New scoring system... Proximity=teamwork?

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The_Fur

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Ok, i was going to do all your posts but i simply grew tired and i;ve said exactly the same thing in the last 6 posts or so anyway.

I do love it when 16 years olds say anything about Maturity (i.e. eddy). It is laughable.
Yes your posts have been a positive sign of maturity, your well founded and factually based and especilally in-formative writing has enlightened us all. :rolleyes:

Teamwork will no work on the pubs.
My very first post:
The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.


Scoring should be based on a combination of teamwork and accuracy.
At the end of the game it'll be one team congratulating the other on their good tactics/excellent teamwork/smart moves whatever. Rather then mr 1337W4nK3r spamming his score.
Now don't give me that Teamwork doesn't work on publics BS as i've experienced it myself.
Best game of CS i've ever had lasted 15 seconds, we planned the round before, got into position and on my mark everybody went in at once at different points. It was almost like a real CT action, didn't lose anybody in our team and all the 's were down within those 8 seconds of action (7secs to get into place).
Another example, and i can think of many more.


You forum junkies just don't get it. Those who admin servers see this first hand. If we try and force people to play a certain style then they will leave. You cannot enforce team play. You can suggest it only.
Here you said it yourself and I've said exactly the same:
Now how can you discourage people just going off alone and trying teamwork instead? Exactly by scrapping the frags. By basing the score on the eachievement as a team you ecourage people to play like a team.
Now note the following words D I S C O U R A G E, discourage E N C O U R A G E, encourage. Now if you take a good look at these two words you will note that I did not say Force, you will note that in fact I said D I S C O U R A G E and E N C O U R A G E.
I'm not saying you can't have your score i'm saying the score should not be based on kills. It should be based on team behaviour rather then kills. Quite simply because as stated before kills promote going off on your own and get as many befrore the others "steal" them. You are competing against your own "teammates" while in a team game yu should be competing against the other team instead.
Note: P R O M O T E, promote. As in E N C O U R A G E, a specific kind of behaviour. Again note that they do not spell F O R C E, force.
And that should be promoted, simply be scrapping the frags and basing score on a combination of other factors such as survival, accuracy, teamwork, rounds won, rounds lost etc.
And again. P R O M O T E, proomote. By now even you will have seen that again the word Force has not been used. It is about P R O M O T I N G a certain behaviour.


We all want to have fun. We just have different ideas which way this Mod should go.
And strangely enough mine coincide with INF's. To make iNF the number one realitic Team game. Which requires the removal of frags since frags are the mortal enemy of teamwork or any other form of play exept deathmatch per my many examples but i shall repeat them all the same:
The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.
Best game of CS i've ever had lasted 15 seconds, we planned the round before, got into position and on my mark everybody went in at once at different points. It was almost like a real CT action, didn't lose anybody in our team and all the 's were down within those 8 seconds of action (7secs to get into place).
That is the same reason why for instance in The Opera you got guys running around with shotguns. Because you get a lot of kills. While in The opera getting kills is basically irrelevant the only way you are going to score well is by using style but since they see kills they don't care even if they end up on the bottom of the scoring list as long as they have the most kills.
This led to people abandoning style and simply going for kills (even though you can get up to 45 times the cash (which is what ranking in The Opera is based on) for a single kill if it's stylish).
So within a week or two you didn't see any rolls anymore no people wall jumping, sliding or any other cool moves. Just people running around with shotguns or dual desert eagles trying to get the most kills.
I can think of more if you are still incapable of understanding.

Team play exist in clan matches.
Yes it does whioch brings me to this point supporting the fact that frags do not belong in a game like INF.
Now take a look why in clans actually exist. Because they want to be the best AS A TEAM. Individual frags mean nothing, all that counts is the teams result in the end. The most important player in a clan match is not nescessarilly the one with the most frags.
Effectively in clan matches frags do not exist. So that should be what publics are strifing for since this is after all a TEAM game.


It has been said before. You want team play then join a clan.
Here you are the one forcing (F O R C I N G, note the difference with E N C O U R A G I N G and P R O M O T I N G) ME to do something. Something which in fact should not be nescessary since infiltration is a TEAM game. Guess what the primary goal is... yes strangely enough it is TEAMplay. That means that the MAIN form of playing should be TEAM-based.
Maybe you are missing my point. but since this is a TEAM game it is exactly what public games should be like. TEAMwork should be the 1st goal everything else is secondary.
I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team.
Look those words again: E N C O U R A G E, and P R O M O T E. See? still no Force.


It was stated to not tell Warren and company how to run this game.
And what am I doing? I'm pointing out my opinion on the matter of scoring and why the current system wont work to reach INF's goals IE to become a realistic TEAM game.


I say if I was Warren and the INF company I would want to know all this feedback. Especially those who are supporting the INF communities by putting up expensive servers.
Well if you don't like it then don't put up your "expensive" server. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. I'm sure we could find another person or company to host a server. Especially when 286 comes out many new people will come bringing many new servers. You will not be missed.

We are paying for the hardware and T3 lines to support everyone's online addiciton. Don't forget that people.
Yup ofcourse that means that you should have instant controll... maybe you are forgetting that this mod is not yours and that you have no more to say then me on how the game is developped.
You have no more to say then me or any new guy to INF.

So the previous MUF bashing is way out of line. I see very little appreciation for all the clans who front the cost so you can play online.
Well if they don't like it they can play another game or come here and put up some arguements which you have completely failed to do. Your only arguement so far has been that you run a server. Well whooptie doo.
Hoe does me running or not running a server in validate my opinion? please elaborate. Just because you run a server does not mean you have more say in the development of this game.
In fact if were going that way I'd outweigh you since I beta test this game, now i'm not using that to in-validate your points now am i? No I gave example after example of games where counting frags killed the teamwork on-line. And you so far have not come up with even one point where counting frags has improved teamwork. In fact you have not come up with any positive points frags have besides the fact that you like them.



I think personlized scoring has value. I like to know who is playing well and if I am kicking some ass or not.
And so do I, I wnat to klnow how much I am helping the TEAM And this can be done by another system then frags. per my previous examples.
I think the scoring system did favor the cqb'ers and why not? Those are the dogs in the trenches fighting it out. The snipers got less points for a reason, lower risk. Maybe the scoring could go one point for one kill as a compromise.
How is that a compromise? And on top of this I've allready give examples of Why FRAGS DO NOT WORK!!! Oh and here I gave a example of how you could measure your value to the team without using frags.
I didn't say you where but kills should not be the basis of teamwork. There are many ways to determine who has been the biggest asset to the team besides frags.

IMO score should be based on mix of the various other parameters. So say ((teamwork+accuracy)/2xrounds won)-100 point per TK (note that teamwork and accuracy are in percentages so 100 points is not that hard to get your hands on.
Oh wait I forgot you don't even want this game to be an enjoyable experience for people who "do not put up expensive servers". or are not in clan matches.


You have not given a strong arguement on any topic yet.
WAHAHAHAHAHAHA, uhm ok lets get real here. I have given many arguements on why teamwork cannot exist in conjuction with frags and your entire counter floats on the fact that "you set up an expensive server".
Let's see about not putting up any points, lets see how many you put up...
And meat sac i have teh same arguments simply because it is true. Could you please point me to a single game that has frags and at the same time has good teamwork on public servers?

guess what... there are none.
Any answer from you? nope.

oh and point out a single example where i did not state the simple truth on how frags affect players in any of my above points. Good luck, you'll need it.
Any takers? nope.

meat sac, please point out the "posive" effect frags have on teamwork and please do not place them in a utopic environment.
Still nothing, not a single reason why frags should be kept other then the fact that you like em.


Your suggestion that beta is more importand that running servers for EVERYONE (including you) is ridiculous and selfish.
I did not suggest this, you were the one that stated that you in some reason were superiour because you put up your server or whatever. I on the otherhand am incvolved in the development of this mod. No beta testers no mod, no mod nothing to waste your server on. You stated this noww you finish this.


You clearly have an agenda with this mod and it is obvious you are in the minority. Sorry to state the obvious but I feel you need the help.
Guess what my "agenda" is, to make this the number one TEAM-modeification for Unreal Tournament... OH NO... THE SHAME!!!!!!!
Quite simple really. If I and my x-com buddies would go into WWIIOL and started demanding UFO's should we get it just because we are with more people? Uhm I don't think so since that is not in line with the games goals.
Provided I could get enough people to support this this would by your definition automatically mean that they should obey my wishes? Because after all I am with the majority.
In fact I think the majority wanted the M60, so i guess that is what the team HAS to work on now? :rolleyes:


My interaction with you leaves me incredibly unimpressed. No wonder your are attacked everytime you post. You are also proving to not have the level of comprehension to understand all points discussed. You go off on tangents and send everyone spinning.
Maybe you should read what has been said and see who is not comprehending what.


I did see you online ONCE. And if that is any indication of your ability then I am correct in assuming you are not good at this game and thus are so defensive (I.e. see your naseau inducing post count).
Yeah ofcourse All my 3000 posts were made in this thread to defend myself for your incmprehensible levels of non-recognition :rolleyes:


If you think you can discuss any topic like a clear minded lucid individual then I will welcome it, but so far you are not capable of such. So I will cease any further pointless arguing with you. You simply just don't get it.
If only you had done so.


quote:
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Originally posted by The_Fur
That will mean that eventually they will spill over to the Team-play servers and ruin those as well. Simply because they are the masses.

Anyway I can't restate this enough. INF is a TEAMgame, so it should be about teamwork. You won't get that by making it optional.
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Fur, proving my point about forcing a certain gaming style. If the masses want it, who are you (one extremist) to tell everyone how to play?
See the X-com example.


And your last attempt at responding to my post was futile at best. I do not NORMALLY take the time to go back and hit the little quote button or read more posts you direct to others. I was responding things directed at me. I don't feel the need to repost your nonsensical dribble anyway. You are simply the most thick headed individual I have ever had the displeasure of conversing with. I say bring it to the servers! and put your money where your foot, err mouth is
You have still not brought up a single valid arguement supported bty any sort of facts or actual reasoning why we should keep frag while I have brought up reasons why NOT to keep frags. Youer entire arguement floats on the fact that you like em, oh and ofcourse the masses (whoch are irrelevant simply because they adapt to the game, not the other way around fortunately. WElse we'd still be playing pong). Oh yeah and your precious server.


Haha, Fur your reasoning simply makes me laugh. Infantile mentality is what I would describe you as. You can make up any bullsh*t reasoning you have to justify your closed-mindedness. You do not control how this mod is played and never will. Chew on that for a while when you are playing with your bots offline.

"." i mean wtf? you are the one not even trying to put up an arguement.


The rest of us will continue to play this mod the way we see fit no matter how much you post.
Oh so now you are the self appointed voice for everybody else as well? Anyway I don't care how YOU play, however you will not be encouraged in your teamwork raping ways by frags.


For the record you have not disproven any comments I have stated. You are the one who continues to taste feet.

... could you start at the beginning and read the first 500 or so lines? I have disproven EVERY single "arguement" you put up while you have not even attempted to counter any of mine.


Fur, you make my arguement for me everytime you open your mouth.

"I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team." Fur

Again Fur your definition of "proper" play should not be railroaded down the throats of others. Like you love to do.
as my friendly weird white roundfaced forum animal allready pointed out i did not railroad anything down anybodies throat. Oh and I pointed this out in the first half of this text as well. Just in case you missed it... AGAIN.


My post count is getting embarrassinly high, almost 30 so I will not post anymore. I would hate to rack up a count of 3000+ like some people. That is too much opinion ramming for anyone person. Cya online for a fun game of TDM. Come join the fun Fur.
"."

your opinion is yours Fur and means nothing to me. I won't lose any sleep knowing you don't like or agree with me.

Damn this wasn't even amusing you could at least have put up some sort of arguement.
 
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Sup?

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Fur, you are a well rounded guy and I think that not only should INF be based on your beliefs, but also every game! You speak for everybody on planet Earth and I'm happy to have you as my guide!
 

Meat Sac

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What was the point of all that Fur, to up your post count more? The insults were out of line on your last post. I tried to end taking the high road and finish where I started but you wouldn't let it go.

80% of that was taken out of context or posts you stated that I didn't bother reading. There was also a ton of posts that had nothing to do with me. As I stated before I don't feel the need TO READ ALL your post unless directed at me. Don't try and put words in my mouth with topics you are discussing with others. I like your little snide remarks after all the quotes. Sure you can say anything when you have the last word, whatever makes you feel better man.

I will continue to play this game as I want to. I am going my way and you are going yours, glad they aren't on the same path.
 

The_Fur

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Exactly you didn't read em all maybe that is why you are so full of ****, and ALLL of those quotes wwere directly from you since i simply took everything YOU said and pointed out the gaping holes in your reasoning.


BYTW you have still not put up any counter arguement.
 

Meat Sac

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Originally posted by Meat Sac
Nor do you Fur.

This whole topic has Fur's statements in it telling people what he feels the mod should be and how is should be played (he has a right to his opinion, just don't force it on anyone). He has a closed minded approach. Anyone who offers an opposite view is treated with little respect or with a condescending tone. Fur is not better than anyone in any matter and shouldn't act as such.

I do apologize for me being brought down to an uncivilized conversation level.. I started off with diplomatic statements but was prodded by Fur into a pissing match. That is not who I am, nor will I continue in that vain.

My final thoughts regarding this matter.

I totally disagree with Fur's opinions as to what level team play actually exist with this mod. My take is pubs will be the same and clan matches will always be based on tactics and team play. Agree or disagree, no matter. I will not suggest or force anyone to play in a particular manner on the pubs. That is our right as server admins. EAS may change the dynamics of this mod, we will have to wait and see. TDM will always be about frag count on the pubs. Not in clan matches, true that is all about final score as it should be.

I thought Fur should read this one more time :)
 

Meat Sac

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Originally posted by The_Fur
Exactly you didn't read em all maybe that is why you are so full of ****, and ALLL of those quotes wwere directly from you since i simply took everything YOU said and pointed out the gaping holes in your reasoning.


BYTW you have still not put up any counter arguement.

Again, what's with the hostility Fur?

I simply will not read all your post. Understand that and be happy. But dont direct them at me as if I stated them or answer them as I am talking to you like you did. Bad form on your part. I did read your entire marathon last post and not all those quotes are from me, stating they are is just untrue. I have stated my opinions you just disagree.
 
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Bad.Mojo

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Its fu<i></i>cking wastes of flesh like you that make me stay in the Off Topic forum, Meat Sac. People like you and Sup turn Infiltration into Counter-Strike and seem to get your nancy rocks off doing it.

I understand why you'd want frag counts, Meat Sac. The only way to prove your he-bitch man-tittied self is good for anything is by having stastical data to back up your worthless ass. Big kids won't let you play kickball? Go home and play Inf. 31 frags? TOUCHDOWN, YOU JOCKS!

I understand where you're coming from, believe me, I've read enough of my sister's abnormal psychology books to comprehend the minds of mutant mongoloid children like yourself. I especially love the way you preach your opinion about Fur preaching his opinions. The hilariously subdued hypocrisy is an example of what happens when you force your baby to drink three gallons of paint thinner.

Please, don't let your over-thirty post count force you to go back to picking paint chips off the wall as an after-school snack, though. I'm certainly interested in what you have to say, and the forums are probably a better place to do it than on [\/]34+ s4xX0rz r33+ 56k z3rv3r, because there you can only say "j00 suxX0rz f4gG0+" in one-line spurts.

While people like myself and Fur have a general commitment to trying to improve the Infiltration experience, you have a general commitment to seeing how many of your chunky fingers you can cram into your rectum without needing to go to the emergency room.

Please, before you go and spout a bunch of hypocrisy and stupidity and generally make yourself look like the evolutionary equivalent of a talking anus, <i>think</i>, son... think. I know its hard for a second-grade drop out like yourself, but give it a shot. With some serious mental practice, you can become a regular Mathlete! Go for the Gold! One day, you may even realize your dream of running in the Special Olympics (I got ten bucks on the kid with PKU.)
 

Meat Sac

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Wow, another INF extremist comes out of the woodwork. Thanks for the constructive criticism Mojo, oh wait there wasn't any. It was all name calling. What was your point other than to attack me with insults? There is nothing positive that can come from your post. Jeez, thanks for chimming in though. This thread was losing momentum and almost was resolved.

I turn the floor over to MOJO. Go ahead man, I'm done here.
 

Cpt.Cypher

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Whoa!!! He blew his top!!! :lol:

But seriously. I have read the entire topic and meat sac you have not made a counter-argument to saying that frags discourage teamplay.

Just keep in mind that Infiltration is aiming for as much realism as gameplay will allow and as there saying goes "Not pleasing the masses since....". The Infiltration team is aiming for alot of realism and frag counting is not realistic. If you want a game that is strictly about frags there are other great mods out there (SF. People say Tac-Ops is good, but I don't see why yet). Now I can see that you use tactics in clan games (I would hope so ;) ) but why should those that don't have the time or skills not have the privlage of a good, tactical game. I think they should in my opinion. And as such I believe that efforts should be made to remove the single-minded mentality of the pubs. Now many would say that it can't be done, it will never be done. But if you look at history (not just gaming, any history) its filled with things that people said could not be done. Now making a public server a team oriented environment will not be something little Cypher Jr. will studying in school, but it would be a grand step in the world of gaming. And with the direction Infiltration is going I am afraid that people working as a team will be a must.

Ideas from me to make pubs better organized
- the removal of frags as a score, make it a private score to just you, take a pic if you need the record
- addition of a planning phase
- players cannot enter mid map
- bonus for accomplashing assinged objective
- objectives added such as "hold this area" and clear out this area and hold
 

Bad.Mojo

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You long ago destroyed the ability to make this constructive, Ball Sac. Now that you've caused it to degrade with your tumourous infestations of <b><i>MY</b></i> forums, and now that Fur has pointed out your idiocy to me, I felt the unbelievable need to respond, much like I feel the unbelievable need to pick on, and eventually drive to suicide, the incredibly stupid. Just dumping a bit of chlorine into the shallow end of the gene pool, that's all.

You see, your inane, unfunny, unwitty, unintelligent, unsophisticated, unthought-out, unbelievably stupid comments rank among highly on my list of the Top Most Incredibly Dumb Fuc<i></i>king Things I Have Ever Read In My Entire Life, slightly edging out Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.

Now, I understand its not your fault the umbilical cord was knotted in the uterus, thereby depriving you of life giving oxygen and resulting in pre-natal brain damage, but please, keep your stupidity to the special ed class.

I could, as Fur did, go back over all your comments, and point out how much of a waste of human skin you are, but I won't. You insult people yourself, and you cram your opinion of Fur cramming his opinion down people's throats down people's throats. Ipso facto, you are some sort of hypocrite either to slow to understand that he's a charlatan idiot, or you just really want me to use you as a human punching bag.

Your idle threats of leaving the forum make me sick. Not because I'd be sad to see you go, but because quite the opposite -- you said you were leaving and then line up to take more abuse. I've taken on bigger, badder, and better than you, and I've <i>always</i> one. Cut your losses and get the hell out of my forums.

P.S.: To any dumbass long enough to read through this boring, useless waste of ones and zeroes, this post is marking my official comeback to the general forum. There was once a time when stupid off topic posts would be deleted or moved to the off topic section, now these tits are allowed to run free and rampant in the house that Mojo built. No more.
 

The_Fur

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But seriously. I have read the entire topic and meat sac you have not made a counter-argument to saying that frags discourage teamplay.
This is one of the points i have been trying to get trough his massive dinosour style skull for the past 3 pages or so but he's just not capable of comprehending it.


Again, what's with the hostility Fur?

WTF? the fact that you even DARE ask such a stupid question makes you a waste of protoplasm. You come here and act like you ****ing own the place with your pansy server and continue to attack me personally while completely ignoring any facts or arguements and in fact not bringing any of your own and you wonder why i'm pissed off at you?

You can't possibly be that stupid, i mean you could tutor "Dubya" in stupidity that's how ****ing stupid you are. It baffles belief.


I simply will not read all your post. Understand that and be happy. But dont direct them at me as if I stated them or answer them as I am talking to you like you did. Bad form on your part. I did read your entire marathon last post and not all those quotes are from me, stating they are is just untrue. I have stated my opinions you just disagree.
THOSE ARE YOUR ****ING POSTS YOU HYPOCRITE SON OF A SCALY CROTCHED WHORE. THEY ARE YOUR EXACT WORDS AND AS YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE THEY ARE ABOUT AS COHERENT AS CHICKEN SOUP. Don't pull that ****ing **** with me you waste of bloodcells.
 

vedder

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Originally posted by Bad.Mojo
Its fu<i></i>cking wastes of flesh like you that make me stay in the Off Topic forum, Meat Sac. People like you and Sup turn Infiltration into Counter-Strike and seem to get your nancy rocks off doing it.

I understand why you'd want frag counts, Meat Sac. The only way to prove your he-bitch man-tittied self is good for anything is by having stastical data to back up your worthless ass. Big kids won't let you play kickball? Go home and play Inf. 31 frags? TOUCHDOWN, YOU JOCKS!

I understand where you're coming from, believe me, I've read enough of my sister's abnormal psychology books to comprehend the minds of mutant mongoloid children like yourself. I especially love the way you preach your opinion about Fur preaching his opinions. The hilariously subdued hypocrisy is an example of what happens when you force your baby to drink three gallons of paint thinner.

Please, don't let your over-thirty post count force you to go back to picking paint chips off the wall as an after-school snack, though. I'm certainly interested in what you have to say, and the forums are probably a better place to do it than on [\/]34+ s4xX0rz r33+ 56k z3rv3r, because there you can only say "j00 suxX0rz f4gG0+" in one-line spurts.

While people like myself and Fur have a general commitment to trying to improve the Infiltration experience, you have a general commitment to seeing how many of your chunky fingers you can cram into your rectum without needing to go to the emergency room.

Please, before you go and spout a bunch of hypocrisy and stupidity and generally make yourself look like the evolutionary equivalent of a talking anus, <i>think</i>, son... think. I know its hard for a second-grade drop out like yourself, but give it a shot. With some serious mental practice, you can become a regular Mathlete! Go for the Gold! One day, you may even realize your dream of running in the Special Olympics (I got ten bucks on the kid with PKU.)

I know i said i was done with this thread but,
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Man you rule.
 
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