UT2007: 11 Things Epic needs to do right.

briach · Nov 30, 2005

+1 More believable vehicle physics and HALO doing a good job with that

+1 louder, harsher, scary noises

More player/vehicle interaction. Roadrage is a 5 min hack. Just touch someone with a vehicle and they explode into gibs? Could be a lot better.

I think small weak points in large vehicles could make the game more immersive and fun. (Shadow of the Collosus anyone? bad example but meh)

More riding on top of vehicles. One very fun thing to do in ut2k4 is to stand 4 players on one manta at once and zip around the map. If they could allow players to do that more realistically in ut2k7, I think that could make for some great fun.

I don't like how players just bounce off the air vehicles, perhaps have them just slide off when the vehicle starts moving around?

m&ms · Nov 30, 2005

I agree on all except #8, #11, and rambowjo's #12

#8 - Balancing the ltg by adding a cone of fire unless you're sitting there, crouched and zoomed like an idiot is going to do two things. 1. encourage camping and 2. ruin the weapon. Besides, it makes no sense to have only one weapon use a cone of fire. Rockets and flak should have one too in that case, and it should be bigger because the weapon is heavier. Besides, if hitscan was so severely nerfed as that in terms of ease of use it would have to do about 90 damage per shot to make up for it. If not, then I'd just totally switch to bio/mini/link as my primary weapons. I also wouldn't like the shock to fire much slower. I'd rather have it do 35 damage with a primary and keep its fire rate. That would turn it into more of a combo weapon than hitscan, but it would still have a use close range.

#11 - That's just stupid.

#12 - Pixel hit detection would make it so that every character would have to use the same model. Either that, or everyone would use the same character, whichever one is smallest.

UnrealGrrl · Nov 30, 2005

Dark Pulse said:
1) Characters.

lets be honest. backstory is nice, but this is an FPS not an RPG. We dont need to know who mr. crows sister is... If we have to choose, i think characters should look good over having a lengthy background paragraph, but I would like BOTH.

2) Necris.
Whats wrong with blue hair? necris were my favorite UT player models. I didnt like the necris that were designed for ut2004, if anything, my feelingis the necris shouls be more like the Night mares (some of the best models for UT ever) with just a little more black lipstick and blue hair

3) Character Visibility.
Yes, definitely needs to be better, especially in team games, but i never thought it was so bad in 2kx

4) Character Scale.
Yes definitely needs fixing

5) Maps.
I dont think the maps "suck" and I think its a bit of a stretch to say everyone thinks they do. There are alot of good maps, fun maps and goodlooking maps in ut2004 (depending what gametypes you play) DM, CTF and ONS im talking... I'd like to see more competitive maps and more BIG well done maps, and i think we will see more maps the have 'got game' this time around from what we're hearing...

8) Weapon Balancing.
Lets not forget, UT was also hitscan dominant. Mini and Sniper ruled everyone. imnsho, ut2k4 is the best balanced UT of all in most areas, and except for shieldgun which is going away anyway.

9) Headshots.
im terrible at gettin 'em so no comment

10) Play Balancing.
UT game modes are pretty well balanced except for VCTF which i just dont get... i still dont think vehicles belong in CTF.

11) INI settings/Tweaking.
players who play low setting just to get a few extra frags or a leg up on you even though they have the latest greatest machines are, imho, missing the point, and somewhat of a llama...
but that said, play how you want, the more tweakable the game is, the better! dont force any settings and make more settings available to be tweaked and adjusted and make them easier to adjust for n00bies and experienced players alike.

Hopefully someone from Epic will see this and consider some of these points as well.
Epic rawks :tup:

T2A` · Nov 30, 2005

grrl said:
...ut2k4 is the best balanced UT of all in most areas except for shieldgun which is going away anyway...

That's one of, if not the only thing, that keeps UT2004 from being hilariously and pointlessly hitscan dominant. Without it, this game would be unplayable, at least on a more competitive level.

11) As far as this point goes, I forgot about making certain settings easier to access and some not accessible at all. Ex: Forcing models? Put it in the GUI. Rolloff? Don't let that be changed in the INI. Any such changes like that truly are cheap. I heard from the top TWL 1v1 player (he didn't specify it though) that there's even a rogue console command that puts blue boxes or something around players so you can see them even when they're invisible. Things like this definitely need to go.

ThirtySixBelow · Nov 30, 2005

Turns2Ashes said:
It's getting to the point that we're beating an unborn horse. Hard.

enough said

briach · Nov 30, 2005

I like the .ini and console for setting up my binds and maximizing my crappy system's performance. I also like the .ini for unlocking characters and etc. Some things shouldnt' be accessible GUI, but are better unofficially slipped in by the user.ini. Setting up specific and technical driver stuff should be put in the .ini not the GUI. If there are many character taunt animations, I'd prefer having it be left the way it is. I certainly don't want Epic holding back on extra content they made, just because it would be too hard to implement in GUI without causing too much clutter.

The deal with rolloff is some people can have that advantage just by getting a phat system. Phat system + rolloff == rolloff ; rollof + crap system == phat system

I don't use rolloff, because I often don't even play with any sound all together. Sound in ut2k4 is a funny thing. I think Epic should make information revealed by sound more consistent through the vast range of systems. .ini settings usually aren't as helpful as having a better system setup is. That being said I hate when people are able to hear everything even when they are on the other side of a wall. Hearing shields being picked up and such is cool and it should be better incorporated into the next ut, but it should be made so everyone is on the same level and there are no disadvantages. Being able to hear people around corners should be just as easy on every system or close to the same. The level designer should take sound into consideration. If he doesn't want to have players being able to hear players around a specific corner, they shouldn't be able to and if he wants people to be able hear the other around a corner than everyone should be able to hear eachother around a corner. It should be a part of the game and thoughtfully placed in the game. The current sound degrades gameplay, because everyone with the right settings can hear eachother's footsteps from across the map and there is less suspense and trickery.

Hearing weapon pickups and health pickups is a good thing and adds to the gameplay, but it should be equal for everyone. Sometimes players find themselves making decisions such as "should I pickup the health or walk around them to try suprising my enemy." Sometimes people throw a weapon and pick it up to fake them being in a weapon pickup location different than their current location. This is good stuff, but there needs to be a balance so there is still some suspense and uncertainity in the game.

.int files are very fun, please keep those

Leave little goodies like xweapons.int and etc for the community to stumble on and share with eachother. I've had lots of fun customizing my kill messages and such.

hal · Nov 30, 2005

1) MrCrow? No. :tdown: Other nightmares? Yeah, okay... they are pretty cool.

2) Necris. Agreed... more dead and less goth.

3) Character Visibility. yep.

4) Character Scale. right-on

5) Maps. More [ insert favorite gametyoe ] maps plzkthxbye.

6) Fall Damage. laffo... sounds good.

7) Poly Useage. makes sense

8) Weapon Balancing. lolol rapid-fire Shock Rifle!

9) Headshots. And more gore.

10) Play Balancing. Yes... play test demo please!!!!

11) No INI settings/Tweaking. That's... wrong. Shouldn't people be able to tweak their options WITHIN the GUI to give them maximum possible frames in any given situation? Should we REALLY be forced to the maximum possible eye-candy? And at what cost? 60 fps? 30? 20? 10? My only request is that level designers NOT design a map with potential cover that can be turned on and off. I would call those CRUCIAL details that should be universal. More advanced options within the GUI would be welcome.

Phopojijo · Nov 30, 2005

Dark Pulse said:
11) INI settings/Tweaking. I'm going to get flak for this from some of the community, I know. But I can't stand people who will have mega-powerful computers - Dual Core Processors, Dual GeForce 7800 GTXs, 2 Gigs of RAM... and then play with everything Off/Low/Minimal so they get hundereds of Frames Per Second. It's a waste of goddamn hardware. I'm a firm believer in playing with the stuff on if you can, so a small suggestion: Make some settings forced if your hardware passes a certain spec! A 7800 GTX will take almost no hit from Textures regardless of size, so force them to be at least Normal! A Athlon FX-57 should be able to play the game on damn near supreme settings, so if one of those is under the hood, don't let them turn everything off. Play with a sense of fairness if you're going to use that hardware! What happened to the days of "As long as it's over 30 FPS?" Oh wait, I know what happened: They went out the window, thanks to that pro attitude of "Win at all costs." You can bet I'm going to upgrade my system to run the stuff on High - and then you can bet I'm going to TURN it to High. Give my computer a workout, my eyes a treat, and my sense of realism shattered. Not Muddy Textures, no details, and crap visuals. If you want that, go back to Doom 1/2 or Quake 1/2.

I have a few issues with this post, though I'll start with the bolded -- that doesn't work. You need to be able to lower your specs at times for various reasons:

Multitasking
Mod Authoring
Damaged components
etc.

And another thing -- who cares? If they don't bitch about their graphics they can do whatever they want with the hardware.

briach · Nov 30, 2005

I heard ut2k4 was a walk in the park for hackers compared to ut99, ofcourse it is a lot larger than ut99, but I'm not sure how much larger the code would be if you didn't include all the artist content. There are too many loopholes for antihack mutator authors to keep up with. It would be nice if the next ut was a little harder to wallhack, aimbot, etc.

#11 It would be nice if Epic made it so people can experience high detail settings on a public server without knowing they are at a disadvantage to other players.

A good way to do this is include a mutator that allows admins to force certain detail settings on the clients. Ofcourse, it should ask the clients if they are willing to run their game at the given settings before they load the level at the high detail settings of the server.

This way everyone is treated equally without hardware prejudice. :lol:

UnrealGrrl · Nov 30, 2005

Turns2Ashes said:
That's one of, if not the only thing, that keeps UT2004 from being hilariously and pointlessly hitscan dominant. Without it, this game would be unplayable, at least on a more competitive level.

I was talking about CTF in this case (wrote the reply quick and didnt clarify) sorry. shieldgun in CTF is unbalancing.

11) As far as this point goes, I forgot about making certain settings easier to access and some not accessible at all. Ex: Forcing models? Put it in the GUI.

as for forcing models: only if you can pick which models you force (from all models pls this time) and only if you then are forced to use that model too.

and as for eyecandy in maps. Hals point is the BEST. Pls dont let mappers make obstacles or foliage etc. thats supposed to be used for cover be able to be turned on/off. its either there or its not...

nuttella · Nov 30, 2005

People have to be able to cut details, since it's always possible for a given system to underperform for various reasons. But make sure that cutting details for the sake of framerate doesn't give people who do it stupid advantages over those who don't. I've disabled foliage in 2k4 and found a nice performance improvement, but it still feels like I've checked the "Wall hax" box. If there's something on a map that would block your view, changing a detail setting should not unblock your view!

briach · Nov 30, 2005

I was talking about CTF in this case (wrote the reply quick and didnt clarify) sorry. shieldgun in CTF is unbalancing

Shieldgun allows the fc to cover wideopen areas faster, which minimizes the effectiveness of hitscan. Shieldgun also makes it harder for someone to use hitscan on the FC moreso then make it harder to use projectiles on the FC. The only thing that needs to be fixed to make ctf less hitscan dominant is unnerf the xloc so people can go faster than an fc with shieldgun. It's the xloc's fault, not the shieldgun.

All this googooba about being able to disable foliage shouldn't be directed at the option in the game, but it should be directed at the mappers, because they can put in foliage that isn't disableable, but they chose to put the foliage in so you would be able to disable it in mp.

T2A` · Dec 1, 2005

There's a difference between terrain foliage that is painted on the terrain much in the way textures are and static mesh grass or whatever placed around the map. For one thing, foliage is slow. It takes upwards of 2-3ms (on my computer anyway; your mileage may vary) per frame to render since it has to calculate how much of it should be in view, make the stuff further away get transparent, etc. 2-3ms on each frame render is a noticeable hit to take. Say you're getting ~67 FPS. That translates to roughly ~15ms per frame render. Say you turn off foliage and that drops to ~13ms. Now you're getting ~77 FPS. I'm sure weather effects are the same way (as far as slowness to render goes), though I haven't bothered to check how long they take to render on my computer.

I do agree wholeheartedly that it's the mapper's fault for having foliage act as a possible cover for those who have it turned on. It's supposed to be nothing but a decoration, not a part of the gameplay. If you want grass to affect gameplay it should be static meshes that are set to render even if people use low world detail. That way they'll always be there no matter the player's setup.

hal · Dec 1, 2005

Sorry briach, but you're wrong about the SG not unbalancing CTF. I hear your argument about DM loud and clear, but CTF is a whole different animal.

To return to the high/low detail debate for a second... I wouldn't mind a forced detail so much as long as the game could just make sure that I get at least 70 fps before adding any more detail, thanks.

briach · Dec 1, 2005

Give me an example of where it makes the game more hitscan dominant

Without the shieldgun I can gaurantee ctf would be all hitscan, unless you think spamming high rof projectiles at a pickup, such as a flag pickup, because you're(not you personally) too lazy to put your xhair on top of it and wait for someone to walk under it then fire hitscan qualifies as fun use of projectile weapons. I actually see that use of projectiles weapons being worse than hitscan. The shieldgun and xloc make the game more about shooting at players and not shooting chokepoints or pickups.

The_Head · Dec 1, 2005

At the moment I'm quite happy to leave epic to get along with what they are doing.

I hope there are better options for graphics set up in this game though. Having to search through all the ini files to turn on Anti Aliasing in UT was a pain in the ass.

As faar as forcing people with good systems to play with high settings, thats biassed against the people who decide to pay for a better game to give them an advantage.

If you have a problem with people having an advantage due to a better computer go play on your Xbox or Playstation.....

Sir_Brizz · Dec 1, 2005

Turns2Ashes said:
There's a difference between terrain foliage that is painted on the terrain much in the way textures are and static mesh grass or whatever placed around the map. For one thing, foliage is slow. It takes upwards of 2-3ms (on my computer anyway; your mileage may vary) per frame to render since it has to calculate how much of it should be in view, make the stuff further away get transparent, etc. 2-3ms on each frame render is a noticeable hit to take. Say you're getting ~67 FPS. That translates to roughly ~15ms per frame render. Say you turn off foliage and that drops to ~13ms. Now you're getting ~77 FPS. I'm sure weather effects are the same way (as far as slowness to render goes), though I haven't bothered to check how long they take to render on my computer.

I do agree wholeheartedly that it's the mapper's fault for having foliage act as a possible cover for those who have it turned on. It's supposed to be nothing but a decoration, not a part of the gameplay. If you want grass to affect gameplay it should be static meshes that are set to render even if people use low world detail. That way they'll always be there no matter the player's setup.

Considering that UT2007 will use SpeedTree, though, this could mean letting people disable alot of foliage that makes up parts of the map itself...

NeoNite · Dec 1, 2005

Necris with blue hair?
That's new, does UT2004 have such necris. Afaik UT's necris have black hair.

Just a tiny detail I've spotted, do continue the serious discussion about foliage and hitscan.

ThirtySixBelow · Dec 1, 2005

Sir_Brizz said:
Considering that UT2007 will use SpeedTree, though, this could mean letting people disable alot of foliage that makes up parts of the map itself...

You won't be able to remove important things like trees unless they are not barriers and allow people to walk through them in the first place. This isn't a war game anyway, who hides in the grass in a futurisitc fast paced shooter. If you think removing grass is an advantage because the other person can see you hiding in knee high foliage, then you need to stop camping in transparent removable objects and get into some combat. It shouldn't get to the point where you can remove true cover like boxes and such because otherwise there will be invisible barriers everywhere where the cover should be, and i don't think they are dumb enough to do something like that. Grass is grass, you shouldn't be hiding in it. The only map where I can see the advantage is killbilly barn where the crap is almost over your head. There is no problems with this anywhere else to my knowledge. Saying you have a disadvantage in something like torlan because you have your details up is just stupid. You only have a disadvantage beacuse i'm getting 85fps and my game is smooth and you are getting a varying 50fps, not because of the grass. Life isn't fair, and video games will not be either. Unless you are playing for money in the CPL and everything needs to be even, then just have fun and quit camping. Nothing is fair.

Sir_Brizz · Dec 1, 2005

ThirtySixBelow said:
You won't be able to remove important things like trees unless they are not barriers and allow people to walk through them in the first place. This isn't a war game anyway, who hides in the grass in a futurisitc fast paced shooter. If you think removing grass is an advantage because the other person can see you hiding in knee high foliage, then you need to stop camping in transparent removable objects and get into some combat. It shouldn't get to the point where you can remove true cover like boxes and such because otherwise there will be invisible barriers everywhere where the cover should be, and i don't think they are dumb enough to do something like that. Grass is grass, you shouldn't be hiding in it. The only map where I can see the advantage is killbilly barn where the crap is almost over your head. There is no problems with this anywhere else to my knowledge. Saying you have a disadvantage in something like torlan because you have your details up is just stupid. You only have a disadvantage beacuse i'm getting 85fps and my game is smooth and you are getting a varying 50fps, not because of the grass. Life isn't fair, and video games will not be either. Unless you are playing for money in the CPL and everything needs to be even, then just have fun and quit camping. Nothing is fair.

Personally, I think any game should have a certain level of strategy aside from run and shoot, which is also why I don't like the idea of brightskins. If you can't see a skin, you probably shouldn't be able to.

On the other side of it, there should be no gay (hardly lit) models in 2k7 like Matrix, or baby Jesus will begin to cry.

UT2007: 11 Things Epic needs to do right.

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