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Old 23rd Jul 2000, 12:13 PM   #1
Liquid Night
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Hit effects.

I was playing INF for Unreal last night and I noticed how much the bullets push you back when they strike you. Too much, in fact, it was a bit annoying. But it seems to be almost totally gone now. I think bullets should push people back more if they hit them (if this is realistic). AFAIK a shotgun blast at close range would knock a person over, and a couple of Hydrashoks from a DE would easily throw someone up against a wall. It would be very satisfying to see your shots having more of a physical effect on people too.

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Old 23rd Jul 2000, 03:21 PM   #2
DeadeyeDan[ToA]
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The hollywood magical accelleration bullets aren't realistic. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction- the person being shot will always feel equal or less force than the shooter does (unless the bullet mysteriously gained speed after leaving the muzzle). So if the bullet could knock the victim to the ground or slam him up against a wall, it would do the same to the shooter.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!
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Old 23rd Jul 2000, 07:23 PM   #3
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Hmmm...

I think you are forgeting to take into account that much of the force from the bullet propellent exploding is absorbed by the weapon(basic princible of machine guns and automatics). Also, a shotgun blast could easily knock a man down...though .50 DE rounds might overpenetrate instead of expending their force on the target...Gryphon, you are the resident ballistics expert, you help me out [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Old 23rd Jul 2000, 08:45 PM   #4
ShakKen
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Federal does not make a Hydrashok in that lame caliber. Being that Hydrashoks are combat rounds and the DE is NOT a combat handgun.

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Old 24th Jul 2000, 02:08 AM   #5
DEFkon
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besides i don't think that a .50 AE round actually needs a hydroshock.

I'm not much a balistics experpt, but i have seen news footage (the stuff that isn't broadcast) of a people being shot with various weapons, and i've read a number of articals of witnesses to gunshots. People do not go flying when hit as hollywood would have you believe.

One of the articals i read was from a person who confessed to shooting his wife at point blank in the back with a 12 gauge. He actually said something like " She droped like a sack of potatos.. just like that.. like she was a pupet and i'd just cut her strings..."

**Shudder**

OR the footage of a brazilan (maybe chinese i forget) police officer that shot a student runing from what i think was some kind of terrorist attack.. The officer was getting ready to breech the door with a shotgun, and all of a sudden the door flies open and the kid (18yr old maybe) runs right at the cop.. well **** hit the fan and for whatever reason the poor kid got shot in the chest (point blank). He stood looking puzzled for what must have seemed an eternity, grabed his chest and colapsed... (to what i assume was his death)

Rifle rounds esp high powered ones often suffer from excesive over penetration, and as a result HRT snipers are trained to aim at a specific spot on the head to insure a non reflex inducing instant kill, because the "stoping power" of such rounds are realtivly low esp if the wound isn't immediatly fatal.

How can you shoot women and children?! --A: Easy, you just don't lead'em so much. - Full Metal Jacket.
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Old 24th Jul 2000, 10:43 AM   #6
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Shock effect anyone ?

Duh ? .. Anyone been on deerhunting lately ? Done it for quite some years now, and one of the main reasons why deers and similiar fall to the ground (and most of the time stay there) is the shockeffect of the shot.

Now how should it affect Infiltration; Don't know, but maybe :

1. Have some kind of shockeffect, if you're hit with 50% or more of the health, you're pushed back

2. Create a system where a shot in the leg, cause you to fall, arm cause you to shot bad, body push you back, head kills you (or cause you to bleed to death within 90 seconds).

3. Ignore it, and focus on other major parts that needs improvement. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

(LOSER)-->Koch

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Old 24th Jul 2000, 01:03 PM   #7
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Me again

I'm not talking about Hollywood etc. , I'm merely referring to the large amount of kinetic energy a bullet can transfer to a human body.
I made a mistake about Hydrashok cartridges being available for .50 AE (I think it's a lame caliber too Shakken , I'm not a DE supporter). I just said Hydrashok where I should have said hollowpoint to make it clear that I'm not talking about overpenetration. I'm talking about rounds with high energy transfer.
Obviously a hit from a shotgun is not going to pick you up and fling you against a wall. But depending on the type of ammo used , it can knock you over , or stop you in your tracks.
As for recoil, I am quite aware that every action has an equal and opposite reaction , but:
1. in the case of the shooter the recoil is spread over a larger area (hands and possibly shoulder also as opposed to the surface area of the bullet)
2. The bullet weighs a fraction of the weight of the gun. Therefore the gun moves backwards at a fraction of the speed of the bullet.
3. Recoil will also be dissipated by upward kick of the weapon and the arms of the shooter.
4. In some weapons even more of the force may be absorbed by damping mechanisms , used to cycle the action , or countered by a muzzle brake.

I am of the opinion that bullets of a sufficient type, quantity, and power can stop you in your tracks, push you back if you are stationary, and even knock you over. I may be wrong, I don't know much about guns. I'm just figuring everything out in my head here. ALso , I'm talking in terms of physics , not films. I'm not quoting Hard Boiled here , or even Saving Private Ryan (which a lot of people seem to think is very accurate).

Help Gryphon!!!!

I respect nothing. I will take you and you will not hear or see me for my cloak is made of Darkness.
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Old 24th Jul 2000, 07:43 PM   #8
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I believe the term your looking for is "hydrostatic shock". For those unfamilar with the term, it describes what happens to your guts when your shot. Think of your internals as jello. You've got organs stuck in the jello at just all the right places, a complex pumping mechnisim moving all sorts of fluids around ect ect. When a bullet passes through a human body it creates a wake. Empty space "follows" the bullet as it pushes the flesh, and then miliseconds later all the surrounding guts "fall" back into place as best they can. The bullet itself usually does minimal damage unless it's course goes through a major organ or artery ect ect. It's the wake that does the real damage "shocking" the organs it passes by. Law enforcement and similar forces are taught the "double tap" meathod which works directly on these prinicpals.

Idealy you fire two shots. The first creates the wake, somewhat similar to a wave in a pool and just as it wave reaches the end of the body, and it reflects back toward the point of entry, the second shot hits causing a second wave that colides with the first one. End result. The organs, and all the internals just went through one hell of a ride, and chances are.. aren't working very well, if at all anymore, not to mention that because of the timing involved you just exerted nearly twice the stoping power as a single shot would have.

If the INF team wanted to model this the easiest way that i could think of would be to make each following shot do more damage than the original.. the first shot would do say 20% damage and the second if followed up on quickly would do 35% or so maybe 40 - 50% depending on the round...

How can you shoot women and children?! --A: Easy, you just don't lead'em so much. - Full Metal Jacket.
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Old 24th Jul 2000, 08:18 PM   #9
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here is a little bit of info I found. A M1 Garand Rifle (.30-'06) has a muzzel velocity of 2800fps (853m) and muzzel energy of 2903 (ft-lbs) After 500 yards the muzzel velocity is 1918fps and has a muzzel energy of 1362 (ft-lbs). I am not exactly sure how to read that, but I believe that that means the bullet has an impact of 1362 pounds per square foot. I am not sure how you tell how much force that actually puts on the body.

Ok, if I devide 12" by .3" (the bullets caliber) I get 40. If I devide 2903 and 1362 by 40 I get 72.6 and 34. I believe this means that at the point of impact, at point blank range, there is 72.6 pounds of pressure, and at 500 yards, it is 34 pounds of pressure... That isn't very much. Gryphon? If I had someone who weighed 73 lbs stand on a bullet resting on my chest...I wouldn't think it would do much.

Gryphon? what did I do wrong?

(A 1911 .45 would have 8.9 lbs of pressure if you do what I did)

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Old 24th Jul 2000, 08:50 PM   #10
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Defcon: You knowledge on weapons and ballistic effects is suprising [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

You hit right on the money about how people die from bullet wounds.

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Old 24th Jul 2000, 09:34 PM   #11
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YES!

"If the INF team wanted to model this the easiest way that i could think of would be to make each following shot do more damage than the original.. the first shot would do say 20% damage and the second if followed up on quickly would do 35% or so maybe 40 - 50% depending on the round..."

Seriously, this is one of the best ideas I've ever read here. INF team, please implement this.
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Old 25th Jul 2000, 04:46 AM   #12
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ooo looks like gryphon and shakken have competition... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Old 25th Jul 2000, 12:05 PM   #13
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.......not really

Defkon. I am aware of hydrostatic shock , wound channels etc. Implementing effects associated with these in Inf is a good idea and I would welcome it but the two of us are talking about completely different things. You are talking about the effects of kinetic energy projectiles inside the human body , I am talking about their effects on the human body's momentum, velocity, and acceleration.
I am talking pure physics. When a body travelling at high speed strikes another body it will have an effect on it. The intensity of it varies hugely , obviously. If a fly strikes you in flight it is barely perceptible , while if a piece of paper the size of a full stop were accelerated to the speed of light it would destroy a house (hypothetical of course , before anyone starts telling me about air resistance etc).
This is the effect I'm talking about. A bullet, while small, carries a lot of energy (this is the basis of their effectiveness). This has to have an effect on a person struck by one (or many) bullets. I believe you would be slowed down , possibly even stopped or knocked off your feet.
I also think this would add to the the game. If you shoot someone three times in the chest with the .40 MP5 using hollowpoint ammo and they's thrown backwards like a rag-doll instead of shooting back at you while they're actually taking hits , it would be very satisfying.
Gryphon , if this isn't realistic then obviously it shouldn't be considered, but I believe that what I've been saying is true to life , to some degree at least. Is it?

I respect nothing. I will take you and you will not hear or see me for my cloak is made of Darkness.

I respect nothing. I will take you and you will not hear or see me for my cloak is made of Darkness.
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Old 25th Jul 2000, 03:02 PM   #14
DeadeyeDan[ToA]
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1- Yes, it is spread over a larger area for the shooter. That is why the bullet goes through the guy, but the gun itself doesn't break skin. The same amount of force is still applied.

2- True, but the momentum is still the same. And the person getting shot weighs even more than the gun does. A 200 lb man walking at 5 mph (7.3 fps) has over 57 times as much momentum as a 165 grain (0.0235714 lbs) .40 S+W JHP travelling at 1070 feet per second. So unless you can hit him with 57 rounds at the exact same time at point-blank range, you're not gonna stop him in his tracks.

3- The gun goes up because of the way it forces itself into the shooter's body.

4- AFAIK all of those lead to less energy pushing the bullet, too. A 7.62x51mm semi-auto rifle will indeed recoil less than a 7.62x51mm bolt action rifle (assuming all other stats are the same, like barrel length), but the bolt action will have a higher muzzle velocity- it doesn't take any of the burning (and pushing) gasses off to cycle the action. If you then added another foot onto the barrel of the bolt action, less gas would escape out into the air (and be wasted in making muzzle flash and heard bullet report), and more of it would burn inside the barrel, behind the bullet (more recoil, higher muzzle velocity).

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[This message was edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] on Jul 25, 2000 at 15:07.]
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Old 30th Jul 2000, 05:12 AM   #15
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I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge shown here. My presence is hardly required it seems! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

In a nutshell, those stating that bullets will not stop a person in their tracks or throw them against a wall, are correct. Maybe if you threw enough lead at them that COULD happen, although quite frankly the amount of firepower required to do that would shred their body into pulp. Remember what I posted many moons ago on bullet fragmentation and tumbling...

The effects of hydrostatic shock are well explained also. The tissue that expands violently and then retracts causes the temporary cavity, and the actual bullet channel that destroys tissue and leaves a permanent cavity is known as, well, the permanent cavity.

Many bullets that do not form a large temporary cavity and contribute to stretch tissue wounding, do damage solely on the crush tissue principle. Examples are .22 LR, .38 Special, .45 ACP FMJ, etc. The higher the velocity and the larger the end-on cross-section of the bullet within the tissue, the larger the temporary cavity. Thus if a 7.62mm bullet begins to yaw while travelling at 2000 fps, it's going to create a massive temporary cavity, but a .22 LR at the same speed (assuming you could ever get it that fast) would form a much smaller cavity.

It is interesting to note that the .22 LR will exit tissue travelling base-first, as its center of gravity shifts while travelling through tissue. There are actually quite a few bullets that do this; .38 Special, 9mm NATO, 5.45x39.5mm M74, etc. Here is an example of .38 Special doing just this:



Class dismissed! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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Old 30th Jul 2000, 06:57 AM   #16
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Cheers Gryphon , Thanks a million.

I respect nothing. I will take you and you will not hear or see me for my cloak is made of Darkness.
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Old 30th Jul 2000, 05:45 PM   #17
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Is it just me, or has this topic gotten kinda gruesome? Ughhh...
<h2><font face="symbol">
a 1001</font></h2>

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Old 30th Jul 2000, 10:26 PM   #18
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Gruesome? Nah, gruesome is getting hit with #4 buckshot:



Or 7.62x51mm soft point:



Ouch! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

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Old 30th Jul 2000, 11:05 PM   #19
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This may be a bit off the topic guys but how about that sometimes, if a guy is killed by being shot in the head, he will fire off some rounds as he falls to the ground. I mean, there IS a risk of that happening in real life. The odds of that in Inf should be fairly low but it would be something that you have to keep in mind. I think that the case of someone firing "from the dead" would only happen if the bullet was from a SMG ie: SAS (or any other speical forces unit) going in a Hostage case and firing at the bad guy's heads. That would be cool in Inf where you would have to take that into account.

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Old 31st Jul 2000, 12:22 AM   #20
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LMFAO! The wadding inside of the guy (yea I know it's just ballistic jelly, simulated man anyway)... too funny. At first I was kinda surprised by the appearance of #4 shot in INF- I've seen #4 (steel) shot BOUNCE off a duck. Nope, no ****. The duck was flying low and slow, and Tony was up on an embankment shooting downward- you could see the few pellets that missed hit the water in a little circle around him, and the ones that hit him bounce off his back and into the air (they had slowed down alot after impact). From maybe 15 yards away, a pretty much perfect shot didn't even phase that damned duck. I bet your thinking some super-mallard with a 4 foot wingspan, right? Nope, just some little wimpy dumbass teal. It being a dumbass teal, it only took some hiding in the bushes, patience, and careful duck calling to get the silly bastard to land back down on the same tank after circling a few times. We jumped him again and got him anyway, but most of us now exclusively take #2 shot or bigger for duck.

BUT, this was steel shot after all, the ammo page says lead (which is, IIRC, illegal to use on migrating birds... methinks us hunters need to look into tungsten or something)... so I'm contented. I'm sure that lead would be *much* different, steel is so much ligher I can understand it perfoming pathetically in those smaller sizes. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[This message was edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] on Jul 31, 2000 at 00:28.]
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