2.86, too realistic?

Well Beer, here our definitions and applications therof differ.
In INF there is hardly any cover and on top of that people rarely miss. Now the last part is exeptionally important in this case:

Since people hardly miss the only defense is speed (speed which you won't have anymore) and the ability to fire back accurately (which is also gone).
From this follows whoever is not moving at the time of engagement will win. Unless ofcourse this other person is an increddibly poor shot or has 4 digit ping.

Hmmm reflexes and reaction timing is a great part of anything, I mean hell if you have SLOW reflexes and SLOW reactions how the hell is your position going to help you when someone shoots at you before you even decide to shoot back eh? *shrugs* I don't see how that can be "hardly" part of anything, imo its very important.

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Quite simply put if somebody is shooting at you on the move you have nothing to fear really and you can pick him off at your leisure. There is a reason that firing on the move is only done with any effect in extreme CQB (IE 20m and less).

So what you're saying is that reaction time doesn't matter, as you can simply lie in wait pointing in the direction the enemy is coming from?

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Yes, it only has any result if whoever is shooting either sucks or their connection sucks.

Here are a few counter points to whether reaction time is important in combat and in INF:

1. As the game stands now, you can do just that. If your reaction times on the trigger and aiming are not up to scratch, it won't work. Just like real life.

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This is true for extreme CQB, for the rest however the more range you get the more important your location becomes.

2. You are assuming that you always know where an ambush will come from. Granted to you can position yourself to limit access, but the enemy is cunning. What if you're set up covering one access to your hole, and your buddy is covering a second access? An enemy sniper picks off your buddy and a two man CQB pops up to take you out. Your reactions will determin if you can acquire your targets from under you cover and take them out before they're on top of you. That applies RL and INF.

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If the sniper pickwed off your buddy and you didn't notice you are most likely dead anyway since you'll probably be gunned down from behind. If they attack from the front you still have the advantage of being immobile and thus not suffering any accuracy penalties which means your reaction time becomes less important simply because they cannot hit you untill they have come to a halt.

3. What if you are the attacker? Are you going to just lie in wait and hope the enemy gives up it's great positions to come get you? No you're squad must advance on positions. Here team movement and knowledge of your friendly positions is crucial, but not worth squat if you don't have the skill and reactions to quickly acquire targets and take them out. This also applied to RL and INF.

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For the attacker attacking head on will simply be suicide as before. IRL the most important thing is figuring out a way to either flank them or pop up from behind which once again renders reaction less important because the enemy will not expect it.

Fat to chew on, my friends. If physical ability is so unimportant, then why does the military take such extensive steps to improve the physical condition of new recruits?
I'm not completely disagreeing with anyone on the importance of the tactics of position, but they are only part of the puzzle. If you want to engineer a game that negates the other pieces, then it is unrealistic.

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They are indeed not unimportant, but not nearly as important as planning and strategy. you can have uber soldiers but if you decide to take fortified positions head on you will suffer heavy casualties simply because that is where the firepower is pointed at.

Originally posted by The_Fur
They are indeed not unimportant, but not nearly as important as planning and strategy. you can have uber soldiers but if you decide to take fortified positions head on you will suffer heavy casualties simply because that is where the firepower is pointed at.

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I agree. Presently if you have a group of skilled runners (<i>read: uber soldiers</i>) going up against a group of skilled campers (<i>read: people in fortified positions</i>), the campers are fill them full of lead and watch them sink to the ground

Bending the argument again, my friend. Did I say that positional tactics were not important? I said that position tactics are important, but with no skill they are useless.

Did I say that speed and skill will give you the ability to take on a fortified position head on? No I didn't. I said that tactical movement and skill/reactions were necessary, and that removing the skill/reactions from the game creates an unrealistic environment.

You are correct in saying that a team of the best players/soldiers ever born could be stimied by an adequate team with good positioning (and patience) is they charge every enemy position from the front. I didn't say that wasn't so, but quick movement and honed reactions are what get you to that flanking position and into the enemies nest.

As far as firing on the move, it can an is done. True no one has accuracy while SPRINTING sideways (or even fast jogging sideways). Not that they'll NEVER get a hit, but accuracy is definitely about 85% lower doing such. As far as a "double time" jog (slow jog or fast march, however you want to view it), if accuracy will stationary is called 99% then accuracy while jogging is 70-75%. Accuracy while walking, whether strafing or not is 85-90%.

The factor that GREATLY increases while moveing is your visibility. You stand a MUCH higher probability of being hit, and that is already in existance in the game. This is where the reaction time of the defender comes into play (it's also where the teamwork comes in). Quick thinking and quick/accurate triggers will nail that sucker bobbing his little head around.

I will say that I would like to see the end of stafing and running. These guys aren't acrobats and I'd like to see someone try to aim a gun and run full tilt sideways. It's impossible. You'd fall down and end up with that scope embedded in your eyesocket

The game mechanics can and will improve, I think, but engineering the "real" environment of the game to favor the one style you think is correct is a mistake. I understand that a large part of the INF community shares your view of "this is the way it's done in reality, and that's the way it should be done in INF". However, there is an equaly larg (if not larger) group that likes the realism of INF, but doesn't think that just because a certain style would probably not get you home from a war in real life, the game should be limited in unrealistic ways to make such play impossible.

Cholo, who is that directed at?

I was replying to FUR, but it since we're discussing it can be taken by anyone who wants it.

I was just wondering because he was responding to Dr. Beer, so, <b>"<i>Did I say</i> that speed and skill will give you the ability to take on a fortified position head on? No I didn't. I said that tactical movement and skill/reactions were necessary, and that removing the skill/reactions from the game creates an unrealistic environment,"</b> did not make me think you were replying to him. I just wanted to make sure you were not replying to me, because I was not responding to any of your posts, either

Bending the argument again, my friend. Did I say that positional tactics were not important? I said that position tactics are important, but with no skill they are useless.

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Excuse me? where did this come from? I wasn't beending anything I was commenting on the points given. Please avoid such accusations in future.

As far as firing on the move, it can an is done. True no one has accuracy while SPRINTING sideways (or even fast jogging sideways). Not that they'll NEVER get a hit, but accuracy is definitely about 85% lower doing such. As far as a "double time" jog (slow jog or fast march, however you want to view it), if accuracy will stationary is called 99% then accuracy while jogging is 70-75%. Accuracy while walking, whether strafing or not is 85-90%.

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In fact the accuracies are much lower, as stormcaller allready said moving is quite detrimental to aim. Don't expect to score any hits beyond 30 m or so when moving.

However, there is an equaly larg (if not larger) group that likes the realism of INF, but doesn't think that just because a certain style would probably not get you home from a war in real life, the game should be limited in unrealistic ways to make such play impossible.

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Fortunately such thgings will simply not be needed due to the increasing realism. Realism makes it's own rules.

The factor that GREATLY increases while moveing is your visibility. You stand a MUCH higher probability of being hit, and that is already in existance in the game. This is where the reaction time of the defender comes into play (it's also where the teamwork comes in). Quick thinking and quick/accurate triggers will nail that sucker bobbing his little head around.

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I agree here, one of the most important things in combat is most likely mimising your profile. The less visible the less of a target you are. The less of a target the bigger the chance of you emerging out of the battle victorious.

I will just have to disagree on the accuracy.

Also I didn't understand the reply to my statement about creating unrealistic limitations to balance play toward a manner that you think constitutes realistic game dynamics. I stated that a large group of players do NOT want unrealistic limitations to limit their options of play. You replied by saying that , "Fortunately such thgings will simply not be needed due to the increasing realism. Realism makes it's own rules."

As far as bending the argument, I made on statement and made a rebuttal that assumed alot more than I said. Disagree with what I say, not with what you assume I think.