StarCraft II

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DarQraven

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Jan 20, 2008
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[VaLkyR]Anubis;2466779 said:
I wasn't talking about any personal preference/s or anything else. However, you said it yourself already. Most people prefer more Terran, because they probably got more knowledge and experience with them by playing the single player through. However, on the other side, it is also possible to believe that most people aren't really interested to do something new, to try new stuff, just to do the same old stuff, in order to have the biggest chance to win. But hey, as I said before, I never played online, so I can guess and assume only, nothing else. It is nothing serious, aye.

By the way, what's the point of calling the Ultralisk as jesus reincarnation? Who the hell thinks or believes, that this is the best unit of the Zerg or the strongest unit of the entire game? Sounds like bollocks, coz it is not too hard to take this monster down.

Wow, that one went right over your head... (re: saviour ultralisk)

Like I said in my disclaimer, these stats aren't complete enough to draw quantitave conclusions from. (As in, Terran is *this much* overpowered)
However, are you really suggesting that there are twelve+ times as many Terran top players as there are Zerg top players entering these tournaments?
Let me repeat that. TWELVE PLUS TIMES as many Terran players?

Furthermore, do you really believe that what the singleplayer features is even remotely interesting to these top-tier players? That they learned their chops from playing the campaign?

I find it highly unlikely, to put it gently. They can do what they can do because they've played thousands of MP matches - enough time to learn a new race, I'd say.
White-Ra plays Protoss because he played Protoss in BW. He's not about to switch because the SC2 campaign happens to feature Terrans.
Idra played Terran in BW and early SC2, he now plays Zerg. Go figure.

All of the top players play the race that they are most succesful with or matches their playstyle best.

edit: What the hell. The link disappeared from my original post. No wonder this discussion is so confusing. Here it is once again for good measure.


I think part of that is because the games campaign only covers the Terran tree so most people who begin playing online pick Terran because they already know how to play them.

I personally played Terran in the original Starcraft MP so I went ahead and played Terran in SC2. I'm also pretty good at Protoss and mediocre at Zerg. Also, Protoss zealot rushes can take down a Terran base pretty damn fast. In the time that people can build 1 or 2 marines I can get 4 zealots hacking away at their supply wall.
Once again, do you really think that the people for who SC2 is their first Starcraft game are the people who are entering top-tier tournaments? The only one that remotely resembles someone like that is TLO, and he played Random for most of the beta AND has been an RTS progamer in other games before this one.

Honestly, 5 online matches teach you more about Terran than the entire campaign on Insane difficulty.
 
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inferyes

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Aug 16, 2009
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Haha I don't mean in top tier. I don't really care about massively over competitive play. I mainly play in Gold and Silver and I see three or 4 Terran to every 2 Zerg and Protoss. Terran definitely has a advantage in MP but I'm sure when the next 2 expansions come out they will add new units and abilities to the other 2 races as well. It's just a matter of time till they nerf some stuff to. I personally hope they do something about void rays. As soon as a I see a Protoss player I know the first thing he will do is build mass void rays. What's sad is that I'm right 95% of the time.
 

DarQraven

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Yeah, dunno. It disappeared in that post as well. Must be some weird chrome glitch :/

Put it back again.


Haha I don't mean in top tier. I don't really care about massively over competitive play. I mainly play in Gold and Silver and I see three or 4 Terran to every 2 Zerg and Protoss. Terran definitely has a advantage in MP but I'm sure when the next 2 expansions come out they will add new units and abilities to the other 2 races as well. It's just a matter of time till they nerf some stuff to. I personally hope they do something about void rays. As soon as a I see a Protoss player I know the first thing he will do is build mass void rays. It's pretty sad.

I AM talking about top-tier games, because that's the only place you can accurately gauge the game's balance. At lower levels (anything below diamond), most games are lost on mistakes, not balance. You need players to play near-perfectly before you can say that something is overpowered or underpowered.
And yes, the same issues are apparent at lower levels as well, you just can't draw any conclusions from those.

I won't fall into the trap of listing counters to mass void rays or zealot rushes, since every strategy typically has a counter. Where the game is imbalanced is in detecting those counters and how efficiently you can make them.
 
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inferyes

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Ok. Has Blizzard actually said that they are going to do something yet? They haven't updated in quite a while.
 

xMurphyx

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Jun 2, 2008
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[VaLkyR]Anubis;2466779 said:
I wasn't talking about any personal preference/s or anything else. However, you said it yourself already. Most people prefer more Terran, because they probably got more knowledge and experience with them by playing the single player through. However, on the other side, it is also possible to believe that most people aren't really interested to do something new, to try new stuff, just to do the same old stuff, in order to have the biggest chance to win. But hey, as I said before, I never played online, so I can guess and assume only, nothing else. It is nothing serious, aye.
I don't play StarCraft online either, so I wouldn't know, but that's exactly what happened in Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War. There was only one campaign with Space Marines and they were the all-rounder race. So nearly everyone was playing as Space Marines and pretty much only those who were already fans of other races from the table-top picked them.

It got much better with time though.
 

DarQraven

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Jan 20, 2008
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There are some 'preview patchnotes' in my thread (it's mine, don't touch it or I'll sue you!), yes.

Among other things, early Zealot pressure is being nerfed (+5 seconds build time for Zealots). Something will happen to Reapers (too strong vs Zerg early game, tadaaaa), and Siege tanks are being pushed into an anti-armor role instead of all-round awesomecannon. Slight Ultra nerf as well (-5 damage).

I don't play StarCraft online either, so I wouldn't know, but that's exactly what happened in Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War. There was only one campaign with Space Marines and they were the all-rounder race. So nearly everyone was playing as Space Marines and pretty much only those who were already fans of other races from the table-top picked them.

It got much better with time though.

Interesting point is that Terran seems to be the most fleshed out and all-round race of the three in SC2 as well. They have a specific unit for basically anything you'd want to do (see, reaper = special harass unit)
Makes you wonder if it's a design pitfall that developers can suffer from if they only make a one-race campaign. All the SP brainstorming happens for one race, and it's only logical that some of that carries over to MP as well.
 
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Darkdrium

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Jun 6, 2008
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But this is all disappointing to me because it will only encourage MMM even more, something we already see too much of and it's perfectly able to win games against any units Toss or Zerg can throw at it in early/mid game.
 

DarQraven

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There's more, probably. This isn't a complete patchlist, or even guarantees that the listed changes will be implemented. It's just a work-in-progress.

I can guarantee that something about MMM will be nerfed, be it the units themselves or how easily you can get them. My guess is that Medivacs will have their drop ability removed, now researchable.
 

Thrallala

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May 11, 2008
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Under the bridge downtown.
There better be a nerf for Marauders soon!

Iam however very glad to finally see a Siege Tank nerf!

@ inferyes, void rays? No way, they are weak. Especially against Terran Marines (they don't have enough life for the Void Ray to charge their beams) and we all know every decent Terran player will go for an army of marines, but lets say you have a bunch of mutalisks. You can simply attack the Void Rays for a few seconds then run back until their beams aren't hitting anymore and then run back to the fight. This way the Void Ray won't get charged and will do **** damage.

They are also very expensive, 250 minerals and 150 vespian gas. Plus they are slow as fook if you haven't upgraded their speed @ Fleet Beacon.

They are however pretty good for harassing, killing massive units and structures.
 

DarQraven

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Indeed, Void Rays aren't really OP, they're just annoying to deal with (and as you mentioned, expensive as ****). Then again, so are all air units.

Against Zerg though, they are very strong, though. Against two fast Void Rays, you NEED Hydralisks. Against one Void Ray, you need a Queen or two.

You don't just build a second Queen out of nowhere, while Marines are about the most common unit out there. Once again: If zerg doesn't scout Stargate -> Zerg loses.
 

Kantham

Fool.
Sep 17, 2004
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Ok. Has Blizzard actually said that they are going to do something yet? They haven't updated in quite a while.

I heard on Joystiq that they plan to launch an attack that will hole-fist hackers in the game. As far as balancing goes though, I don't know, either.

Also, I keep saying it, I'll just do again, I hope they give Zerg's Queen a auto-pump larvae option, I really feel like it's required and a must. I mean, I'm perfectly not fine with Zerg being the elitist APM race right now. Screw that ****.
 
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I've got my fingers crossed that the listed changes aren't all of what they plan to do - Because I won't keep watching SC2 if all I see is brainless M^3 play from Terran.
 

inferyes

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There are some 'preview patchnotes' in my thread (it's mine, don't touch it or I'll sue you!), yes.

Among other things, early Zealot pressure is being nerfed (+5 seconds build time for Zealots). Something will happen to Reapers (too strong vs Zerg early game, tadaaaa), and Siege tanks are being pushed into an anti-armor role instead of all-round awesomecannon. Slight Ultra nerf as well (-5 damage).

Why the hell did they nerf siege tanks? Unless your a braindead slug you can counter them without any problems. If anything, Thors anti air should be removed or at least have the splash damage from it removed.
 

DarQraven

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Jan 20, 2008
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Why the hell did they nerf siege tanks? Unless your a braindead slug you can counter them without any problems. If anything, Thors anti air should be removed or at least have the splash damage from it removed.

Lategame Terran. Once you get a critical mass of Tanks, nothing on ground can touch them. Then all the Terran needs is some dirt-cheap marines and you've got an impervious wall.

It's not so much a nerf as a role change. They still have the same amount of damage vs armored, it's just that it won't one-shot Zerg light units anymore.
 

Rambowjo

Das Protoss
Aug 3, 2005
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Lategame Terran. Once you get a critical mass of Tanks, nothing on ground can touch them. Then all the Terran needs is some dirt-cheap marines and you've got an impervious wall.

It's not so much a nerf as a role change. They still have the same amount of damage vs armored, it's just that it won't one-shot Zerg light units anymore.

Muta harassment, marauder drops, warp prisms. Just because there is a wall of tanks doesn't mean you have to clash with it. You can simply just go around it and shoot at other things.
 

DarQraven

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Jan 20, 2008
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Muta harassment, marauder drops, warp prisms. Just because there is a wall of tanks doesn't mean you have to clash with it. You can simply just go around it and shoot at other things.

Definitely, there are ways around it. Problem is that none of them will get you any closer to defeating those tanks. They WILL eventually go for your base, then what? Terran is usually the one playing attrition, doing it to them will only mean you lose out in the end (mules).

That aside, Tanks usually come with vikings and lots of marines. It's not the only unit they have. Why I think Blizzard changed their role a bit is that you could effectively force the same situation with enough templar as Protoss or buttloads of Broodlords as Zerg. Difference being: Broodlords are WAY higher tech and harder to get, while Templars cannot stack their storms on one area (in other words, cannot instakill ground units and cannot be upgraded) and require micro.

Tanks, on the other hand, can function as autodefense. Put some of them in siege mode near your base and if you have enough, nothing on the ground can touch them, ever. Just another one of those "lots more effort/risk required to counter than to perform"
Since Zealotbombing, mass recall are no longer really viable and tanks now have smart targeting, players have to resort to all sort of quirky harass options to counter a simple Tank wall.


In other news: New patchnotes (unconfirmed)
(And probably fake, judging from the reactions. Still, some of the changes sound plausible.)
 
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Rambowjo

Das Protoss
Aug 3, 2005
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By attacking other parts the terran's base, you will put their army out of position, allowing you to fly in and do damage to isolated troops. It's not easy and dealing with a tank wall can be difficult, especially with a lot of vikings. But you have to keep in mind, that if he's massing vikings, marines and tanks, he won't have too much of everything, unless you've been repeatedly running your entire army to its death.

But the tank nerf definitely is a good move.

I just took a look at the patch notes, and I absolutely love what they've done with the macro mechanics. Instead of making zerg easier, they've made terran and protoss harder by adding cooldowns to chronoboost and calldown MULE. That's brilliant and I hadn't actually though of that.
 
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DarQraven

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Jan 20, 2008
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By attacking other parts the terran's base, you will put their army out of position, allowing you to fly in and do damage to isolated troops. It's not easy and dealing with a tank wall can be difficult, especially with a lot of vikings. But you have to keep in mind, that if he's massing vikings, marines and tanks, he won't have too much of everything, unless you've been repeatedly running your entire army to its death.

But the tank nerf definitely is a good move.

I just took a look at the patch notes, and I absolutely love what they've done with the macro mechanics. Instead of making zerg easier, they've made terran and protoss harder by adding cooldowns to chronoboost and calldown MULE. That's brilliant and I hadn't actually though of that.

I dunno. On the one hand this levels the playing field quite a bit. On the other hand it more or less removes all the coolness of the macro mechanics and reduces them to simple APM sinks that you need to perform to remain competitive - exactly what they tried to avoid in SC2 and why they came up with the macro mechanics in the first place. (They came into the picture to compensate for auto-gather - another APM sink that allows zero creativity or skill)

Things like the dual Stalker opening are a thing of the past if these changes come through. Chronoboost will just be an obligatory speed boost, without which you will fall behind in macro, while the currect spammable implementation allows for special uses of Chronoboost (such as CBing both first Stalkers in the aforementioned 2Stalker opening). You can't do that "don't build cheaper unit, wait for better, more expensive tech to unlock and CB them out quicker" thing either.

Same for mule, really. With the proposed changes, you really just need to be spot on with your mules, there's no other use for them at all. Terran could do some hit 'n run gathering before (fly CC out to gold expo, spam mule all over the place and leave afterwards). No more of that.

While I appreciate balance, I'm not in favor of removing the fun/versatility in the game to achieve said balance.
I understand why they couldn't just grant Zerg the ability to stack/spam spawn larvae since it would allow for some pretty serious exploits, but destroying two otherwise fine macro mechanics instead is the easy way out.
 
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