UT 2k3/2k4 RainbowSix mute would like some testers

[meowcat]

I hope you like it, and I look forward to any suggestions (I will try to get around to modifying the footstep sounds at some point).

In particular, since I'm trying to make the SP/COOP portion now in earnest, I would like to know if you (and everyone who downloaded this in general) think the weapon handling needs to change in any way (e.g. increase or decrease weapon damage, reload rates, recoil etc.). I'm also trying to differentiate the weapons a bit and give each a specific purpose (and hopefully create interesting scenarios to use them in game). For example, obviously the sniper rifle is good for long range, but I also was trying to figure out how to differentiate between the SMG and ARs (ARs obviously have more stopping power), but I'm also playing with how to make them worth while using later even when better weapons have been collected.

[Kyle Kellahshehskee]

Meowcat,

I think that the soundest solution in regards to differentiating assault rifles from SMGs is just to feature, even on a most basic level, their natural traits.

ARs would have much greater penetrating power than SMGs, particularly at a distance. Now, there are exceptions to this, such as the HK UMP .40 and .45. There's no doubt that these weapons would wreck hell at close range even through walls. But at a distance? Their lack of accuracy and range would certainly work against them when compared against an AR.

But their primary advantage is their small size and mass, allowing them to be aimed and redirected much more quickly than an AR, which is an enormous advantage when fighting up close. They also typically have a much higher rate of fire, allowing "spray and prays" to be much more effective than with an AR.

Of course, this may be a real headache in regards to coding. "Yes," I know that you already have material-penetration built into one of the muts, but to do this "true to life" may be a real hassle in SP.

Or maybe not. It's my understanding that INF's phenomenal system was as robust as it is because they identified every texture with certain gameplay properties, which were then computed against the thickness of the material that the texture was representing. Since you're going to be building a ton of maps from scratch by yourself, this may not be as huge a hassle as it might seem.

I can't say for sure, but I'm sure that you can!

But it would be tactically challenging to be on a map that would have multiple approaches allowed within it, to be able to look ahead via a scope or binoculars, see randomly placed AI guarding room interiors, and/or patrolling corridors near exterior walls, and then take them out with one's best AR for the job. Survivors may try to determine one's location, fix and flank it, or...move deeper into the structure and then wait for you to try and clear it. Of course the AI doesn't really have to "move deeper" into the structure, this is something that could be simulated by randomly and smartly placing AI in the structure's interiors, which is an event that the Player couldn't see anyway. But the point is, you'd present situations where the ARs would definitely be a much smarter choice at using than SMGs, and vice versa.

In regards to getting the AI to "fix" a target and then try to suppress it with rounds: if this can be done, by all means do so. It's a pretty terrifying thing to experience in a game, especially if round penetrations are permitted, as it forces the Player to move, which is something that usually doesn't make a gamer happy. Forcing them to make uncertain moves as smartly as possible would certainly ramp up the tension and interest level. This would be greatly heightened if grenade launchers were present along with deep penetrating grenade rounds. Scoping out a location would be even more vital than normal if UBGLs were present, as those so armed would have to be a primary target.

Just my two cents. Now, back to studying Microeconomics.

[Corporal_Lib [BR]]

I would suggest a little more tweaking in recoil, as it could help to differ between SMGs and ARs (high recoils for ARs, so it forces you to use them accurately in semi auto, as I see them now with minimum recoil while in iron sight mode , while the SMGs could be harmfull in spray n pray tactics), and the the AR9 could have the laser beam ways on or toggleable through a secondary fire function Ohhh, the Mk4 heavy sniper rifle could have a hold breath feature, as the YARM and TD snipers are way easier to aim without the wobble and it became handicap compared to them... The parkour seemed nerfed down too much, I´ve liked the way it was in the latest release (not too easy, but I thought it is currently too limited =(
In regard to damage, it still seems too low, as I have to pop lotsa caps to down a SP tango... even the yarm bots doesn´t go down before 4 to 5 hits at least. Or else they´re too armored ;D

There wasn´t no new map on this release? I´m anxious to see at least a teaser of the SP portion in the next release ;D Cheers (Loved the new M4A1, now it only needs a IR laser ANPEQ2 module and a M203 to be a dream came true) lol

[meowcat]

Hi Coproral_Lib and Kyle:
1. The Mk4 Sniper Rifle does have a "hold breath" feature, just hold down AltFire to hold your breath while zoomed (the scope will recenter).

2. Did you try the parkour pawn? I don't remember nerfing it too much, but once I have a couple of better scaled maps available you will be able to test it out better.

3. I like the suggestion about the ARs vs. SMGs (both accuracy ad recoil mentioned). I'll give it a try to see how it works in game with the Mk5/Mk7 and Mk8 (as those will be the primary SP weapons). I do not want to include the "weapon size"/turn blocking that INF implemented, though it did give a good reason use shorter weapons in tight areas, so the recoil versus accuracy thing might be a pretty good tradeoff. As for the SAW, what I will probably do is make it pretty inaccurate while moving and firing "from the hip", and then increase the accuracy based on stance, aiming, slow speed, and of course the length of the fire burst (less accurate the longer you hold down the trigger).

4. I like the idea of having the bots suppress player's in positions. Now that I have the basic code set, I need to begin implementing their covering/simple squad/fire team tactics. I will probably be creating a couple of enemy types that use a grenade launcher of some sort.

On a side note, here are a few items that will be in the next release (I've already been working on them):
1. Animated third person model for the Mk9 pistol (slide goes back when you fire)
2. Finally turned off spawn protection for the SP enemies
3. When using the paintball splat mode, confetti explodes when a player is fragged
4. Tweaked weapon code so that bots will fire semi-auto weapons just as fast as humans (I may have to tone it down a bit as they are too good with the Mk9 ... )
5. Hopefully a nice staticmesh/texture package that can be used to assist in making urban maps!

[Inigo]

Originally Posted by Kyle Kellahshehskee

It's my understanding that INF's phenomenal system was as robust as it is because they identified every texture with certain gameplay properties, which were then computed against the thickness of the material that the texture was representing.

That is incorrect. INF's bullet penetration is based solely on caliber and wall thickness.

[Kyle Kellahshehskee]

That is incorrect. INF's bullet penetration is based solely on caliber and wall thickness.

Really? I'm surprised by that, for I could swear that I read about it somewhere, and I know for a certainty that when I played it online religiously for 1.5 years that it was a frequent topic of conversation. One case in particular was when I was playing the Aztec map. If you recall, in the central region of the map there are large wooden crates. During my early and painful tutelage of "all things INF" I had a few online players inform me to stop using them for cover. They were okay for concealment, but that was it as rounds would rip through them as if they were tissue paper since they were designated as being "empty." They went on to inform me that some crates were designated as having objects within them with different properties: engine blocks being shipped in one crate, while a different substance in another. They weren't being absolutely "literal" with me, but rather giving me a better understanding of why crates that look the same and have the same size will have very different properties on different maps, or even in different regions of the same map.

And I could swear that on the Baghdadmap that standing behind those Humvees gave a whole lot more cover than standing behind an automobile on a map like London Wentham, and the Humvees weren't that much larger than the auto to account for the extra level of penetration protection that it (seemingly) provided.

But I'm getting grayer, and my memory may be slipping some.

4. I like the idea of having the bots suppress player's in positions. Now that I have the basic code set, I need to begin implementing their covering/simple squad/fire team tactics. I will probably be creating a couple of enemy types that use a grenade launcher of some sort.

YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

If you can pull that off alone (even without round penetration) I'll forever be in awe of you. And if you can pull that off with round penetration, and AI companions who'll be able to suppress as well, I'll buy you a whole case of virtual beers.

Now, why is a "whole" case such a big deal? Because I didn't sneak one out beforehand!

Yeah, I'm generous that way! Thank me later!

[Corporal_Lib [BR]]

Hello meowcat! Any news on the SP maps "front"? Just loved the new M4A1 ;D

[meowcat]

Well, I'm still trying to kick around how to make the campaign. Its kind of daunting, so I keep procrastinating by working on other stuff like the SP specific weapons, parkour moves for the pawns, making more static mesh decorations (got a pretty complete recreated collection of the pipes, HVAC units, scaffolding and catwalk decoration sets from Mirror's Edge now). I've also been working on the SP enemy AI code a bit. I've got some new code for the AI to seek cover (and I intend to give them the ability to blindfire) so hopefully that can make them a bit more interesting.

As for the SP/Coop campaign I'm finding it hard to determine how I want the gameplay to be. Generally I intend to include:
1. some minor puzzle elements mainly relating to movement around the maps (so that the parkour moves are used). Also will include the whole "find the switch to unlock the door to allow progress to the next area" type routines (though trying to prevent coop gameplay from 'breaking' this could be tricky, e.g. one player hits the switch, the other player(s) wait near the door that opens and immediately run through to end the level).
2. Combat with the enemies.
3. Some vehicle movement sequences (either traveling to a destination or manning the gun turrets on a vehicle while enemies attack).
4. Some Boss fights.

Anyhow, I'm still trying to figure out what levels to make without having them be too derivative of existing COD/Half-life/Halo/Rainbow Six/Mirror's Edge levels. I can make all the decorations for the levels, but coming up with the layout is challenging for me to say the least...

[Kyle Kellahshehskee]

without having them be too derivative of existing COD/Half-life/Halo/Rainbow Six/Mirror's Edge levels

The good news on that is that most of the above mentioned titles are rail shooters. Avoid that and that should get you pretty far in regards to avoiding being a derivative.

My nephew tried out for the first time Ghost Recon at my house this past weekend. He immediately picked up the differences between it and the Call of Duty titles he's addicted to. I asked him what stood out the most, and he hit all of the major design differences, and said that he enjoyed being able to have a lot more freedom in deciding where to go and when, and found that the tension level rose as a result.

He liked it.

I knew that there was a reason why I loved him. "Now" I finally know! ;-D

[meowcat]

Do any of you have any feeling with regards to the normal key layout for aiming, melee and offhand grenades? I'm kicking around the idea of making the altfire a "hold to aim" type button (similar to INF/COD), and just keep the offhand weapon melee on a different button.

Also, here are a few pics of a small DM level I've been workign on (a conversion of the Shard Heliport map from Mirror's Edge):
<-> <->

<-> <->

<-> <->

[Kyle Kellahshehskee]

I love most of what I see so far. My only point of concern is with the distant buildings: all of their windows are lit identically, and thus act as a distraction. Perhaps these are placeholder textures? If not, I'd strongly consider mixing them up to have some variety, such as windows being randomly lit on or off, and then ensuring that not the same side of the building is always facing towards the main region that the player will be occupying.

The layout is pretty spectacular!

[Corporal_Lib [BR]]

How´s YARM latest release cookin´, Meow? I hadn´t played ME throughly to get that heliport scenario, but I´m certainly eager to slide, flip and roll on those catwalks ´n´pipes!

[meowcat]

The next release is coming along alright. I've been tweaking a few things (for network play), and trying to figure out how I want the SP Enemy AI to work/fight. Although I think the normal MonsterController AI is generally OK, I still want the human enemies to use cover more during firefights so that is what I've been working on recently.

I changed the button/controls a bit for this next release. Right Mouse Click is a hold-to-aim function now, with melee bindable to any other button (I currently have it bound to middle mouse button).

As for the Shard map above, I will be making more building sets to give it more variety (with certain window lights on and off etc.).

[TurdDrive]

Any updates for this Meow?

[meowcat]

I uploaded the latest version of the YARM map pack a while ago, it can be found here.

Aside from that, I've been messing around with the YARM vehicle pack some, and generally trying to optimize some of the YARM content:
1. combine some textures used on the player models into a single file to reduce the number of rendering passes required for each character
2. optimized a bunch of player animation code
3. tweaking weapon code

Also been working on another map or two (got my own version of BloodGulch for VCTF using a more desert/high plains theme).

I've fixed some weapon skins like the M249 SAW, and have been tweaking the SP weapon set to include some more "interesting weapons" as I've gotten completely bored of the normal line-of-sight bullet guns. The Bow & explosive arrow combo from Turok the Dinosaur Hunter is now in, the hunting knife has been tweaked for damage and range, the Mk4 Sniper Rifle has view wobble (holding the 'walk' key holds your breath for steady aim), and I still need to add a special grenade launcher w/ magazine, and the anti-aircraft missile launcher.

Not sure when I'll kick out the next release. The weather's getting a lot worse so I have less motivation to go hiking this time of year....

[Corporal_Lib [BR]]

Hey, Meow!!! Nice addition the H-60 Blackhawk! Ohhh, I kinda hoped that your YARM mappack had those Mirrors Edge themed maps you´ve shown us a while back, but I still patiently wait for a new release, I´m still a YARM diehard fan (its the only reason I still have UT2k4 installed, I praise it as the true heir of INF in the UT2k4 platform...)

Dawn, I gotta try out the explosive arrows (My bad, as I´ve skyppe the readme and the changelog) ;D Keep up the great work!

PS: Is it possible to integrate the Parkour movements to the COD4 pawns? I miss the movement abilities when playin´with the COD4 muttie.. =)