Why is nobody talking about Romney's Mormonism anymore?

hal · May 4, 2012

cryptophreak said:
It is admittedly difficult to avoid a smug disposition when batting children's arguments away, so after a while I stop trying.

It's hard to believe you'd say something like that.

My perception of you, like many other atheists I've seen, is that you take religion at face value. Like science, what you see is what you get. Well, it doesn't always work that way, my friend.

You see religious people and you think "simpletons".

Maybe there's something about religion that you don't understand. Have you thought about that? Maybe this universe holds a surprise or two. I personally don't feel comfortable smugly dismissing things that are possibly greater than my own comprehension.

It is you who seem close-minded when you scorn others for their beliefs. I'll be the first in line to examine religious assertions with cautious skepticism, but I'm not going to run around gleefully kicking people in the 'nads because it makes me feel superior.

Get over yourself.

Vaskadar · May 4, 2012

hal said:
I'll be the first in line to examine religious assertions with cautious skepticism, but I'm not going to run around gleefully kicking people in the 'nads because it makes me feel superior.

Get over yourself.

cryptophreak · May 4, 2012

hal said:
I'll be the first in line to examine religious assertions with cautious skepticism, but I'm not going to run around gleefully kicking people in the 'nads because it makes me feel superior.

Get over yourself.

This made me laugh. I understand the sentiment and used to agree -- maybe these guys had something that I just wasn't aware of yet. So I read the bible cover to cover. I read some of the Book of Mormon and the Quran and assorted Buddhist writings. I cross-examined religious leaders from every major denomination and then some. I've had more debates on the subject of religion that I can recall. And in all that time, not a single interesting or worthwhile point on the subject of supernatural entities or the value of faith has ever been made. These people are not the inheritors of any ancient secrets worth discovering. (Exception: There's some interesting information in the Buddhist tradition of a non-mystical, non-faith nature.)

And in my estimation, it's time to start announcing with considerable confidence backed by a good amount of data that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Perhaps we will eventually uncover some evidence of a creator or whatever, but religion is not the right place to look.

Sir_Brizz · May 4, 2012

cryptophreak said:
And in my estimation, it's time to start announcing with considerable confidence backed by a good amount of data that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Perhaps we will eventually uncover some evidence of a creator or whatever, but religion is not the right place to look.

Sorry, but the nature of any faith-based religion is that there literally is no proof, empirical or otherwise, to either support or deny the claims that are made. Belief in religion is a personal thing, one which, if you haven't experienced it yourself, obviously makes no sense to you.

There is a reason why older people with loads of life experience often "find religion" while mostly young, lacking life experience people are typically less committed to religion or consider themselves atheist or agnostic. It has nothing to do with brain power.

It's cool you've read all that stuff and studied religious leaders and learned nothing other than that you don't buy it. It really is. But you haven't figured out some great secret. I guess I'll offer my regrets that we are all apparently the first people to let you know this shocking, new information.

cryptophreak · May 4, 2012

Sir_Brizz said:
Sorry, but the nature of any faith-based religion is that there literally is no proof, empirical or otherwise, to either support or deny the claims that are made. Belief in religion is a personal thing, one which, if you haven't experienced it yourself, obviously makes no sense to you.

Yes, well, you more or less know my stance on this already. If you have no evidential reason to believe something and still claim it's true then you are a liar.

To say nothing of the mountains of evidence against many specific claims made by the religions I've named.

cryptophreak · May 5, 2012

I just realized I've been out of line and why.

I had a somewhat unusual upbringing in a religious household. I sometimes wake up a sobbing mess replaying old memories of being suddenly and unpredictably attacked physically. The justification used was religion and religious thinking, and that bleeds into my perception of "normal" religious people, whose motivations I definitely don't understand.

So you could say that it's been an unwitting goal of mine for years to prove that I didn't deserve that kind of treatment by "exposing" religion as a farce, and it kind of terrifies me that so many people believe it, including those who claim authority over me. This connection has been eating at me subconsciously but I didn't perceive it until now. I've taken that out on you guys, which you didn't deserve. I apologize.

For clarity, I still see no value in religion and it is still at odds with reality, but I probably shouldn't care about that so much. Cheers to anonymity. Also boobs:

Sir_Brizz · May 5, 2012

cryptophreak said:
Yes, well, you more or less know my stance on this already. If you have no evidential reason to believe something and still claim it's true then you are a liar.

The ambiguity of using the term "evidence" to back up your position is ridiculous, though. That which is determined scientifically is not the only form of "evidence" that exists and your blatant ignorance of the "why" of this whole thing undermines any point you've tried to make in the last four pages. Being insolent and brazen does not make you right. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but science can't even entirely explain a tiny fraction of existence today, and we are far beyond what we've ever known in the known history of this planet.

To say nothing of the mountains of evidence against many specific claims made by the religions I've named.

I guess it would depend on the specific claims you are arguing against. If we throw the broadest net possible based upon your arguments, then the only supplied evidence we can use is that "it's obvious that there is no God" which is pretty much exactly as meaningless as saying "it's obvious there is a God".

edit: I see your new post. I understand what you're saying there. Abuse messes people up.

cryptophreak · May 5, 2012

Edit: That's a dead end, I think. How about this instead: What value do you find in religion? Is it difficult to believe? If so, why do you choose to continue?

Renegade Retard · May 5, 2012

Everyone believes in something. Some believe in a higher being. Some believe that there are answers out there, but have not discovered them yet. Others, like yourself, believe that a higher being et al does not exist. Just because you don't believe in "religion" doesn't mean you don't believe in something.

So, to answer your question - it's no more difficult for someone to believe in a higher being than it is for you to believe one doesn't exist. Neither stance can be proven, and therefore both take the same amount of faith. Both sets of believers can feel just as strongly about their stance as the opposition.

Lizard Of Oz · May 5, 2012

cryptophreak · May 5, 2012

Renegade Retard said:
Neither stance can be proven, and therefore both take the same amount of faith.

Well that's just silly.

Let me filter some of this out by exclusively asking why people enjoy religion, and just for informational purposes.

Jacks:Revenge · May 5, 2012

cryptophreak said:
why people enjoy religion

that was basically my question.

but it seems like no one wanted to read the post.
I know it seems long but it wouldn't take more than a couple minutes to actually read it. the points are fairly concise.

it turned out to be a running train-of-thought type post, but it's pretty reasonable. I wish someone other than Ren and Zxan would try to address it.

Firefly · May 5, 2012

The way I deal with religious people is tolerance. If that's what they want to do with their life then fine. As long as the don't hurt anyone and don't preach.

While I'm a hardcore atheist I don't like telling people what to believe in. It's pointless so let them waste their life. The important thing is it's their life to waste. I've disproved the existence of god to myself many many times and that's enough for me.

Try that and you'll find more tolerance in return.

Jacks:Revenge · May 5, 2012

Firefly said:
As long as the don't hurt anyone and don't preach.

but they DO hurt people and preach.
all the time.

the Pope considers condoms a greater blasphemy than the prevention HIV/AIDS.
how many people in Africa alone are going to suffer and die as a result of his ludicrous proclamations?

Hermskii · May 5, 2012

My God and I really appreciate your "tolerance" Firefly.

Hey cryptophreak, your recent disclosure hurts to hear. I give you great credit for speaking up at all about it. I hear that discussing it is part of the healing process. I hope you heal as much as possible.

Sir Brizz, you said:

"There is a reason why older people with loads of life experience often "find religion" while mostly young, lacking life experience people are typically less committed to religion or consider themselves atheist or agnostic."

Why do you say that?

Zxanphorian · May 5, 2012

Hermskii said:
"There is a reason why older people with loads of life experience often "find religion" while mostly young, lacking life experience people are typically less committed to religion or consider themselves atheist or agnostic."

Why do you say that?

I'm not Brizz but I'll take a gander that they don't want their life to just end, and become worm, maggot, fungus, and plant food. They want to continue 'living.'

But to me, ultimately we become mothers and fathers of the next generation of life, as we are the sons and daughters of the stars.

Firefly · May 5, 2012

Jacks:SmirkingRevenge said:
but they DO hurt people and preach.
all the time.

the Pope considers condoms a greater blasphemy than the prevention HIV/AIDS.
how many people in Africa alone are going to suffer and die as a result of his ludicrous proclamations?

Believe me I feel your pain but be cold to a cold world.

Railing against the fascism of religion will just leave you frustrated. Turn your back and walk away.

By the way I work with a deeply faithful (and very out-there) Namibian girl. We get on fine even though she has stated she believes in the existence of demons (for real). But she's is such a friendly girl that it is never an issue (also she is hot, not that there's any bias there of course).

My point is that it is usually its the person and the way they express their beliefs that is offensive.

And speaking of annoying hate magnets. We have to tolerate your bilge on these forums Hermskii but at least you provide trolling practice.

ambershee · May 5, 2012

Jacks:SmirkingRevenge said:
the Pope considers condoms a greater blasphemy than the prevention HIV/AIDS.
how many people in Africa alone are going to suffer and die as a result of his ludicrous proclamations?

An entire race of people will likely be extinct within our lifetimes thanks to the combined efforts HIV and the Pope.

Interesting factoid - Bill Gates has visited Lesotho multiple times running campaigns aimed at increasing education regarding HIV and prevention (with dramatic effect). The Pope however hasn't visited since the mid eighties.

cryptophreak · May 5, 2012

Jacks:SmirkingRevenge said:
that was basically my question.

but it seems like no one wanted to read the post.

Everyone's got their flamethrowers out and you didn't offer any dry brush.

phil · May 6, 2012

hal said:
It's hard to believe you'd say something like that.

My perception of you, like many other atheists I've seen, is that you take religion at face value. Like science, what you see is what you get. Well, it doesn't always work that way, my friend.

You see religious people and you think "simpletons".

Maybe there's something about religion that you don't understand. Have you thought about that? Maybe this universe holds a surprise or two. I personally don't feel comfortable smugly dismissing things that are possibly greater than my own comprehension.

It is you who seem close-minded when you scorn others for their beliefs. I'll be the first in line to examine religious assertions with cautious skepticism, but I'm not going to run around gleefully kicking people in the 'nads because it makes me feel superior.

Get over yourself.

Is the thought of a unicorn a real thought?

You can't hide behind a higher understanding of the universe in defense of religion and then provide no proof. You know better than that hal. Don't make me kick your testicles so hard they pop out of your mouth. You're walking right into "a god of the gaps" and I will make you cry and call me a troll if you keep going.

Why is nobody talking about Romney's Mormonism anymore?

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