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Old 10th Sep 2004, 12:00 PM   #1
Logan6
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Inf needs better ballistics

I was toying around on the INF shooting range the other day, and I noticed that all of the weapons in INF shoot waaaayyyyy to flat. I thought it might be bulletsounds4, because I was able to hit one of the 500 meter targets with the Mk23 multiple times. I took off bulletsounds4 and it got slightly more realistic, as this time I only hit the 500 meter target once. This was pointing the pistol directly at the targets center at 500 meter. IRL my shots should never have reached even near that target. Probably bit the dust before they even got halfway there. So I looked around on the internet and found this program from Remington that calculates many different values such as bullet path, drop, velocity, and energy. Its amazing how NOT flat shooting rifles are. I don't know if this program can do pistols yet, haven't got that far. But it appears that the rifles in the game also shoot waayyyyy too flat. To hit one of the red men on the 500 meter range, I should have to aim about five feet above the target according to the graphs on the chart. I've always thought the weapons in this game shoot way too flat, and now I'm sure of it.

Could someone make a mutator to correct this? It would be really nice to make the ballistics in this game real. And on a secondary note, I think that some of the bullet speeds should be looked at also. I'd write a mutator if I could, but I have no idea of how to do it.

Here's the link for the program. Just hit the download link on the page.

Remington Shoot!
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 12:09 PM   #2
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You do realise that the rifles are zeroed at (IIRC) 300m? And that the shooting range markers are too short, and as such can't be relied upon?
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 12:14 PM   #3
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Yeah, but things still seem to shoot way too flat. Like why was my pistol, held level, able to hit a target near the center at 500 meters? With BS4 taken off, it went a little lower, maybe a foot. Been getting capped by pistols at long range in the game of late and am beginning to wonder. I was shooting with the PSG-1 on the range, level, at 500 meters, and hitting the targets at near center. I recalculated for the 300 meter zero, and now at 500 yards on the graph the bullet will drop 44.25 inches in trajectory. So almost a 4 foot drop in trajectory.
As close as I can get to the .45 on this program is the .44 magnum and it would have dropped over 200 inches at 500 meters. So there is no way I could ever have gotten even near the target with the .45 level.

This program can calculate a lot of other variables too, such as velocity, time to target, energy, and wind deflection.

Some people bitch about snipers on the maps. Well, making the balistics real will make sniping more realistic and harder. Especially for those dam pistol snipers!
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Last edited by Logan6; 10th Sep 2004 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 01:38 PM   #4
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We need a shooting range with real ranges... And yeah, inf does need better ballistics.
The problem with the remington software is that it doesn't have the barrels and bullet types that we need.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 01:46 PM   #5
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Well, I think it gets pretty close to the bullet types, its just that the barrel lengths are set to 24 inches. Now if someone had the full version of this program *hint*hint*, maybe we could calculate for different barrel lengths.

Considering the shorter barrel lengths of the assault rifles, I think the bullet drop would be even more extreme. Also, the action of the suppressors on the bullets velocity should be considered.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 01:49 PM   #6
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You also can't change the barrel's twist rate.
As for ammo, a difference as small as 2 grains in bullet weight makes considerable difference in ballistics, not to mention a change in the bullet's shape/material.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 09:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
Like why was my pistol, held level, able to hit a target near the center at 500 meters?
Were you aiming above the center? I just tested it, i wasn't able to hit the center of the target at 500m with the PSG-1 unless i aimed about a target's height high. And with the pistol, i got 0 hits. Are you sure you aren't seeing previous target hits, or are you switching targets after each test?
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 10:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelan
Were you aiming above the center? I just tested it, i wasn't able to hit the center of the target at 500m with the PSG-1 unless i aimed about a target's height high. And with the pistol, i got 0 hits. Are you sure you aren't seeing previous target hits, or are you switching targets after each test?
OK, no I was aiming for the center of the target with the PSG-1. On the new map I built, the same thing happened. The pistol was hitting the target when I had BS4 on, when I took it off, the pistol hit very near and got one shot on to the target. That was knocking a full clip off at it, slowly to keep steady aim. I was switching targets after I was through so no they weren't previous hits.

Hmm, maybe it is my system. Im using windows 98, I'll try this out on windows XP.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 01:49 PM   #9
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.45 auto is alot different from .44 magnum, I'm sure. o_O
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 01:50 PM   #10
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Lol, yeah but it was as close as I could get. Im betting the .45 has a lot more drop than that.

@Gal-z : Well, we only use one type of bullet in this game for each different caliber. Surely we could all agree on the drop, trajectory, velocity, energy, etc. for one bullet type per caliber. Like for the .308 in the chart I put in for the match .308 hollow point. Yeah, we probably use steel jacketed military ball in the game, but the path would still be pretty close to it. They had a couple of other bullets in the list to calculate but I wasn't sure exactly what type they were.
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Last edited by Logan6; 10th Sep 2004 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 04:20 PM   #11
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Did you not understand Crowze when he said "And that the shooting range markers are too short, and as such can't be relied upon?"

Here, I'll quote it again for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowze
And that the shooting range markers are too short, and as such can't be relied upon?
You either just dismissed a fact with a "yeah, but..." or lacked the reading comprehension to grasp what he said. Since you went on using those 500m markers as Truth I'm leaning towards the latter. Then you go on using yards, meters, inches, and other measurements, all mixed up, saying you recalculated. Post your calculations. What conversion factors did you use? What formulas?

Then you used a .44 magnum as a reference for .45, which at least you admitted, but it's still fairly asinine, don't you think? They're quite different rounds, which I'm sure you know, or will at least say you know, claiming you own a dozen guns that fire each caliber. Then there's this: "Surely we could all agree on the drop, trajectory, velocity, energy, etc. for one bullet type per caliber". Per caliber? No. Per weapon, yes.

So, in summary, according to a program you found on the internet you calculated the bullet drop for a gun that's in the game based on a different barrel length, different caliber, using dubious distances and measurements on a shooting range that has markers that are mis-marked and came up with some answer you now claim as Gospel to prove the ballistics in-game are off? Way to go Einstein.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 04:47 PM   #12
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Have you tried sniping with the 100m and 200m targets? You should have fun for a while as you wonder why your shots are going upwards of where you aimed them.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 06:02 PM   #13
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Lol, I dont even bother reading the posts of ****ing morons like you Salad.

@Derelan, actually the shots do not go high. I zeroed in with the .50 on the 100 meter target. I hit dead center aiming at the center with 5 shots. Yeah, they should have been a few inches high with that particular rifle. At 500 meters, they go lower but not near as low as they should be hitting at 500 meters. Now some people say the range is off, so what would be nice if one of the mappers could make a simple box range with one target of known measurement and the range mapped out to exact measurements. Then we could see exactly where the bullets are hitting and if the ballistics are correct or not.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 06:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
Lol, I dont even bother reading the posts of ****ing morons like you Salad.
Then why do you post here at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
@Derelan, actually the shots do not go high. I zeroed in with the .50 on the 100 meter target. I hit dead center aiming at the center with 5 shots. Yeah, they should have been a few inches high with that particular rifle. At 500 meters, they go lower but not near as low as they should be hitting at 500 meters. Now some people say the range is off, so what would be nice if one of the mappers could make a simple box range with one target of known measurement and the range mapped out to exact measurements. Then we could see exactly where the bullets are hitting and if the ballistics are correct or not.
First of all, did you accurately enter in the barrel twist, bullet weight, barrel length, caliber, and gunpowder used? If not, then your source is quite innacurate.

Secondly, i believe when you hit the target dead-on at 500m, the target explodes.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 06:36 PM   #15
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Lol, Derelan, its obvious enough that your Salad, isn't it strange how you two show up together. And no, the targets don't explode. Also i'm just trying to get pretty near what the real ballistics would be like. Twist and powder used can affect the bullet only so much. The Shoot program gives an average trajectory for the average rifle and its caliber bullet. And I wouldn't mock a program that was made by a cartridge manufacturer. I think they would know what they are talking about.

So to get back to all seriousnes, is anybody else getting these results at 100 meters with the .50? Maybe somethings gone wrong with my copy, but I don't think so. Who knows. I seem to get strange results with PSG-1 also. Ballistics look way off. The results with the PSG-1 seem FAR different than that with the rifle in game. The .308 in game shoots much flatter trajectories than that shown in the shoot program.

Also, does anyone know of any other ballistics programs that are free to download other than Remingtons shoot?

edit: I was going to post a picture of the target I shot but my ftp site is down. But it was just a target with the center shot out.
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Last edited by Logan6; 10th Sep 2004 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 07:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
Lol, Derelan, its obvious enough that your Salad, isn't it strange how you two show up together.
Isn't it strange how we have different tastes, i play online, we have different IPs, and different emails? If i was really that desperate to push you around, i would think of something better than registering another account and making fun of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
So to get back to all seriousnes, is anybody else getting these results at 100 meters with the .50?
Have you really left anyone on these forums alone enough to be willing to help you? Or do you just push aside all information that disagrees with what yours shows and simply acknowledge the info that coincides with what you say?
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 07:14 PM   #17
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That's because you're a sanctimonious, self-righteous person who specializes in specious reasoning. It seems you don't bother to read anyone's posts, not just mine. If you did, you'd understand that the target distances on the range are off. Let me repeat that for you. THE DISTANCES FOR THE TARGETS IN THE TARGET RANGE MAP ARE WRONG. Now, climb down off of your high horse, quit ignoring facts, arguments, and everyone who disagrees with you (i.e. 99% of the population) and be a man. Debate instead of dismiss, if you're able to, that is. As it is, most people see you as someone who posts just to hear themselves talk and not much better than a common troll with brown eyes. Blue, if you're a quart low that day. I just see you as an idiot who spews whatever thoughts cross your mind with little regard for fact or reality. That's why I call you on it. Oh, and no, I'm not Derelan. I have no alter-ego, so put away the tin-foil hat. I'm just me. Your worse nightmare. Now, go read up on "you're" vs. "your" a bit and cry yourself to sleep again.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 07:14 PM   #18
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There's modification to ballistic scale in bulletsounds4 (or in RealTargets for that matter). It's set in the ini file with percentScale. Default is 60%.

If you want to test ballistics of the original Infiltration, no mutator affecting it should be running. That a pretty obvious rule, otherwise all your tests are invalid.

Quote:
Lol, Derelan, its obvious enough that your Salad
ok just stfu please, if you're going to continue with stupid comments like that

Quote:
I zeroed in with the .50 on the 100 meter target. I hit dead center aiming at the center with 5 shots. Yeah, they should have been a few inches high with that particular rifle
I'd say the error at 100 m for at rifle zeroed at 200 would be about less than an Inch. For a rifle zeroed at 500 m perhaps a little more than an inch.

Now how the fuck do you mesure stuff with a precision under one inch in infiltration? Please explain that to me. I would like to know the resolution if your measurement, the precision and the error associated to your measurements.

If you want to go into precision, we can do that, but it's going to be on both sides... not only when you feel like it.

Since i work in a field related metrology, doing measurement of lenghts with a few nanometer precision, I'm sure we can talk for hours together on what a pain doing precise things is...

Maybe you should take out a dictionnary and check out all the words related to "approximation", "simulation" and "modelling".
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 08:04 PM   #19
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No flames here. I just want to know why you don't acknowledge, well, anything said by anyone else that contradicts anything you say. Why haven't you said anything about the shooting range distances being off after a few people said they were? Why haven't you given any of your calculations or methods? You'd think you'd want to in order to have others replicate your results as would happen in any good science. Why haven't you discussed how you measure things as geogob requested? I'm not flaming, I just want to know the answers to these simple questions, but more than that I want to know why you never answer the question of why you never answer them.
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Old 10th Sep 2004, 08:14 PM   #20
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Well, look, like I said in an earlier post, the Shoot program is just giving an average result for the info put in. I don't think it is concentrating on any one rifle, mostly just the cartridge. Hollow point will probably be somewhat different than metal jacket. Sure. But, altogether, the results of most bullets from standard rifles of that caliber will probably be about near the same trajectory. What I am saying is that in the game, the ballistics seem to shoot MUCH flatter.

Now its hard to tell up close, cause like one of you said when the bullet is actually positive in its trajectory its only so by a few inches. Its at 500 meters that things look wrong. The bullet seems to barely drop.

I think the way to tell how things are going is if someone would make a simple hallway map that is accurately measured with a measured target. Then we can pool information on what each of us is getting.

I'd do it but Im a horrible mapper.
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