EPIC detached from the Unreal community?

Persefone what is the point in posting about this if your just going to make up excuses so you can ignore what everyone else tells you?

Light of Reason

Much as I personaly hate ONS (it's really not my kind of gametype), I'm definitly in agreement that ONS has become a key part of new-era UT. Theres no sense on dropping it when a lot of people like it. Theose that prefer the core, "orthodox" gametypes (DM/TDM/CTF) can still play them, and those who prefer the new, vehicle gametypes (ONS/CON) also have all the game they can handle.

No-one loses. Everyone gains. I can still happily go through the lifetime of the game without ever needing to bind a "use" key.

The argument that ONS shouldn't be included on the grounds that it's got vehicles in is Ludite to put it mildly. If it affacted the gameplay and mechanics of the other gametypes, then you'd have an argument. But it doesn't effect the orthodox gametypes in any way whatsoever, so I genuinly don't see the problem.

Sir_Brizz said:

The most played gametype is still ONS. It doesn't matter what you think of the game, ONS succeeded at attracting new players, especially since several of the community here on BuF are ONSers turned CTFers (or whatever gametype they like). If even one person does that, it's still a success.

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Yes, it is, but is UT2K4 the most played game? Maybe Epic should try to explain the game to new customers with a good training mode instead of merely entrust that work to vehicles attraction.

Sir_Brizz said:

How does that make any sense compared with the words you quoted??? Discord was clearly saying that Epic keeping the only game modes that have a strong userbase makes sense. Epic isn't saying that these gametypes are only for noobs, I'm sorry if you feel that way but try joining a comp CTF server sometime and tell me everyone there is a bunch of noobs. I'll happily call you a liar, in that case.

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They are the more played modes, but they are played by few, very few. I woudn´t call that a strong users base.

Sir_Brizz said:

What does, then? The point of Discord even quoting CSports is to show that ONS is the most played (and thus "most popular") gametype in UT2004 still today. Why would Epic then drop the gametype for UT2007 and keep a bunch of gametypes that nobody plays any longer?

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Did I write something about drop ONS?
Every time I connect the servers are isolated, where are all those players?

Sir_Brizz said:

Obviously, you are not the be-all-and-end-all of what is a good server. There are plenty of players on plenty of servers out there, so they can't be as bad as this statement makes them seem.

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Plenty of players on plenty of servers, well...

Sir_Brizz said:

Neither can I. There will probably be more of them than ONS servers. And guess what, they will probably be the two most popular gametypes of UT2007.

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If we can find more than ten players on then, they will be.

EDIT: comp CTF?

Persofone, it seems that you're shifting your argument as you go. Look at what you said originally:

Persefone said:

There are vehicles in UT2004 and that doesn´t appeal to many new players who buyed an UT title for first time, saw the game and now hate the game.

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Basically, as I said, the opposite is true. New players came in BECAUSE of ONS, and while no-one would ever claim that it retained the players that it had in the demo days, it has, as Brizz pointed out, retained some. What you miss is that it probably would never have got those players in the first place if ONS hadn't been present.
As for not retaining these new players, that can hardly be blamed on ONS. I agree with you that Epic should indeed incorporate far better turorials into the game, but I don't agree that keeping what can only be described as "marginal" gametypes would improve player numbers.

With this quote:

Persefone said:

Epic includes only DM and CTF as "classic" gametypes, like a candy for us, poor retards who still playing UT and don´t understand the future of FPS are the buggies.

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..you seem to be suggesting that Epic is betraying its hardcore fans by dropping BR, AS and DD....yet UT2k3 had all these gametypes and no vehicles and people stayed away from it.
Personally I think it's better if Epic focus on a few basic gametypes making sure that each one is polished to the best it can be. ONS for example has various gameplay issues that may have been sorted out for UT2k4 IF Epic hadn't been trying to make the game all things to all people.

Persefone said:

Epic is looking down on some Unreal fans. I am not going to buy a game with only DM and CTF.

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That of course is your perogative,but are you saying here that you would buy the game if it featured the DD, BR and AS?
Personally I think that if Epic were to include all those gametypes along with CON it would just be an unwieldy monster. All those gametypes need different maps (although you can maybe play BR and CTF on the same maps) and would just mean Epic's development team and level designers are spread even more thinly...better to concentrate on getting the core gametypes right....After all, the dropped gametypes are played exclusively by a tiny minority of players.

In your later posts though you seem to be merely stating that UT2k4 has a small player base and stating that the servers are mostly empty. It's pointless to argue stats and crap like that, but what are you suggesting? I agree that UT2k4 isn't hugely popular...but your posts don't offer any suggestions for increasing players other than a decent tutorial (good idea) and keeping marginal gamtypes (pointless).

Also, to state that there is only one good ONS server is to speak from ignorance. Titan is probably the only successful 32 player server, and it is regularly full and has a good teamplay attitude for a pub...I rarely play on it however as I don't much like 32 players and yet I never have problems finding a decent 16 -20 player game on various servers.

So what you are actually saying it seems is that UT2k4 has very few players and that Ut2k7 will pretty much be the same...I guess it's because you believe this:

Persefone said:

there is no replacement for UT since 1999 (for me since 2001).

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That's fine, I know there are a lot of people who prefer the original UT over its 2kx incarnations...but your reasons for it's decline don't make sense and you offer no suggestions about how Epic should attempt to recapture those UT players (other than keeping the marginal gametypes...which lets face it, didn't work with UT2k3 or 4, so there's no reason why it would for 2k7).

So what do you think Epic should do to capture players like yourself who love UT, and aren't interested in vehicular gametypes?

I´d like to compare UT with chess. Chess has got the quality that makes good games: is easy to learn and hard to master. UT is hard to master but it isn´t easy to learn, you are throwed to the arena without an idea on what to do.
When a new player starts UT2007 for first time, he will need a guide throught its techniques and rules, the weapons usage need to be explained, how to move and when move, etc.
Regardless vehicles quality, they will attract new players again, but if they are going to be massacred for people jumping around without knowing why, they will leave the game once more.
I´m not blaming Epic cause ONS and CON. Epic is who blame traditional gameplay when they never tried to get their game more accessible, and I blame them for this.

If you are interested in what Epic has to do for capture again an UT maniac like me, here is: Don´t fix what it isn´t broken, recover UT intensity in DM and CTF, keep the double jump if you want, but I want to fight in short and middle range not in middle-long range. Bring back pick-ups, the action is faster and furious trying to dominate the arena, adrenaline ruins this. Don´t make the maps too big, I don´t want run, I want fight. Don´t make on foot players in Conquest useless, do you remember AS-Overlord? I want that feeling. If this is done Conquest can replace AS for me.

I know Bombing Run will be no more, but I´d like to say is the best UT2004 has, if it isn´t played is because people don´t know how to play it.

[EDIT]: Bring back fun.

Persefone said:

UT is about dextery, reflexes, aim and strategy, UT2003 is a beta, UT2004 is a First Person Shoter and Double Jumper (a good one, but not better than UT) and, what´s UT2007?


I admit I´m dogmatic, but there is no replacement for UT since 1999 (for me since 2001).

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UT is also about having tons and tons of fun ^_^ variation, lots of that. Look at all those mutators the community has produced. All those mods. All those little, big tweaks. Changes. So many of them.
To ensue an everlasting gaming experience...
That's the idea ;O)

UT also has a fair share of GOOD humour. The sounds, the character movement. Insta-hilarity-bomb. Never felt that whilst playing ut2003-4.

But that's just me. And who knows what UT2007 will bring...

Persefone said:

good post

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Ah right, now I can see better where you are coming from and I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying.

It's a very fine balance to walk between making a game accessible to new players and catering to the experienced ones...and I think with UT2kx Epic have leaned a little more towards the experienced players...which I can totally understand and support. I think that it's great that Epic puts the fans first.

However I would agree with you (sorry Brizz) that the learning curve for a beginner is very steep for the casual gamer and can be so intimidating that it puts people off.

It does feel right now as though hitscan dominates too much and so much of the game is about shooting pixel sized players from across the map, and dodging away to maintain your health instead of close up fighting.

As for players on foot against vehicles. I actually think that the balance right now is pretty good..the only vehicle that a player has no chance against on foot is the lev. But I would like to see power ups incorporated more into ONS (and indeed power-ups instead of adrenaline in other gametypes). IIRC only 4 of the retail ONS maps feature the amp (Severence, Red Planet, Torlan and Crossfire....although in Severence the placement is so bad as to make it pointless). Power-ups are a brilliant way of giving an on-foot player and advantage over vehicles. The amp means you can bring down a Raptor with one avril, that you can take a tank out with link or shock primary in seconds...but it is really under implemented in the gametype.

Persefone please install battlefield 2 and uninstall this "like duracell bunny" game, I want to stop jumping .

Would you all please stop using so maney words. My brain hurts, So I cant keep track of what your saying.

Sir_Brizz said:

But what you are talking about is MASTERING the game, not learning the game. IOW, just like any other game, I can pick up UT and learn all the basic movements rather quickly. However, if I want to learn all the intricacies (essentially mastering the movement) I have to spend a great deal more time on it.

The BASE game has no more learning curve than any other game does. However, that curve goes up exponentially from learning and mastering, which most games don't involve. For example, I can pick up any realism shooter and master the movement in a relatively short amount of time. You can't do that with UT.

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I guess the difficulty of a game is something totally subjective and what's easy for one may be difficult for another. I know that many of those movements are advanced, but the fact is that experienced players know them and new players don't....which means a new player feels a huge gap between what he can do and what experienced players can do.
Let me give an example: I was a console gamer and had never played a game on a PC until a mate showed me MoH 3 or 4 years ago. I had never used keyboard/mouse to control a game and had no experience of online gaming. So my first go on MoH my mate says, "go here, stand here, face that way and wait" and sure enough 2 players cam through a door and a killed them. It carried on like that most of the day....but can you imagine doing that on UT2k4? In realism games the weapons are all more or less the same...machine gun, rifle, pistol...all really hitscan just with different ranges. There's nothing complex and basically whoever sees the other player first will probably kill them. There's pretty much no way of dodging away and because of this you just need average aim (with the same kind of weapons) and a degree of map knowledge to be able to hold your own on a server.
With UT2k4 this won't really get you far. Aim with hitscan is really difficult to master and it will be a long while before a player is capable of getting kills with the lg or shock. Projectiles are also tricky to the new player against someone who knows how to play. You might see them first, might get them with a rocket or flak primary...then he's going to know you are there, dodge-around and kill you.

I was playing UT2k4 (never having played 2k3) for days before I even knew what was killing me...and weeks later I was still languishing around the bottom of the servers scores.

Now I'm not criticising the game, because I really love UT and it's pretty much the only game I play. I think that the sophistication that makes it tricky to pick up also makes it so rewarding to play and get good at.....but at the same time I recognise that it is much harder than any realism game which a player can pick up and start getting kills from the off.....with UT it takes a lot more patience...and sadly, a lot of people don't have the patience and don't bother spending the time trying to understand how the different weapons work....they get owned by players who move so fast that they never even feel that they are getting close, and give up.

I know of the changes that Epic are making for UT2k7 by changing the mini for the stinger...and afaik there's still been no confirmation of the LG. I also think that increasing the size of player models will help...and it seems that Epic want to make the fighting more in-your-face.
I pretty much trust them and am sure I'm going to like the game as I love UT2k4...but I really hope that they do find some way to make it a little less intimidating for new players, because for me it is a huge shame that a game as brilliant and rewarding as this gets overlooked by people who find it too intimidating.

I'm a big fan of Assault, though I don't play it as often because I dislike the way once you learn the chokepoints you no longer need to learn anything else... Reasons I don't play them online: dialup, stale levels, and the already low population. I suspect it's because other gametypes don't take as much knowledge to play well...it's still great for single player.

I also like DDom but I will agree that it's kind of castrated over the original Domination. Not chaotic enough...still fun though.

Either way, I won't really miss the gametypes all that much.

I was a fan of every UT, I never really considered any of them 'better' though 2003 clearly wasn't perfect. UT2004 is my favorite because I love running over people! Muahaha.

One thing I will say directly to the current conversation is....it takes too much brainpower to try to figure out what the hell someone in here is trying to say, so I'm not going to try to respond.

Sir_Brizz said:

We aren't likely to see another CS for multitudinous reason, and CS is by far the most played game ever. It's also a given that, for the time being, realism games are going to be more popular than sci-fi games. I haven't come up with a good reason why this is true so far, but I'm sure they are there because the player numbers in the different types of games (as well as what people are actually buying) speaks for itself.

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It´s repeated in this forums like a mantra realism games are going to be more popular, realism games are going to be more popular. Why? I don´t think the sci-fi setting is the problem, the problem is the gameply, quite simple in realism games and quite hidden in UT. Is checkers more popular than chess in internet? I think it is not, why is CS more popular than UT? UT no only is the best shooter, it is probably one of the best games ever so, why is so unpopular? Nobody knows its rules and mechanic.

Sir_Brizz said:

Comapred to the rest of the community? ONS/CTF/DM/TDM are the most played gametypes in UT2k4. They have been from the first day it was purchased. You can't really argue that, the facts are there everywhere stats are. Epic would be stupid to drop any of those gametypes, and even more stupid to give on of the other gametypes another chance (in the retail game, not talking bonus packs here). It is a huge percentage. You can count on one hand the number of populated BR/DDOM servers at any given time throughout the day, yet there are always more than 20 populated CTF servers.

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Compared to the rest of games. This is not a civil war between UT gametypes. The facts are UT is only played by a few hardcore unrealers, and I can count with one hand the number of standard BR/DDOMservers so this games never had a chance.

Sir_Brizz said:

I doubt anyone here would disagree with the fact that Epic needs some better tutorials with the game. I will, however, disagree that UT is difficult to pick up. How is it any different from any other game? It has the basic movements: forward, reverse, strafe left, strafe right, jump, shoot. I picked up UT2k3 Demo the first day it came out, and I was able to learn how to play it fairly quickly. The difficult part (and IMO the part that is best described as "difficult to master") is the EXTENDED movement like wall dodging, dodge-running, and boost dodging. In a nutshell, UT2k4 is no harder to pick up and play than any other game, but is alot harder to MASTER than most games.

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Unreal is very different from other games. In Unreal the movement is part of combat like no other game and how to move in every situation it isn´t evident, at all. Every weapon need a different technique in certain circumstances, but how can know this the new player?. The player needs a deep knowledge of every map, and this is the core of Unreal gameplay, but... I could carry on but i think you can see pick up this game is something more than know the moves.

To master this game is to be able of put out other experienced unrealers, no the knowledge of the techniques and basic strategies necessary to play the game. That´s the basic

Sir_Brizz said:

I agree with that, but the community in general doesn't. IMO, BR requires at least twice as much strategy as CTF (assuming that the maps are crappy Thorns remixes) and ends up being at least twice as much fun. But it's hard to find a BR server, let alone one without Zark/IG/LG/MyCrapMutator/PoopOnSticksMutator/etc. So while I do think that BR is the best of the core gametypes, I don't think Epic has any need to support it any longer.

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What Epic needs is to get this game more accessible and see what happen then. They have a diamond and they don´t know how to show it.

Sci-fi is a subculture for a reason.

It's popular, but you don't see sci-fi programs on at 9pm, you see CSI, ER, etc. You see programs about gritty 'real' stuff.

More people will always relate to a 'realism' thing than a sci-fi thing. There's a massive sci-fi following of course, but it's still a minority.

What is 'INA' and 'Anet'?

Hmm, I´m mostly realism freak (got my account here, cuz of Infiltration Mod) and I´m UT fan, cuz Unreal was my first 3d game (I´ve played through).
Also I´m a fan of UT, cuz it is the most realistic looking scifi shooter from the UT & Q3 fraction type games.
I like UT from the point of view that it is a combat sport, not military.

I like Sci Fi, and I´m a realism freak, conclusion: I want a realistic Sci Fi game.

My wish for UT2007: No more hopping clowns in a circus using table sized weapons whith slow glowing turtle projectiles.
I want UT2007 beeing optically as photorealistic as possible, the combatants looking cool and serious, weapons looking beliveable and not oversized, effective weapon behavior (fast and powerful projectiles), real life behaving physics (not to hectical, right acceleration...).


I too would like to have more DEV activity.

Epic don't get involved with the community?
Okay then, tell me one other game developer that holds competitions that gives away $1,000,000 to community mod teams.. Wallpaper Weekly and Fansite Friday kinda pale into insignificance..