Lack of really good custom content is sad

MonsOlympus · Feb 26, 2008

Yeah it'll just take some time, like some of the others have said the tools have changed a bit and there is alot of new additions so its not like people can get up to speed over night.

Im kinda glad the contest hasnt got rolling just yet as I think there will be more quality if its held off for a bit. Ofcoarse I have no clue when the submissions will be until later but I do hope they arnt something people have to really rush to. It would be nice for people to be able to take their time and polish the **** out of their work then submit it

CaSCaDe · Feb 26, 2008

sc said:
Two main things stalling me when it comes to mapping for UT3 (or any other game).

1. Time. I have hardly any time after work these days to work on my own stuff. I usually just end up crashing in front of my PC and browsing the net/IRC and playing a casual game like Cod4 or whatever all night.

2. Motivation. I'd rather do the above mentioned things than map when I get home because I'm using Unreal pretty much all day at work and it does get tiresome.

:tdown::tup:

my sentiments exactly.... no time and if there is time id rather do other stuff then the stuff i do at work

ambershee · Feb 26, 2008

haslo said:
Nah... myself I actually increased my lightmap resolutions by a factor of 5 on all BSP, roughly, it did push the map from 45mb to 50mb uncompressed and from 40 to 42 compressed. And: You can't have detailed maps without higher-res lightmaps, it just looks odd if things don't throw shadows...

Are there tools that show the distribution of what content in a .ut3 takes how much space by the way? Admittedly I really didn't care much for optimizing map size, maybe I should have, considering all the talk about map sizes. I imagined people download stuff outside the game as well, as I do...

Lightmaps also apply to things like terrains and sheets. Terrain with high-res lightmaps is unecessary, as you can create shadows in other ways.

Reducing lightmap quality doesn't stop objects throwing shadows. It just reduces the resolution of said lightmap, thus reducing the quality of the shadow (increases pixellation).

BigDragon · Feb 26, 2008

There's not much of a point in making high-end content (as in not mutators or slight alterations) for a game when it needs a contest to provide enough incentive for people to make that high-end content. UT3 on its own cannot provide enough incentive due to low sales, player counts, and negativity. There's a lot of "mods" out there, but most of them are poorly laid out maps or mutators it looks like. Sure, when you count them it's a lot of stuff, but when you critique the quality there's really not much quality stuff.

I think a lot of people are going to wait for whatever this contest is to be announced, make stuff for it iff the contest is good, and then go right back ignoring this game unless Epic actively tries to interact positively with its community, listen to them and stop snubbing people, and becomes more down-to-earth when dealing with people. They're so high right now the needed interaction is all with members of the media and not with the people who are going to be putting the time and effort into making content. I do not think the complexities and added time needed to create content for UT3 is holding anyone back. People have always overcome this stuff in the past because they want to.

I would gladly go back to mapping and trying out character design if I simply got a genuine apology and unban from Wartourist. I was just getting warmed up with what I released and completely intended to make improvements next time based on the criticisms I received. Unless that happens there are plenty of other games out there right now to make content for. UT is not the only mod-friendly game out there these days. Epic admits the FPS-packed nature of this past Christmas shopping season. It was also very mod-packed since many of the released games have mod-support.

ambershee · Feb 26, 2008

There are several TCs in production. They take time, a lot of time. Other than maps, characters and mutators, what are you to expect after 3 months?

amcculley · Feb 26, 2008

1) Lack of Mod/TC support/documentation out of the box. People know how now, but it took a while.

2) Lack of Custom Family support. The introduction of customizable characters was a huge barrier (and is one STILL being worked out). Again, Epic hasn't been terribly helpful with this so alot of it has been trial/error by the community.

3) Bugs. Hair/Alpha for example.

4) Higher detail as others have stated.

5) Lack of a huge playerbase means a smaller community base as well.

Lots of reasons. We are still plugging away at our TC but it won't be publically available for display for almost another year.

haslo · Feb 26, 2008

ambershee said:
Lightmaps also apply to things like terrains and sheets. Terrain with high-res lightmaps is unecessary, as you can create shadows in other ways.

I disagree, although there are of course terrains where this is true. In my map, there's a sunset, and long shadows from big cranes and piled containers. While the container's shadows are rectangular enough for this not to matter that much, the shadows from the cranes would again not show at all with lower lightmap resolutions. Just have a look at this screenie, and this one (note the bushes), and tell me I could've achieved the same effect with a lower-res lightmap.

Yes, I could have made the map differently so it wouldn't build on those effects in the first place, of course

I don't like the HOLP package myself though, sorry, and don't wanna go there myself.

ambershee said:
Reducing lightmap quality doesn't stop objects throwing shadows. It just reduces the resolution of said lightmap, thus reducing the quality of the shadow (increases pixellation).

Yes, and thin objects won't throw shadows at all anymore, because the resolution of the lightmap is too low to catch them at all - instead of a consistent shadow there'll only be one slightly darker blob right below the object itself, but no shadow at all beyond that point. Pixelation in this case means losing enough detail for there not to be any shadow at all anymore, which was exactly my point. For example, the ion cannons I have overlooking the sea, they wouldn't throw shadows at all and look pretty much out of place with lower resolutions (screenie, near the waterline) - or at least, the sunset wouldn't be remotely as vivid.

So thanks, I know how those things work, and what I'm talking about

All this is beside the point though, because what I wanted to say with my post: Eventhough I did increase my lightmap resolution fife-fold, the map size didn't go up that much; it was the amount of static meshes, Kismet scripts, materials and textures, sound files and pretty much everything thrown together that increased file size way beyond 30mb already before the light maps even started coming into the picture.

Angel_Mapper · Feb 26, 2008

I've been too busy whoring myself out for money. Doing contract work on the side for money > making maps and muts for the community. I don't even think another MSUC would change that, guaranteed income from contract work > chance of a bit of prize money from the contest.

If I did have time to do personal projects it would probably be for the Source engine at the moment. I'm just not in love with UE3Ed like I was with previous versions. :hmm:

WarTourist · Feb 26, 2008

Angel_Mapper said:
I've been too busy whoring myself out for money. Doing contract work on the side for money > making maps and muts for the community. I don't even think another MSUC would change that, guaranteed income from contract work > chance of a bit of prize money from the contest.

Congrats! Glad to hear you went pro!

Angel_Mapper · Feb 26, 2008

Heheh, I went pro 5 years ago, but thank you.

[edit] That's not to say I don't use the Unreal engine at all, most of my contract work is working with it. I've just felt compelled to expand into other editors and C++ work.

Anuban · Feb 26, 2008

Angel_Mapper said:
If I did have time to do personal projects it would probably be for the Source engine at the moment. I'm just not in love with UE3Ed like I was with previous versions.

This is a pretty telling statement from someone who is the past made a boatload of very high quality content for past UT games. See this is what I am talking about ... we lose these mappers folks and the quality factor goes way down. And look I am not trying to insult anyone. I have just about every available level ... people know that I am a content and especially map and model whore and of course I have fun with the content but we can all be honest and agree that there is a class of mappers that are just above the rest (due to a number of factors one of which being familiarity with the engine and length if time being a modder).

Anyway my thread is titled lack of REALLY good custom content and that is what I am talking about. Not the amount that is available. In some respects its not bad, well for the PC users at least ... there are a lot of good mutators and as I said some good solid maps. But as far as models go ... I didn't see any on the Polycount boards and the only really good ones I have seen are from EE, Davision, Slaughter (and his is using EE's base Axon model), and MacTom, but other than that I have not seen any really high level quality models or skins available for download. If I have missed something please give me a link. And when I say good I mean it looks as good as the default models in the game down to the animations and weapon holding. I know for a fact there was a ton of good skins for UT2K3 within this same time frame. Why not provide more documentation to the modellers and skinners so they can ramp up faster and get better, higher quality content out to the community sooner.

Take a look at Davisions latest original character ...

http://gearsforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=596770&page=19

This is the level of quality that we used to see on a pretty regular basis with UT2k3 and Ut2k4 but so far these models from Davision are it as far as good wholly original models and to me that is just sad after three months.

As far as the amount of custom content slowing down ... heck yeah ... especially good solid custom content. While it is great to see so many new comers embrace the game and engine and make maps these folks are new so although fun the maps lack that pro look and feel and again even what would be called the second tier of really good UT mappers are not making content for the game. People like Spankshot who has proven he is definitely talented, NiceGuyEddie, IzaFly, BigDragon, Bazz, Necro, etc. are not even going to make any completely original work now and these are talented mappers capable of pulling off great things. Heck even some of the newcomers to mapping (folks who had only previously released one thing or just made stuff but never released it publically) have already bowed out the scene as well. Thankfully though some of the slack has been picked up by folks like haslo but still we need more, its a fact.

Very little new stuff came out this past weekend for example (some mutators yes but even they are not really pro level yet and are stuck in that somewhat amatuerish, but fun, state since the UI is so hard to implement and the vast majority of mutators still require the user to manually modify ini files .... this is clearly not as good as UT2k3 and UT2k4 were although there is a healthy number of them) ... sure more remakes which as I have said before I definitely appreciate but at this stage I would like more but on the flipside I think I understand all the myraid reasons why it is not occurring and since I myself am able to contribute I am very understanding of it all ... but that doesn't mean I am not sad ... I'm not angry though ... I don't have a right to be ... the content is all free and as I have always maintained you can't complain too much about free goodies that bring you pleasure.

No the purpose of this thread was to see if I was waaaay off base and also to hopefully stir some people up and get more folks to start modding again and also for Epic to work on giving certain types of modders better documentation so they can make great content for us. I really hope that not too many more of the mainstays of the community opt of developing content for UT3 ... man they really helped make UT2k4 an AMAZING product that truly stands alone.

Thanks to everyone who replied ... I appreciate your opinions and views on the issue. And again I hope I have not offended any of the upcoming mappers and modders out there who read this ... it is not my intention at all and believe me I appreciate your effort and determination and look forward to seeing many of you evolve over the coming year as I have seen other modders turn into incredible pro devs. Such as AngelMapper, Soma, AngelHeart and Cursed, etc. Oh yeah Desp does have an amazing level coming ... it is exactly the type of level I have been referring to. Also Wolverine's level is looking pretty spectacular ... I miss those unique maps ... where is Hazel by the way ... talk about some sweet one of kind maps in UT2k4 ... see another very talented mapper who has yet to drop something for UT3 (although hopefully she is part of the current UCMP team which is working on a pack of very good levels for us to play ... man am I looking forward to that.

I'll also be glad if once the contest is announced some genuinely good content will flow ... what are you dudes waiting for anyway ... announce the contest already. Oh wait you can't ... you still need to fix some PS3 bugs so PS3 folks have a fair shot I bet. And then there is the matter of waiting for people to get up to speed with model making and skinning ... and you folks at Epic helping them out with more documentation. Ah okay I see why now ... but please don't wait too much longer ... the community needs a real catalyst right about now.

Angel_Mapper · Feb 26, 2008

I wouldn't worry yet, 2k3 started off slow as well due to people getting used to the new tools, the same thing is happening here. The game hasn't been out that long.

A lot of mappers I know don't care how many people are playing the game, they map for themselves and for the love of mapping first. I've seen some promising stuff out there that tells me that the quality of maps coming out in the future is going to be pretty high. Give it some time. By summer I'd say we'll see a lot of great stuff coming out. It took about that long for people to get up to speed with 2k3.

Molgan · Feb 26, 2008

I considered all my little ued experiments in 2k4 as a warmup for UT3, but after the eleventyhundred time the UT3 editor mysteriously crashed on me my mapping came to a halt. =/

MonsOlympus · Feb 26, 2008

Polycount still has models? http://polycount.com/

http://www.gameartisans.org/dominancewar/

Try that out perhaps, or cgsociety alot of good modellers hang out there. Perhaps they are just busy working with pre-render.

Also, the servers must have a model and people must have force model turned off as far as I know. Maybe it'll default to someone elses default instead or something, dunno on that.

As was said in an interview something about people who can use UE3 in the US are already hired or something, so maybe thats an issue? How many of the modders who worked on UT2k3/4 stuff have jobs either in the biz or elsewheres taking up their time.

Honestly all the contest will do is draw people in it for the money, sure you can have money and love for the game but without the money you know its for the love

Anuban · Feb 26, 2008

Angel_Mapper said:
I wouldn't worry yet, 2k3 started off slow as well due to people getting used to the new tools, the same thing is happening here. The game hasn't been out that long.

A lot of mappers I know don't care how many people are playing the game, they map for themselves and for the love of mapping first. I've seen some promising stuff out there that tells me that the quality of maps coming out in the future is going to be pretty high. Give it some time. By summer I'd say we'll see a lot of great stuff coming out. It took about that long for people to get up to speed with 2k3.

And yet you just said you probably wouldn't map for the game yourself if you had the time ... what makes you others don't share you sentiment and that is one of the reasons for this slowdown in content. And I was there when UT2K3 came out and it did not take folks 8-9 months to get to speed with UED ... there was also a ton of documentation around to assist folks ... and the MSU really got people motivated to produce copious amounts of content which carried over to UT2K4. This is how I remember it at least. But of course I will give it some time ... plenty of time. I am not going anywhere soon I hope and I still love this game so I plan on being around when/if it gets a lot better on the modding scene and great content flows like the mighty Danube.

Angel_Mapper · Feb 26, 2008

Anuban said:
And yet you just said you probably wouldn't map for the game yourself if you had the time ... what makes you others don't share you sentiment and that is one of the reasons for this slowdown in content.

That's only because I could never keep myself pinned down like that. I've been mapping with Unreal for over 8 years now, I need new challenges. That's one of the reasons I started learning UnrealScript during 2k3, and C++/Source this past year.

I remember the same thing happening with UT99 -> 2k3, a lot of the great mappers from the UT99 era like DavidM just vanished into the ether, snapped up by game companies.

I can't really form this thought into anything cohesive, I don't know if I'm getting my point across well. I guess I'm just saying that a lot of the great 2k4 mappers have game jobs now, and either don't feel like doing the same thing they do at work on their off time, or have something else they'd rather do since they're still able to feed the mapping bug at work.

And I was there when UT2K3 came out and it did not take folks 8-9 months to get to speed with UED ... there was also a ton of documentation around to assist folks ... and the MSU really got people motivated to produce copious amounts of content which carried over to UT2K4. This is how I remember it at least. But of course I will give it some time ... plenty of time. I am not going anywhere soon I hope and I still love this game so I plan on being around when/if it gets a lot better on the modding scene and great content flows like the mighty Danube.

I remember a few good maps coming out in the early months, but it took a good six months for the really great stuff to start showing up. I haven't really been expecting anything in that league yet with UT3, there just hasn't been enough time. If I had started working on a map when the game came out, I don't even think I'd be halfway done yet.

BigDragon · Feb 26, 2008

Anuban and others looking for quality stuff:

You do realize that the established veteran talent out there eventually moves on to bigger and better projects, right? Everyone starts off somewhere, releases content, becomes better with each iteration, and eventually hits that point where it's more time-efficient to do pro and paid work than to do free work for the community. That's what every modder's dream normally is. That's why it's important to both foster veteran talent as well as those people who are up-and-coming. The friction being created through the multiple UT3 platforms not all having the same features over-complicates things too, especially when you get bombarded by people who want you to put your stuff out on a platform people aren't traditionally used to doing that on.

This is the main reason why I'm still mad at Wartourist and have yet to find a way out of the predicament I'm in. I can pick apart the couple of maps I've released in the past and rip them to pieces like any self-criticizing artist typically does. Then hunger for improvement and perfection with each new piece of work and every new project. Everyone wants to be like Hourences and Angel if they're in the modding scene. I certainly do. It takes time, patience, and dedication to get there, and nobody likes being bounced out of a club before they've had their chance to make an impact on the other people there. How would you like it if you were climbing the ropes and someone snipped it off because he didn't like the way you chose to word things or discriminated against the way you conduct yourself? Is it hard to start over again? No, but it's a lot easier to pick up where you left off.

UndeadRoadkill · Feb 26, 2008

Anuban said:
Yeah okay but no one seems to be talking about the lack of custom models ....

Actually, what I've been missing the most right now isn't maps or models, but new weapons. And I'm not talking about ZARK mods. The stock weapons are cool for online play and everything, but offline, I'm just so bored of these same old weapons we've had (minus a few) for years.

In fact, I find myself thinking more and more that I wish they had made an alternate set of weapons to complement the alternate set of vehicles. The vehicles were a good start, but I think the game needed more creativity to stand out from the others in the past season.

Anuban · Feb 26, 2008

Angel_Mapper said:
I guess I'm just saying that a lot of the great 2k4 mappers have game jobs now, and either don't feel like doing the same thing they do at work on their off time, or have something else they'd rather do since they're still able to feed the mapping bug at work.

Bingo! And herein lies the rub for gamers like me that came from UT2k3/4 expecting things to be even bigger and better. You just confirmed the worst fears for a lot of UT gamers whether they want to admit it or not. Sure we are going to get some really nice and fun and even good looking content ... but that really top level truly unique is probably going to remain elusive for some time as the current group of talented mappers raise their skill level even more through the release of more levels.

Anuban · Feb 26, 2008

Sammael said:
Actually, what I've been missing the most right now isn't maps or models, but new weapons. And I'm not talking about ZARK mods. The stock weapons are cool for online play and everything, but offline, I'm just so bored of these same old weapons we've had (minus a few) for years.

In fact, I find myself thinking more and more that I wish they had made an alternate set of weapons to complement the alternate set of vehicles. The vehicles were a good start, but I think the game needed more creativity to stand out from the others in the past season.

I actually meant all models ... character, weapon, pickups, and vehicles, but I ended up just taking about character models.

Lack of really good custom content is sad

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