Do you think ut2004 will increase # of players?

Scuzzbuster · Jul 31, 2003

I'll be buying Doom3 the day it's released. But it's not competetion for 2k4 because Doom3 has virtually no Multiplayer element save for a desperate client-based 4-player max FFA DM.

2k4 is going to be different things to different people. 2k3 owners are going to have an upgrade while Epic now has their chance to lure in the crowd that couldn't run the damn game from the start...which basically is the reason the community is patchy and small now. I firmly believe that. UT1 was the bomb...no doubt, and 2k3 isn't the game that UT1 was, but I still believe that had 2k3 not had UT1 to live up to, it would be being hailed as one of the great Action FPS games.

The point was made above about Counter Strike. And that's a fact in Black and White. 100,000 players playing CounterStrike. Many of these without the PC power to run UT1 at adequate framerates, much less 2k3. Those guys ain't goin' nowhere...and sure is hell not to Half Life 2. The market for UT2k3 is limited because the casual gamer and a large percentage of the hardcore community just cant run the damn game...and if they can...just can't run it well enough that it's consistently enjoyable.

I wasn't excited about 2k4 until the most recent comments and details about Assualt and Onslaught...though I'm probably getting my hopes up for nothing. BF1942 is hella fun game, and if Onslaught can capture some of the magic of 1942 only with the faster pace of UT...I'm excited at what could result.

However...I'm fairly cynical and think we probably have to look no further than the success of Quake 3's $30 addon TEAM ARENA to see where 2k4 is going to go...a very small community, a handful of servers and players, and no competetive play. For those still bitching about the full game of 2k3 being included with 2k4, Team Arena is a stellar example of how NOT including the full game in a large upgrade/overhaul release doomed a game to failure.

CorDharel · Jul 31, 2003

I agree with the most points you said Scuzzbuster. I think CS changed the whole game world and filled it up with "not-a-game-freak"-people, and I dont think these people will change the game, just perhaps to CS:CZ. I still can't understand a person who keeps playing cs while ut2k3, the coolest game I've ever seen, is out.

A few people complain about the prize that comes with ut2k4, and that they'll wont get it when its a full version etc. Ey people, you have an EXCELLENT game with ut2k3, and you just had to pay one time for it and got so much, and it will be the same thing with ut2k4. I think the price is not much for so many hours of fun. Do you know planetside? Planetside is never as good as ut2k3, and you can't do as much as you can in ut2k3, but you have to pay 12 dollars or more each month. Would you like it when Epic does the same way?

I'll buy ut2k4, cause I think it will be much fun to play, and the price for it ONE TIME isnt much. When you play planetside, you paid the price for it in perhaps 3 or 4 months, but you paid just for playing the game.

But what I always hated: This "wow we are really cool people and release the same game each year with just some additions and the people are buying it" lewdies from EA. The sentences shows you what I mean. I don't want Epic to do it like this, it would be better they make some add-ons like BF1942, TheSims or another game, and the people complain not as much as they do when you do it like "yeah, we have ut2k4 with vehicles but the same game engine.... wow, now we got ut2k9 with the same game engine, but you have now the old sniper rifle and rocket launcher from ut2k5 and not the gay one from ut2k8". Ey Epic, that just sux IMO!

I can't understand why ut2k3 is so unpopular in the gamer's world. I talked about "people who play cs and are n00bs IMO cause this game is 0ldschool" so I understand that this people won't come to ut2k3, but, ut2k3 has a very good valuation in the magazines, but a few are complaining about it. I just can't understand it...

If it's another fugly white box like UT2k3 then people will walk right on by.

If you look @ a game's box if you buy a game you have my compassion. For me, this sounds like racism: "Ey, this guy is black, kill him!" and this is the stupidest idea the human race ever had IMO. (If it would be like this, I couldn't have some beautiful sex with my very nice girlfriend from sri lanka

)

PS: I am glad if you rofl about my english, I do my best

TaoPaiPai · Jul 31, 2003

CrazyCougar said:
I haven't gotten my money's worth from Ut2003 yet. I won't be buying Ut200x until I do get my money's worth from this game.

:tup:

TaoPaiPai · Jul 31, 2003

Maybe EPIC doesn't care about splitting the community?...
Maybe they don't care about the # of online players...Maybe they realized that selling a new game every year would always bring them more money (thanks to the newcomers) and it was more profitable than to be faithful to the old timers.Even if the community is slowly dying to 0 they will always make a little money by issuing a new (crappy) game every year and promoting it for CPL or 'FPS sport' or 'best modding platform'.They always attract the gullible.
Sorry for being so pessimistic.

UT2k4 appears to be what ut2k3 should have been. Maybe a little to late.
If they don't intend to sell us a ut2k5,Ut2kX...etc...then maybe 2k4 will be a success.But if players realize they'll have to buy a new game every year and that they are screwed then it will be R.I.P EPIC.

TWD · Jul 31, 2003

Realize that epic did not make ut2k3 for the most part. They only did a bit of polishing up. Legend did unreal2 de did ut2k3 and both did not do so well. See where it's going? I feel that ut2k4 is how epic is going to take charge again and make it the game it should be, even if what we have is already pretty good. I don't think that epic could change things by just adding a really huge bonus pack. Look at the bonus packs already, they've made the game tons better, but does anybody really care or even know about them?

hal · Jul 31, 2003

You're talking out of your ass again, TWD.

DE was a major, major contributor to Unreal and UT. The reason why UT2003 isn't as popular as UT has nothing to do with the fact that Epic was hands-off until the very end. It's because it isn't UT. The system requirements aren't the same as UT, the game movements aren't quite the same as in UT, the weapons aren't quite the same as in UT.

People weren't ready for such high system requirements, they can't freely copy the game, and it's not quite the same, but not different enough to hold the interest of the people who are looking for something new.

Digital Extremes built a fine game. It wasn't finished when it was released, I'll grant you that. But it wasn't DE's fault that it wasn't.

DE has one of the best mapping/modeling/art teams in the business. Their work surpasses 99% of the crap sitting out there on game shelves in that respect.

There just wasn't enough time given to the sequel of hands-down one of the best FPS games of all time. Period.

UT2004 really is the package that everyone expected from UT2003. UT was MORE than I anticipated. I was blown away by the amount and variety of content. If UT2004 offers that experience of new gameplay (through the new gametypes) and loads of content (scale the maps better - please!) then I have no doubt that it will attract new gamers and maybe a few old ones.

And oh yeah, DE is co-developing with Epic. So there goes your theory again I guess.

Renegade Retard · Jul 31, 2003

hal said:
You're talking out of your ass again, TWD.

[Ace Ventura]"Can I ASSk you a question?"[/Ace Ventura]

As long as he doesn't start eating through it!

TWD · Jul 31, 2003

I'm not saying their work is crap it's just different, and I think that's what's responsible for people complaining about the "feel" of the game. Take just the lighting for example. There are strong bright red lights in chrom that have no sources. There are white lights. It is overall brighter. These are things you never saw in UT1, it's a completly different style. Look back at the maps from ut orbital and hall of giants definatly has a different feel from the rest of the maps. In fact they have a feel similar to that of the maps from ut2k3. Different people make things differently. Digital Extremes made ut2k3 differently than it would have been assuming epic did most of it, and I think that feel that people loved was partially lost because it was developed differently. Now is all of this true, I'm not totally sure, I'm no insider, but when you see things like how epic took controll during the polishing process and the way they are developing ut2k4 you can't help but wonder.

Fact of the matter is a lot of people don't like ut2k3, a lot of good intelligent big contributing members of the community too. Obviously there is a problem and I don't buy the they just don't like it because it's not ut1 theory. A lot of these people that dont' like ut2k3 are a lot brighter than that. So then where do we place the blame? Was it because there wasn't enough time was it who developed it is it because there's not much more you can add to the fps genere? It's probably the combination of all of these things. This needs to be figured out and solved otherwise ut2k4 will be detrimental. It doesn't matter if you love this game or hate it. People want answers. They want to be assured that this won't be a rerun.

ShadowKi][er · Jul 31, 2003

I reckon that it's going to split the community even more. I can't see too much that would attract people who disliked UT2K3, and you can be certain that not everyone who owns UT2K3 will be buying the next version. Personally I'm not shelling out more money for Epic, considering I haven't really got my money's worth with UT2K3.

The irony; I remember CliffyB saying Epic wanted to make a crazy and fun oldsk00l shooter without relying on vechicles and other gimmicks.

[IsP]KaRnAgE · Jul 31, 2003

CorDharel said:
I agree with the most points you said Scuzzbuster. I think CS changed the whole game world and filled it up with "not-a-game-freak"-people, and I dont think these people will change the game, just perhaps to CS:CZ. I still can't understand a person who keeps playing cs while ut2k3, the coolest game I've ever seen, is out.

People have very different opinions. For me 2k3 is no where near the coolest game I own. And it isn't because it runs like crap on my pc. It runs wonderfully with the details set pretty high (higher than 1942.) And it isn't because I'm laggy since I'm on a pretty fast DSL connection. It is because, for me, it isn't fun. I play CS far more than I do 2k3. I play UT1 far more than I do 2k3. Some people like 2k3, some don't.

Why is it not as big as Ut1 was? I don't know. I know why I don't like it much though. I don't like it because it isn't "like UT". I instantly liked Ut1 when I first layed hands on it. Same for Quake 2. I didn't like Quake 3 much for the first year I had it though it eventually grew on me.

But the more I played 2k3, the less I seemed to like it. Maybe 2k4 will grow on me, maybe it won't.

I hope it does though, because I'd like a replacement for UT1

hal · Jul 31, 2003

TWD said:
I'm not saying their work is crap it's just different, and I think that's what's responsible for people complaining about the "feel" of the game. Take just the lighting for example. There are strong bright red lights in chrom that have no sources. There are white lights. It is overall brighter. These are things you never saw in UT1, it's a completly different style. Look back at the maps from ut orbital and hall of giants definatly has a different feel from the rest of the maps. In fact they have a feel similar to that of the maps from ut2k3. Different people make things differently. Digital Extremes made ut2k3 differently than it would have been assuming epic did most of it, and I think that feel that people loved was partially lost because it was developed differently. Now is all of this true, I'm not totally sure, I'm no insider, but when you see things like how epic took controll during the polishing process and the way they are developing ut2k4 you can't help but wonder.

Fact of the matter is a lot of people don't like ut2k3, a lot of good intelligent big contributing members of the community too. Obviously there is a problem and I don't buy the they just don't like it because it's not ut1 theory. A lot of these people that dont' like ut2k3 are a lot brighter than that. So then where do we place the blame? Was it because there wasn't enough time was it who developed it is it because there's not much more you can add to the fps genere? It's probably the combination of all of these things. This needs to be figured out and solved otherwise ut2k4 will be detrimental. It doesn't matter if you love this game or hate it. People want answers. They want to be assured that this won't be a rerun.

Err

Chrome = CliffyB = Epic
Orbital2 = Dave Ewing = Digital Extremes

Maybe I have an advantage here, in that I saw what Digital Extremes did before they turned it over to Epic. I'm not sure "polishing" is the process I'd describe it as.

In any case, it's the product of both companies, just as UT and Unreal were. So instead of pointing at the mistaken fact that Epic were going to swoop in and save the series (as you say they did to UT2003), perhaps you should think about what I'm saying:

There was not enough time to deliver the epic (excuse the pun) game that UT was. AND I think that both companies mistakenly assumed that they could release what essentially started life as a console game and, towards the middle of the development cycle, morph it into the sequel to a hardcore PC game.

Not only that, but consider the fact that the first videos we saw of UT2003 found the game at a stage where the developers themselves DID NOT KNOW the final way they were going to create maps in the game. That's why so many of the early maps we saw never made it into the game.

UT was created at a time where the core engine was pretty much finished from Unreal. Both developers poured their efforts heavily into content creation and it showed.

UT2003, on the other hand, had a few strikes against it from the start:

1) The core engine was being drastically changed by Epic. Even as the game was being created. This resulted in a lot of lost work and a shorter dev time.
2) The game started out SOLELY as a console game in the hands of DE. So, naturally, DE began creating a console game. When it became a full fledged PC sequel, Epic opted to step in at the end and add content and additional tweaking.
3) The high system requirements. UT ran on pretty much the same system that Unreal would run on. UT2003 was released with a requirements that needed almost triple the system that UT did.
4) The short demo time. For whatever reasons (I have my guesses), there was an incredibly short demo period that would have provided invaluable feedback. Look what happened with the feedback Epic took from the release. It's almost a totally different game, and much improved.

So, I think (and hope) that what we are getting here is a true PC sequel. We're getting more content (UT had far more content than UT2003 did). We're getting improved features. We're getting new gametypes that may appeal more to some of the people that are just plain sick and tired of CTF and DM. We're getting Assault back (which if you read back through reviews of UT was one of the most praised and impressive gametypes).

Look around you... DM and CTF games are waning right now. Bigger object oriented team games is where the excitement is for many people online. If UT2004 draws more people into the fold by incorporating some popular gametypes, then that's good. It's not dividing the community, it's creating one. DM and CTF are great (my faves), and maybe by getting people into the UT universe again and getting them used to the weapons and gameplay we can attract more people to UT2004 CTF and DM too.

So, I've rambled on, but I think I've made my points.

hal · Jul 31, 2003

Having said that, it's clear that this is a way of "beefing up" UT2003 and repackaging it in a way that it will possibly draw new players in.

When we get that totally new Unreal product somehwere down the line, then I don't think you'll see the same sort of chaos happen that we've all just witnessed.

And TWD, as far as you not buying the notion that people don't like it because it's just not UT... well, you may reconsider that as well. Look at [IsP]KaRnAgE's post where he says:

I know why I don't like it much though. I don't like it because it isn't "like UT".

There's a cerain validity to that. There are lots of nuances that add up, for some people, to a game that they don't like nearly as well. I think more people feel that way than you believe.

TWD · Jul 31, 2003

Thanks for the clarification I can see your point.

Sir_Brizz · Jul 31, 2003

I have to agree with hal...DE has been in this thing from the beginning, in fact the original Unreal idea belonged to James Schmalz....I recall reading an interview with him where he regretted leaving the franchise with Epic even though they are a subsidiary because of how well the series has done monetarily. DE was even mentioned on the original Unreal box art, which was also incredibly different from what was out there.

I think essentially, like hal mentioned, the problem was taking a console game (in Unreal Championship) and trying to devote enough time to a PROPER PC conversion. If you play UC right out of the box, you can see that it didn't come out so hot either thanks to trying to divide their time. That said, I think that UT2k3 actually turned out FAR better than either DE or Epic had hoped it would with all of the hands it had changed and all of the data (in terms of graphics engine, adding karma, etc) they had had to do even after they decided to port it.

IMO UT2k4 is essentially both Epic and DE saying "Remember what we said 2k3/UC would be like all those months ago? Well here it is!" However, the additional development time required for UT2k4 undoubtedly could not have justified a simple "bonuspack", "map pack" or "expansion pack". In fact, I'm pretty sure once some of us are holding 2k4 in our grubby little hands (meaning playing it

) we will say, "Now THIS is what I was expecting!!"

And hopefully that will be what draws more players into the game...

deadboy · Aug 4, 2003

Certainly UT2K4 will split the community further. There are already so many FPS alternatives and many more coming out. The generic FPS fan base will not get much bigger, the factions will definately get smaller with all the new games.

I still play UT2003 on a LAN, but on line the low ping, populated servers are instagib, yuk.

Are the Gamespy stat close to correct ? Are there really only 20 people playing death ball ?

Checker · Aug 4, 2003

Hello, thought I'd jump in and give my opinion. This is my personal opinion and experience:

When we started working on UT2k3 / UC we wanted to take what was good in UT and push it further, people loved the dodge feature so we tried to find new things that would enhance that. The double jump was the result. I think we underestimated the impact that these new moves caused. We tried to incorperate all the tricks that we knew of into the game, but we knew that people would find different tricks and new ways of playing the game that we had not forseen. This indeed happened and unfortunately that meant that some maps didn't play so well anymore. Thats why our bonusmaps were alot wider and more open

Take a look at the DE bonus pack, some original levels with somewhat different gameplay and some really hardcore maps. We are striffing for the same in UT2k4. This way we are trying to make our ut2k3 fans more happy by giving them more good stuff, and at the same time get a bigger and better game for the new players that haven't tried UT2k3 yet, and will buy UT2k4. Ontop of that Epic is adding the new gametypes and tons more maps / models and goodies.

UT2004 is as Mark Rein said, UT2k3 Gold. All the extra stuff, the latest patch and the bonuspacks. With the rebate it becomes basically an expansion pack for UT2k3 owners.

Something a bit off the topic: You might not see us post alot on forums, but we are reading them, and we are listening.

Radiosity · Aug 4, 2003

Checker said:
You might not see us post alot on forums, but we are reading them, and we are listening

Cool, that's good to know (not meaning that in a sarcastic way BTW)

cvydas · Aug 4, 2003

i still play Quake 1 since it came out but i'll probably end up getting ut2k4 at some point. as for ut2k4 splitting the community, i think that 2k3ers will get ut2k4 because 2k3 and 2k4 are released so close together, not to mention it'll be the newest, latest, greatest. it should definitely atract newcomers too. someone can almost compare the unreal trilogy to windows operating systems. some run 98 while other are using 2000 and yet others are using xp home and professional.
when ut2k4 comes out, what do you call the trilogy? a quadroligy?

Radiosity · Aug 4, 2003

Uh, a quartet, I believe

Not 100% sure if quartet is the correct word in this context though.

Renegade Retard · Aug 4, 2003

Scumgrief said:
Unless you're talking quarts of Wild Turkey
dewd!

/me rubs his eyes. "Say what?!?"

Do you think ut2004 will increase # of players?

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