Something that was missing from UT2003/4

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Deadmeat

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Mar 31, 2006
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A lot of the discussion on the boards revolves around simple gameplay mechanics (weapon damage, movement speeds etc…). For me it’s something slightly more intangible that will make or break a game. One thing I feel is missing from UT2003/4 is the atmosphere and imaginative style of Unreal and Unreal Tournament. The earlier games made a far greater use of bright and vibrant colours – they were rich in reds, greens, blues etc..

The maps themselves were also more interesting, most of them really did feel like they were real locations that had been converted into battle arenas. There were lots of nice little touches that brought the maps to life without interrupting the gameplay. Quite often you would also need to adapt your style of play depending on the map design. I really enjoyed being able to pick a map that suited my current mood – if I was feeling aggressive I play something that was balls to the wall action, if I was more relaxed I might play a more open level were I could sit and snipe. The maps in UT2003/4 feet open and spacious whether they were or not. The UT2003/4 maps all feel alittle generic and unconvincing. There’s a lot of shiny grey in the locations which doesn’t exactly help fire the imagination. This could well be down to the use of the same static meshes and the lack of colourful textures applied to them. It also looks pretty obvious that some of the maps (especially from UT2003) have been designed to show off all the fancy graphics and effects rather than being playable and enjoyable.

Unreal and Unreal Tournament also had far more evocative sound effects and music. The weapons all had a nice meaty feel to them and made satisfying bangs when fired. The music complemented the style of the game and added to the pace of the maps. The thumping tunes in maps like DM-Liandri and DM-Morpheous really did get the juices flowing and added nicely to the absolutele carnage you could get on those maps. But at the same time there was some nice eerie music for the more exotic, alien locations which built up tension in a totally different manor. The UT2003/4 music, while having far higher production values, just didn’t really engage me in the same way.

And one final problem for me personally was the way the game just didn’t feel that convincing – there was too many little things that just destroyed the illusion of world. One of my biggest gripes is the scale – the characters in the game just look tiny, even up close and don’t really look like they belong in the game environments. The way they move is also pretty unconvincing. I don’t mean the unrealistic moves they can pull off, it’s the way they pull them off, their leg and arm movements just don’t look that human.


I think UT2007 really needs to recapture some of the atmosphere and ingenuity of the earlier games. I can overlook minor flaws in a game if I can really ‘get into’ the universe that it’s created for itself (I'm not talking about super grahpics here by the way). I find that because UT2003/4 didn’t really seem to have this I actually started getting bored with it after a few weeks and the flaws in the games would become more and more apparent so that in the end I just stopped playing.


Does anyone else have any opinions on this aspect of the unreal games?
 
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Selerox

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A dropped ball Epic can pick up.

I'd definitley agree there. The maps in UT200x looked amazing, but most of them seemed to look that way because someone thought "That theme would look good as a map", rather than in UT where it felt like they let their imagination run a lot more.

UT had bags of atmosphere (which was helped a lot by the music as well imo), the maps in UT200x simply don't have anything you can emotionally attach yourself to. In UT200x you think "it's a map, it looks pretty", in UT you felt like you were in a real place (fictional, yes, but they felt like realistic locations most of the time, despite the weird an wonderful locations).

I just don't get that feeling of "I am somewhere real" in UT200x, despite the updated engine and funky effects. It's that suspension of disbelief that UT200x lacked and UT had in spades. the whole feel of UT200x makes me feel as if there's more of a degree of seperation between me and the game than the original. I don't feel "in the game" like I did (and still do) with UT.

Yes, the game's Unreal - and should stay that way in spirit - but I'd like to feel that I actually am in a real place.
 

lotus1984

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nice point.. i totally agree, especially regarding weapons sounds and map design. i think ut has good gameplay but it's not involving like quake3/4 or painkiller are.:rolleyes:
 

MonsOlympus

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You make some good points deadmeat but I do disagree about the music, I really think the music in ut2k4 was awsome maybe not all the tracks but I enjoy listening to them even when Im not playing ut. I mean rankin, roughinery, slaughter - remix (only on kr's site) and serenity are a few of my favs. The remix of the ut99 theme was awsomely done and the one for uc2 even better I just really like the way the music is going and when they took a look back at ut99 before moving onto 2k4 it shows through alot in the music.

I fully agree with you on the maps though, most just seem so out of whack compared to the gameplay for some reason. There are a few that are done flawlessly and you can tell are tested to death but others its like why the hell did they put that mesh there. The one thing that really killed it for me was the lack of sportyness, yeah they put lights everywhere but its not well designed. There can be shadows in maps, the older maps seem to be alittle darker so the grungyness shows through a bit more on the less tech maps.

I dunno what it is about 2k4 but it seems as though with every one good feature epic put in there people found two more ways to exploit something, This is one thing thats alot less apparent in ut99 as everything is alot simplier.

Yeah I think lighting is a major one in most maps and was alot better in ut99, probably adds more to the atmosphere as well as giving you that feeling of "I am somewhere real". It seems epic is working to fix this with the new engine not that 2k4 wasnt capable of decent lighting it just wasnt used very much. Better use of shadows would have given better contrast as well fully utilising more of the darker colours, I know alot of people who dont like the 2kx series because it uses alot more bright colours but really no more than other games. The sporty feel could have come through alot more by using better lighting and would have pulled the themes together more from ut99.

Edit: Ok so I played ut99 and some 2k4 and maybe Im not completly right, there seems to be some issues with lighting on some maps but most of the 2k4 ones are good comparable to the ut99 ones. The remake maps seem to have a few issues but I dunno if scaling is one of them perhaps its just a reason for people to say I like my ut99 better.... Just navigating the levels is fine, like the deck remake is pretty decently scaled as it was originally too small anyways. Maybe people should actually look at ut99 objectivly and compare it to 2k4 properly, I mean it does do somethings better, but not everything. 2k4 does do alot right people just need a reason to complain I guess. I even installed 2k3 and had a look at that, I really cant see the problems I mean no game is perfect and expecting one to be might be alittle to much. No doubts 2k7 will bring back a bit more of that ut99 flavour mixed with some 2k4 and uc2 goodness, bring it on epic I soo cant wait anymore. :D
 
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Deadmeat

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Mar 31, 2006
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MonsOlympus said:
The remake maps seem to have a few issues but I dunno if scaling is one of them, I dunno perhaps its just a reason for people to say I like my ut99 better.... Just navigating the levels is fine, like the deck remake is pretty decently scaled as it was originally too small anyways.

It's not the way the maps have been scaled up, it's the way the player models are to small for ALL the maps. When you see an enemy they don't quite look big enough for their surrondings - which destroys the illusion of you actually taking part in a no holds barred fight in the future. It's not a remake issue it's a general game design problem.
The colour variety and vibrancy is as much to do with the slightly bland textures as it is to do with the lighting. I don't mind if the lighting isn't quite right, as long as it's bold and colourful. Like I said it's not something that you can easily put your finger on, but UT2003/4 are lacking that little extra that made the earlier games more involving.
 

N1ghtmare

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I agree that the scaling is messed up. When I play Rankin, The upper ledge by the shock rifle looks like its 2 stories high, and the level Curse4, the 'small' holes that your player can go through are too big.

UT2004 music is great, but some songs are just horrible. Play
DM-Morpheous in UT99 and listen to the music. Got me pumped and ready to fight. The music in DM-Morpheous3 for UT2004 put me to sleep.
 

hal

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Deadmeat... added paragraphs... hope you don't mind. :)

I think what you said captures the general feeling both within the gaming public and at Epic Games. You're right about a number of points, but let me make it even simpler:

If Epic creates great map layouts for UT2007, with restrained use of static meshes, and lighting that doesn't belong more in a singleplayer or stealth game, and music that equals the awesome UT tunes - but gets the movement and weapon balance wrong... people will still hate it.

You say certain maps fit your moods in UT. There are some very good maps in UT2x that just don't work because of the gameplay.

Scale is also something that Epic says they are working on. The UT2x characters are actually larger than the UT characters, but the maps had to be scaled up to match the movement. The eye-height is off as well. That just exacerbates the movement/gameplay issues.

I personally think they got a lot right with UT2x but there were an equal number of misteps in hindsight. I also think that UT gets too much credit for having great maps - there are an equal number of clunkers. I guarantee if some of the UT2x maps were in UT we'd be praising them as well.

Anyhow, it all seems to be stuff that Epic is talking about fixing, so cheers for that.
 

Deadmeat

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Mar 31, 2006
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hal said:
You say certain maps fit your moods in UT. There are some very good maps in UT2x that just don't work because of the gameplay.

Err, kinda lost me with the above statement.

And yes, if the weapon balance and movements buggered the game will suck - what I mean is assuming they get those mostly right it's the atmosphere and settings that will decide whether I play the game for weeks or years.

hal said:
I personally think they got a lot right with UT2x but there were an equal number of misteps in hindsight. I also think that UT gets too much credit for having great maps - there are an equal number of clunkers
Well sure there were some maps that weren't great - but I could live with those because the rest of the game was so engrossing. I am being harsh considering the quality of UT2004, but it's the things we love the most we can be most hard on (or something along those lines)

Still glad to hear they're trying to address some of my own concerns (umm not personally mind)

O yeah, it does look better with paragraphs :D
 
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Neophoenix

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Deadmeat put into words what I have felt for a long time. Esp in reguards to the feel and moods of UT maps over UT2kx. I would elaborate more, but since it would just be a repeat of what Deadmeat said, I won't.


P.S. You wouldn't happen to be MoF-Deadmeat from UT would you?
 

MonsOlympus

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Originally posted by Deadmeat
It's not the way the maps have been scaled up, it's the way the player models are to small for ALL the maps. When you see an enemy they don't quite look big enough for their surrondings - which destroys the illusion of you actually taking part in a no holds barred fight in the future. It's not a remake issue it's a general game design problem.
Yeah I agree, maybe its because I do spend alot of time developing so I use behindview alot more than your regular players so I dont tend to notice the problem as much as I should. The ut series is one of the best in terms of getting the fp weapons and fov down pretty well, but as you say its a player scaling issue.

Originally posted by Hal
Scale is also something that Epic says they are working on. The UT2x characters are actually larger than the UT characters, but the maps had to be scaled up to match the movement. The eye-height is off as well. That just exacerbates the movement/gameplay issues.
It does seem to be the eye-height thats the issue especially when in the fp view, when in tp things look alittle better and most maps are decently scaled even if some are a bit wide or a little tall. Ive tried tweaking the eye-height myself and the player scale but in trying to change this I think it just made things worse. Everytime I made the eye-height higher I had to scale the player up a bit to match and couldnt really fault the 2k4 scale, perhaps due to my lack of experience. I think if the characters were scaled and reimported it could make more of a difference then the eye-height could be tweaked to match. Another thing I noticed is all the players have the same sized collision cylinder which might be causing problems as not all the character are of similar size and shape, since some of the animations are exaggerated in 2k4 the cylinder was made to match the full extent of the movement not just the characters shape.

Originally posted by Deadmeat
The colour variety and vibrancy is as much to do with the slightly bland textures as it is to do with the lighting. I don't mind if the lighting isn't quite right, as long as it's bold and colourful. Like I said it's not something that you can easily put your finger on, but UT2003/4 are lacking that little extra that made the earlier games more involving.
Agreed, bold and colourful seems to be a bit more in ut99, 2k4 does have some really nice lit maps but the colours used on the lighting is less colourful some of which is made up for with textures. As you say the textures can be bland sometimes and take away from what can be a good map, really though its because most of the 2kx maps follow more set themes than the ut99 ones mainly because of the addition of static meshes which can be common amongst a group of maps.

Originally posted by Hal
If Epic creates great map layouts for UT2007, with restrained use of static meshes, and lighting that doesn't belong more in a singleplayer or stealth game, and music that equals the awesome UT tunes - but gets the movement and weapon balance wrong... people will still hate it.
Yes, restrained use of static meshes is a good way to look at it. Details are nice but in 2kx you can tell some meshs are just added purely for eye candy which isnt really a bad thing but it should be wieghted against how well that mesh fits with the gameplay. By saying shadows I wasnt really hinting at darkmatches but just generally not as pronounced lights, smaller radius and less bright lights can be used and still give a well lit map without being too dues ex :lol: Also the use of bigger ambient lights will give nice big shadows that are supported by spots and omni's will give more contrast.

Movement and weapon balance are something epic are going to right this time around I think, not that ut99 or 2kx were bad, there is room for improvement. Tweaking on the weapons/movement and bringing them up to a standard both ut99 and 2kx players are happy with will be the thing that really defines 2k7.
 

JeniSkunk

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The player scale to the maps doesn't feel so bad for the original maps. Those maps are made FOR UT2003/4.
But in the remake maps it's very aparent that things went awry. The maps are made huge so players can pull all the jumps and Adrenaline power moves, while forgetting about how fast and in-your-face the gameplay of the original maps felt. Resizing classic maps to make room for those moves breaks the feel of the originals.
Compare DM-Hyperblast2 to the original DM-Hyperblast. The original is tight, fast, deadly, and you had to be bloody sharp to deal with Xan on his home turf, and the music for the map; Go Down by Alexander Brandon; pumps you for the battle. In comparison DM-Hyperblast2 is huge, slow, lazy, and KR's remix music for it feels equally as bloated and overblown as the map it's used on.

Jenifur Charne
 

gregori

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Deadmeat said:
A lot of the discussion on the boards revolves around simple gameplay mechanics (weapon damage, movement speeds etc…). For me it’s something slightly more intangible that will make or break a game. One thing I feel is missing from UT2003/4 is the atmosphere and imaginative style of Unreal and Unreal Tournament. The earlier games made a far greater use of bright and vibrant colours – they were rich in reds, greens, blues etc..

The maps themselves were also more interesting, most of them really did feel like they were real locations that had been converted into battle arenas. There were lots of nice little touches that brought the maps to life without interrupting the gameplay. Quite often you would also need to adapt your style of play depending on the map design. I really enjoyed being able to pick a map that suited my current mood – if I was feeling aggressive I play something that was balls to the wall action, if I was more relaxed I might play a more open level were I could sit and snipe. The maps in UT2003/4 feet open and spacious whether they were or not. The UT2003/4 maps all feel alittle generic and unconvincing. There’s a lot of shiny grey in the locations which doesn’t exactly help fire the imagination. This could well be down to the use of the same static meshes and the lack of colourful textures applied to them. It also looks pretty obvious that some of the maps (especially from UT2003) have been designed to show off all the fancy graphics and effects rather than being playable and enjoyable.

Unreal and Unreal Tournament also had far more evocative sound effects and music. The weapons all had a nice meaty feel to them and made satisfying bangs when fired. The music complemented the style of the game and added to the pace of the maps. The thumping tunes in maps like DM-Liandri and DM-Morpheous really did get the juices flowing and added nicely to the absolutele carnage you could get on those maps. But at the same time there was some nice eerie music for the more exotic, alien locations which built up tension in a totally different manor. The UT2003/4 music, while having far higher production values, just didn’t really engage me in the same way.

And one final problem for me personally was the way the game just didn’t feel that convincing – there was too many little things that just destroyed the illusion of world. One of my biggest gripes is the scale – the characters in the game just look tiny, even up close and don’t really look like they belong in the game environments. The way they move is also pretty unconvincing. I don’t mean the unrealistic moves they can pull off, it’s the way they pull them off, their leg and arm movements just don’t look that human.


I think UT2007 really needs to recapture some of the atmosphere and ingenuity of the earlier games. I can overlook minor flaws in a game if I can really ‘get into’ the universe that it’s created for itself (I'm not talking about super grahpics here by the way). I find that because UT2003/4 didn’t really seem to have this I actually started getting bored with it after a few weeks and the flaws in the games would become more and more apparent so that in the end I just stopped playing.


Does anyone else have any opinions on this aspect of the unreal games?




:lol: Have been saying this for months also!

Gritty and realistic in the UT99 didn't mean no colours, and shiny metally pipes
or a rust factory. It was full of colours and moody lighting, bizarre skies and a multitude of map themes. They never seemed fake like they do in UT2kx despite a superior graphics engine. UT2kx had some interesting maps and visual themes but overall they don't add up!

Certainly Smote,Antalus,Citadel,Grendel Keep have good visual themes but they pale in comparison too most UT99 maps. The Sky box for CTF Face3 is excellent but the map is terrible gamplay wise.


The big difference between UT99 and UT2kx is that the maps feel like real places in UT99, and the maps in UT2kx feel like fake aeroboard toy maps that overuse the same meshes giving them a tiled look, use dull uninspired terrain so its hard to remember were you are on a map coz everywhere looks the same, the lighting is dull and washed out, Epic have forgotten you can use coloured lighting on their engine.

Rocks dont look like rocks on their current engine coz their done with terrain brush and look too smooth, for instance the difference between CTF Face in UT99 and CTF-FaceClassic in UT2k4. I want cliffs too look sheer, sharp and as if there made of solid rock. Having less polygons too spare in the original actually forced the mappers too make rocks more realistic in a way!

The map DM-Remenant in UC2 rocks!!!
 

HardcorexxX

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Well I doubt they will focus heavily on the music of the game, there are alot of other areas that need more attention, when looking at it from a development stand point, when ur including a built in mp3 player and you already know a large portion of your consumer base isnt going to listen to the music simply play thier own mp3's your desire for a really awsome track list is pretty much gone. Why focus on something people arent going to use? Hence the subpar sound track in 2k4.

As far as the levels go, I feel that ut2k4 was more desgined for interior facility like maps, the scaling the textures, the weapons, they all lend themselves to a more large facility like map. If you notice the majority of cool features map design and groovy involving stuff was put into the assault maps in 2k4, maybe you should check out how deep those maps are before you make to hard a judge.

2k4 jsut feels more systematic, you know there's a method to each map and they are all kinda more of a 1 trick pony, you play rankin one way you play camp another......there's less surprise and hey what if's in 2k4.
 

gregori

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CTF Maul has a nice visual theme to it despite boring gameplay, i hope that theme returns, on a better map!

The music has to go back to being really EPIC,Dramatic,Strong and Rocking, instead of this subtle crap, the original music made the game feel like you were in this Epic galactic tournament, i can remember most maps in UT99 from the track that went with them, I can't say the same for UT2kx.
Also a great variety of music is needed. Basically Epic should Hire the guys who did the music for Unreal/UT again!
 
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Deadmeat

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HardcorexxX said:
Why focus on something people aren’t going to use? Hence the subpar sound track in 2k4

Well, Epic certainly seemed to have spent a lot of money on the production of the music in UT2004. The standard of the music was very high, it just wasn’t the right kind for the game. If they’re so sure most people are going to be listening to their mp3’s why bother creating music at all? Unreal Tournament is a triple A franchise which has a budget larger than most films, I really can’t see there being any excuse for not producing a decent set of tracks.

HardcorexxX said:
As far as the levels go, I feel that ut2k4 was more designed for interior facility like maps, the scaling the textures, the weapons, they all lend themselves to a more large facility like map. If you notice the majority of cool features map design and groovy involving stuff was put into the assault maps in 2k4, maybe you should check out how deep those maps are before you make to hard a judge

There’s absolutely no reason all maps can’t have ‘cool features map design and groovy involving stuff’ (assuming your refering to the atmosphere and real location believability, not just gimmicks) and still retain there core playability. Your right that UT2004 did feel like it was designed for big facilities – probably one of the reasons a lot of the maps felt repetitive and unimaginative. There are some really great maps in UT2004 that retain the Unreal feel I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, just a shame they’re also the ones that didn’t play well.
 
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JeniSkunk

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Deadmeat said:
Well, Epic certainly seemed to have spent a lot of money on the production of the music in UT2004. The standard of the music was very high, it just wasn’t the right kind for the game. If they’re so sure most people are going to be listening to their mp3’s why bother creating music at all? Unreal Tournament is a triple A franchise which has a budget larger than most films, I really can’t see there being any excuse for not producing a decent set of tracks.

As has been noted in other forums around the WWW, the first part of preventing music problems in UT2007 is getting the old Straylight Productions crew back together.
And I agree with you that Epic failed to ensure that the tracks in UT2003/4 were decent.

Jenifur Charne
 

Selerox

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It's not that the music's *bad*, it just doesn't fit UT...

The music in UT200x was no nausiatingly bland, I just gave up on it. The always used to play with in-game music in UT99, but I gave up on that in UT200x pretty fast. All the tracks have the same kind of style (with a few exceptions).

It needs the UT99 style of music back very, very badly.
 

f.sardis

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the dark atmosphere that engaged most of us in the UT frenzy is gone. bright colours and crazy jumps make UT look like a disney movie. having said all that there are a few things that must happen for ut2k7 maps to be good.
first, they gotta fix the blood and gore. a map dressed in proper gore and gibs is better than what we have now. get over with the stupid bright red blood. its supposed to be dark red. also, make the gibs a bit more detailed. i flak a guy and all i see is pieces of chicken wings. a human body is not made of straight bones with meat around them. bring back the real anatomy.
fix the lights. no more overbright maps. unreal was always dark and moody. it was a bloodbath. its a massacre between insane ruthless butchers. dont give me bright colours and plenty of light but dont make it DOOM either.
thats all i can think of right now.
 

Deadmeat

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Neophoenix said:
P.S. You wouldn't happen to be MoF-Deadmeat from UT would you?

Umm, I don't think so, sorry.

f.sardis said:
the dark atmosphere that engaged most of us in the UT frenzy is gone. bright colours and crazy jumps make UT look like a disney movie........unreal was always dark and moody...... dont give me bright colours and plenty of light

I agree with the dark and moody, but I also liked the way there were some bright, strong colours included in them. It set up a good contrast.
 
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