Why can't Epic fix the Bot Selection Team Based Game Modes UI

Plutonia_Experi said:

the UI not saving settings between matches

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Definitely something we'd like to see added in a patch, but not something that was implemented.

Plutonia_Experi said:

the bot roster not working at all (I cannot manage to play against a particular bot, they all get the same skin)

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It works on our end, so by all means PM any details. It sounds like you've got an opposing bot faction selected, which overwrites your bot roster. I play with the heroes when I test (Akasha, Reaper, Lauren, etc) and they all show up. Alternatively you've exceeded the default number of custom characters allowed (12), and are seeing fallback characters.

Plutonia_Experi said:

weird bot behaviour in WAR (please take a look at http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=614324).

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Thanks, we'll take a look.

Plutonia_Experi said:

I have worked on a project (videogame) before, and all the complains I have are about things included in the game that don't work properly.

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The last 2 paragraphs were not directed to you personally, they were just general remarks. The post you linked concern bots in warfare does contain a lot of info. But most people don't include much more information than "feature X doesn't work". Heck, I even received "bug" reports like "program Y doesn't work", or even (only once) "your program doesn't work".

This essay is a must read for everybody that wants to report a bug. Of course it's a bit much to ask. But it does make things a lot easier, saves time, save a lengthy Q&A just to figure out what goes wrong.

Me and my friend joke around a lot. He prefer a Linux based OS. He told me the true catch phrase of the OS. Linux, it's hardly working! Well, it's kind of true. For instance if you want to do something with an Acrobat PDF-file, there ain't much support. In fact, it's proudly not supporting most propertarian software.

The Bot Roster. There should be a portrait panel where you can see the portrait of the most recently selected character. There should be tabs for the red team and the blue team so you can select characters for each team without having to bother about selecting all bots in the right order so they end up in the desired team. There should be a way to rearrange the selected bots without removing them. Bots should have their faction written beside their names or at least have separators in the lists indicating the different factions.

Bot Roasters
Portrait Area
Move Up and Move Down selected bot
Faction listed with the bot's Name
Different Rosters for Deathmatch and Team Deathmatch
Red and Blue Tabs for Team Deathmatch Roster

Yes, the system we have at our disposal does work, but it's not that accessible for common people. They will figure it out eventually, but it would be much more comfortable if they easily could select a few bots here and there and just start playing with satisfying results from the very beginning.

One more thing, when let's say 8 bots are selected in Roaster and you select the minimum of 7 opponents all 8 bots will play in the match, there should only be the 7 first bots playing, not all 8. Also, the other way around, if you select 7 bots and want to play with 8, a random bot should be playing alongside the rest of the bots.

Another thing I have noticed. When I download a model it will upset the balance of the Deathmatch games because it will score frags twice as fast as it's standard counterparts. It will also appear more frequent than the others. I know this is where we should blame the producers of the custom made content and none else, but what if there was a mutator that neutralize all bots to be equally good. Easiest way to do this is to set all variables to the same standard values. A really thoughtful idea would be to balance them so they all can have their individual strength, but the sum of all abilities should not vary noticeable so all bot abilities will be resized to fit the standard chosen in the skill level.

Mutator: Normalize AI
Options: Preserve Individuality (Checkbox)

I guess there are more important things to tend to thou.

Last time I played DM-CarbonFire I noticed once more that I don't really get how the lifts are working. Are they supposed to stop half way and then move down? In order to reach the above floor you have to lift jump. It's not that hard, but it seems strange. I'm especially referring to the elevator next to the Shock Rifle. The platform is moving very fast and maybe it gets stuck on the player while it's moving upwards. I could have sworn I've seen the platform all the way up at the top floor. You are at the first floor and in order to get to the second floor you have to lift jump, the only floor above the Shock Rifle. The question is, is the lift supposed to bounce like that and only allow lift-jumping to the second floor, or is the lift getting stuck on the character riding the lift?

None the less, I think it's not that important so I rather not start an entire new thread about it. I just post it here instead, a bit of topic, just to be done with it.

Fuzz said:

Me and my friend joke around a lot. He prefer a Linux based OS. He told me the true catch phrase of the OS. Linux, it's hardly working! Well, it's kind of true. For instance if you want to do something with an Acrobat PDF-file, there ain't much support. In fact, it's proudly not supporting most propertarian software.

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That's absolutely not true. In fact, there is more pdf support in GNU/Linux than in MS Windows. If it doesn't work you are probably doing something wrong or quite obscure/advanced. One of my GNU/Linux systems has been working for over 7 years now. Sure, I replaced pretty much every piece of hardware (only the network cards and casing haven't changed), but it's still the same system. I've never done a single reinstall of the system, or a Windows-like upgrade that required me to reconfigure half the system.

WarTourist said:

The issue here is simply one of resources. Since everything had to be re-implemented in the new engine, from my perspective it's not valid to say that since UT2004 had a feature, UT3 must also include it. New features or old features eat hours equally.

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Does UT3's code really differ so much from UT2K4's that it requires a great deal of specialist knowledge and raw creativity to port the menu (as a whole) from one platform to the other? Couldn't this kind of grunt work simply be outsourced to China or India, or couldn't you at least give community projects like Envy and UWindows the support they deserve?

WarTourist said:

Like any development effort, we had n resources for n months with n feature list. We had to prioritize what to work on and this feature simply didn't make the cut.

I'm not saying it's not important to a portion of our customers, nor that it won't potentially come in a future patch. Ultimately though there were features we felt we more important to implement and spent our resources accordingly.

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I think most offline players would agree that decent bot management > half-assed campaign. But, whatever...

Interbellum said:

Does UT3's code really differ so much from UT2K4's that it requires a great deal of specialist knowledge and raw creativity to port the menu (as a whole) from one platform to the other?

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For systems like the UI that were complete reboots from UE2, it does.

The change list of the v1.3 patch is huge and I'm happy that there will actually be a patch at all.

I watched some videos on YouTube and I now see that the elevators don't bounce, they go all the way up, which means that the engine ain't running correctly on my low-end system. Best solution, get myself a new computer.

Regarding Unix and Solaris. I don't know the operative systems well enough. This is my good friends own critic. Doesn't matter. The point is, we don't only want something that looks great, we want functionality and reasonable, easy to use, means to do what we want to do.

The UI in UT3 looks great, it really does. There could be even more 3d and windows, but that would be hard on consoles. Being able to save different configurations, like map cycles or bot roasters and so on in files would be luxurious.

WarTourist said:

For systems like the UI that were complete reboots from UE2, it does.

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Yeah but still... I find it very hard to believe that there really wasn't time to add in fairly basic features like a portrait-based drag & drop bot roster, or that it couldn't be squeezed into the upcoming patch (which doesn't really have a fixed deadline, so basically you can take your time and release it 'when it's done', right?).

Anyway, thanks for the reply, I do appreciate you taking the time to read all these angry rantings. Even without the above -and other- features UT3 is still a fun game, and I'll enjoy it for many years no doubt, just like I have the previous UT's (still play 2K4 in fact). It's just that with a little more polish it could have been truly amazing instead of merely 'good', and sales would have been much better too no doubt.

Interbellum said:

Yeah but still... I find it very hard to believe that there really wasn't time to add in fairly basic features like a portrait-based drag & drop bot roster

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There was time; it was just spent on something else.

Interbellum said:

, or that it couldn't be squeezed into the upcoming patch

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Never say never .

Interbellum said:

Anyway, thanks for the reply,

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Keep it civil and you'll always have our ear.

This UWindows thingy sure could prove useful if it's fully modifiable, open source and functional. I hope the authors will add some nice features mentioned above like remembering last game settings after restarting the executables and improved bot selection.

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It's modifiable.
It's not open source.
It remembers last used settings.
It's only one author, me.

I did do a check and bot ratio is used on the host match page. Sure its not as configurable as 8 vs 5 but with 2:1 you could get 8 vs 4

[screenshot]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a123/OlympusMons/UT3/ServerWarfareBotratio.jpg[/screenshot]

So yeah this might be alittle bit of an annoyance but what you do, host dedicated, start a match and select the bot ratio (if it works ) then boot up a second copy of the game and join (open 127.0.0.1) voila. That should keep you going for the time being

Edit: then again it might dump all the bots on one team, so no matter how many you set up the top it'll only spawn 2:1 vs humans....

So I tested it and yups that bot count doesnt mean a great deal when using a ratio, I did 5 bot 'players', 6 including me with a 2:1 ratio so I shoulda got a 4vs2 match instead I get 2vs1

MonsOlympus said:

Im just sick of hearing about how crap the UI is, lets talk about the features themselves, lets talk about ini settings, avoiding the UI completely would give you a better UT3 experience anyways.

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C'mon, Olympus, that's not really fair. You're a modder, and can't reasonably expect every user to access code to get to user-interface elements we've grown used to having from every previous game. This is the sort of control it isn't unreasonable to expect. Going your way puts into question why Epic even bothered with a UI at all (hey, wait... finally an explanation of the UI...).

That said, I think the community as a whole has given up on the idea that Epic cares what the shortcomings of this game are, so this thread is, at some level, completely worthless. Epic has moved on to Gears 2, as we predicted it would.

This invites the collapse of the UT community as a whole, but I'm not sure Epic cares about that either. Online numbers apparently keep dropping, they aren't advertising much if at all for the upcoming Xbox release. Offline UT3 is an exercise in frustration, since you have to reset your settings every single time you start a game. This alone will turn off many. Will they care if their offline audience bails too? Hey, if you've stopped playing UT3, you're the new prime audience to get Gears 2, right?

So I guess fixing the bot ratio control or whatever is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, at this point. Epic probably felt the iceberg hit with the release of the "beta demo", and headed for the escape boats, letting the community come up with fixes.

I just think it's a sad thing that the mod community of the game has to finish the game, rather than developing new content. Epic should be embarrassed, I think. I remember a time when they had pride in their work.

Well no thats not what Im saying at all but its something 'I' can help people out with! What I cant help out with is improvements to UT3, the only person that can do that is Epic which is why I think its better to send stuff like this to Epic directly (then again WarTourist replied ) you get what Im saying though.

As I said I dont mind discussing stuff, but things I can do nothing about, things I can never answer because I dont work for Epic and peoples favorite missing feature I cant comment on a great deal over a "+1".

So instead I tried to be useful and got a negative response that was thrown back in my face, its not my fault it doesnt work or isnt present in UT3. Infact I actually made a post which discussed how I tested and how it didnt work correctly instead.

Anyways UI improvements (the current UT3 UI) is soley in Epic's court so can we please do something other than bitching about it for a change? Thats basically why I blew up, Im bored as hell of it, sure I dont have to read it but I like buf and I read as much as I can to give everyone a fair go of it.

Thing with that is though there is alot of stuff which can only be accessed through ini's so people who play UT enough should know a thing or two, having it up here will help other people to find it or expand their knowledge. Im not here to get on Epic's arse with every post I make but to make a 'positive' contribution.

And again the UI is outta my ballpark completely, sure I can make mut UI's (not gametype settings it seems) and hopefully something alittle better now I can place numerical widgets but its just not enough. This option is the least of Epic's worries when it comes to the UI so far, the base system is flimsy to say the least so once that is alittle more solid additions like this would be a mouse click.

So yes excuse me if I tell people who have nothing better to do that there are options in the ini that might be useful for getting them around the UI in the time being

Edit:
and theres gotta be more commandline options then:
http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=578745

is it still [killnamedbot 'name']?

If it is you can start a 8on8 and kill your teammates, or perhaps there is one for removing bots from a team and a number then you can bind it. Maybe it'll autobalance teams if you kill acouple off your own though.

Better yet an overlay that lets you control the game with admin type commands in instant action, now that I could do

Hedge-o-Matic said:

This invites the collapse of the UT community as a whole, but I'm not sure Epic cares about that either. Online numbers apparently keep dropping, they aren't advertising much if at all for the upcoming Xbox release. Offline UT3 is an exercise in frustration, since you have to reset your settings every single time you start a game. This alone will turn off many. Will they care if their offline audience bails too? Hey, if you've stopped playing UT3, you're the new prime audience to get Gears 2, right?

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There are different factors in play. A community that mostly (or even only) revolves around an mostly online multiplayer game is very fragile compared to communities around story based games. You have to convince the members to move on to a newer version of what is essentially the same game. That's a very difficult task. Getting community members of a story based game to move on to the next game is much more easy, because it is a completely new experience, which doesn't invalidate the previous game.

Of course dividing the community into three camps (PC/PS3/XBox260) doesn't help the community of a mostly online game in a whole. For story based games this isn't a problem at all, because it's the same story after all.

(note "story based" might be better read as "single player")

Hey lets not start attacking Anuban, he (in my eyes) has contributed allot to the community and that community does not give any thanks, but he still helps out, this is Not another one of those threads about the UI.

He is simply stating that with patch 1.3 on the way that some important things have not been addressed that should be, while skimming the thread Anuban mentioned something that made me wonder how it could not have been addressed also.

single player settings not saving, we always have to set up mutators and bots, and game type settings, we can no longer jump strait into the game.. saving settings. Thats the big one for me that he mentioned, and I totally agree..

I dont think I have that many mutators to turn on but if I did I imagine I might start getting quite frustrated.

EDIT, hey look its Jeff, isnt he do great posting here .. good to see, and nice to here settings may be saved in patch 1.3 yay.. Im very excited about that..

Seen as your reading id just like to point out a couple of things regarding the bot roster, some you may have fix but I havent checked.
*Setting Opponents to 11 will actually give you 9 (wasn't working In latest patch im sure)
*placing a bot in the bot roster (playing) and then removing him (after game), doesn't save when I tried the roster after games release (i had to edit him out with the INI.
*Also it would be nice to randomly chose bots, I gt kind of tired with the same bots on my team all the time.

I dunno if that was directed at me or not! Anyways Anuban got a mention in my readme for newtators, Im not attacking anyone since my post was directed specifically at someone!

As I said to anuban I think the thread title makes the whole thread smell alittle iffy, sure there are alot of things I would like to see added to UT3 but theres no way my list is going to be in the same order as anyone elses here.

Honestly I want to be able to change bot rosters, mutators, player counts etc on the end match menu for instant action. When selecting single map mode it should auto go to a instant action select next map to play also. The ability to add bots/kill bots via the midgame menu by selecting their name or whatever, just saves any text based stuff at all. Being able to setup and save rosters would be kewl and being able to set the game to use random out of your rosters setup or the defaults, even both. I could go on but yeah...

Actually why not...

A complete rework of the command/voice menu thingo to include better commands for coordinated team work. Im not going to be too specific because I have the design notes here, if anyone wants to read them they can send me an email.

[SAS]Solid Snake;2149451 said:

It's not open source.

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NAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anuban said:

Edit: I guess it would just be nice for Epic to acknowledge certain bugs/issues and let us know if they are ever going to be resolved. And btw thanks Bazz for the nice words ... but people will be people and it doesn't really bother me as long as people don't start name calling and being totally insulting.

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for the most part they have acknowledged most of the 'major' problems... ppl (myself included) just dont always feel the love cause they may not say to me personally - 'yes Sioux, we left out or broke your favorite feature'. but they have said it in general in some way shape or form about most of the big bugs n missing features in UT3... hey, they do have stuff to do besides answer all our rants and complaints on the forums

like most of us, i do wish they would get to fixing my pet peeves and missing features and i think in the end they will. most of all i hope they get around to some kind of re-release or re-launch to help the PC game online.

i think we can be pretty sure that as open and community friendly as Epic is, they are going to be more careful about too much advance press on anything, including pacthes and fixes etc. as thats another area they admitted was somewhat goofed up... kinda sux cause we always want to know whats going on and whats new but then many fans crucify the devs when its not exactly what they said it was gonna be 2 years ago or doesnt meet our personal expectations so they are screwed either way...

p.s. yea i want to see bot selection/customization and player selection/customization and models/faction options & features all fixed up as pretty high on my list of things i'd like to see too.