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Old 6th May 2012, 10:17 AM   #81
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Get it right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacks:SmirkingRevenge View Post
but they DO hurt people and preach.
all the time.

the Pope considers condoms a greater blasphemy than the prevention HIV/AIDS.
how many people in Africa alone are going to suffer and die as a result of his ludicrous proclamations?
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Originally Posted by ambershee View Post
An entire race of people will likely be extinct within our lifetimes thanks to the combined efforts HIV and the Pope.

Interesting factoid - Bill Gates has visited Lesotho multiple times running campaigns aimed at increasing education regarding HIV and prevention (with dramatic effect). The Pope however hasn't visited since the mid eighties.

Attacking the Pope now. Wow! OK. Let's see here. Following this line of thinking it seems that JSR and ambershee both think that everyone in Africa are Catholic. This is certainly false. They also think apparently that Catholics think it is OK to have sex as long as it is protected. Totally false again. One of them thinks Bill Gates has done more for Africa than the Pope and the teachings of Catholicism. Wrong again. Not even close in fact!

Neither the Pope nor Catholics and several other Christian religions think that people should have sex before they are married. Once married Catholics think you should only have sex with your spouse. If all of Africa where Catholic and good ones at that, HIV/AIDS would barely exist in Africa if at all. Catholics have taught abstinence which is the best HIV prevention before HIV even existed. I'll say it again. The Pope and Catholics aren't making the Africans have sex. In fact, the Pope and Catholics are against all sex that isn't between and man and his wife. If this belief were followed AIDS would not even exist at this point.

I took the bait and bit and am shocked that JSR had anything to do with this trolling example and was also so delusional and misinformed. Anbershee is well...I don't know what to say about that one.

I'll be gone most of the day at a church function where I will be helping charity groups. I look forward to reading your responses when I get home. You should at least show your evidence that the Pope and Catholics are "forcing" people have protected and unprotected sex with everyone but their spouse. You can't. the Pope and Catholics are against all out of marriage sex. let me specify for you that are still confused that I also strictly mean that as between a man and his wife!

Last edited by Hermskii; 6th May 2012 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 6th May 2012, 10:56 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hermskii View Post
Attacking the Pope now. Wow! OK. Let's see here. Following this line of thinking it seems that JSR and ambershee both think that everyone in Africa are Catholic. This is certainly false. They also think apparently that Catholics think it is OK to have sex as long as it is protected. Totally false again. One of them thinks Bill Gates has done more for Africa than the Pope and the teachings of Catholicism. Wrong again. Not even close in fact!

Neither the Pope nor Catholics and several other Christian religions think that people should have sex before they are married. Once married Catholics think you should only have sex with your spouse. If all of Africa where Catholic and good ones at that, HIV/AIDS would barely exist in Africa if at all. Catholics have taught abstinence which is the best HIV prevention before HIV even existed. I'll say it again. The Pope and Catholics aren't making the Africans have sex. In fact, the Pope and Catholics are against all sex that isn't between and man and his wife. If this belief were followed AIDS would not even exist at this point.

I took the bait and bit and am shocked that JSR had anything to do with this trolling example and was also so delusional and misinformed. Anbershee is well...I don't know what to say about that one.

I'll be gone most of the day at a church function where I will be helping charity groups. I look forward to reading your responses when I get home. You should at least show your evidence that the Pope and Catholics are "forcing" people have protected and unprotected sex with everyone but their spouse. You can't. the Pope and Catholics are against all out of marriage sex. let me specify for you that are still confused that I also strictly mean that as between a man and his wife!
Of course the Catholic church isn't the only factor in the epidemic in Africa but, abstinence only education has been shown time and time again to not work in the third or first world through scientific study. Honestly I would just call you a fool roll my eyes and hope you end up with a pregnant teenage daughter one day, if it where not for the fact that the catholic church has actively attacked and attempted to discredit the use of condoms in third world countries where they often have a large hand in politics/education. This goes beyond simple unrealistic belief system bull**** and into putting people in danger.

let me google that for you in case you didn't feel like looking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_AIDS

Quote:
]In 2003, contrary to empirical evidence, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family - "senior spokesman" Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo - claimed that condoms are permeable to the aids virus. He explained to BBC interviewers that "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."
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Old 6th May 2012, 02:16 PM   #83
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Perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole just a little. Everyone is always complaining about all the partisan antagonism, but then we go into threads like this and everyone is competing to see who can make the most liberally charged comment or accusation possible.

Abstinence only education doesn't work because you can't teach morals from a classroom. However, it's ridiculous to say that the pope is responsible for those deaths. Ultimately the responsibility lies with those that made the choice to spread the disease. At the same time the Catholic church is literally trying to make moral decisions for people by withholding information. Sex education should be taught from a biology textbook, not a church or planned parenthood pamphlet.
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Old 6th May 2012, 04:56 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by TWD View Post
Sex education should be taught from a biology textbook, not a church or planned parenthood pamphlet.
What just happened here? Dragon appears to be making sense.

I'm going to rest my head for a bit.

I'd add that abstinence-only education doesn't and can't work because humans have sex.

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Old 6th May 2012, 05:15 PM   #85
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Hermskii, Lesotho is 90% Christian and Catholicism is well in the majority. 50% of women under the age of 40 are HIV positive. Given that the life expectancy is around the age of 40, I don't think it's unrealistic to suggest that 50% of all people in Lesotho are HIV positive.

Monogomy or not, that population is not going to recover without decent sex education and a serious medical program. With those odds, the number of children not born to HIV positive parents is going to be in decline, and the cycle will continue exponentially.

This is of course assuming a perfectly monogomous single partner society for all of it's millions of inhabitants, and that sexual intercourse with a willing partner is the only way to become infected, which isn't realistic at all.

The papal stance on sex education is very negative, and it does have a direct effect on the church in Lesotho, which in turn has a direct effect on the education of the population. It's through counter-education that the situation has been improving. The only visible decline in the growth rate of infected person in Lesotho came directly after the introduction of the Clinton Foundation campaigns, championed largely by Gates and Clinton.

If you think the above is 'delusional and misinformed', I'm genuinely worried about you.
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Old 6th May 2012, 06:11 PM   #86
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I'd add that abstinence-only education doesn't and can't work because humans have sex.
Abstinence only education can work, but that doesn't mean it should be assumed it will always work. It's stupid to create laws preventing people from learning proper safety on this stuff, Utah's legislature just tried to do that and the populace basically forced the Governor to veto that crap. What kind of stupid....
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Old 6th May 2012, 07:32 PM   #87
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it's ridiculous to say that the pope is responsible for those deaths. Ultimately the responsibility lies with those that made the choice to spread the disease.
is it ridiculous?
of course the Pope is not directly responsible, but his rhetoric is dangerous and it certainly isn't making the situation any better.

when the Pope tells poor/illiterate people that condoms are blasphemy, then they're more likely to listen to him than to listen to an actual doctor.

Quote:
Sex education should be taught from a biology textbook, not a church or planned parenthood pamphlet.
yeah, no ****.
therein lies my beef with the Catholic church and their "right hand of God."

telling people not to use condoms sounds more like the work of the devil....
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Old 6th May 2012, 07:39 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacks:SmirkingRevenge View Post
they're more likely to listen to him than to listen to an actual doctor.
No doctors in Lesotho (about 1 doctor per 125,000 people) - but they are pretty literate thank to the country investing massively in education.
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Old 6th May 2012, 07:41 PM   #89
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that's why I said poor/illiterate.

people who live in relative squalor tend to be heavily influenced by religious leaders.
it can take many generations to break the habit of trusting dogma more than trusting experts.
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Old 6th May 2012, 08:31 PM   #90
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Can you guys just lock this thread already? The lot of you are never going to reach consensus and will eventually resort to ad-hominem attacks.
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Old 6th May 2012, 09:10 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Jacks:SmirkingRevenge View Post
telling people not to use condoms sounds more like the work of the devil....
Hehehe.
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Old 6th May 2012, 10:19 PM   #92
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Can you guys just lock this thread already? The lot of you are never going to reach consensus and will eventually resort to ad-hominem attacks.
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Old 6th May 2012, 10:38 PM   #93
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Hehehe.
am I wrong?
does it not sound like the work of the devil?

what do you find humorous?

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Originally Posted by Vaskadar View Post
The lot of you are never going to reach consensus and will eventually resort to ad-hominem attacks.
I was never looking for consensus.
I was asking questions.

so far no one has really answered them for me.
I don't have to resort to attacks if other people don't.

this discussion can be perfectly civil.
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Old 6th May 2012, 10:56 PM   #94
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I was asking questions.
Funnily enough this reminds me of Glenn Beck.

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Old 7th May 2012, 01:20 AM   #95
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am I wrong?
does it not sound like the work of the devil?

what do you find humorous?
I think you are 100% right. The wording just makes it sound funny. Reminds me of The Waterboy.
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Old 7th May 2012, 01:37 AM   #96
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oh.

usually no one says "hehe" anymore without some kind of sarcastic undertone.
I blame the internet.
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Old 7th May 2012, 03:50 AM   #97
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Attacking the Pope now. Wow!
pointing out the stupid things said by any person is not necessarily "attacking" them.

the Pope is not immune to question or judgement just because he's the Pope.
I don't buy the premise that he's anything special or that he has any authority. and even if I did, that still wouldn't make him immune to question.

Quote:
it seems that JSR and ambershee both think that everyone in Africa are Catholic. This is certainly false. They also think apparently that Catholics think it is OK to have sex as long as it is protected. Totally false again. One of them thinks Bill Gates has done more for Africa than the Pope and the teachings of Catholicism. Wrong again. Not even close in fact!
you would be wrong on all accounts.

I don't "think" any of those things.
everything you just told me, I already knew.

you're not being realistic.
people in Africa (or anywhere else) do not have to be Catholic in order to be negatively affected by the stupid things the Pope says.

let me rephrase my position like this...
my uncle George (bless his simple heart) is an extremely devout Christian. but I have deep respect for my uncle. way more than for most Christians.
why?
George and his group perform regular missions (several each year) to various parts of the world. but unlike the majority of Christian mission groups, they only go to dangerous parts of the world specifically to bring medical aid and health care professionals. sometimes they also bring engineers and construction workers to drill wells for fresh water or irrigation.

the places they go are usually illegal for American citizens to fly to.
they routinely have to get themselves smuggled into these hostile countries that are in the midst of civil war. they set up free clinics for a week or 2 at a time and treat literally as many people as possible for a host of issues. they bring general practitioners, eye doctors, dentists; you name it. and other times they might bring sustainable food/water systems that can be installed and operated by people with otherwise very little education.

they don't bring bibles and they don't build churches and they don't preach.
yeah that's right. they actually help people.

here's the G man when he brought eye doctors to SPLA soldiers under Commander Moses Hakim and his Lieutenants in Southern Sudan.



those men aren't holding scripture.
they're holding poetry books that they couldn't read before my uncle showed up with contact lenses and prescription glasses, along with crates of extras for when the first pair might break or get lost.

and here he is distributing food in Tegucigalpa, Honduras after a hurricane and ensuing flood.



he loves that little red scarf, but I swear he's not gay.
been married to the same woman for god knows how long.

here is his website @ CERT (Christian Emergency Relief International)
http://www.certinternational.org/profiles/george.htm

he's bad ass mother ****er and I respect the **** out of him.
I love that man and his personal beliefs don't bother me because he's not interested in gospel-driven interpretations about the world around him. he's simply driven by his faith to help others regardless of how many souls he converts or points he scores with Jesus.

now he offers prayer and religious counsel to those who go out of their way to seek it from him. he's not shy about encouraging people's hopes or soothing their feelings using Christian-based rhetoric. but this always comes after he made sure to deliver the physical aid (food, water, shelter) with the utmost care and respect. and they ask for nothing in return. no particular devotion, no money, no promises to repent on Sunday, nothing at all.

he sees the world as it is and he treats it as such.
he would never say or do something that could negatively affect another living person's well-being or health.

this brings us back to the Pope who openly condemns the use of condoms.
he's the presumed leader of an entire faith which - lasted time I checked - is pretty popular in virtually all corners of the globe.

how could the Pope take such an evil position?
in spite of his contextual interpretations regarding human conception and sex, he's actually preaching something that runs COMPLETELY against good medical science and personal health.

it doesn't matter that not everyone is Catholic.
it doesn't matter that not everyone follows the rules of the church to a T.

the point is that someone who is extremely influential (AKA extremely responsible) is putting out a horrible message to people who might otherwise take him literally. for every person in the civilized world that ignores such terrible advice, there are many people in small/poor/rural towns and villages all over the world who are going to be told by some dick missionary that God frowns upon the use of condoms.

there are people who are going to contract STD's and suffer or die who might have avoided such fate if the Pope had said "wear a condom every time." this is a simple fact.

but it's not even about condoms. that was merely one example of the larger issue.
all religious texts are ambiguous. and people can gleam whatever they want from the dense, lugubrious words of scripture; be it the Christian/Jewish Bible or the Muslim Qu'ran or the Hindu Vedas.

they're equally responsible for providing the canvas onto which bigoted, ignorant, and superficial fools can justify their horrific behavior.

see, the fact that you blow off Ambershe's comments about Bill Gates reveals how poor your perceptions of this issue (and reality) really are.
he is absolutely right to say that Bill Gates has done more good for Africa, and poor people around the world, than the Pope or Catholic church at large have ever done.

the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation does what my uncle George does on a massive scale with billions of dollars and ZERO religious influence of any kind. yes, there are religious charities and yes some of them also bring physical aid (as opposed to just emotional). but most of them are more interested in churches and converts than tangible assistance and most of them bring their dangerous and harmful dogma along for the ride.

my uncle, for instance, would never confuse basic medicine or science with the tenets of his faith.
and if that's what motivates him to do these good things, then that's great. I don't care where people get their motivation for life or spiritual comfort so long as they don't go around trying to impress their worldview on other people as thought it is some kind of divine right or truth.

Quote:
the Pope and Catholics are against all sex that isn't between a man and his wife. If this belief were followed AIDS would not even exist at this point.
you know what else wouldn't exist if everyone were good Catholics?
the human race.

Quote:
delusional and misinformed.
ironically this describes you better than it does myself or Ambershe.
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Old 7th May 2012, 05:50 AM   #98
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As an aside to that very valid point I just made in youtube form I would like to say that I cannot even begin to understand how anyone who has done the volume of research and debating as cryptophreak has claimed to would be asking the questions he has been in his previous few posts.
They're the basics, should've come up in the very earliest part of your research..
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