Should Epic repeat the 2k3 -> 2k4 history again to save UT3?

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Mircea

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Feb 25, 2008
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Well anyway... do you think we should probably take this to Epic and ask them about it directly and still try to convince them in the end? I really don't think Ut3 has a chance to make most of the players happy otherwise, so we can probably hope they listen to their fans at least for their commercial needs if they don't care about the players theirselves.

Not sure what engine UT4 is scheduled on, as if it is the same Unreal 3 engine it's all good and this will be done either way. Don't see anything else they could do on a newer UT engine however... they implemented most of what they could on today's technology in the Unreal 3 one. Just wanna see a good UT3-engine game, with everything the people want in it.
 

Mircea

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If Epic made the older UTs as good as they did it means they can do it again. Now I'm curious about where exactly we should try to contact them about it... the UT forums is the best place I can think of. Do Epic come out for contact with the public in other places too however? Such as having a team email, chat meetings, etc.

And I'll probably put a new av soon sometime since I like changing them from time to time, though personally I find it just cute :) (that's just a candy-cane in my av btw)
 

GeckoYamori

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Both 2K3 and UT3 seems to take some kind of "less is more" approach, and gambling by removing old but popular gamemodes in favor of new ones that people might not even like.
 

Grobut

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Both 2K3 and UT3 seems to take some kind of "less is more" approach, and gambling by removing old but popular gamemodes in favor of new ones that people might not even like.

I'd say the real problem is that Epic doesen't just view the UT series as games, but as playable tech demo's and test beds for their new engines, and thus, when they have a new engine out, they will also pump out an UT game as quickly as possible, and often at the cost of polish and content.

It's a release strategy i am not a fan of, because it does not do the fanbase of the UT series any favours, since the new version of the game will have shotcomings, alot of players wont migrate to the new game splitting the community, and generating alot of animosity as many players feel the new game is not a worthy succesor.
I wish they would treat the series more as a game, and less as a tech demo, and take the time it requires to make it really good, to make it ship with all the game-modes, options and content we would expect, so the whole community has good reason to move to the new game.

I really think they are going to sub the franchise if they keep going like this, 2K3 was a huge letdown to people and alot of players gave up on the UT series back then, and have never returned, 2k4 was a bandaid on the wound to its most lyoal fanbase, but alot of people refused to buy it as they felt they where getting duped into buying the same game twice, so it was not an unmittigated success, UT3 seems to be doing the same all over again, only worse this time, as Epic has now made it an obvious pattern, and people are just not going to buy UT games if they think each new version is just going to get more and more watered down (but with nicer graphics), and they will allways have to pay for it twice to get the full game.
Only a very small but loyal fanbase will stick with it then, but that just won't be enough people to make it profitable for Epic (or a succesfull online game for that matter), and they will probably move on.
 

WHIPperSNAPper

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If Epic made the older UTs as good as they did it means they can do it again.

Oh, I'm certain they have the ability to do it. The issue is whether they have the desire to make a real UT99-2.

Now I'm curious about where exactly we should try to contact them about it... the UT forums is the best place I can think of. Do Epic come out for contact with the public in other places too however? Such as having a team email, chat meetings, etc.

Does Epic even want to be contacted? Epic has already received more than two earfuls of complaints about UT3 and they've heard from people telling them how much they enjoyed UT99 and UT 2004 while they disliked UT3. In fact, if you start up a thread at their forums about what's wrong with UT3 or how the next UT could be improved so that it's better than UT3 your post will probably get locked and it's possible that you could get banned. (Heck, supposedly people have been banned for comments they posted on other forums, but perhaps that's just an urban myth.) That should give you some indication of how much Epic wants to hear from you about how the next UT could be an improvement over UT3. What does that suggest about their desire to make a UT that would be as fun and compelling as UT99.

I'd like to see a UT4 that had almost the exact same game play and feel as UT99--the tried and true, most successful original UT--with the game modes of UT 2004--DM, CTF, UT99 DOM, Bombing Run, no-impact-hammer or weapons boost Assault, Invasion-RPG, and most importantly, Onslaught combined with an exceptional user interface and server browser along with a nice, built-in IRC browser.
 
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Leo(T.C.K.)

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Never again the history should repeat like that. If another UT, then planned as a full game from beginning not as a fast mixed bag of originally community projects and stuff, that's it.
 

Mircea

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In fact, if you start up a thread at their forums about what's wrong with UT3 or how the next UT could be improved so that it's better than UT3 your post will probably get locked and it's possible that you could get banned. (Heck, supposedly people have been banned for comments they posted on other forums, but perhaps that's just an urban myth.) That should give you some indication of how much Epic wants to hear from you about how the next UT could be an improvement over UT3. What does that suggest about their desire to make a UT that would be as fun and compelling as UT99.

Wow, their ignorance is bigger then I thought in that case. Then again I'm not surprised... I was banned from the Atari forums only because I asked about a bug I was having with one of their games which could have had the biggest probability to be happening because my copy was using a crack :p But yeah I agree many official forums are moderated very badly these days.

Anyway my plan wouldn't be going there to complain about UT3 being bad, but just to propose them the idea of making another UT on the Unreal 3 engine in the next few months / year. Or not propose since they most likely thought about it, but discuss the idea and let them know some people do find that a good plan and wish for it.
 

WarTourist

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Now I'm curious about where exactly we should try to contact them about it... the UT forums is the best place I can think of.

Yep, but we also visit all the fan forums. For modding and server operator specific issues we have 2 mailing lists available. And of course you can always contact me directly at jeff@epicgames.com.
 

Bersy

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My thought is that if Epic has any interest in continuing the UT franchise, they should keep council with some people in the community who have a thorough understanding of the series and how to strengthen it.. both in terms of bringing back some coherence to it design & storywise, as well as attracting a new player base. Epic obviously knows how to make games, but UT is a special thing with a history that dates back nearly to the beginning of true 3d first person shooters. So it means many things to many people. I am sure it does to Epic too, yet true greatness in any UT since the first has managed to elude them. I think that is because they know it primarily from a developer perspective that includes a lot of gameplay and character/level design philosophy, but lack a focused outside perspective.

The feedback they do get from the community gives them a lot of mixed messages. Which is obviously frustrating.

Here is an outline of what I think are the biggest issues which need to be addressed and would be seen as a "return to form" for Unreal Tournament.

1. Focus on the Tournament, not a war. Warfare was a good idea, with a poor story behind it. The necris could have been brought in, the vehicles introduced etc with a story that was more based on rivalries, factions being like gangs and so forth. UT was always more cyberpunk than "War of The Worlds". Pretend the stories of the last 3 games never happened. Start fresh from UT1 and rebuild a consistent story based on prisoners becoming fighters and it being broadcast, Xan, The Necris, the REAL cyborgs, and the Skaarj Hybrids. Other characters and races have come and gone and each have their fans. You WILL experience a few complaints if X character or Y race is not in the game. That is not what matters, what matters is that you are being true to what made UT the success it was originally, nothing else since then really matters because none of the games that followed were very popular. Some will argue that's only because "sci-fi isn't in anymore". I beg to differ.. it is a huge niche and a good game in that niche would be no less successful.

2. Don't throw away features, however small, that added to the identity and experience of UT. Sure, too much exploiting is a bad thing. But the ability to figure out tricks and learn complex moves is also what made it fun. Now we can't even dodge up ramps anymore. Sure, UT was more "grounded" but at the same time, it allowed for some pretty "Unreal" movement. I am starting to think that a lot of what gave the game so much replay value and fond memories for people, are things that the developers considered bugs that were never originally intended to be there.

3. Give us a UT game, not an engine demo with the name UT on it. Here is something I personally believe is very important when it comes to the design of a game such as UT. Visibility is of paramount importance. We don't want clutter, we don't care how "gritty and lived in" it looks. We don't want shades of brown, and pink decor when a base is supposed to be the RED team's. Of course, I am not saying don't use effects, just show some restraint with them. Look at Mass Effect, it used UE3, it's a space based game, it has customizeable characters, and ironically, I think it did certain things much more like UT should be than UT3 did...

4. UT has always been a PC gamer's game.. so design it like one. If you're going to say things like "they're our bread and butter" then don't insult us. It is never going to be the success for consoles that it has been on the PC, let alone a bigger one. PC gaming is not dying, nor will it. Smart companies like Valve are showing they believe this.. I like to believe Epic is smart enough to do the same.. There is a lot of bs moaning about piracy these days, but there are ways around this. And dollar signs should not be all that matter on the short term, because by looking at strategies to instead increase online player counts, it will create more income on the long term. Anyway, unless you are going to crossplatform the PS3/PC versions, which I personally think would be a great opportunity also... Just give us a new game for PC only, with a UI that configures all the settings we expect, proper command features, voice/ignore etc, a good HUD and scoreboard.. stuff like being able to hip thrust instead of performing a random taunt wouldn't hurt either.

5. Warfare is not ONS + AS, it is a bad replica of ONS with an orb. It is not (as) fun (as it should be). Warfare should incorporate unique objectives as originally described. It should not always need cores or an orb, but any combination of the above with AS, or even pure AS. Another thing is that the vehicle handling and some of the vehicles themselves are terrible now. The hellbender is the biggest example, it handles like a toilet car. I would go into more specific issues if I were not aware certain people would begin refuting it here, and I am not interested in having that sort of argument. The gist of it is, ONS and AS are the only things that kept UT2004 afloat as long as it did, and you destroyed them both in favor of something that isn't what you promised it should have been, or even as fun as either ONS or AS were.
 
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Leo(T.C.K.)

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I doubt of some of the "people in the community who have a thorough understanding of the series"
:p
Warfare is fun, the orb makes the game better, for assault, ons and xmp gametype there was meant to be conquest but it was dropped AFAIK.
 

Bersy

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I just looked at the thread you made defending UT3. http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=178487

There's nothing wrong with seeing UT3 as a great game, in many ways it is. But I do know that you do not see eye to eye with the vast majority of the community. The stuff in the campaign may be done tongue in cheek but it was still in bad taste. I don't mind when people find things to like about newer UT games, there are many things I like about each one myself. What I do mind is when those same people try to discredit those who present a balanced view simply because they hit a nerve with a particular issue, ie Warfare not being fun. So you didn't like UT2004. However the numbers and publicity speak for themselves. ONS was a hit. Warfare isn't. UT2004 lasted. UT2003 didn't. UT1 still did it the best. On one hand, it's about what came first setting the bar. You've got to preserve the things that made it work. On the other, it's about finding ways to build on that, innovate, and keep people coming back to the series. That is what I am trying to express. Things can be fun or funny in one context but still miss the boat completely.. You do understand that right?
 

Leo(T.C.K.)

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I do undersatnd, but yeah you got it right, I am not eye to eye with the majority of this community.
And yeah, numbers, but I think I stated it previously that numbers have for me very little to do with game quality at all and there can be hidden quality that some people are not able to see and perceive it.

See games like Halo. They had a lot of marketting success, but the game is rather noobish from what I've seen or full of ripoffs, they even couldn't decide first if to make RTS game or something else. And yet majority love that game. That's my point.
 

Bersy

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Leo: Fair enough. But Unreal has always been a niche, a cult classic if you will. You can't mutate a cult classic into new and barely recognizeable forms and expect it to survive. A niche of a niche. Especially when it becomes a parody of itself. The current incarnation is exactly that.
 

G.Lecter

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Yeah, there's ample proof of that. Also if I had to guess, Conquest was dropped because of a. time and b. console support. It was too hefty a gametype for it to be plausible on the PS3 and 360.
I don't think Conquest was dropped because of that, in fact Epic started designing for it and we saw several footage videos with stuff that never came into the final game... Conquest simply didn't go with the fast nature of the game [matches that last for several hours in a UT game? :con:]... and its strongest points were added to ONS, turning it into WAR... If they had run out of time all that work would not have been trown away...
I'd love to ever see a gametype that supports a huge ammount of players, though... :rolleyes: I think UT3.5 might be a success if it featured a brand new thing like that... A polished version of UT3 might not be worth paying again... :p
 

Mircea

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Feb 25, 2008
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Thank you for reading this, WarTourist if you are from the Epic games staff. Basically this is the main thing I wanted to request, that the history of 2k4 after 2k3 is done again for UT3, simply because the current UT3 lacks too many features for any patch to be able to return them all. You've done some pretty good UT's in the past and I know that you can make a small effort to do it again for the Unreal 3 engine too, if you want to :)
 

Bersy

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WarTourist is Jeff Morris, the team lead for UT3.

G.Lecter: ONS & AS matches already last up to 2 hours in UT2004. What Conquest proposed was not longer matches, but matches in which the outcome would affect the way the next one plays. That was an exciting prospect because it would have made the game much more dynamic and unpredictable. Same with the ability to destroy terrain...
 
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