Ukraine
- Thread starter Luv_Studd
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The problem right now for Ukraine is that they pretty much have to choose between Russia and the EU. I myself don't like the EU, but between that and being a vassal to Russia, I'd choose the EU.
There was indeed a pre-agreement with the EU. However it was refused at last moment when Russia offered a better deal.
The result was spontaneous protests formed, coming from multiple sectors of the society, including the Neo-Nazis and some, let's say, "legitimate" nationalists/patriots. The EU, the US, IMF and the rest of our elites didn't like it either. These right wing groups were supported by Western cover intervention and reached power.
When you say "people want one thing", you mean the people you saw on our Western media. The people you didn't see, want the opposite. Ukraine is ethnically divided, for simplification, let's say half are pro-Europe, other half are pro-Russia.
Exactly. I saw that kind of stuff before and yes I saw evidence of people/youth being "nazified" and corrupted. There's lots of shit going on behind one's back, including brainwashing in certain factories for example in czech by asian car manifacturers who abuse low employment in the region and practically make some people slaves and force them to work like machines.
We are a democratic country that respects constitutional rights of it's citizens for freedom of speech and the right to gather freely without weapons for meetings, demonstrations and parades. Here's a couple of snippets from Russia's main news agency website:
See? People of Russia support the peace-keeping operation unanimously! State media said so, so this is how it is!
Parade in support of Ukrainian compatriots:
"MOSCOW, 2nd of March — Russian News Agency "News". Close to 27 000 took part in a parade in support of compatriots living in Ukraine that happened in the center of Moscow as reported by the media office of Moscow police HQ.
Head of Public People Front (political party) Andrey Bocharov, who took part in the event, stated that every citizen of Russia, who is "looking at the events in Ukraine with a sore heart" took part in it.
"There's a difficult situation. We gathered to support our brothers - people of Ukraine, regardless of their nationality, anyone who considers Russian language as their native", — said Bocharov. He went on to say that citizens of Ukraine right now believe only to Russia and russian president, they are sure that Russia will help them. Bocharov also added that other similar events are held at many other cities of Russian Federation. He said that they are attended by hundreds of thousands.
Chairman of all-russian political party 'Women's dialogue' Elena Semerikova said that the purpose of the meeting in Moscow is to display support to our brothers - people of Ukraine. "We are still the same nation", — stated Semerikova.
"Who asked the people of Ukraine if they want that? There are referendums, voting — more civilized methods. Our country must rally behind our president. All his moves, statements — they are rational moves", — said chairman."
Illegal public-peace-disturbing activity (poster says "War with Ukraine is madness"):
MOSCOW, 2nd of March — Russian News Agency "News". Moscow Police HQ media office announced through a press-release that close to 50 people were arrested in the Moscow center for disturbance of public order.
It was reported earlier that on Sunday a group of people gathered at Vozdvizhenka str. with the intentions of disturbing public peace, despite police demands to stop illegal activity.
See? People of Russia support the peace-keeping operation unanimously! State media said so, so this is how it is!
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Western media say Russia's preparing WW3 on a whim just for kicks. Russian state media say Russia's peacekeeping operation is needed and wanted by all sides. Just as usual. Russia's government has always been a bit scary.
And western media must be always automatically correct right? Have you been there? I haven't either. Therefore it's very possible most of this is fabricated bs. You are being led by your noses and unable to see through it.
This is starting to remind me "Tomorrow Never Dies" with that commercial media magnate wanting to stirr up WW3.
This is starting to remind me "Tomorrow Never Dies" with that commercial media magnate wanting to stirr up WW3.
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Well, here nobody knows too, except that the very top brass my have some vague idea of what's going to happen. This is the problem when everything's being decided by one man, who is rather unpredictable.
I despise western media and I never voiced any support for their argument or their view on this matter. I am firmly convinced they are at least equally as full of shit as the Russian ones, which I haven't read and thus can't judge. I have quite a deep historical and geopolitical knowledge on Eastern Europe and can reasonnably appreciate the situation. I specifically said in my previous post that both sides have completely opposite discourses, and deep down, I believe they are both pushing forward their own agendas, and none of them are right, not the Russian media, not the Wester media.. Your assumption on my opinion and my credulity are false on just about every point and I'd be glad if you didn't jump to the conclusion that I'm a brainwashed drone at the first occasion.
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My post wasn't referring to you actually. I was speaking to the "people" in general.
Note that I didn't actually quote you. When I quote someone I am responding directly to the person.
How was Russia's deal significantly better? Honestly what it looks like is Putin and Yanukovych (the top brass) colluding for their personal interests.
Please address how you believe a majority of the protesters are "neo-nazis" while including only "some" regular people? Were their neo-nazi slogans in the protests? Do the protesters have some ulterior motive other than wanting stronger ties to the EU? Or are they 'secretly working in the back', alongside those pesky United States mercenaries that Russian Bill O'Rielly claimed to exist.
For simplification lets make it half and half? What a convenient simplification. Lets look at the real breakdown;
Yellow: Ukrainians
Grey: Russians
Blue: Other
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#After_WWII)
Lets be real here. Putin has been consolidating his power through at-home nationalism, rhetoric, social laws and protest suppression. Ukraine defecting from the ole' soviet block would be a blow to Russian pride and insecurity. But Putin needs to look tall and strong and shirtless to his supporters, so a little regime change here and there is enough to rally his base. No different than Regan's and Bush's war ventures.
Honestly the idea that Russians will be greeted as saviors of forced Western submission in Ukraine is just as silly as Bush and Rumsfeld expecting the Iraqis to throw flowers at our feet when the US invaded in 2003.
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Well, 30% discount on nat gas, billions in loans and investment, so yes it was better than an IMF loan/austerity package.
No, first, you please address where did I claim that "a majority of the protesters are neo-nazis" and where did I mention "U.S. mercenaries".
What are you trying to show here? That the ethnic origin of people is related with the way they voted, or how they view foreign trade and cooperation? That all those Ukrainians are pro-EU ???For simplification lets make it half and half? What a convenient simplification. Lets look at the real breakdown;
Yellow: Ukrainians
Grey: Russians
Blue: Other
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#After_WWII)
Edit: ok, I get where the misunderstanding comes from, I was the one that said "Ukraine is ethnically divided" ... My bad on this one. The point still stands though.
Nowhere I said to know how crazy Putin is, or the psyche of the guy or claimed that invaders are saviors or whatever are you trying to imply. I don't post about what I don't know, and I didn't care much until now. On this particular point, neither do you. Those random feel good statements and neo-cold war style rhetoric based on one-sided news reports and the usual "us good vs them bad" do not add much to the discussion. I read from multiple news sources, if you base your opinion around CNN, that's fine, but I have nothing else to say then.
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Yes, soon people will be denying intervention existed or that even neo nazis exist. No they are just figment of those crazy east european imaginations for sure...
Benfica has a point here. Though I have no other where he comes from at least originally. But it seems he has better idea what's going on than most of you guys.
Benfica has a point here. Though I have no other where he comes from at least originally. But it seems he has better idea what's going on than most of you guys.
Can't we all just agree it's very complex and that nobody knows shit about what's actually going on beind the curtains?
He's a paranoid Reconquistador with a boatload of grudges
Have to say, you're the first person in a while to think that Benfica is talking sense.
He's Portuguese and has a pretty major chip on his shoulder about Islam in Europe. He also recently implied that he's pretty happy with the rise of the European Far Right. He also seriously dislikes northern Europeans, or "blondies" as he refers to us.
Have to say, you're the first person in a while to think that Benfica is talking sense.
He's Portuguese and has a pretty major chip on his shoulder about Islam in Europe. He also recently implied that he's pretty happy with the rise of the European Far Right. He also seriously dislikes northern Europeans, or "blondies" as he refers to us.
^^ The way you said "Portuguese" makes it sound like it's a synonym for crazy.
Benfica is a wingnut and that's that.
Benfica is a wingnut and that's that.
You are an hypocrite that started with many anti-Southern Europe rants in this forum. It is actually YOU that hate Southern Europeans, my "blondies" comment was ONCE and as a reply to your pompous garbage.
That said, if you have personal issues with me, start a thread to discuss them. If you disagree with what I post regarding Ukraine, then address the points.
The division is not based on who is ukrainian or russian but based on the language they speak.
The area that is russian speaking dominant is also considerably richer. That very same area is the area that will lose a lot when/if ukraine joins the EU.
Also the media manipulation by both the west and russia is amusing. Notice how they are once again are referring to the russo-georgian war despite Georgia clearly being the aggressor in that lil fight?
The area that is russian speaking dominant is also considerably richer. That very same area is the area that will lose a lot when/if ukraine joins the EU.
Also the media manipulation by both the west and russia is amusing. Notice how they are once again are referring to the russo-georgian war despite Georgia clearly being the aggressor in that lil fight?