So what has happened to the modding community??

The skills required to mod anything for UT3 have increased significantly.

Adding voices now requires coding-skills that go beyond using a voice-pack template.
model-parts have replaced skins, which means that you need to know how to model and skin (ie : two people for one job)

mapping definitely has extended the skill-set required to that of an entire team (textures, models, sound, lighting, decorating the map and of course the map-design itself). That is if you want to deliver pro-quality design and have a relatively short time to market.

I think there may be another reason why there are so few mods in development :
it is easier to enjoy the core-game compared to learning the skills required to change anything

UPaint may not have been the 'best' program, but at least it smoothed the learning curve which made it easier for people to feel like they were doing something.

Mapping in UT'99 could be done by opening UnrealEd.
Now it practically demands a decent plan/design before a 'basic' map can be completed.

The average amateur is too impatient for that kind of stuff.
They don't want to 'waste time' with planning as that is the least attractive/glamorous part of the job.

It probably also explains why a lot of partial edits of existing maps (like a 'WAR-Torlan with more tanks and stuff') exist, because modding an existing idea is faster and more rewarding.

One really has to wonder if having an editor for maps like Halo3 had could have done for mapping what Upaint did for skinning.
I think it could have helped provided the community had welcomed those attempts.

Voice packs do require alot more sounds than they used to as well because of all the bots feedback, thats one thing I found with making my own powerups is that I could either use the ones Epic does. Like for eg, if I make something to replace the udamage with the vampyric damage then I had a choice of having no bot feedback for that or leaving the udamage one in.

So yeah it affects alot of areas not just the voicepacks themselves, if I wanted to add 1 sound I couldnt because of all the links to the voice, not that I could match the voice of epic characters anyways. Its become alittle more difficult to extend Epic's gameplay somewhat and have something fully complete, kinda makes making something entirely new more attractive in one way.

The absence of a mod system I can see being problematic in the future or until someone provides tutorials on how to get things going in a TC setting.

Edit: Found this on a link to polycount in the skaarj thread, http://pioroberson.com/tuts/tut_ut3_custom_head_model.htm

Basically it's too time and skill intensive these days to do it purely for fun.

For me personally, it gets to the point where it takes SOO long to make a totally custom map by myself, I really start to get sick of the concept by the end of it, because you know, I have so many other ideas and concepts too but here I am working on the same one forever.
I start questioning if the theme or idea was even worth it in the first place.
And then you release it....

Knowing how to do EVERYTHING is *possible*, but the things-to-do list never ends - so eventually I just rush together some parts, and that effects the final quality. Only takes one bad thing to make people say it sucked these days.

I never thought it would come to this, but after making 2 maps for ut3, i've really started to lose interest.. Not in actual mapping or doing whats involved, its hell fun to me - I just feel like I should be getting paid to spend so much time on something using such a skill... other people do.
Only difference is I probably wont be working on what *I* want - which was the whole draw for me in the first place. hmm

All of this makes me kinda sad tbh, and I dont want to turn others away either. Having done what I have will probably be the thing that gets me a job in the first place, so it's not a complete waste of time or anything i guess.
I will probably still work on some stuff though maybe. Saying all of this has really got me thinking.

DGUnreal said:

The community is there, most of it is just newbies though.

No offense meant...
The IQ of the community seems to have dropped considerably...
I've been with it since very early on (Unreal and UT99 days) and I dont ever remember such immaturity among a percentage. Perhaps this is due to the younger people now into gaming and the consoles.

Click to expand...

I began coding in my home country when I just entered high-school (which is a pretty good record in my country since coding officially starts in Varsity). I coded with a bunch of guys that did crazy stuff. That was 10 years ago.

Well, now, I also feel that IQ of the general public has dropped also.There are fewer kids doing some really awesome stuff..... well, my view

Rankz said:

Well, now, I also feel that IQ of the general public has dropped also.There are fewer kids doing some really awesome stuff..... well, my view

Click to expand...

No, the brainless people just breed a lot faster.

Jrubzjeknf said:

No, the brainless people just breed a lot faster.

Click to expand...

You have no idea how correct that statement is.....

Because the editor runs like absolute crap on my 3.4ghz w/ 2GB ram.. and I pretty much suck at building anyway. I'm much better at detailing existing things.

Because playing the original stock game itself is utterly boring, and I'd rather putz around with previous incarnations and other games, where it's a lot easier to craft certain things.

Because no one else that I know outside of these forums owns the game

It's just reference shift. Had someone released a map looking like a bad UT3 one for UT2k4, he'd have been proclaimed a mapping god. Release a map looking like an awesome UT2k4 one for UT3 and most people aren't going to play it, even if this was the most balanced and dynamic map ever created.
So having all these Epic-quality normal mapped high detail meshes is not an option anymore, it's a requirement if you want your map played at all.

Also, it's not just UT3, it's the whole state of gaming these days.
Everything needs to be fast, cheap, easy, forgotten and replaced the next weekend; games, editors, movies, books, etc.
The popularity of consoles and mediocre games nowadays is just one sign of this trend.

Now, how many relatively new gamers ( let's say the generation that got into gaming with the first xbox and is now about 16 years old) do you know that have any interest in modding a game at all?

How many of those are actually tech-savvy and/or smart enough to do this?

How many of those will stick with one game long enough to actually begin, let alone complete, such a project?
--

The time when a computer was viewed as something magical, a tool that offered all kinds of new and creative ways to get stuff done, as well as as offer a whole new world in which to get stuff done(which got me into computers), is long gone.
Computers and consoles are household appliances now. Casual.
You turn them on, chat with a friend, kill hookers for half an hour in GTA 4 and switch 'em off again.
Apparently, being able to manipulate and create on the most influential new medium of the century is considered 'nerd' nowadays, and something that should be frowned upon.

If you havent noticed "nerd" happens to be the people that keep the modern world running

I think one of the biggest problems is that "the little guy" doesen't really stand a chance now, modding for UT3 really requires you assemble a team of modders, or that you are very skilled and experianced indeed in several fields of modding, and that applies to even the most basic stuff like making a new player skin.

There's not much hope for the lone guy with minimal experiance and a good idea in his head, and this is exactly the kind of modder that usually fills in the gaps between the big and ambitious mods, and keeps a constant flow of little things coming.

I'm a modder like that, i have made a few small things that have kept some people happy, i dont have the experiance to make hugely ambitious or technically advanced things, but i have contributed to peoples enjoyment of several games, but with UT3.. i dont even know where to start, and there are probably a ton of "the little guy" modders like me out there who faces the same problem.

I have an idea: it involves Steam, Epic, Paypal and Google. AFAIK they do not compete with each other, and I guess there's nothing to lose for any of them

- You upload your content to Steam
- People download your mods.
- If they are for sale, Epic and Steam (maybe Sony and others) get part of the money for obvious reasons.
- Even if people are not that interested to buy(maybe after a 30 day trial) or the content remains strictly for free as it is done now, you are allowed to include a link to your homepage where you can promote your work, you become known in the industry and perhaps get contracts or a better job. Maybe it will be possible to allow Google ads and a Paypal donate button.
- Downloaders can rate your content. Then it would create a contest a bit like MSUC
- What's more, it has some similarities with business model that is known to work: Xbox Live. And Sony has their own network and they allow mods already


Note that such a thing can take at least 2 years to implement, make it 3 or more If this is can be done, is legit, which content can be accepted, how to keep strict control of it (you may need to have a contract, have your competence recognized by 1 year of useful and not half-assed or malware content, have your mods digitally signed, etc...), the consequences of all this, I don't have much clue.

Or this is a bit too much and I should sleep a bit better ...

You can't sell mods.

And anyway, I'd like to see an experiment done with UT - a mod that uses quality content, yes, but not AAA quality like everyone's shooting for. I'm talking about a mod that relies more on shaders and post-processing to look good, as opposed to super-high quality meshes. I'd like to see if that'd succeed or even look good.

Then do it

I'm planning it, but I'm already on another mod team, so my time is limited

Put Inf On --- God Mode It!!

I glanced over most of this thread.

So what happened to the mod community? I have few answers ( feel free to disagree)

1) Competitive edge, I believe Lruce mentioned this in some form is that in the UT 99 days there were so many different and unique levels just from the stock textures and also many that used custom textures. Also in the UT99 days there were the elite mappers out there, some are still around others have disappeared or are working in the industry. These guys really set the bar high and some people followed in their footsteps or tried to at least and there was a large influx of levels from the newbies and pros.

2) The tools: The UT 99 editor was all BSP based and textures. There were a few static object but not many. Now those pro mappers back then could make a bad ass level in a day or two, for other people maybe longer but still the tool was simple enough anyone could make something decent.

3)Incentive: I guess we sort of have that now with MSUC coming around the corner but back in the day it was about the Ownage from Cliffy, I remember I downloaded each and every single ownage level knowing that the content was the best of the best. Any mapper that got ownage pretty much had bragging rights and in way it was something to look up to, to see what did those mappers do that got them ownage and how can I apply that to my maps...

As of now I think the competitive edge has died, once in a while a UT 3 map makes headlines on BU or you find a nice little gem in the forums but there is no longer that influx of maps that we used to have. Now there are reasons for that, similar to the above.

Tools: Damn they have evolved, it's almost like how the gaming industry evolved from the days of the lone programmer in the basement doing everything to now 100 person + teams making big games. The levels now take a lot more effort than make a BSP shell done... you need to mesh it, add blocking volumes, lighting effects, kismet( if needed) doing all of that takes a lot of time. Now it's up the individual how much time are they willing to spend to deliver top quality stuff. More often than not the reason we see a lack of maps is most of the top end levels are taking time to make i.e. UCMP, CBP and other mod teams.

Incentive: Ownage is dead, I wish that was still around, we got MSUC now and I am sure we will see a ton of new content roll in that people are not sharing now. But the way I see it that beneficial but also restrictive, in terms of deadlines to submit content. Now not everyone can commit time to make those deadlines but with something like Ownage when ever you were done and felt it was worth being 'owned' you could submit it in for review by Cliff no deadlines no massive cash prize ( though that is nice) but with something like ownage it really keeps the community active to strive to make better and better maps.

Cliff is now on Gears as we all know (wish he would ownage for GoW PC levels and get that community some life) but perhaps maybe at some point hopefully some one down at Epic could take the time to find the best of the best that people make either in the map packs or individual releases on the forums or if that is not possible bring back Pwnage! the community driven version of Ownage...

I could ramble on but I'll stop here, kind of losing my train of thought. Hope that made sense...

Unknown Target said:

You can't sell mods.

Click to expand...

Ok. Then remove the selling part.

You still have:
- You upload your content to Steam
- People download your mods.
- ...
- .... you are allowed to include a link to your homepage where you can promote your work, you become known in the industry and perhaps get contracts or a better job. Maybe it will be possible to allow Google ads and a Paypal donate button.
- Downloaders can rate your content. Then it would create a contest a bit like MSUC


Better now?

Benfica have you heard of the guy making drivers for Creative sound cards that put up a little paypal link on his website to fund his project. Creative got all pissy about it because they felt that he was getting money by doing it, in which he was. He even admitted it on their forums.

I would think epic would have the same attitude towards such an action. After all it is against the agreement that you agreed to when you installed UT3. Like it or not. I wouldn't do it, they have the right to sue. Not to say they would, but I wouldn't risk it.

edit: Maybe if you made it clear the money was for keeping the site up and not for funding the creation of modifications it would work.

Then again fileplanet and all those thingos put ads up on their sites and they host mods... Double standards perhaps?

But Fileplanet and whatnot don't make the mods, they just host them. Anyway, Benfica, it sounds like a pretty cool idea, but that would mean Epic would pretty much have to get in bed (and in that area become dependent on) with a competitor, so I don't see that happening.