The Shut The Fuck Up and Listen to Each Other Thread

cryptophreak said:

There have been a good number of religiously toned threads here, and none of them have really gone anywhere worth going. More recently I've noticed some recurring themes: Jacks, Firefly, and myself team up against Brizz and TWD while Vaskadar and Zxan chime in to say we should quit berating each other. The players shift around over time but the game remains the same.

We've been around this place long enough that we can't keep pretending it's just the principles we're interested in; we want to understand each other but haven't found a good way to do that.

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Who's pretending?

I propose one simple rule: No rebuttals or debate of any kind. Each person is allowed to ask a question to the other side about the personal, subjective (non-factual and non-objective) value of belief or nonbelief to another person, and then the asker shuts the fuck up and listens.

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So we all list our opinions and no-one comments or debates any points posted?
Where's the fun in that?

Let me start by asking my most burning questions, addressed to all though I really hope the six posters I named answer:

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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I can think freely and without barriers. I can live free from ancient and outdated superstitions.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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No. If there was I wouldn't being thinking the way I do. I would try to find ways to negate those disadvantages.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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Why would I do that? see the answer to the above point.

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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No. Again if I did, I wouldn't believe in the things that I do.

This was a pretty good idea crypto.

cryptophreak said:

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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I guess I am an agnostic theist; not quite an atheist, as I do think there is some kind of greater power in the universe than us. But unlike those who call it God, I like to think it is alien. That doesn't mean I think we should worship them, only that I think they exist. There are thousands of solar systems in the universe that are quite similar to ours; why couldn't there be something more intelligent than us out there?

Does it improve my life or is it detrimental? I don't know. It does make me feel more free, as if my choices as a human will play an infinitesmall part in the grand scheme of things, and as such I shouldn't be under too much pressure. I believe luck only has a small part to play in our day to day lives, and I don't believe in destiny at all; I think we make our own destiny. We will what we want into reality. Now if I could just figure out how to will FTL travel into reality, we could really get this existence going.

cryptophreak said:

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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Of course. I don't necessarily believe in any kind of afterlife, and as a result that makes death a very final and chilling idea. It really puts the idea that life is very short into perspective for me.

cryptophreak said:

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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I can't say. I guess I would be more concerned about death and what happens next as opposed to pleasing the whims of some deity.

cryptophreak said:

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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Of course. Life is full of doubt and uncertainty, and 7 billion people are currently trying to make sense of it all. I'm no better than them in this regard.

Haarg was right. Banning yourself is a good idea.

I'll throw in my input on this topic. Why not?

I am an Atheist. I was not brought up in a Religious household. I have gone to church a few times (even as recent as 5 months go), but Religion has never been able to convince me.

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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Simple, I doesn't. I am actually a very kind person, and I always try to have a positive outlook on life.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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No.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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Well, Sunday mornings would be occupied, but other than that, not much at all.

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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My position? As in what I believe? Of course I have. With so many beliefs out there, I've looked into some, but was never convinced.


I want to add a question.


Would you hold it against somebody if they didn't believe the same as you did, and would you ever try and convert anybody?

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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My religion has a very health centered message. I credit it with my quality of health. That and a very dedicated doctor who worked very hard to fix my plethora of health issues as a child and keep me from being a bubble boy. Beyond that I don't think they improve or degrade.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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The lifestyle gets some odd reactions from people.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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Hedonistic?

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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Yes, I have a very rational mind. I look for a scientifically rational explanation for everything. There is none that can explain some of my life. So it forces me to call into question my own sanity.

Would you hold it against somebody if they didn't believe the same as you did, and would you ever try and convert anybody?

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I could completely understand, I find some of what I believe rather hard to believe.

[*]How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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Having had a religious upbringing and now being an athiest, I believe I can see both sides of the fence. Truthfully, the difference in lifestyle, or the particulars of beliefs are really not all that different.
For me, not being religious, or having a faith (the 2 are fairly different notions) that involves believing in a God doesn't really improve my life in tangible ways, though I feel that my leanings have given me a more analytical/skeptic view.

[*]Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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Yes. For better or for worse, internally I have always considered religion/faith to be a mental crutch. It may very well not be the case for people who have faith, but personally to me it feels like tough things to deal with like death, questions about mortality, an afterlife, etc, all get railroaded by faith, because it provides the answer people want to hear. I can see being able to rely on that can be a great comfort in tough situations, and not having it can make things unpleasant from time to time.

[*]How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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I think I would probably be part of a church-going community if I switched sides. Church communities are, despite me not accepting the premise, good groups of people where you can make friends and share in common beliefs. Beyond that though, I don't think it would change my life all that much.

[*]Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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Of course, anyone with a rational mind will question their convictions from time to time. With my mom's side of the family being a church-going, faith-having bunch, there has been the very occasional conversation/debate about why believe versus why not believe. And they're good people. In fact, most of the people who have a theistic faith I know are wonderful people. That, if anything, has been the main reason I've questioned my own beliefs. Ultimately though, I simply do not believe without evidence, which makes believing in any form of theism pretty difficult.

Would you hold it against somebody if they didn't believe the same as you did, and would you ever try and convert anybody?

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Absolutely not. As far as I'm concerned people can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't impede on others freely believing whatever they want.

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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As an agnostic (I'm still figuring out whether or not I'm atheistic or deistic), I find that my life is probably better off than it was when I was dragged to church on Sundays by my religiously inclined mother's father. It has given me a perspective on things that is more observational than emotional, which enables me to think more rationally as a person. Granted, there are irrational things that I do say that are sometimes completely out of the blue, but for the most part, I'm happier knowing that human knowledge is limited.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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For one thing, living in such close proximity to the highly dogmatic people down here in South Florida has produced a strong aversion towards them, particularly baptists and born-again protestants, and any sort of fundamentalist, but I'm finding that it's their problem, not mine. They chose their ignorance. I do find that it's difficult to discuss religion down here without alienating most people. About 80% down here are of some sort of Christian denomination. So technically that puts me in the minority. Having previously lived in a far more secular region of the states (Maine and New Hampshire, mostly), I've found that people aren't as aggressive up there about their beliefs as they are down here. I think that there are certain social disadvantages, but that's not my concern.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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I've thought about it long and hard, and I don't think I could live with willful ignorance, previously having a science-based outlook on things, if you're referring to my polar opposite, the fundamentalist.

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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I can't say I have in years. What I have known most of my life is that I have a firm belief in the scientific method's reliability, and have doubted the fairy tales that theologians have tried to spoon-feed me in my childhood.

Though, I must say that I try my best to be observant of the facts and try to avoid being a dick to other people. I'd rather not incite conflict.

Ok, sure. I'm not sure if I really have a choice. I'd feel like a douche if I didn't.

cryptophreak said:

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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Absolutely I do. Believe turns into action. I would not have made the same decisions in my life if I had a different belief system. I would not have had the experiences I gained from a mission, I would not have married the same person I did, and there are countless other decisions I've made in my life that stem directly from my belief system. I'm very happy with the decisions I've made in my life.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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There are certainly things that I refrain from doing. Some would say that I am missing out or limiting myself. However, I believe things are completely the opposite. Holding myself to such standards have opened many doors that would not have been available to me otherwise. In this way my standards have actually made myself more free.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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Belief leads to action so of course my life would be different. There's no way to know what it would be like though. I can only say that I'm grateful I've taken the path I have.

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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Of course, everyone does. If you aren't constantly challenging yourself then you're not being completely honest with yourself either. I'm not sure how to quantify how seriously. Such doubts have certainly never led to a change in action.

Would you hold it against somebody if they didn't believe the same as you did, and would you ever try and convert anybody?

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My path in life isn't the right path for everybody, and I don't understand everything either. I don't need everyone else to believe the same way I do. However, I do want to provide everyone with the ability to hear the message. Those that are ready are usually show a real interest early on.

Al said:

Haarg was right. Banning yourself is a good idea.

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What, is he planning on suicide any time soon?

My burning question is how Jacks feels about his team selection...

cryptophreak said:

[*]How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

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It doesn't get in the way

cryptophreak said:

[*]Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

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I'm moderately less ignorant...

cryptophreak said:

[*]How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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I think it would be inherently better to know/believe you've got a good place to go no matter how you get there as long as you're well behaved.
There are advantages. It's naive to think otherwise.

cryptophreak said:

[*]Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

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Nope and quite...

How do you find your religious or nonreligious leanings improve your life?

It improves my life because I know what to expect in life and death. I'll be a decomposing mass of molecules and nothing more when I die and I have no idea why that bothers anyone in any way. I don't have nervous breakdowns when something goes bad because there isn't a god that has "a plan" that doesn't make any sense. I deal with it as it is, and it is simply random shit that happens that is out of my immediate control. I don't get depressed when someone dies and I don't have to pray for their safety because I know there is no guarantee of safety in life.

Do you think there are any disadvantages to your personal outlook?

I can't express myself. It's expected for me to accept people's belief in fairy tales, but I cannot disagree on shit that actually matters like how to raise my own future children without feeling the wrath of the grandparents who think religion = morals. I think morals shouldn't be taught with false rewards (like going to heaven and other BS), instead morals should be taught as how one should try to live just because it's beneficial to everyone involved.

How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

I'd feel immature and unable to cope with reality. This isn't a shot at people who believe in such things. I just cannot comprehend such thoughts. Some of the most intelligent scientific theories have been proven wrong even after years of strong evidence. How someone could follow any book (not just the bible, ALL of them) repeatedly proven to be written, horribly translated, rewritten over and over to suit needs of leaders, and all of that nonsense as a guide to existence is beyond my comprehension.

Have you ever doubted your position? How seriously?

No. It was illogical to me from the first Sunday school class I was forced to sit through.

If it were proven true, like if Jesus or the Mormon dude suddenly fell from the sky and shit, I'd literally have a nervous breakdown and lose all of my sanity. I think most of the religious people out there would too because I truly believe most do not really think any of this shit is real, but instead humans are social creatures that fall in line to avoid trouble with others and humans are incredibly self-serving and will buy into any snake oil that might save their ass.

Sorry Crypto.
Your thread has failed because no one can answer this question without making a stab at the alternative stance.

cryptophreak said:

[*]How do you think your life might be different if you "switched sides"?

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Eg1 said:

My life would be more stupid!

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Eg2 said:

I couldn't because I'm too awesome!

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Eg3 said:

I can't because actually understanding the question is too hard!

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Eg4 said:

Comprehending that if I switched sides I wouldn't actually have the same opinions is a conundrum only worth resolving by patronising the opposition!

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Eg5 said:

Understanding things is so hard even imagining understanding something is an impossibility!

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... Just saying.

I'm not rebutting anything i'm just criticising everyone.

Lol @ tag... I had a boss who used to call me Anakin because I can fix just about anything, operate pretty much any machinery with no training, and build all sorts of crap. I have never been able to build a working light saber though so I guess I'm no Jedi.

The really funny thing is I put that tag in the wrong thread. I put it up after reading your post about how you cheated death on a insane number of ways, but this is not the thread. Oh alcohol...