Gears of War: Stereotyping?

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You chill dude ... I said what I had to say and meant every word of it ... you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to this issue ... not at all and your statements prove it. But hey this is one of those issues that usually creates lots of tension because white folks can never seem to come to grips with the truth. And to the idiot who said that Crysis stooped down to Epic's low level ... HAH once again it shows how little folks who are not black understand the black American culture. Martin Hawker is the other black character besides Prophet and he DOES NOT TALK like a rapper ... Damn you are dense if you can't see that or you really don't understand that black people don't come in just two flavors ... rap and non rap or as whites would say "Urban" blacks and "the good ones" ... and Hawkins is one of the millions who does not conform to any extreme depiction of blacks. He may use motion with his hands and say what you point out but he didn't sound like an ignorant ass rapper like Malcolm and Cole do. Just saying that shows your ignorance when it comes to this issue.

Anyway I have said all I need to and I know what folks I definitely won't be dealing with in the future (you bigoted scum have shown your real selves ... losers who don't understand sh!t about being black in America and I don't give a f@ck if you have a couple of idiots for friends who can't tell when they are being insulted a huge percentage of blacks do not act like the BS you prejudiced folks seem to believe we do ... talk about being led around by the nose by folks with power ) ... issues like this really show folks true colors and now that I have witnessed such bigoted behavior I know I will never look at Epic the same again. If they are not going to make any statememt about this or do some character revisions then not only will I never buy another Epic game (just like I don't buy Rockstar games ... EVER!) ... and then I will do what I can to really turn the spotlight on their insulting stereotypical roles. I know one thing ... they sure didn't make Dom your stereotypical Mexican dude ... hmmm that says alot right there. Dom, a latin character, talks just fine and acts fine too ... pretty much like any white dude, but not Cole ... no no no .. he had to be the epitome of the big dumb gun toting slang talking ex ball playing black male stereotype. He couldn't be in some other line of work where he would get noticed .. say inventing something important or anything ELSE. I'm out ...

Oh yeah one question ... are any of you folks black men who deal with this kind of sh!t on a daily basis? Or are you just talking out the side of your asses because it sounds so good to hear such lame sh!t oozing out of your open pie hole? I'm serious because most of you know on this thread don't know what the hell you are talking about.
:catfight:

I find it particularly interesting that UT3 has been out for months and, in all of your complaining about the game, you have not once mentioned the whole stereotypical black male crap until now. Now it's such a big issue with you you feel the need to go around waving a banner saying "Epic Must Apologize!"
And calling people bigots for not seeing your point of view just shows your narrow minded view of the world.

I certainly hope "Your Out" because you will not be missed.
 

Anuban

Your reward is that you are still alive
Apr 4, 2005
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^^ Whatever makes you feel better .. And lets get this right ... I am not calling people bigots based on if they agree with me or not. Its what they are saying that earns them that label. I always felt this way about Malcolm and especially Cole but didn't have a strong enough reason to say something until now. And especially when I see all these insane statements on this thread ... how could I not speak out?
 
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U

Unregistered

Guest
Dear lord. It's people like this that are the problem. They see a problem when there isn't one and make matter worse for everybody. The fact that they see Coletrain as a negative stereotype even though he is based on a real person makes me think they see racism in everything. I lose all respect for people like this.

A black voice actor, plays a black character, that sounds like how the person speaks and portrays himself publicly... somehow that is racist and EPIC should make a statement. Really? REALLY??? That is the stupidest thing I've read all week. It's not like the other characters were any different, they were all shown in the same light.

Not everybody talks the same, if they did, the world would be a boring place. Showing that some people are different isn't racism, it's reality. Some black people I work with (making games) have similar cadence and vocabulary as Coletrain, and nobody sees them as being inferior for that, it's just like having a British accent. If we used them for voice-work in our games would we be racist? Different cultures sound different, that is something that should be celebrated, not seen as being racist.

Plus there are cliches used on all races, you see hick-inbred white characters, snooty uptight english people, crazy bandolier wearing mexicans, terrorist arabs, etc, so saying developers stereotype black people is ignorant and short sighted. Heck, on most of the message boards I read, Coletrain was their favorite character in the game BECAUSE of his attitude.

The amount of sheer unadultered ignorance in this thread is typical of why the problem exist in the first place. You have ignorant statements like because he is a ball player that explains why he acts that way ... WOW .. talk about the dumbass statement of the year award that just reeks of bigotry and prejudicial thinking. Are you kidding me ... all black athletes do not talk like they are trying to make a rap album thank you very much.

You are a good example of the people I was talking about.

What on earth makes you think because one black character speaks a certain way that it is a negative reflection of ALL black people? Should white people from the north be offended when they hear a white southern accent in a game, because southerners talk differently and don't represent all whites? It's the same thing. There are countless cliches used on all races, that isn't meant as a slight, but a reflection and celebration of the wide diversity of cultures.

People are different. Showing everybody acting, sounding the same is worse than showing a wide array of the various cultures.
 

Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
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You chill dude ... I said what I had to say and meant every word of it ... you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to this issue ... not at all and your statements prove it. But hey this is one of those issues that usually creates lots of tension because white folks can never seem to come to grips with the truth. And to the idiot who said that Crysis stooped down to Epic's low level ... HAH once again it shows how little folks who are not black understand the black American culture.

Well someone has shown his true nature as a racist. Generalizing about all white people. Very nice... what if I made a generalization about black people. How would that make you feel? Racism goes both ways! During our debate I never insulted you but you have constantly insulted others. Generalizing about white people coming from a guy who feels black people are being portrayed in games unfairly. Can all the white people on this forum have an apology for your generalization?

As long as you make assumtions based on race in any way then you are keeping racism alive. I have always looked at other races as they are just different from me in appearence and get to know that person and nothing else. You disgust me and make me appreciate the kind black people I know who have left racism completely behind even more. A little less then half my friends are black and I never heard any crap like this from them. Race was never an issue, we were too busy getting drunk in highschool. Oh was that racist cause I was getting drunk with some black friends of mine... Oh I didn't mean to imply black people are drunks. I mean thats how easily you seem to leap to label racism.
 
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Armagon917

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Mar 6, 2008
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ITT: ****storm of ignorance.

Directed at who? I think my statements have been correct. I just don't know who exactly you are referring to is all. I do make mistakes and if I have made any could you please point them out. If this is even directed at me? No big deal either way... Oh and Temba his arms wide. At Tanagra of course. TNG best show ever! Cool Geordi LaForge is black and he's a well spoken Chief Engineer. A fav character of mine although when he talks about something serious he always kinda whispered. Ever notice that. I think thats just Levar Burton's style. Anuban theres no way you can call me racist cause I grew up watching TNG and LaForge was the sh** although I hate Romulans but who doesn't. haha
 
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_Lynx

Strategic Military Services
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Dec 5, 2003
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Oh yeah, now next time developers have to make sure that their heroes are not fall under some racial stereotype, but rather be a generic representation of the people of the given race. And everyone should speak Oxford English, cause otherwise one can guess where these characters are from and, God forbid, comment on that.
 

Lethargy

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Feb 24, 2006
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Directed at who? I think my statements have been correct. I just don't know who exactly you are referring to is all. I do make mistakes and if I have made any could you please point them out. If this is even directed at me? No big deal either way... Oh and Temba his arms wide. At Tanagra of course. TNG best show ever! Cool Geordi LaForge is black and he's a well spoken Chief Engineer. A fav character of mine although when he talks about something serious he always kinda whispered. Ever notice that. I think thats just Levar Burton's style. Anuban theres no way you can call me racist cause I grew up watching TNG and LaForge was the sh** although I hate Romulans but who doesn't. haha

Really at most everyone arguing, no one can fully understand the perspectives of others and this applies to racism as well. Judging others as racist and throwing out accusations just makes oneself look ignorant.
Shaka, when the walls fell. Geordi was pretty cool, I liked him a lot in Reading Rainbow as well :)
 
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MonsOlympus

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Plus there are cliches used on all races, you see hick-inbred white characters, snooty uptight english people, crazy bandolier wearing mexicans, terrorist arabs, etc, so saying developers stereotype black people is ignorant and short sighted. Heck, on most of the message boards I read, Coletrain was their favorite character in the game BECAUSE of his attitude.

QFT and you know what Im sick of, this crappy white boy urban wannabe's in movies. Why cant they ever be kewl people instead of comedy relief, Im sure there are hardarse white gangta homies out there as well.

Honestly I dont take offense to it, its just part of the world we live in. Theres a homie stereotype for all of us not just blacks!

But hey lets mention prey because its got indians in there :)

Dom, a latin character, talks just fine and acts fine too ... pretty much like any white dude, but not Cole ... no no no .. he had to be the epitome of the big dumb gun toting slang talking ex ball playing black male stereotype.

I actually found that comment about handing people basketballs instead of math degree's offensive. Does he think that people who are good at maths or are programmers are no good at sport? Talk about negative stereotypes. Just fueling his own fire honestly!

But hey, I was treated poorly at TAFE because I was an aspiring game designer doing traditional graphics design, there was no other more relevant courses to take. Infact they were trying to get me to become a fine artist when its not what I wanted to do, or what I was good at, such is life.

And now because I can Im gonna mention the Tiger Woods games, where you can play as a black golfer (zomg STEREOTYPE) sif there arnt lots of game dev's out there who would love a pro golfers paycheck :lol:
 
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Armagon917

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Mar 6, 2008
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Really at most everyone arguing, no one can fully understand the perspectives of others and this applies to racism as well. Judging others as racist and throwing out accusations just makes oneself look ignorant.
Shaka, when the walls fell. Geordi was pretty cool, I liked him a lot in Reading Rainbow as well :)

I agree, I have no idea what it is like to be black in American society but I was just saying generalizations are racist IMO. I really think that nothing good can come from this thread and I said Racism, Politics and Religion are heated issues where nothing good happens and is fertile ground for argument not debate. And you are right I shouldn't have called anyone a racist I should've just pointed out that generalizations are bad as Anuban is likely not racist but IMO just wrong on the issue... well from my perspective.

Yeah Levar Burton's career was kinda wasted, I mean he did TNG and Reading Rainbow which were great for kids and Sci Fi addicts like myself but he had and has the potential to do a lot more. Actually a lot of people from TNG do. Brent Spiner needs more roles as well. He did extremely well in season 4 on Enterprise. Sorry off topic.
 
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hal

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Nov 24, 1998
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I think it's time to post this:

rac·ism
thinsp.png
Audio Help/ˈreɪ
thinsp.png
sɪz
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əm/
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uh
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m]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Generalizations and stereotyping are totally different things than racism.
 

MonsOlympus

Active Member
May 27, 2004
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(anthropology)

Some argue that although "race" is a valid taxonomic concept in other species, it cannot be applied to humans.[3] Many scientists have argued that race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, have many exceptions, have many gradations, and that the numbers of races delineated vary according to the culture making the racial distinctions; thus they reject the notion that any definition of race pertaining to humans can have taxonomic rigour and validity.[4] Today most scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". Many contend that while racial categorizations may be marked by phenotypic or genotypic traits, the idea of race itself, and actual divisions of persons into races, are social constructs.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

I kinda go with this one myself, we are all the human race (Homosapiens). Kinda like all dogs would be ummz canidae, but hey there is various breeds of dogs which cant cross-breed I think also I think some cross breeds are born steril. Yeah which ever way you look at it I guess.

Going by that description though Hal I dont think Ive seen much if any racism (ww2 games perhaps :lol:) in games. Unless ofcoarse Im a racist for believing the space marines are superior to the eldar :lol:
 
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Lethargy

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Feb 24, 2006
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I think it's time to post this:



Generalizations and stereotyping are totally different things than racism.

Totally different is going a little far, they are both parts of racism.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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I think it's time to post this:
...
Generalizations and stereotyping are totally different things than racism.

They are different, but some people (like Anuban) seem to think that stereotypes makes the road to racism 'easy'.

While there's a certain bit of truth in that kind of reasoning ... it's also true that people tend to have a brain that tells them that they shouldn't take anything they see at face-value (at least I hope they've been taught to do so).

Claiming stereotyping in media leads to racism is like claiming video-games are responsible for violence ...
IMHO it's merely the final push a racist needs.
I doubt it is the #1 reason unless his own experience has shown that person that n*ggers really ought to be shot on sight for the good of society.
 
Apr 11, 2006
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There's nothing wrong with stereotypes. There's something wrong with your storytelling technique if that's all you can accomplish. That said, every single book, television series, movie, game, or other piece of character driven narrative fiction can be held guilty for stereotyping someone, somehow. Is criticizing Gears of War on this front particularly valid? Not in my opinion.

I'd much rather just see game developers try to stop incorporating current-fad behavior, phraseology, and mannerisms into their games. I prefer to be able to enjoy games without feeling like they're pandering.
 

«BuA»Lurker_71

Thë Möñkëÿ Kïñg
Dec 15, 2002
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Wha?
There's nothing wrong with stereotypes. There's something wrong with your storytelling technique if that's all you can accomplish. That said, every single book, television series, movie, game, or other piece of character driven narrative fiction can be held guilty for stereotyping someone, somehow. Is criticizing Gears of War on this front particularly valid? Not in my opinion.

Then Draco Malfoy was Harry Potters version of Nazism?
White, blonde-haired, blue-eyed believer in pure-magical families?

Kinda scary to think about something like that in a so-called children's book, eh?
Then again; it is something we as a race (the "human race", that is) have to deal with daily.

My personal philosophy on ending racism is this; All colors should breed until there is only one color left.

Of course that would only work for about 5 seconds... because people would find another reason to hate each other.
So I guess we just have to face it; the human race is just not intelligent enough to allow personal prejudices to be forgotten, and mistakes to be laid to rest... because the one thing we are truly good at is hating each other.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
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That said, every single book, television series, movie, game, or other piece of character driven narrative fiction can be held guilty for stereotyping someone, somehow. Is criticizing Gears of War on this front particularly valid? Not in my opinion.

I feel sad for you. You're watching terrible movies, playing terrible games and reading terrible books. Anything that settles for stereotypes is artistically lacking and lazy. Read Knockemstiff for a non-stereotypical look at the brutal side of characters from very small, midwestern towns. Pollock is able to paint characters close to a stereotype without giving in to it and they soar as real people. Play Bioshock. (Keep in mind that I'm only using non-spoiler info here) Atlus is Irish, but that's beside the point. He doesn't cater to any sort of a predefined template. Watch Babel. You have rich kids, poor kids, deaf people, white people, Arabic people, Mexican people, etc., that all have a complexity that is not in any way a stereotype.

Back into the fray.

People need to keep in mind that the comment SPECIFICALLY says:
Here's the thing: Cole Train on his own, no harm no foul. But what is Cole Train? Cole Train is basically like every other effin' black character in a video game

Epic doesn't need to apologize, it's not a horrible depiction, it's not insulting, it's not derogative. It is simply how nearly every single black male is portrayed in videogames. With MINIMAL exceptions, black men are not very well educated, from either the ghetto or a glamor job (football, rapper, whatever), or both, and speak in hip-hop jargon. Yes, there are plenty of people out there like this. No, it's not necessarily offensive. The problem is that nearly every-single-black character is portrayed the same way. I can only think of a handful of black characters in videogames that DON'T fall into this.

The problem, and this is why he refers to it as "casual racism" is that when you view the medium and almost every single person is being portrayed as the same thing, you have effectively said (in very small, non-offensive, not-meant-to-be-racist-in-any-way pieces, acumulated) that almost all black men are this way. Again. This isn't because the depictions are BAD, or necessarily wrong or even at all offensive. The problem is that they are all the same.

Stop calling each other racists, stop calling the devs racist, stop all of the bickering like kids. You have to take a step back, realize that these innocuous characters (and, come on, who DIDN'T like Coletrain? He's cool!) do paint an overall same picture which is harmful.

The moral isn't to get all in arms and point fingers, but to encourage (with yo wallet) developers to have developed characters that defy stereotypical behaviors, that are more well rounded, etc. Buy games which explore character in psychologically mature ways(such as HL2, Bioshock, Fahrenheit(Indigo Prophecy in teh US), etc.).

That isn't TOO much to ask is it?

~Jason
 
Apr 11, 2006
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I feel sad for you. You're watching terrible movies, playing terrible games and reading terrible books. Anything that settles for stereotypes is artistically lacking and lazy. Read Knockemstiff for a non-stereotypical look at the brutal side of characters from very small, midwestern towns. Pollock is able to paint characters close to a stereotype without giving in to it and they soar as real people. Play Bioshock. (Keep in mind that I'm only using non-spoiler info here) Atlus is Irish, but that's beside the point. He doesn't cater to any sort of a predefined template. Watch Babel. You have rich kids, poor kids, deaf people, white people, Arabic people, Mexican people, etc., that all have a complexity that is not in any way a stereotype.

Uh, what?
I feel sorry for you, because you feel the need to object to an obvious observation that if you want to object to something for being stereotypical, you can. Even if your characters are a mutant clowns travelling through time on a flying toaster, the human mind is clever enough to find ways that it fits some preconceived stereotype if it wants to (in this case we could easily start with the-most-absurd-thing-you-can-think-of and pick up steam from there).


Of course that would only work for about 5 seconds... because people would find another reason to hate each other.
So I guess we just have to face it; the human race is just not intelligent enough to allow personal prejudices to be forgotten, and mistakes to be laid to rest... because the one thing we are truly good at is hating each other.

If you're not going to believe your own beliefs, who will? Is it even possible to be free of personal prejudice as a unique and non-omniscient intelligent entity?