, and explained why New Deal policies did nothing but draw it out. After all, he was really an economist, and his political opinions necessarily drew upon economic truths. Human Action was his magnum opus, and I'm proud to say I was able to read all 1000+ pages of it. Finally, his Theory of Money and Credit explains the essential causes of serious recessions like the one we are currently muddling through. Too bad more people of power didn't read and understand that book.

Add in a personal harrowing story of escaping Austria ahead of the Nazis and you've got the icing on the cake.
 

MÆST

Active Member
Jan 28, 2001
2,898
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WA, USA
but even among the founding fathers there was debate over how their words should be interpreted. there were competing ideologies and philosophies throughout the Second Continental Congress, it's not like they all agreed on exactly what was put on paper.

You are correct, there was plenty of disagreement. The good news is that disagreement is preserved in Madison's notes on the Constitutional Convention and the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. Plus many more pamphlets and letters. Have you read them?

what you forget is that they also made it very clear how the constitution's greatest power lies in its ability to adapt and change to meet the needs of the people as society progressed.

it's not set in stone.

Also true. Instead of ignoring the Constitution how about you advocate Change. After all "Change" has a better ring to it than "Ignore".
 

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
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somewhere; sometime?
the Constitutional Convention and the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. Plus many more pamphlets and letters. Have you read them?
during my sophomore year I read most of the Anti and Federalist papers for my American Presidency class. of the Federalist, I think we read at least 50 of the 85 or so that exist. as for the flip side, he had us use this book for our text. but I don't know how many Anti- papers are actually out there, since that book is merely a selected collection.

in that same semester I had a Congressional Legislation class that required selected readings of Madison's notes from this book.

oh!
and I saw that HBO series on John Adams, every episode, so I totally know what went on in that convention.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Hey share some of that "commonwealth" you have with me :p .