Steve Polge about UT3 Expansion Pack

GreatEmerald · Nov 29, 2008

Poker said:
Indeed, a year and a day out makes the decade exactly in fact. You've got to think they have that circled on the calendar, and not just for champagne popping. It just makes too much sense.

What about 1998-2008? Unreal 1? No U3 yet, so I don't think that's the case.

Leo(T.C.K.) said:
Sorry, but no....first you don't even have full UT3 as you said, and about U2, it was officially, yes officially said that the multiplayer was scrapped because of decisions they made with Atari, Epic, Atari, Legend and DE sat down together and came down to that decision, to not cause and Atari had more powerful veta word as they owned Legend(Atari didn't own Epic or DE)..

That means even if they got more time for U2, it was not supposed to have multiplayer and the later phases of developement, since like summer 2002...
So really it proves these changes were made later and it was officially stated during 2002 that they are removing these things and even changing a lot concept of the game, so nobody should have been surprised that U2 = no MP.

You didn't mention Epic. They also voted to take MP out of the game because of their UT2003. But that's not the point. What I meant was that later on they still made U2XMP - but on another branch of the engine! That does mean that they didn't complete it. Plus, what about all the Shian, N, Strider levels? And about Na Koja Abad cutscenes? They didn't have time!

UnrealGrrl said:
whatever happens with this update and expansion... as long as they really wait "till its done" this time we can hope for the best. cant imagine what they are going to do, but I'm hopigng that it can do even 1/2 what 2k4 did for ut2003 in fixing and polishing what is an unfinished game (for PC). thx Epic - looking forward to it!

Agreed! And that's what I'm saying, they must take their time!

WHIPperSNAPper · Nov 29, 2008

FuLLBLeeD said:
UT3 is a great game underneath all of it's issues. It just needs some time back in the oven and some better maps and content. That's what I'm hoping for with this expansion. You hear that Epic? I haven't given up on you yet!

Unfortunately, they could release a patch that would make fix all of the issues people have complained about but it probably wouldn't do much to improve the online player counts unless the game ends up back on store shelves as UT4.

rAt.8^].bAg · Nov 29, 2008

WHIPperSNAPper said:
Unfortunately, they could release a patch that would make fix all of the issues people have complained about but it probably wouldn't do much to improve the online player counts unless the game ends up back on store shelves as UT4.

That's the major prob with UT3 IMO - not enough warm bodies online from the "bad rep" it's gotten so far. Almost no way to counter that now short of a new name/new release.

JEnepas · Nov 29, 2008

UnrealGrrl said:
i loved 2k4 too and logged a bazillion hours on it... but unlike players who came to the game during that time, i still feel that UT and UT3 are really more "unreal".

It's easy to overstate UT99's success, it was a product that met the latest fad requirements of the time ,albeit a great game, nevertheless it was swept up in a craze. Consoles weren't what they are today and online fps were a new novelty as the PC and internet really took off, for proof, look at the dot com share price boom at the same time. UT3 was never going to recreate those heady days.

I just hope whatever they do they remember that online is not the same as a lan, group play test session at Epic, hitscan weapon nerfs that play out well there, are magnified double online with ping delay, eg. weird aim of the UT3 Shock thru such delay.

Severin · Nov 29, 2008

JEnepas said:
I will answer ...you obviously haven't played much DM against the best players who go 50-4 K-D against other, very good players. I loved Ut2004 but tbf UT3 is faster , it requires a different mindset and it demands 100% concentration (unlike floaty 2k4) if anything,it could be too intense for most people , that's why they stick to other shooters and put down UT3. I agree, it can get way too crazy on certain small confined DM maps when a server is full. However , to characterize it as needing no skill is mad, just spectate some of the best UT3 DM'ers.

It is bug riddled though, that much is true

I don't play it at all anymore and the run around with your finger on the trigger comment was because this seemed to be the tactic of choice for the vast majority of players i came across when I did play. Games tended to devolve into a rocket spam fest almost from the start. There were exceptions to this but very few.

The reason this was so popular is that it worked hence the skill free comment.

Again I did not have a problem with the pace of the game in fact I was reasonably good at it. (usually ranked inside the top 200 for what that is worth) I just found the game dull and not fun, the more I played the less fun it got and the more dull I found it. Thats not to say it didn't produce adrenalin filled moments but it always felt lacking in depth and too random to me. Which to come full circle is why I took exception to the nerfing comment to begin with.

Ps.

I come at this topic from and ONS/Warfare perspective rather than DM so my comments should be taken with that in mind.

@ hal

You forgot to change the bit that was actually wrong so I fixed your fix and my typo

Originally Posted by Severin View Post
Lol, How can you say UT was nerfed when UT 2x is a skill-free, feature poor, bug riddled bouncefest and nothing more. I can live with either system of movement/weapon balance but UT 2x was the game that was 'nerfed-to-hell' not UT. Who needs to move or aim well when all you have to do is hop around with your finger held down on the SR fire button.

I've edited your post to reflect the popular arguments between UT and UT2x players when the latter first hit the scene.

T2A` · Nov 29, 2008

Is it worth noting that because the scales are exactly the same the overall movement speed in UT200x is actually higher than in UT3? The only difference is in how the maps are designed; the tightness makes UT3 feel faster when it's actually slower. It's kinda obvious when you get onto an open ONS/VCTF map. D:

UT3 really needs its own scale a la UT to feel right. It always felt like a UT2004 mod to me instead of an actual new game. You can get UT3's movement into UT2004 with a very simple mutator, after all. I started one soon after the game was released but couldn't be arsed to finish it. Within 10 minutes of work I had bigger player models, no double jumping but a higher single jump, a nerfed dodge, and a quicker run speed (to complete the effect since UT2004 maps are bigger).

MonsOlympus · Nov 29, 2008

Well one of the things I would like to see happen is round based play integrated into all gametypes. It just means more time can be spent on maps if the server wants to set best of 3 or 5.

FuLLBLeeD · Nov 29, 2008

WHIPperSNAPper said:
Unfortunately, they could release a patch that would make fix all of the issues people have complained about but it probably wouldn't do much to improve the online player counts unless the game ends up back on store shelves as UT4.

It's like UT2k3 all over again.

Yes I am fully expecting to be a full retail release ala UT2k3-2k4.

GreatEmerald · Nov 29, 2008

JEnepas said:
I just hope whatever they do they remember that online is not the same as a lan, group play test session at Epic, hitscan weapon nerfs that play out well there, are magnified double online with ping delay, eg. weird aim of the UT3 Shock thru such delay.

Why don't they play through the internet? I mean, they need to test internet play after all.

Severin said:
I don't play it at all anymore and the run around with your finger on the trigger comment was because this seemed to be the tactic of choice for the vast majority of players i came across when I did play. Games tended to devolve into a rocket spam fest almost from the start. There were exceptions to this but very few.

Thats not to say it didn't produce adrenalin filled moments

But you have to find the Rocket Launcher first? And for it to hit something, you need to hit the ground?

Adrenaline? Right! Totally forgot! They should reintroduce that in their expansion! It's a lot more fair once you make a good system, possibly even with a GUI to activate one combo or another. Like, Invulnerability combo, Teleport combo, Vampire combo and so on. Pickup-based combos are very unfair and not strategic enough!

T2A` said:
You can get UT3's movement into UT2004 with a very simple mutator, after all. I started one soon after the game was released but couldn't be arsed to finish it. Within 10 minutes of work I had bigger player models, no double jumping but a higher single jump, a nerfed dodge, and a quicker run speed (to complete the effect since UT2004 maps are bigger).

Cool! Could you send me what you've done?

MonsOlympus said:
Well one of the things I would like to see happen is round based play integrated into all gametypes. It just means more time can be spent on maps if the server wants to set best of 3 or 5.

Umm, Deathmatch in round mode? How do you imagine that? If you have like 10 people, you will need 40 rounds to make it even...

And lol, I just thought of that, what happened if they made UT turn-based?

FuLLBLeeD said:
It's like UT2k3 all over again. Yes I am fully expecting to be a full retail release ala UT2k3-2k4.

Yay, at last someone agrees. I told you that long ago...

MonsOlympus · Nov 29, 2008

GreatEmerald said:
Umm, Deathmatch in round mode? How do you imagine that? If you have like 10 people, you will need 40 rounds to make it even...

Jesus! Are you a designer? just make it first to x wins, doesnt matter how many in a row or what. Obviously there will be players stronger then others so with 10 people you wont be playing 20 rounds, more like 10 max (with a frapcap of 10, that wouldnt take too long). Honestly DM isnt that good with 10 people anyways, I prefer around 8 max.

The main point here is everyone doesnt need to write round based play if they want to use it on a custom gametype since it'll be in the core gameinfo. That doesnt mean servers "have" to use it for DM, they could use it for just TDM and CTF. CTF 3 caps, 3 rounds, 9 caps to win... stuff like that.

Atleast then round based play across all gametypes will have consistency!

cosmix · Nov 29, 2008

In UT2004 I always loved to play custom maps. The content made with the fantastic editor hyped the game a lot and was like an emblem of the whole UT series. The overall mapsize often was below 10-15 MB and fast to download. Now we have WAR maps with 40, 50, 60 and more MB. I saw a map on T5K server with 160 megs! If they will find a way to compress maps, especially textures the game can become much more varied because people will download stuff. I love UT3, no question but stock maps bore me a bit after I have played them a few 100 times.

sneh · Nov 29, 2008

cosmix said:
No, I don't think they will sell the expansion (and upgrade). And they really do good to share it for free.

Well who wouldn't want it to be free? I just won't be disappointed if it does cost full price, because I'm prepared for that

.. I hope they base it on Tournament/Arenas again rather than pick this way or that on a map like UT3.

The_Head · Nov 29, 2008

cosmix said:
Now we have WAR maps with 40, 50, 60 and more MB. I saw a map on T5K server with 160 megs!

Content sizes are increasing quickly, but remember the speed of the internet is to.

I remember taking hours to download the bonus packs for UT99 at 5kb/s..
I remember having to miss out on things like the CBP on UT2k3/4 when they came out as it would have took so long to download on 512kb/s....

As it stands now UT3 is working out the best for me, I've got 20mb, can download nearly anything I want in no time, problems is its the servers that aren't quick enough most of the time now.

Its not the games fault that other technology aren't keeping up with the ingame content size.

T2A` · Nov 29, 2008

GreatEmerald said:
Cool! Could you send me what you've done?

Meh. Part of the reason I stopped is because the collision got messed up and the enemies' feet ended up submerged in the floor. Everything I did was literally super-easy; you can do it quickly and effortlessly via ModifyPlayer().

Heh, I just checked the mutator code and found this line.

x.SetDrawscale(1.185); // @@ FEET GO THROUGH FLOOR! I BELIEVE THIS IS BECAUSE YOU NEED A NEW PAWN CLASS WITH THESE SET AS DEFAULTS!

I had a lot of ideas for this mutator, but after feeling too unmotivated to figure out the collision problem I stopped working on it. Changes beyond what I've said already (bigger models et al.) were to include no adrenaline or shield gun, 5% faster game speed, more gravity, weapons that did more damage and a lot more momentum transfer, less self-damage for more effective spamming, a new armor system (not what UT3 has but to fix UT2004's), and various weapon tweaks.

I was even hoping to build some quick maps around the new gameplay. My old map Crampage probably would have worked well, Rankin scaled to 75% might have been nice, and then I wanted to do a quick HOLP-like remake of DM-Sentinel but with more ways to reach to reach the belt since the lack of them royally f**ks that map up.

But I'm really bad at self-motivation, so that was obviously way too much for me to even think about doing.

MonsOlympus · Nov 29, 2008

You should be able to access the pawns collision component from the mutator

Leo(T.C.K.) · Nov 29, 2008

GreatEmerald said:
You didn't mention Epic. They also voted to take MP out of the game because of their UT2003. But that's not the point. What I meant was that later on they still made U2XMP - but on another branch of the engine! That does mean that they didn't complete it. Plus, what about all the Shian, N, Strider levels? And about Na Koja Abad cutscenes? They didn't have time!

That doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have time, as the textures and other things exist...I am sure they made the levels, at least in earlier versions(don't forget the engine changes, so yeah in the end they had maybe less time to port it over, but I will not be surprised if some of the cut and unused content was atari decision as well, some sources said it was their decision in fact)....simply no it doesn't mean anything what you have said and I have mentioned Epic for removing MP as well....they felt like that, but they didn't have the ultimate word for it, they just felt like it is better that way.............

And as for N, they didn't have own settings I think, unless some of these ruin or volcanic levels could be it, but they were rather race that appeared in some random missions and wanted to mess with things.................

Unreal2 was supposed to be a lot dynamic in terms of pawn interaction in missions as you perhaps know. You could even choose if to be friendly with that corporation or not during certain moments.

But again this is off topic, I think we should discuss this rather in U2 forum next time..........

As for this topic I have nothing to say else that I hope that this expansion will be good enough and hopefully still free for legal UT3 owners.

GreatEmerald · Nov 29, 2008

The_Head said:
Content sizes are increasing quickly, but remember the speed of the internet is to.

I remember taking hours to download the bonus packs for UT99 at 5kb/s..
I remember having to miss out on things like the CBP on UT2k3/4 when they came out as it would have took so long to download on 512kb/s....

As it stands now UT3 is working out the best for me, I've got 20mb, can download nearly anything I want in no time, problems is its the servers that aren't quick enough most of the time now.

Its not the games fault that other technology aren't keeping up with the ingame content size.

Hmpf... I still have 128k pure download speed >_< But that's Netspeed of 10000.

T2A` said:
x.SetDrawscale(1.185); // @@ FEET GO THROUGH FLOOR! I BELIEVE THIS IS BECAUSE YOU NEED A NEW PAWN CLASS WITH THESE SET AS DEFAULTS!

I had a lot of ideas for this mutator, but after feeling too unmotivated to figure out the collision problem I stopped working on it. Changes beyond what I've said already (bigger models et al.) were to include no adrenaline or shield gun, 5% faster game speed, more gravity, weapons that did more damage and a lot more momentum transfer, less self-damage for more effective spamming, a new armor system (not what UT3 has but to fix UT2004's), and various weapon tweaks.

But I'm really bad at self-motivation, so that was obviously way too much for me to even think about doing.

Don't forget that crouching also resets collision.

But anyway in this way you should have attempted to change PrePivot.
shield gun - my mutator does that
weapons that did more damage - my mutator does that
a lot more momentum transfer - my mutator does that
a new armor system - my mutator does that, thanks to the help of Wormbo
various weapon tweaks - my mutator does that
5% faster game speed - Game Speed mutator does that
Now what's left? Players, Adrenaline, gravity and self damage. And gravity could be easily changed by using the power of MutLowGrav. Quite a short list, eh?

FuLLBLeeD · Nov 29, 2008

Leo(T.C.K.) said:
That doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have time, as the textures and other things exist...I am sure they made the levels, at least in earlier versions(don't forget the engine changes, so yeah in the end they had maybe less time to port it over, but I will not be surprised if some of the cut and unused content was atari decision as well, some sources said it was their decision in fact)....simply no it doesn't mean anything what you have said and I have mentioned Epic for removing MP as well....they felt like that, but they didn't have the ultimate word for it, they just felt like it is better that way.............

And as for N, they didn't have own settings I think, unless some of these ruin or volcanic levels could be it, but they were rather race that appeared in some random missions and wanted to mess with things.................

Unreal2 was supposed to be a lot dynamic in terms of pawn interaction in missions as you perhaps know. You could even choose if to be friendly with that corporation or not during certain moments.

But again this is off topic, I think we should discuss this rather in U2 forum next time..........

As for this topic I have nothing to say else that I hope that this expansion will be good enough and hopefully still free for legal UT3 owners.

No, in order to breathe new life into the game it needs to and probably will be a retail patch.

T2A` · Nov 29, 2008

GreatEmerald said:
a new armor system - my mutator does that, thanks to the help of Wormbo

Depends on what you did to change the armor system. UT3's is bollocks, IMO, because the belt is equal in armor to collecting all three of others together. Since it's far easier to grab and control one item instead of three, the belt is actually better than all the others combined.

The change I was going to make to UT2004's system would be to get rid of the variable damage absorption rate. For some reason, when you have 50 armor it absorbs 50% of the damage, 100 does 75%, and 150 does 100%. This puts a lot of value on being completely stacked but means that a 50 armor doesn't help you that much.

I was simply going to give them all a 70% absorption rate and let the 50 armors stack. This would help 1v1s be less about camping the 100 (or belt in UT3) and more about moving around the map continually.

FuLLBLeeD · Nov 29, 2008

T2A` said:
Depends on what you did to change the armor system. UT3's is bollocks, IMO, because the belt is equal in armor to collecting all three of others together. Since it's far easier to grab and control one item instead of three, the belt is actually better than all the others combined.

The change I was going to make to UT2004's system would be to get rid of the variable damage absorption rate. For some reason, when you have 50 armor it absorbs 50% of the damage, 100 does 75%, and 150 does 100%. This puts a lot of value on being completely stacked but means that a 50 armor doesn't help you that much.

I was simply going to give them all a 70% absorption rate and let the 50 armors stack. This would help 1v1s be less about camping the 100 (or belt in UT3) and more about moving around the map continually.

What's so bad about UT3's armor system?

Steve Polge about UT3 Expansion Pack

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