PC Gaming and Piracy: Examined

dragonfliet · Mar 5, 2010

Eh, it's well written for the most part (but resorts too often to rhetorically weak arguments in attempt to bolster a strong argument, which only weakens it. Oh well), and I agree with the final analysis, which is: pirates refuse to pay for games because they're selfish twats who don't want to pay and who use flimsy and erroneous excuses to forgive their antisocial behavior.

The only thing that was particularly interesting to me was the assertion that there are some 40-100 million gaming ready pcs (and yeah, an 8800gt still holds its own pretty well), which makes PC sales all the more galling (especially when one considers, for instance, the over 4 million pirated MW copies. Argh.

What blows me away is you, Jacks--who posted in the Ubi thread that you were going to pirate AC 2 because it used an annoying DRM scheme and you refused to either support that with money or go without as WELL as posting that you feel justified in "sharing" DLC-- laud this article as well written and essentially correct. Either you exist with an incredible tolerance to ironic hypocrisy or you have been doing some serious soul-searching on the matter in recent days.

~Jason

Benfica · Mar 5, 2010

dragonfliet said:
Either you exist with an incredible tolerance to ironic hypocrisy or you have been doing some serious soul-searching on the matter in recent days.

I suspect it's the 2nd and you don't really need days, but minutes to change your perspective somewhat, it happened to me when I read the article

Even then, it didn't invalidate what I think about the subject: there are unnaceptable DRM schemes, others are at least, let's say, very very hard to swallow. I mean, who expects to pay full price for a crippled product by design or malware out of the box? I see the game, I buy it, I expect no more than a game, let it be intrusive DRM, some "add-ons" like Punkbuster, unexpected hassle, no chance of returning it and get a refund, etc... Oh and btw, also the recent bs of holding back content on purpose to then release it as paid DLC.

Sjosz · Mar 5, 2010

The interesting thing for me, personally, is how people around me changed their opinion on the whole pirating deal when they realized they were essentially stealing other people's work. A game is so often not associated with actual people working on it that game piracy becomes abstract enough to not feel like a bad thing. That is, until you know someone who actually makes his/her living making games.
The same can be said about used games. I have a dislike for the likes of EBGames that sell used games, but I avoid getting games used as much as I can when I buy something I want to support.

Capt.Toilet · Mar 5, 2010

Sjosz said:
The same can be said about used games. I have a dislike for the likes of EBGames that sell used games, but I avoid getting games used as much as I can when I buy something I want to support.

Yeah because saving money is dumb.

Sjosz · Mar 5, 2010

Capt.Toilet said:
Yeah because saving money is dumb.

No, but supporting the people actually responsible for a product as opposed to the (middle-man) stores profiting completely and not passing on part of the earnings to the developer and publisher is more important to me than saving the 5-10 bucks they shave off the price.

Al · Mar 5, 2010

Sjosz said:
That is, until you know someone who actually makes his/her living making games.

:tup:

Zur · Mar 5, 2010

Sjosz said:
The interesting thing for me, personally, is how people around me changed their opinion on the whole pirating deal when they realized they were essentially stealing other people's work.

You know, if it weren't for the middle men, this alone would entirely dissuade me.

Sir_Brizz · Mar 5, 2010

Sjosz said:
No, but supporting the people actually responsible for a product as opposed to the (middle-man) stores profiting completely and not passing on part of the earnings to the developer and publisher is more important to me than saving the 5-10 bucks they shave off the price.

My opinion is that you simply don't save enough money by buying used games to justify not buying the game new in most cases. Usually at places like Gamestop you are only saving $5, which is a load of crap considering that they usually buy them back for less than half of the retail cost.

-Jes- · Mar 5, 2010

This is the time I look back at my very legit copy of World in Conflict, and look at the very legit key for Sins of a Solar Empire in my mail from Stardock, and feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

d3tox · Mar 5, 2010

I actually read this this morning. I gave it some good thought but hated his example of World of Goo. WTF is World of Goo? I'll tell you what it is: The kind of title I would only hear about if I actually (still) pirated games. I buy LESS now that I don't pirate, because I'm not open to spending money on a game I don't know is worth it, so I tend to stick to brands I know, and trying those games that offer mp demos etc.

Anyway, it gave me a little perspective to think about, but there are a couple of things that bug me about this article also:

1) According to this article, Blizzard is a complete anomally, a dev that doesnt focus on consoles first, with PC second in mind. Why not take a look at them? Surely their business models can shed some light on this.

2) Also, in spots its mentioned that PC sales #'s aren't what they used to be. Are those "used to be #'s" taken before or after the advent of MMO's? (Seriously, I think that gets overlooked way too often). There was a day when Q3, UT and CS where the kings, and then that EQ game showed up, and SP & MP games havent been the same since. (Just my opinion. Debate away.)

And one more thing going on right now:

As right now EA has a little storm on their hands with the BC2 launch. Lots of people getting booted/disconnected/freezing up/lockups all the way up to BSOD. Ea's reasoning for this? OVERWHELMING DEMAND. A post on Ea's message boards in the UK today (by one of Dice's people) indicated there where more PC gamers online with the game than both consoles combined. That still tells me if you make a game PEOPLE WANT, and it is a good VALUE for what you're charging for it, people will buy it.

Benfica · Mar 5, 2010

Sjosz said:
No, but supporting the people actually responsible for a product as opposed to the (middle-man) stores profiting completely and not passing on part of the earnings to the developer and publisher is more important to me than saving the 5-10 bucks they shave off the price.

Here, in all honesty, that's probably one of the situations that don't cause a very visible net loss. It's not a matter of saving 10€, often it's half the price after a few weeks. Point is, who buys used is willing to pay and would choose new if they weren't so expensive. Instead the game is torrented and stick with whatever the cracked version allows, bought on sales, buy an used game that is still full-featured with hardcover, manual, unrestricted online, etc... or just move on.

-Jes- · Mar 5, 2010

And now that I've mellowed out..

Is it just me, or is the article in general as vague in it's "evidence" as the 'anti-drm' sites it's trying to counter in the latter pages?

Also, I like how they merrily forget to mention that most drm-less games usually sell more legits per torrent than any of the recent 'big drm' games, only citing the early-release torrent number of ONE drm-less game to prove their point - when in their own goddamn 'suggestions' they put in 'demos', something more than just 5 people use torrents AS.

I guess it's never possible to get an article that tries to be as unbiased as possible, or tries at least to admit it's bias.

But it could've been worse, like those bland hardliner tripefests that we've seen publishers throw around in the past. At least this one doesn't stray too far from it's valid points.

You gotta wonder if these people ever heard of Stardock.

dragonfliet · Mar 5, 2010

d3tox said:
I actually read this this morning. I gave it some good thought but hated his example of World of Goo. WTF is World of Goo? I'll tell you what it is: The kind of title I would only hear about if I actually (still) pirated games. I buy LESS now that I don't pirate, because I'm not open to spending money on a game I don't know is worth it, so I tend to stick to brands I know, and trying those games that offer mp demos etc.

Anyway, it gave me a little perspective to think about, but there are a couple of things that bug me about this article also:

1) According to this article, Blizzard is a complete anomally, a dev that doesnt focus on consoles first, with PC second in mind. Why not take a look at them? Surely their business models can shed some light on this.

2) Also, in spots its mentioned that PC sales #'s aren't what they used to be. Are those "used to be #'s" taken before or after the advent of MMO's? (Seriously, I think that gets overlooked way too often). There was a day when Q3, UT and CS where the kings, and then that EQ game showed up, and SP & MP games havent been the same since. (Just my opinion. Debate away.)

And one more thing going on right now:

As right now EA has a little storm on their hands with the BC2 launch. Lots of people getting booted/disconnected/freezing up/lockups all the way up to BSOD. Ea's reasoning for this? OVERWHELMING DEMAND. A post on Ea's message boards in the UK today (by one of Dice's people) indicated there where more PC gamers online with the game than both consoles combined. That still tells me if you make a game PEOPLE WANT, and it is a good VALUE for what you're charging for it, people will buy it.

A few responses to your posts: World of Goo does have a demo, was talked up by the press, etc. That you didn't know about it has nothing to do with you pirating games as what is the correlation there? While I (and the author) agree that more games need demos, it's almost always a bad excuse.

1) Blizzard hasn't had a game since WoW. I mean, other than that, their last game was Warcraft 3 in 2002 and its expansion.

2) The sales #'s are what they used to be AND 1/5 of money comes ENTIRELY from WoW.

As for BC2-- do you REALLY think that the PC version of BC2 sold more than both consoles combined? Oh wait, there's a similar example to this with Demigod where of 120,000 people connecting, only 18,000 were legit owners of the game. So yeah, right now, BC2 is crashing/kicking people directly because of piracy. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong with BC2 PC outselling BOTH 360 and PS3 but the odds are it won't even sell as much as a single console and you're seeing the hurt that pirates put on both the company (by not buying the game, forcing them to get more servers than needed for legit copies, ruining reputation a little bit because they weren't prepared for more people than who bought it) as well as the people who bought the game (by getting booted, etc.).

~Jason

SkaarjMaster · Mar 5, 2010

Still, I agree, WTF is World of Goo?

It was slow at work today, so I read the article and it pointed out some interesting things that I never really thought about. I've pirated games in the past, but it's been a long time since I did that; remember Bleem!? The article is well written and I respect the author for his views as well as his tweak guides. Remember though, he said it was not stealing.

Angel_Mapper · Mar 5, 2010

Quit being douchebags and buy your games. I make my living off of this too and I just want to smack everyone here that talks about games they've pirated. :stick:

Sjosz · Mar 5, 2010

Benfica said:
Here, in all honesty, that's probably one of the situations that don't cause a very visible net loss. It's not a matter of saving 10€, often it's half the price after a few weeks. Point is, who buys used is willing to pay and would choose new if they weren't so expensive. Instead the game is torrented and stick with whatever the cracked version allows, bought on sales, buy an used game that is still full-featured with hardcover, manual, unrestricted online, etc... or just move on.

The difference is that I'm an informed customer whereas a lot of people are not with regards to what the difference is when buying new or used beside the difference in price point. A lot of people will buy games used not thinking twice about what happens with that money. It may not be a net loss or gain for the developers in the big picture, or worse or better for my wallet, but in a way I'm helping the industry I work in.

dragonfliet · Mar 5, 2010

-Jes- said:
Also, I like how they merrily forget to mention that most drm-less games usually sell more legits per torrent than any of the recent 'big drm' games, only citing the early-release torrent number of ONE drm-less game to prove their point - when in their own goddamn 'suggestions' they put in 'demos', something more than just 5 people use torrents AS.

...

You gotta wonder if these people ever heard of Stardock.

he mentions 3 (Assassin's Creed, COD4 and Crysis) from the top 10. Also, where are you getting that no DRM=more sales per torrent comment from? Does that counteract the suggestion he's putting forth that more popular=more torrents (which holds up pretty darned well)? Because if you list a handful of games no one is particularly interested in and hold up Sims 3 on the other hand, sure.

As for Stardock, he talks about them extensively, expecially how Demigod (which received great reviews EXCEPT that the network was awful, which hamstrung the reviews to hell) was shot to hell as the network was deluged with 6x as many pirated copies as legit ones and couldn't keep up (having prepared for legit customers)

~Jason

BITE_ME · Mar 5, 2010

No more used books-let all students pay full price.

No more used homes-The buiders need the money.

No more used cars-Every American should be making a car payment.

No more used anythig.

I Like buying used. It's called recycling.

Just look at my sig

Jacks:Revenge · Mar 5, 2010

dragonfliet said:
pirates refuse to pay for games because they're selfish twats who don't want to pay and who use flimsy and erroneous excuses to forgive their antisocial behavior.

I don't think that was the most important part of the conclusion, as much as it was included for the explicit purpose of stating the obvious.

I think the important part, and bigger picture, is the way in which the entire pirating community is an ironic mess. the providers (people that host and run servers, share content etc) claim that piracy is liken to that of the DIY ethic and that in committing piracy you are fighting the fascist, money-hungry conglomerates who are trying to screw you.

in reality, there is money to be made in piracy, it doesn't just fund itself, and some of the larger distributors are raking in their own healthy profits while preaching about the opposite.

also, should this cycle continue, there will be notable consequences for PC gaming.
PC gaming is not "dying" as so many like to proclaim.
the problem is that it's not thriving.
it's dumbing down. it's getting prettier, but it's losing depth and ingenuity.

I think the implications of the worst-case-scenario that he discusses are pretty interesting. about how we could see the end of complex singleplayer games on PC; where the market turns toward simple multiplayer games that are cheap to make, easy to produce, and distributed on a pay-per-play basis or similar to MMO's.

What blows me away is you, Jacks--Either you exist with an incredible tolerance to ironic hypocrisy or you have been doing some serious soul-searching on the matter in recent days.

sh*t. you got me Sherlock.
lol, does it really "blow you away?" glad someone is entertained.

look just because I've been a pirate, this means I can't recognize a decent journalistic attempt at analyzing the piracy issue?

yeah, I laud the article, and I've downloaded a game before.
wanna' fight about it?

ok for serious, I'm just being realistic here.
if I'm going to copy a game instead of buy it, it's merely for the purposes of "renting" it. and this happens maybe once every couple months. I have no way to prove this to you, but I never keep downloaded games after trying them. those I like, I always pay for. the rest are discarded. and I do not share anything.

I only suck on those pirate titties, I don't feed them.

and I like to have hard copies of stuff anyway, I never use Steam or digital download clients.

as for the charges you levied against me, they fall on deaf ears. trading DLC is moot. as for AC2, if I end up downloading and keeping it, that will actually be the first time I've done so with any game. and the decision to do so will only have been made because of this particularly cruel form of DRM; the whole constant-internet-connection-even-for-singleplayer thing.
complete bullsh*t, won't put up with it, but I'm going to play the game if it's possible.
I've already bought it for PS3 so hey someone got paid.

when it comes to this matter, I'll live as ironically as I want to. it doesn't keep me up at night.

-Jes- · Mar 5, 2010

Angel_Mapper said:
Quit being douchebags and buy your games.

I do. I just find the amount of drmless games available for sale to be incredibly LOW these past 5 years, which is why my SDC/Impulse and Steam game lists have grown quite a bit in the recent years. And as for boxed games, in the past 9 months I've taken to Amazon's UK page, since they usually offer me a better price than local store and steam, and that's AFTER shipping and toll!

dragonfliet said:
where are you getting that no DRM=more sales per torrent comment from?

Ask and you shall recieve:

Article: said:
Not only does gaming history show that unprotected games simply lead to more piracy

dragonfliet said:
As for Stardock, he talks about them extensively

Yes, because citing a MEDIOCRE game from GPG failing having anything to with Stardock and their lax DRM methods is any form of proof.

Article said:
Demigod is widely considered to be a good game

dragonfliet said:
expecially how Demigod (which received great reviews--

Wiki with verifiable links: said:
Reviews for Demigod have been highly varied. The ratings aggregator Metacritic currently reports an overall score of 76, reflecting scores from constituent rating sites ranging from as low as 50 to as high as 92

If they wanted to provide a fair case, maybe they should've talked a bit more about Stardock's games that are ACTUALLY being praised as good - you know, Sins of a Solar Empire(87) and GalCiv2 (87). And those are Stardock's flagship titles!!!

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