Psychomorph`s Idea for INF

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Beppo

Infiltration Lead-Programmer
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(SDS)benmcl said:
... The fact the Beppo has been seriously discussing this topic ...

'the Beppo' ... nice 'typo' ;)

Thing is, that I join a discussion if the object of the discussion is of interest for me and if I actually noticed the discussion or someone pointed me at it. So the fact that 'the Beppo' joined this thread is pretty simple... I read the ideas and wanted to share my thoughts about them. That's what a discussion is all about. Sharing of thoughts and ideas and 'talking' about them. But I guess you guys know this already ;)

To the clipping probs...
Clipping problems depend only on the model and how far it is placed away from your screen. You can have the same 'look' at a weapon even if one is placed one unit in front of your 'screen' and the other one is placed 10 units in front of it using a slightly bigger scale. This would not result in the same clipping problems even if it doesn't sound 100% logical at first. Thing is that the smaller version simply has less 'polys'/ that can hit/clip into the screen than the big scaled version but if it starts clipping then the whole thing may be gone and for the bigger version only one little poly at its back. Not easy to explain for a non english native so I hope you understood the difference.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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Than I didn´t understood that, but I rather suggested it for the next engine, not for UT.

Will it be possible with HL2, UT2004... ??... Far Cry, Doom3, or whatever? Or is it impossible at all (I doubt the impossibility, but who knows)?
 
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Beppo

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Psycho, I only talked about the general 'why I discuss things here' and explained the clipping problem that 'can' occur if you place a mesh close to your 'screen'. But I haven't said anything about the different weapon holding positions at all.

I guess I already said that these different positions do not need more than a set of animations for 2k4, HL2 or whatever. For UT it would need a new set of animations too, a lot more than for the other engines and for each single weapon actually. So do not expect this to happen for INF for UT... but that was already clear I guess.
For future titles these different weapon positions will be something to take in mind if applicable and fitting to our TFP (TrueFirstPerson) view we are aiming for.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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Ok. As I said, I didn´t expected/suggested it for UT INF, just for the future.

Is the True First Person this 'development Idea', means the 3rd person model stuff used in 1st person? That would be definitely a new level.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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Ah, sparing work? :D
A well done 3rd person animations would create the best 1st person animations including visible low ready held guns and feet if looking down. Must be awesome, hope you rush up ;).

But how the quality would be? Is it possible to make highres enough textures and highpoly modelparts as the gun and the arms?
 
Apr 21, 2003
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So you can have the 3rd weapon in your view highpoly, while others see in 3rd person lowpoly?

How that works? In games like SWAT3 you use the actual 3rd model. Will you use probably still a 1st person model which just acts same as the 3rd person? Or does it all works just with the one 3rd person model?

Sorry for to much curiosity, but thats something I always wanted to know.
 

Dr.J

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beppo, id be really interested to ask you how you plan to have freeaim, weapon bob, breathing and things like that look in TFP - because as you probably know third person models in every first person shooter only point at one place ;) it sounds like for freeaim you plan to have some kind of dynamic IK style setup where you plan to have your weapon being waved dynamically by the characters arms - something id be very interested to see.


but this sounds like a lot of hard work... i wish you good luck in the next generation inf project :)
 

Beppo

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to the models...
basically you have a different mesh for the 3rd person perspective that other players see and one for your 1st person view that only you can see. This way you can use the number of polys you need. Both meshs are linked together and share the same animations. So what you see is what the other guys see too. Just the level of detail of the mesh differs.

to the freeaim aso...
you can alter the arm bones rotation via script for example. This way you can let the arms 'bob', swing, aim or whatever you want to do with them. In theory you would even be able to script something that will look like an animation in the end.
 

OICW

Reason & Logic > Religion
I'd like to see body awareness in a future version of Inf as long as the animations match up with what we're doing. IN SWAT 3, the body awareness works alright, except when you're aiming down, and although the weapon isn't pointing where the crosshairs are (plus your arms and weapon limit your view of what you're aiming at), your bullets still hit where the crosshair is. Hopefully it would be possible to have aiming up and down animations that match what the weapon is doing.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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So TFP will still use a 3rd person and 1st person, with the difference, that both act the same way, at the same time (animations and so on)?
Thats cool, I was thinking about 3rd person in 1st person for a while and always thought they would be a problem in model and skin quality, but if it works that way, it is awesome.

Is it how it works in Hitman (1-3)? Cuz in Hitman the quality is pretty low, so I thought it is the actual lowpoly, lowres 3rd person model.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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According to my Low Ready suggestion, here the stamina suggestion:

They are two stamina systems, the main stamina and the aim stamina


aim stamina
This stamina just affects your arms. Holding a rifle for too long will drop this stamina, while the effect is that your weapon starts to shake a bit (looks more of like the weapon can´t be held exactly steady and is moving around a bit).
This stamina affects your aiming, but has nothing to do with breathing.
If the whole stamina bar is low the gun returns to low ready, where the bar refills. Short after the automatical low ready you can aim the gun again, but the handshake will be too huge and the stamina will be lost to fast again.

The more you loose the aim stamina, the less you can hold the gun steady.
It is not a big problem, cuz only after you reached a critical stage (which is your own fault) your aiming accurassy is affected, otherwise it is a not to big deal.

If the untypical situation will happen that you loose all your aim stamina (afk and forgot to low ready? :D), you can refill it pretty fast by using low ready.


main stamina
Main stamina affects your body at all. They are two main stamina systems, a normal one, and a critical one (which affects the aim stamina).

If you run, sprint, jump your main stamina drops (as in actual INF). It makes your speed slower and breath harder. While your breath affects your aiming accurassy it doesnt let the aim stamina drop (or just a bit).

If you get tired (after a run untill fully main stamina loose), or injured (bullet, kevlar vest stopped bullets, falling from higher place) your main stamina reaches a critical stage, where the aim stamina can be loose to a certain procent, or fully.
This kind of situation is fatal, cuz you move slow, breath hard and also your arms shake, but that doesn´t mean you cant hit anything, it is just much harder.
 

ravens_hawk

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I like the idea of low ready for two reasons
A) It gives us something for long guns to reduce weapon collision (which would allow us to get closer to walls for peeking and such, while still looking foward.)
B) As a side option (not to hijack) it could be used to limit turning speed, drop into low ready and you be able to spin faster or something like that.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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ravens_hawk said:
I like the idea of low ready for two reasons.
A)...
B) As a side option (not to hijack) it could be used to limit turning speed, drop into low ready and you be able to spin faster or something like that.
Yay, thats something I didn´t thought about, good point. Indeed, in real life I saw (often training stuff), where soldiers, take the gun to a lower position, turn fast and lift the barrel quickly to aim. And if soldiers do that in real life, it has a reason. Same as low ready has a reason in real life.
 
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gal-z

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The reason is it's very hard to see where you need to turn when looking through the sights, as your FOV is smaller and area that you focus on is even smaller, especially when using acog scopes (which I have on my M4A1). So basically u bring your head up (shouldered but pointed forward weapon mode), turn then aim again.
As for the effect of low ready on weapon collision, you will first have to make weapon collision realistic. Even the way it is right now, the proportions of how much your weapons collide with walls and doorways is all wrong for different weapons of different lengths.
 
Apr 21, 2003
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Sling System

Sling System
I think they are two points in carrying weapons, the 'physical ability' and the 'physical usability'.

Of course it is possible to carry even 6 rifles (3 on each shoulder), but to take one rifle, you probably need to take off the other 2 rifles. Does it make sence in combat? Does it make sence at all?

Speaking about 'physical usability' I can think of 3 good accessable sling positions, plus the ability to carry one weapon in the hands.
Also the pistol holster at the leg.
Even if you have a backpack, the 2 rifles at the back are still at the same position at the right, or left of the back.


sling_system.gif



If you see at the picture, they are 3 sling positions:
1. Weapon position at the chest.
- fast and direct weapon select.
2. Weapon position at the right side of the back.
- you let your 'chest gun' slide, grab with the right hand the rifle at the back, pull it forward, shoulder and aim.
3. Weapon position at the left side of the back.
- you pull the rifle at the back and grab with the left hand the other rifle at the back, pull it forward, shoulder it and aim.
4. Hand Held weapon position (pistol, or another weapon).
- you pull the rifle back to the left, pull the pistol and aim, or grab a weapon on the ground and aim.


Primary Weapons
I think you should be able to carry on the slings 3 weapons, no matter what one. A SMG, carabine rifle, assaultrifle, battlerifle, light sniperrifle, heavy sniperrifle, light machinegun, heavy machinegun.
It has nothing to do with the size of the weapons, but with the place they are held/hang on.

You can even carry 3 M249's. But carrying to heavy equipment should let you get tired slowly, even if you stand, or crouch.
Proning, or get crouched will take long, standing up even slower. Select deselect heavy weapons will take more time.
If you carry allready 3 weapons and grab another one, you hold it in the hands, but if you select one of your equipped weapons, you drop the hand held weapon.

Rocket Launchers
I´m not sure about the Rocketlaunchers.
If you carry a RPG launcher, you cary byside the launcher the bag with the rockets. So you can only have one weapon on the sling at the chest and hold a second in the hands, which you will drop if you select one of your equipped weapons.
I don´t know about the AT4. Is it a light weapon, so you could carry a rifle at the back byside the AT4? Do AT4 equipped soldiers carry rockets in a bag in the back?

Weapons without a sling/bag/holster
Every weapon without a sling (or a special bag as the RGP) will be dropped if deselected.

Pistols
I´m not sure, if you have pouches, where a second pistol can be carried, but if not, than you can have one pistol equipped (one holster). To get another one, you have to drop the used pistol.
Maybe you can loadout a second pistol with the holster at the chest.
Selecting a holster, without a pistol, for a future second pistol, could be discussed, don´t know if it makes sence.


Ammunition
Carrying many weapons is one story, but having enough bags and pouches for ammo is another.

Ammo should not just be a number in the HUD, but have a special place where it can be held.
If the standart vest has 6 pouches with each contain 2, or 3 rifle clips, than you cant have more than that.
If you have 3 smaller pouches for pistol ammo, than you can´t carry more.


Backpack
It is known, that you can carry much ammo in the backpack, but how fast is this backpack accessable? Or should we skip realism on that part?

Equipment
I think about, that the backpack is an equipment. You can choose it, or not.
If you equip yourself with a backpack, you can fill it in the 'equipment menu' with stuff you need.
You can take more ammo, nades, mines, even small weapons, like a pistol, or a SMG with a retracted stock.

Use
- With a special 'backpack key', you strap down the backpack and hold it with the left arm, while the right is free. That takes a bit time, but not to much.

- Pushing the 'use key' you can take ammo, nades, or small weapons from the ground and put it in the pack.

- Pushing the 'reload key' you refill the pouches with ammo. Ammo of weapons you do not have stay in the pack, to keep free space in the pouches for more usefull ammo.

- You can also select and aim an one hand held weapon with the right hand, for self defense. You can use a pistol (pushing the pistol key), or a stockless SMG (Uzi, pushing the primary weapon key).

- You can also drop the pack by the 'drop key' and use your rifle, if needed. Than you can grab the pack again.

- If you have a sidegun in use and the pack in the left arm, you can deselect the gun by pushing the 'backpack key'.

- If your right arm is free (gun deselected), you deselect the backpack by the 'backpack key' (will take a bit time).
 

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