No indictment - Ferguson

Crotale said:

It isn't so much that guns look realistic, but the reality is that young kids have access to deadly weaponry. Cleveland is notorious for being one of the persistent cities that ends up on the top ten US list of cities with the worst violent crime rates. The police department has been the target of intense investigations on police brutality and use of excessive force.

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I know we have gangs of pre-teens selling drugs here and gang up in packs of 10-15 and mug people at knife point. The world is uglier than most Americans realize.

I'll be the last guy to defend cops, and a lot of the stuff police forces are doing is complete BS, but when did we get to a point where the normal reaction to police saying "stop, show your hands" is "F U pig!!!" ?

Crotale said:

I think you need to calm the fuck down. We are supposed to be having a civil conversation.

The problem with making a blanket statement that racism still exists on an institutional level is that depending on where you go and who you talk to, it exists anywhere from worse than Jim Crow to being literally non-existent. Inner city blacks get the brunt of what one can call racism. I am not quite sure that all discrimination linked to race is necessarily racism.

Claims that a black man with a black name is less likely to be hired than a white person with a white name sounds racist on the surface, but consider the business world. Many of today's younger black people not only have attitudes towards authority, which pose a discussion in and of itself, but also speak more in Ebonics than actual English. In the US, this can be a problem for businesses who cater to a wide range of customers.

Think about it from this perspective: Dell Computers brought much of its customer support back out of Asia because customers complained that they had trouble communicating with said customer support. This was not an issue of race, at least not in a way that was intended to be discriminatory, but I can certainly see how a person of Asian persuasion might be offended.

You say that police presence is not an issue in many of these neighborhoods? I have lived in one of these neighborhoods and what I said rings with a lot of truth. When I first moved to Las Vegas, there was a huge to do about excessive gang activity over in the area where most poor blacks lived. They wanted the city to do something done about the gangs. The city claimed their law enforcement officers were frustrated with the lack of cooperation when they were called to investigate violent crimes in these neighborhoods. While many blacks accused the cops of lies, a strong contingent admitted that the black community tended to protect its own against outsiders, and that included many individuals lying to the police about activity they witnessed. This type of self-protection runs more rampant in black neighborhoods than in most other minority or white neighborhoods.

I have yet to say that things are all equal or all peachy, have I? No, I am addressing some issues that I feel contribute to the problem, but some of you are so full of yourselves to listen to a goddamned thing anyone else has to say if they are blowing sunshine up your asses. I knew this would go to shit once anyone outside of the main circlejerk provided any input.

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I'm going to point something out to you, and then I'm done.

You literally said: okay, sure, it SOUNDS racist that these two applications, written by the exact same person, with the same qualifications, and the same same language, and only the name changed, are treated differently (and this is where it's funny), but think about it: black people don't speak english, they only speak ebonics.

That is flat out racism. Instead of judging the person by their merits (the actual resume), you have said that they should instead be judged off of A PERCEPTION of black people not being able to speak "actual English." You actually said that. You actually said that. When you prejudge a person based solely off of a perception of what you think that an entire race does, that is racism. Cut and dried.

But it's okay, because you came up with a metaphor that breaks down immediately, about how the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of people having difficulty communicating with non-native speakers is the same as a PERCEIVED idea that black people, in general apparently, don't speak "actual English."

Again: actual problem with non-native speakers communicating with native speakers (which happens in any language), versus a perceived problem in a resume with none of such perceived problems--one based on actual customer feedback, the other based on literally nothing other than a stereotype.

As for your last bit, about how no one listens to you: this is because you say racist shit, and then run around dismissing actual evidence with half-assed anecdotes that are backed up by nothing. Oh look, the police, who have been systematically abusing a population, now wants the population to help them: I wonder why they aren't speaking to the police...hmmm...

Seriously, dude. Stop. I'm not saying you are necessarily racist, because I don't know you. What I AM saying is that you're saying super-racist things (seriously. Again. You literally just said that the black person with the impressive resume wouldn't be able to speak "actual English" YOU LITERALLY SAID THIS TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING WHEN CLAIMING IT WASN'T RACIST) and you need to stop, check yourself, and come back when you can make reasonable arguments.

But yeah, me telling you to fuck off because of you dismissing an entire argument as guilt is the problem.

That's the thing with a LOT of white people. They're racist, but truly don't think they are.

You're right, fucker, you do not know me.

The "white guilt" in all caps was poking fun at your extreme attitude and use of all caps. Honestly, you do little to give me the impression that you have anything important to say that I should read when you focus on such a benign comment.

I knew that coming to BUF OT that there was no way a conversation could take place without any of you fucking assholes taking personal jabs at someone. You truly have to be a clueless moron to wonder why America cannot have this conversation, for it isn't people who express a multitude of perspectives, but it is the group of jackwagons who have to turn everything into a personal insult that sour it for everyone else.

Regarding the hiring issue, did it ever occur to you that these biases are not applied to actual applicants who are interviewed, that many black interviewees get hired over their white counterparts?

The language issue isn't one of foreigners learning English, but children of families who have been in this country for generations lacking the desire to speak proper English. One can hardly blame employers for overlooking young individuals who do not speak in a professional manner. I would expect my employees to pronounce the word as "act" and not "ack." If that makes me a racist, then being a racist has such an extremely low threshold that it takes the wind right out of that charge's sails.

Al, I hate to break it to you, but most people have bias against other groups but refuse to admit it. I can say that from my perspective, people who simply want to point at other people's biases are unwilling to take a hard look at their own.

Ferguson had nothing to do with racism until the family of the decedent decided that it did. The grand jury decision and evidence failed to prove bias, and the federal investigation is being touted as lip service intended to appease the protesters, same as the "federal case" against Zimmerman failed after he was accused of killing Martin because he was black.

The funny thing is, I know how you feel. I used to be in your position. Conservative and ignorant. Afraid "moochers" were going to take my hard-earned money. Thought Americans should "speak English." The poor should pull themselves up by the bootstraps, etc. But I grew up, got a clue, opened my eyes, found some empathy (being raised by a black man since the age of 8 helps) and a bit of tolerance. I actually started paying attention to Jesus' message, not my interpretation (or Fox News') of it (I know! Christian progressives exist!). I realized my version of the world/country was selfish and just flat-out wrong. Like someone telling you the sky is green with polka dots. It's just wrong.

So, tell me again how I need to "take a hard look at their own."

oh! oh!
lemme try and guess how Crotale will respond before he does.

Al said:

The funny thing is, I know how you feel. I used to be in your position. Conservative and ignorant. Afraid "moochers" were going to take my hard-earned money. Thought Americans should "speak English." The poor should pull themselves up by the bootstraps, etc. But I grew up, got a clue, opened my eyes, found some empathy (being raised by a black man since the age of 8 helps) and a bit of tolerance. I actually started paying attention to Jesus' message, not my interpretation (or Fox News') of it (I know! Christian progressives exist!). I realized my version of the world/country was selfish and just flat-out wrong. Like someone telling you the sky is green with polka dots. It's just wrong.

So, tell me again how I need to "take a hard look at their own."

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Just calling it like I see it. You want to call me racist because I don't buy into the myth that whites are purposefully and institutionally holding down blacks. I ask you to reconsider your perspective on how you judge others who disagree with you and how that affects our nation's ability to initiate meaningful discourse on race relations.

I grew up in the direct aftermath of a very racist south. I saw how white people treated black people, and when I was old enough to start figuring it out, I had to face the fact that I was raised in a racist environment. I have spent my lifetime trying to look at individuals and judge them on their own actions and not their skin color, but when I keep getting lumped in with a group by the other group, it makes me wonder why I bother going through the efforts and come away with one single fact: I can do better, no matter what others do.

Maybe you are one of those fortunate crackers who has never been accused of calling a black person a nigger, even though you were actually trying to show them common courtesy. As a young adult, I was member of the Strategic Air Command's Inspector General's office. Anyone who knows anything about the military knows this organization is one that deals directly with organizational sexual abuse cases, discrimination and overall mission effectiveness of these organizational units. To have been a target of such an allegation, I was very glad that I had my superior officer at my three o'clock when I stepped out in front of a moving vehicle in a parking lot. The driver, a black sergeant, stopped and I waved, saying, I'm sorry." He let us proceed, but less than fifteen minutes later, my commander had a call from the sergeant's commander, complaining that I had called his NCO a nigger and gave him a middle finger type of gesture. Who knows why the guy could not have addressed the situation on the spot and we could have resolved it right there, but because he had to press the issue through the command structure all due to the organization I belonged to, we both probably walked away from the incident with a bit more suspicion and a little less faith in others.

It isn't any white person's fault that Michael Brown robbed that store, pushed the clerk and then had an attitude with a cop, ending with a physical encounter where his actions led directly to his death. Blacks in Ferguson, by and large, do not vote yet they want to say that their government doesn't represent them. While they might be able to make a reasonable argument that they feel the system is broken, do you think we would have a black president if Barack Obama gave up because he thought the system was broken? Hell no, he got himself involved and used his power to vote, to participate in our governmental process, and to do more than expect whitey to fix it all for him.

Sure, there is individual discrimination, bias and and some cases, pure racism, but if you only want to thrown the blame on an entire group and never hold the other accountable as well, then you will never get to the root of the problem. I feel that all sides of this issue have truths that are the core of their beliefs and actions connected to race relations, and everyone should be heard, even if their concerns seem contrived. That is why I have no issue with folks protesting the deaths of Brown and Garner, but I do take umbrage with those persons who riot and loot in the name of "justice."

Jacks:Revenge said:

http://i.imgur.com/vedw0RO.jpg

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How cute, Jacks digging a stupid hole. Good luck with that, bruh.

Crotale said:

You want to call me racist because...

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You did that yourself with your own posts.

I love this. Absolutely love it. You don't seem to have any understanding of what you're saying. Let me say it again: you're saying EXTREMELY racist things. This does not require me to know you, it requires me to simply look at what you're saying. As I said before, I didn't call you racist, I pointed out that you need to look at what you're saying.

You didn't though, so I've come back for more fun.

Crotale said:

You're right, fucker, you do not know me.

The "white guilt" in all caps was poking fun at your extreme attitude and use of all caps. Honestly, you do little to give me the impression that you have anything important to say that I should read when you focus on such a benign comment.

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I do use caps sometimes to emphasize words. That has nothing to do, however, with a well-reasoned and thoughtfully composed argument being written off by you with literally nothing other than calling it white guilt.

I've excised some boring stuff so we can get to the fun part:

Regarding the hiring issue, did it ever occur to you that these biases are not applied to actual applicants who are interviewed, that many black interviewees get hired over their white counterparts?

The language issue isn't one of foreigners learning English, but children of families who have been in this country for generations lacking the desire to speak proper English. One can hardly blame employers for overlooking young individuals who do not speak in a professional manner. I would expect my employees to pronounce the word as "act" and not "ack." If that makes me a racist, then being a racist has such an extremely low threshold that it takes the wind right out of that charge's sails.

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LOVE. IT. Please tell me what the statistics are for people hiring blacks are. I would love to see this completely pulled out of your ass supposition that they get hired more often. I mean, seriously: you keep saying things like they're true. Would it kill you to look for five minutes on the internet? I did. Guess what? There are consistent examples of systematic oppression.

You then go back to saying the racist thing. Dude. Stop it. If the application is the same, and the application displays a person speaking in clear, consistent English--ie: when the FACTS (caps--must be my guilt) say that the person is not only qualified, but able to communicate their qualifications in a clear and consistent manner in "actual English," yet you decide that because they have a black name, they won't behave in a professional manner, that is just fucking pure racism. It is you ignoring the facts (clear, concise, educated communication) in favor of a stereotype (all black people speak in "ebonics" and can't be professional).

It isn't expecting someone to behave professionally that makes a person racist. There's literally zero racist with that. If I were hiring a person and they spoke like that, I would certainly pass on them. That being said, REFUSING to even interview a person because you have made assumptions about their abilities based PURELY on their race is SUPER racist. There is not a single non-racist interpretation of what you have just said. Literally none.

Al, I hate to break it to you, but most people have bias against other groups but refuse to admit it. I can say that from my perspective, people who simply want to point at other people's biases are unwilling to take a hard look at their own.

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Sure. Most people have biases about many things, and they can be a problem. People of all races might have biases against other races (black to white, white to black, etc., etc.) or people have biases against certain regions, or accents, or schools, disabilities, religions, etc. Some of these biases are completely silly and never acted on, some are serious, etc. There is a wide variety of how people think, and all humans are flawed and prone to flawed acts of thinking. We should always be mindful of our own flaws and seek to correct them. I know that I am no paragon myself, and so I try to be thoughtful when engaging with groups that I have pre-formed opinions about (ugh. Libertarians...).

Here's the thing though: racism isn't just about the silly prejudgments we have, it is about the POWER we have to exploit them. And what we see, again and again, is systems of white people insulating themselves, where they are the ones who hold the power, discriminating in hiring, discriminating in schooling, in jail sentencing, etc. Individuals having prejudgmental thoughts is bad, but systems of people--THAT is hurtful as a society, and THAT is what we're talking about.

Ferguson had nothing to do with racism until the family of the decedent decided that it did. The grand jury decision and evidence failed to prove bias, and the federal investigation is being touted as lip service intended to appease the protesters, same as the "federal case" against Zimmerman failed after he was accused of killing Martin because he was black.

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Ferguson is not an ideal case to look at racism, but it has ALWAYS been about racism and the abuse of police power, because let's be honest, an unarmed kid was shot MANY times by a cop for...what? Some cigarillos? Walking in the street? Being rude? The ways in which people react to black people is different--more afraid, more violent, more reactionary, and we have dozens and dozens and dozens of examples of cops acting HORRIFICALLY, and nearly every time, getting away with it.

And that grand jury thing. Wow. Seriously. The prosecutor bent over backwards to make sure he wasn't indicted. This isn't about a jury not thinking there wasn't evidence enough to go to trial, it is about them being deceived so the cop got off. The problem is that there is a play of a trial, but it was obviously just a show, with the prosecutors wanting, from the get-go, to not prosecute. That isn't justice, that's a farce.

Office I worked at for a summer internship in an engineering firm that had employees representing many different cultures. Some of the blacks had a accent and said "ack" a lot, and some of the white guys had southern accents. The company also had plenty of Asians, Indians, and Arabs; mostly first generation with thick accents.

Did I ever think about it? No, since it didn't really effect anyone's work. Everyone understood each other and everyone was capable of understanding different dialects.

It never crossed my mind that in a business setting that accent should play an importand factor. Holy shit, that is fucked up. Any business that claims that it effects communication is bullshit. My internship was at an electric utility; communication was very important to the work. Oh no, the black guys said "I ackst them a question about...". Guess we have to fire them because nobody can use 1% of their brain to understand what they are saying. Their ability to keep the grid balanced has been compromised and despite spending years acquiring a talented team of system operators, engineers, programmers, and maintenance crew looks like its time to fire anyone who cannot speak only pure english words with accents as described in the oxford dictionary.

It would be like if a company in Britain refused to hire an American because our English is slightly different..."I cant stand the new American scientists in our lab, they all say Aluminium wrong!"

Brown was killed because he tried to take the officer's weapon, he struck the officer multiple times, he rushed the officer after he was already shot, all while being stoned. I am not sure Brown would have made the same decisions if he was not high, but we will never know. In case you missed it, all the evidence presented to the grand jury is here: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html. A prosecutor will not push a case he knows he cannot win, and to do so in order to appease the public is a genuine misuse of public resources. See: Zimmerman trial, as a perfect example of this type of bullshit.

Either you have selective comprehension or you are just dense, my claim was "many black interviewees get hired over their white counterparts?" Many. That is the operative word.

I also never said that employers who refuse to consider applicants based on ethnically black names are not racist. That said, it is a predetermined notion as there is no information provided that clarifies why the names were overlooked. To be more specific, the exercise in question failed to show that people with black names never got callbacks on resumes sent to employers, but they did need to send 50% more resumes to get that one callback. Does this readily indicate racial discrimination? One thing I noted form the report:

"One weakness of the study is that it simply measures callbacks for interviews, not whether an applicant gets the job and what the wage for a successful applicant would be. So the results cannot be translated into hiring rates or earnings. Another problem of the study is that newspaper ads represent only one channel for job search."

A note I want to focus on is that while there is enough evidence that minorities need to have a significantly increased amount to skills and knowledge to get hired and for upward mobility training, you don't hear complaints from the Asian or Hispanic communities to the scale as heard from the black community. Why is that?

Nightmare, I don't doubt your experience, but not all situations are the same. I cannot argue with what you are saying, but many employers find their companies in highly competitive environments where the ability to speak clear and concise English is a high priority for their employees. It doesn't mean these employers refuse to hire otherwise qualified employees with strong accents or dialects, but these applicants are often passed over. It is unfortunate, but I am not sure it is racism, as in intended to be racist in nature.

Having spent almost twenty years in California and Nevada combined, I have been exposed to thousands of Hispanics who speak both Spanish and English. Those who grew up in the States tend to have no overly obvious accent when speaking English; as a matter of fact, many speak excellent English with no accent or dialect. Since the vast majority of American blacks grow up here speaking English, many tend to speak the language very poorly due to cultural influence. In other words, they speak improper English by design. That cultural influence could be considered to be a factor that holds back many black job applicants and employees by making them look less attractive to employers.

The British mispronounce aluminum but many of us Americans pronounce Jaguar as "Jagwire" for some reason.

Crotale said:

In other words, they speak improper English by design.

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Just interrupting to point out the funniest thing you've said so far.
Remember, you're an American lecturing people on improper English.

Crotale said:

The British mispronounce aluminum

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What. The. Fuck.

Tell me you didn't just do this.

Balton said:

Just interrupting to point out the funniest thing you've said so far.
Remember, you're an American lecturing people on improper English.

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I wasn't lecturing anyone. The fact that I am an American has no bearing on whether I say, "He ain't did nuthin," versus, "He didn't do that."

-Jes- said:

What. The. Fuck.

Tell me you didn't just do this.

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Pardon me, but that was a joke. Either word is accepted worldwide.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/09/opinion/yang-mark-wahlberg/index.html?iref=obinsite


meh.

Thought this thread died some time ago.

Crotale said:

Pardon me, but that was a joke. Either word is accepted worldwide.

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Nah. The rest of the English speaking world thinks you sound stupid when you miss out a whole syllable.

dotnetbeast said:

Thought this thread died some time ago.

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Foul farts linger long.