3Dbuzz top 10 finalist so far
- Thread starter Ignotium
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Ah, thanks guys 
The one thing I can say about this contest is that it brought in new mappers and maps for all of us. So while I may not agree with the results i can be thankful for the content.
The one thing I can say about this contest is that it brought in new mappers and maps for all of us. So while I may not agree with the results i can be thankful for the content.
There is a lot more to fun than gameplay and replayability. I'm guessing you haven't read reviews or personally reviewed a lot of maps.
Gameplay: How well the map flows, how fluid the layout is, how well strategies and tactics can be employed.
Replayability: How entertaining the level is. This is separate from fun because even terrible normally not fun maps can be very replayable (CTF-Thorns/CTF-Romra for example are awful maps that are really not fun in general, but are quite replayable).
Fun: How much enjoyment and involvement a level gives you. Technically, this is probably mostly "style" points, but I called it fun because I will often play crappy awful maps just because they have some enjoyable element (the Cowbell on w0rf's ColaWars, the Pressure chamber on DM-Pressure, the conveyors in DM-Conveyor, for example).
Also, I wan't really trying to judge the maps based on their individual merits. The scores I gave them related as much to the quality of the maps they were competing against as anything else.
Frankly, that is one of the biggest problems with the map. The majority of spawns are outside, and the map guides you to paths that take you outside. I almost never went inside the building at all.alex said:
As I touched on in my short review, I quite like the idea of jumping around the outside of the spaceship on different pieces that are protruding from it, I thought that the idea of it was very clever, however the execution is just not there, and compared to many other levels entered into the contest, Nimius is extremely poor.
This is exactly what I said, you only criticized the way you would play these maps, but you haven't considered anything else like how much the map looks or play different of any other map on the market, how it is visually, etc.
Please, don't guess I never reviewed any maps before.
All that... is "the how it plays", but it's only one aspect of a map. So if the map has negative points in that category, you bash it three times instead of just one.
I agree about the lack of tactics, etc for Nimius, but the rest of the work is making the balance. If you give not more than 2/5 to Nimius, I shouldn't give more points to the majority of the Original UT3 maps.
Please, don't guess I never reviewed any maps before.
All that... is "the how it plays", but it's only one aspect of a map. So if the map has negative points in that category, you bash it three times instead of just one.
I agree about the lack of tactics, etc for Nimius, but the rest of the work is making the balance. If you give not more than 2/5 to Nimius, I shouldn't give more points to the majority of the Original UT3 maps.
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What should it get points for? If I had reviewed it according to your standards, it only would have gotten one or two points more than it did, probably. The map has nothing going for it other than an original idea (execution is awful so originality as a whole = no).
And yes, some of the retail maps weren't great, but they also had a much more consistent design and well made layout than Nimius did. That is one of it's biggest problems - lack of consistency.
And yes, some of the retail maps weren't great, but they also had a much more consistent design and well made layout than Nimius did. That is one of it's biggest problems - lack of consistency.
What would it change?... maybe a LOT.
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Add a 0.0 to 5 pts for the Performance [modif, wrong criteria]
Add a 0.0 to 5 pts for the Originality of the whole map compared to what already exists on the market [what makes it unique, fresh and new]
Add a 0.0 to 5 pts on the how they been able to work on their own mistakes by improving their map while listening to their feedbacks. It's the testing process quality.
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I'm sorry, but it is 50% of the actual complete review now... like if you jsut review half of the map content. So it is important...
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What would it change?... maybe a LOT.
-------------------------------------------
Add a 0.0 to 5 pts for the Performance [modif, wrong criteria]
Add a 0.0 to 5 pts for the Originality of the whole map compared to what already exists on the market [what makes it unique, fresh and new]
Add a 0.0 to 5 pts on the how they been able to work on their own mistakes by improving their map while listening to their feedbacks. It's the testing process quality.
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I'm sorry, but it is 50% of the actual complete review now... like if you jsut review half of the map content. So it is important...
Just for your interest, a 8192uu long and 128uu high corridor with crusher movers coming out randomly from the ceiling is different from "anything from the market", that doesn't mean it's a good map.
This isn't a game design contest, this is level design. We weren't asked to create a new gametype with new rules and all, we were asked to create a DeathMatch map.
Any map can be played in DM. But is every playable map a good DM map? Hell no. There's a number of factors that can make the difference between a playable and good map, and originality has minimal importance between those. No matter how original and how much you pretty it up with orgasmic static meshes, a giant rotating sphere with playerstarts and redeemers scattered randomly on it's surface will never be a good DM map.
Things that matters much more in a map are the layout, the item placement, the flow. After those there's performance. Only then you can think about visuals and originality. When you connect to a server to play a bit of Duel, do you do that to masturbate on Static Meshes or to have a good match? Would you keep playing or ask for a map switch if you get 5 FPS average on the map that you're playing?
Originality can stil be implemented into maps, but it still has to keep in mind good gameplay. The pressure chamber of DM-Pressure in the original UT was a good original change from the other DMs. A lift that takes 15 seconds to bring you to a powerup without any other access isn't a good original change. It all boils down to keep a good gameplay. It's hard to screw up a map visually-wise, nobody will bitch if you have a rather bare wall in an incredibly detailed map. But you'd be surprised of how easy it's to screw up a map gameplay-wise, not being careful in item placement can turn quickly a good layout in an unplayable map.
That's why people give more recognition to gameplay, it's much harder to pull off correctly and it's much more important than things like visuals or originality.
It's very important to think of gameplay first. You'll see people playing maps with bad visuals but good gameplay, but not vice-versa. We are playing a game, not looking at a dynamic slideshow of beautiful locations.
^^^ Absolutely ... I could not have said it better myself ... that is why I know for a fact you were robbed in this contest. Your level is one of my fav new levels and its a crime that it didn't even make it to the top 10 while levels like Shiota are rewarded for being unplayable DM maps with little flow and no apparently little thought to item placement ... its an art project ... not a good DM map for the reasons you stated. It pains me to see this contest so flagrantly disregard their own rules and playability of the maps on average systems. If my system is struggling with some of these I can only imagine how other players are trying to play this.
Thanks, I'm happy to know that someone would have seen my map belonging to the top 10
The judging for this contest has been rather weird. It's their contest so they can pick who they want, but there have been lots of mappers who put lots of effort in their maps so a fair choice (considering that it's 3DBuzz, not some random website) would have been better.
For example I really wonder what's their definition of Average system. In the top 10 there are 5 maps that are optimized very badly in comparison to Retail maps: Citadel and Str8Control are completely unplayable, Shrift is very heavy while Calibrah and WhiteRealm could have used A LOT more optimization while they're still somwhow playable (Guys, the LOD settings have been added for a reason, it makes me cry seeing these maps lag a lot just because the authors kept all those water or snow effects also on Low Detail mode).
One might argue that the "Average system" definition is subjective. Then just take the retail UT 3 maps and check if the contest maps plays as well as those, simple.
I've nothing to argue about the visual quality or originality of the Top ten maps, but the other 3 judging factors (of which gameplay and performance are WAY more important than visuals and originality) have been skipped if you ask me. Now, since I'm in a whiny bitch mood, I'll tell my opinion about the top ten
Of the top ten, the only map that I enjoy playing and would want to keep in the rotation is Xenon. Good enough gameplay, good enough visuals, good performance.
Calibrah and WhiteRealm could be improved a lot in powerup placement and performance, but otherwise they're pretty good too.
SteamTemple could have been scaled down a bit and requires some more cover and connectivity (and removing the Invincibility from the Powerup machine cycle), but it's quite good too (and I was surprised of how well it ran on my machine with all those nice effects and moving stuff).
Shrift requires way better performance, more connectivity in the layout and generally a better attention for flow since it's not a real pleasure to play right now. Looks gorgeus, but the gameplay is rather boring.
Nimius is probably the most annoying map in the bunch, its layout is extremely confusing and looks like platforms scattered around randomly. LowGrav is hitscan-dominated enough even without forcing the players to jump around to follow the layout. There's also few cover. Between the platformy layout, the monotony in colors (sometimes it's pretty hard to see a platform between all that deco), the random window colors and the changing gravity this map seems to be thought to confuse players.
Citadel has a huge layout, in the bad sense unfortunately. For the most part gameplay consists in walking for hours trying to avoid snipers and trying to reach vehicles.
Str8Control is big, but it lags so much that I wasn't even able to play it properly on the lowest settings possible. At the normal settings on which I play the retail maps on this map literally freezes the game for several seconds when I turn the mouse around. For what I was able to see the layout isn't anything special, especially the flow could be improved. There are also too many powerups.
Shiota has a good atmosphere, but the layout is extremely simple and consists in long corridors. There's extremely few Z-Axis, the gameplay in this map is basically walking around in the huge corridors trying to find someone to shoot at.
Ebb has a boring gameplay too, huge walks and corridors but now with more sniping and open spaces. It also looks pretty bad.
Even judging basing on the quality of update posts, some of these maps had very few posts which basically consisted in pics of the map without explaining much. Some of those maps were already ready before entering the contest, so basically the mappers just deleted parts of the map to show how it was before.
Well, did I learn something from this contest? Yeah, fill the maps with visual details and you're OK.
Anyway I'm turning my update posts for the contest in a "tutorial" so my effort will not be wasted. Once I finished ordering them I will post it on my website. It will take a while, since there's more than 50000 characters spread on around 40 posts.
I could not have said it better :tup:, but I'd call this 'gameplay' rather than fun. Maps with best gameplay (which can be judged objectively) are the most fun ones from my point of view, but I feel that some people might not think this way (gameplay=fun) because the gameplay of maps like Wootabulous and AndAction is not on par with the popularity they got...
Well, it seems that some people thought a map with randomly placed AVRiLs and ShapedCarges to be more fun than Classic LuvStudd material! 
Yeah, says you.
This only goes to show that everyone wants something different out of a map. Me personally, I value creativity the most. That's right, most!
I get more enjoyment out of a map that does something new, even if it may have some gameplay issues or not look as a good as some other maps.
Does that make me right? Does that make all creative maps superior to old school maps?
No. It's just my personal preference.
I feel out-numbered on these forums though.. hehehe
Yeah, says you.
This only goes to show that everyone wants something different out of a map. Me personally, I value creativity the most. That's right, most!
I get more enjoyment out of a map that does something new, even if it may have some gameplay issues or not look as a good as some other maps.
Does that make me right? Does that make all creative maps superior to old school maps?
No. It's just my personal preference.
I feel out-numbered on these forums though.. hehehe
That's actually not all that unusual. I think it all depends on what you want to get out of your game and how you like to play it.
Those playing mostly offline will probably value unique environments moreso than than those who play mostly online where the emphasis is almost squarely on gameplay.
I know when people started mapping for Unreal, the scene centered very heavily upon creating unique environments and just finding out what they could do with the editor - and people ate it up. With each subsequent release, the demand has moved more towards creating highly playable levels that conformed to how the game was being played online.
Unfortunately, Game Design and Level Design are the same thing. Yes, by years they specialized the job, but the role of designing is to make a creatively fun experience. The Game Design difines the main tools & the main rules to play with as a Level Designer. Dependin of the project the freedom, the Level Designer is free to improve the experience the way he wants it. It's a contest, you are totally free. If you would be working on a game with specific constraints, then it's different.
"That's why people give more recognition to gameplay..."
It's really strange, because Gameplay first...
I didn't see much more great playable map becoming popular around Epic Games From and here. Most of the time, it's all about great looking map.
So I'm happy to finally see some people who cares about gameplay, but it can't only be about gameplay alone. WHen I said Originality, I never said it should be a random stupid freaking mover in freaking huge corridor LOLLLLL.
Originality is what will give a fresh breath. It's all about the immersion in the map. Zixxer and sklare did some Originality with Post-Processing and weather stuff. Zixxer made something really cool with his air lift. Plutonic made something very credible with his spaceship suspending to cables... and moving very smoothly. The unique feel of Nimius was definitely stunning and looked like a sci-fi CG film. WinterRealms made us believe it was freaking cold, but freaking beautiful too. It was a godly paradise.
If the map got a flat layout, it's not directly bad because he can well place objects in the map that make it totally playable.
The other thing is, UT3 is also limited, and you have to know it. If the map is way too complex, the bot will never be able to move correctly in it, that is also why the orgininal UT3 maps aren't too complex.
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^^ and Zixxer should have been properly rewarded and XYZ we think exactly alike ... I pretty much agree 100% with what you said about the top 10 ... check the first page and you will see that is what I said .... okay I will be quiet now.
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Absolutely, Zixxer did a jaw-dropping & funtastic job.^^ and Zixxer should have been properly rewarded and XYZ we think exactly alike ... I pretty much agree 100% with what you said about the top 10 ... check the first page and you will see that is what I said .... okay I will be quiet now.
You can say it in as many theoric words as you want, but this contest was still about using UnrealEd to create a DeathMatch map for Unreal Tournament 3. If these 3 things don't sound like a costraint to you, I don't know your definition of costraint.
"That's why people give more recognition to gameplay..."
It's really strange, because Gameplay first...
I didn't see much more great playable map becoming popular around Epic Games From and here. Most of the time, it's all about great looking map.
Um, let's see. Madonna, you know her? She is popular. That means that she's a really great singer and that her music is sofa king great. Wait, something sounds wrong...
Yes, of course those were literal examples, and not hyperboles at all.
Following your suggestions for the review scheme, you would have gameplay and originality in there (plus the other things). So, theoretically, the more original a map it is the higher the score goes. So a bit of post-processing effects should give you some points in originality, while having also an original layout would give you more points. So the most original maps, with completely out of the wazoo layouts that can't be played at all, should be rewarded since they stand out the most. So you have 2 contrasting things in the review scheme, because the most original map can't have the best gameplay.
You know why people seems so much obsessed with gameplay, while it's just something that might as well be left away since it's an obstacle for the mappers who want to create stunning new envinronments? As you probably know, this contest was about Unreal Tournament 3.
What is UT 3? If I'm not mistaken (and in this case I'm pretty sure I'm not), it's a fast-paced competitive multiplayer First Person Shooter. Take a look at all the retail maps, they are all designed with that gender in mind.
If I'm not mistaken again, we were asked to create a DM map for UT 3. Since it's a UT 3 contest and no other specifications were given, some people rightly thought that the maps should be designed to fit UT 3's category. If they wanted sniper maps, they should have specified it in the contest rules. Is it too much expecting to see the maps entering in an UT 3 contest being judged keeping in mind how they fit UT 3 itself?
A map like Shiota (which isn't terribly bad, but it doesn't deserve to be in the Top 5 while maps like Marauder or Gutter aren't) could fit the first person shooter category, but it's nowhere near how a DM map should be to fit a fast-paced competitive multiplayer First Person Shooter game like UT 3.
You could as well have spared this pearl. Yeah, try to do a flat map without any Z-axis and then let's see how good it is
. This isn't Mario Kart, Z-Axis is fundamental in UT 3, it's almost as important as having items in a map. Without it a map will still be playable, but it won't have a good gameplay. Just like you can't have a good gameplay without placing some weapons or having only one Playerstart in the whole level. Just think at why you don't see retail maps with a flat layout in UT 3.Bots can move fine in complex maps. They get some troubles mostly with dynamic stuff, but you can create a huge map with a humongous amount of levels and Z-Axis and they will still play it well if you place pathnodes and navigation stuff correctly.
Having a Deathmatch map for UT3 isn't stopping you to create new and original stuff to improve the immersion and create new gameplays.
It means:
- Create a deathmatch map
- It's UT3
- Playable with Bots
- That's it! Free to improve the game now
You are totally missing the point of Originality. First, original or not, a great map is totally playable. So even with an original map, it won't messed up the gameplay at all.
Flat layout:
I didn't say that you won't place any objects to go higher or lower.
Bots:
No, bots aren't smart enough to act like us, they need Pickups to clearly move where they should and not too big obstacles in the map to be able to see their environment.
I had many issues with my map due to that and that is why UT3 is mainly build with long and boring corridors.
It means:
- Create a deathmatch map
- It's UT3
- Playable with Bots
- That's it! Free to improve the game now
You are totally missing the point of Originality. First, original or not, a great map is totally playable. So even with an original map, it won't messed up the gameplay at all.
Flat layout:
I didn't say that you won't place any objects to go higher or lower.
Bots:
No, bots aren't smart enough to act like us, they need Pickups to clearly move where they should and not too big obstacles in the map to be able to see their environment.
I had many issues with my map due to that and that is why UT3 is mainly build with long and boring corridors.
Hyrage, game design and level design are not the same thing. They are related, that much is true, but they are not the same thing.
Game design are the rulesets, mechanics and systems that make up a game's structure. Level design is the application of that structure in the form of environments that players navigate around in.
In this specific case, the contest, the assignment was to make a DM level for UT3. In other words, apply the structure of the game UT3 to an environment people can play in. Much of the rules and systems in place serve as the constraints for the contest, allowing you to make an environment that best makes use of those rules. I believe you confuse originality in gameplay for UT3 DM with doing something that may not have been done before but doesn't apply the rules of the game in the best way.
End of rant and end of contribution to this thread
Game design are the rulesets, mechanics and systems that make up a game's structure. Level design is the application of that structure in the form of environments that players navigate around in.
In this specific case, the contest, the assignment was to make a DM level for UT3. In other words, apply the structure of the game UT3 to an environment people can play in. Much of the rules and systems in place serve as the constraints for the contest, allowing you to make an environment that best makes use of those rules. I believe you confuse originality in gameplay for UT3 DM with doing something that may not have been done before but doesn't apply the rules of the game in the best way.
End of rant and end of contribution to this thread
And you are right, the Level Designers are using the tools they have to create maps following the rules of UT3.Hyrage, game design and level design are not the same thing. They are related, that much is true, but they are not the same thing.
Game design are the rulesets, mechanics and systems that make up a game's structure. Level design is the application of that structure in the form of environments that players navigate around in.
In this specific case, the contest, the assignment was to make a DM level for UT3. In other words, apply the structure of the game UT3 to an environment people can play in. Much of the rules and systems in place serve as the constraints for the contest, allowing you to make an environment that best makes use of those rules. I believe you confuse originality in gameplay for UT3 DM with doing something that may not have been done before but doesn't apply the rules of the game in the best way.
End of rant and end of contribution to this thread
Where Level Design is crossing the line through Game Design is when you have also the tools to create new elements that aren't in the Game Design Documents wrote for the project. These new and original elements will improve the immersion, gameplay and originality.
Changing the weather of a map is part of that, is it breaking any UT3 rules? Hell no, it's about originality and immersion.
You shot down a publicity sign and it fall on the head of your worst enemy and kill him!!? OMG 10 pts lolll
A rotating object is in the map. You can bash it with your Hammer... and damn yeah! you can kill people with that trick.
There is a water zone somewhere and you could use your "E" action key to take a radio on the table near you and press "E" back to drop it in the water to electrify the water. Have you ever seen that in UT3? Would it break anything? No
You can make destructible environments, are you against that?
Is it in UT3??
You could also use an object, etc to make covers... I don'T think it breaks UT3 in anyways.
You break a radio station and the music that was coming from the speakers in the map goes down. - immersion...
All that is your role as a Level Designer, because any 5 years old kid can learn the Editor and make a layout with meshes all around. - no offence, but it actually is user-friendly enough for that
Conclusion...
There could be a lot more than just weapon placement, basic 3D layout with BSP, place some meshes and lights... wow I got a map.
You can aslo take full advantge of triggers, Kismet, matinee and cascade. Plus, if you can import custom stuff... thumbs up.
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