3Dbuzz top 10 finalist so far

BIOS said:

Warlock has flaws, but I don't play it competitively. It's fun over system link with my buddies, and that's about all I care about. And believe it or not, playtesting can yield good results, whether you think it can or not, or whether or not you agree with the results. I don't want to argue semantics though and I certainly don't fault you for disliking Warlock...in fact, I agree with its tactical flaws. But don't flame me for stating that Warlock is why it is for a reason, not some random LD design...which is what you inferred initially.

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No LOLLL
I really don'T want to start any flaming lol, you maybe, misunderstood me lol. There is nothing I respect more than video games lovers, even with different views, opinions and experiences. We have a lot of talented guys here.

Warlock, can be enjoyable, unfortunately I don't see how it could be accepted by MLG.

I do think that Level Design and Game Design are way too complex for a 5 years old kid because it requires some kind of general culture, creativity and understanding, but I do think that a 5 years old kid could do better than Warlock lolllll. I must add, with the next gen games coming and with their complexity, I doubt that a five years old kid would be able to balance and deal with all that (not talking about just run, jump and gun games)

Playtesting is great, but it can be wrong if not verified properly. It isn't an easy thing and making mistakes and learning from these are a natruel way of life so we can't blame that. So I do agree with you.

ah, another point. This one in Hyrage's favour. Hang-'em-High. A classic map for Halo 1 that I have spent more hours on that I would like to think of. Not only was there a terrible lack of balance, but it was essentially a giant box with some cover inside of it and a few elevation changes. The balance was that elevation gave players an easy view to almost the entire map at a single point, these such locations though also resulted in no cover and the possibility of easily being picked off. Unfortunately that particular map degraded into a match of human pistol sniping and whoever had the most skill and perhaps luck won.
Yes, that's all fun and cool you say, but what does this have to do in the argument towards level design? That level was severly flawed in many ways, and yet it was playable. That map was the first map created by one of the Bungie team members. Yes they had guidance, yes they had assistance, yes they had an increased cognitive ability in comparison to a child, but no they did not have the experience. So, yes, it may be arguable that a fun and playable map can come from some one with essentially no experience, it is unreasonable to assume as much from a child conscidering the patience of a child.

Now to my own personal story as a reference. I used the Ued Runtime as my first dabbling into Ued, this was as I was toying around with the painfully simple Far Cry editor (as previously mentioned) and I didn't have the patience to do much in it beyond learning the movement controls. I let that sit on the back burner for some time while I continued learning very basic tools such as Google Sketch up. Now it is important to say that I was one of those children who (at a younger age) would spend hours building legos, which in many ways can be a test of patience. So, simple to say, I was still too impatient for Ued. I must say though, my childhood is not intended to be a representation of the childhood of everyone else that builds levels, I am merely using it as an elaborate real-world example.

Again, pardon my ignorance on some matters of which I have spoken.

Hmm actually Hang-'em-High (remake Tombstone) is the map I skipped the most on Halo 2. I never played other than Rocket matches in that map on Halo : CE because none of us enjoyed it in any other ways. What doesn't mean many other players woulnd't like it, for sure.

We should not forget that some games can be played with different settings. You must think about that while designing the map so... I guess some maps were made with a lot of opened possibilities.

If we talk by example about the Halo 3 maps, most of them seem incompleted or having a lack of layout, etc, but in another perspective it lets the players the opportunity to modify the maps the way they prefer for Custom Matches with Forge. That was probably their hardest constraint.

Floating Pyramids was made by a professional. Haha.

hyperbolic

Metakill said:

Floating Pyramids was made by a professional. Haha.

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For fairness's sake, Noxx also made Facing Worlds. Hits and misses I guess.

Yet at the same time I don't think a five-year old would have the intellect to create a level like that.

The child would have to be seven at least

Sure creating a layout is easy, but the hard part is creating a GOOD layout.
You might laugh at who spends lots of time balancing a layout to make it as good as possible, but usually it's always the people like you who creates maps that focuses only on the visuals without any respect for common gameplay rules and optimization.
Sure doing maps like that you will always see some kids telling that it's a great map that runs great on the Quad Core 4 GB Ram with 9800 GTX that their dad bought them, but you will never see them played online seriously (oh, it doesn't matter anyway, it's not like UT 3 is a competitive multiplayer FPS, or is it?) or winning a serious contest like MSUC.

Glad to hear that for you creating layouts is terribly easy... looking forward to playing your future great maps . Possibly without buying a new PC to do so

XYZ8000: your post confuses me. It seems as though it was intended as an insult, though to whom I don't know, nor do I know why. It could easily be misunderstanding in my interpretation of the text. When you say

Glad to hear that for you creating layouts is terribly easy

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Please correct me if I have missunderstood your statement.

Comparing Halo maps to UT3 maps is ridiculous. Apples and oranges.

Why? One reason is that Halo's linear movement speed is vastly lower (and there's no dodging) so maps have to be a lot smaller in lateral play area (or they have to be really open to keep the action going). In order to keep things from getting cramped the maps have to make up for it by increasing the vertical play area. Add in the completely different weapon set, powerups, and the fact that it's a shooter designed from the ground up for console (whereas UT is not... UT3 is way to fast and frantic to be what I'd call a fully console game) and the comparison between the two mapping philosophies falls apart.

I recently released a CTF map called CTF-React and the layout of the map seems really simple (because it is). However that doesn't mean that it was easy to think up. If you read through my notes on the map you'll see that there is a lot more to think about when designing a level than just hallways and rooms. Item placement and the integration of decorations with the level base are huge things that can completely change a level. For example if I had made the central rock structure just a little bit taller (by a few feet or so), hammer jumping up there would not have been possible and literally the entire flow of the map is changed.

Anyway my point is that it's not as simple as it seems.

Pinnacle, I agree with that. The comparison from UT3 to Halo was not in the specific layout styles or forms, but in general complexity and difficulty in design. However, I also see what you mean by comparing the variable complexity due to weapon, pickup, and other features. Hmm. I hadn't thought about it that way. Thanks.

Pinnacle, you've got a good point. People will complain about layouts that don't work but when a layout works it's as if "God did it" or it "just does" and they don't stop to think the designer made it work, most players don't think about it because they don't stop to think about it. Not that they really have to, they need to keep fragging

Mclogenog said:

XYZ8000: your post confuses me. It seems as though it was intended as an insult, though to whom I don't know, nor do I know why. It could easily be misunderstanding in my interpretation of the text. Please correct me if I have missunderstood your statement.

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Sorry if it wasn't clear, it was directed to Hyrage. It's not meant as an insult, I was just pointing out that who (him) is now laughing at the people who cares about gameplay for all the effort spent in creating and balancing a layout has so far created only one UT 3 map, which is full of gimmicks that makes it a mess to play (Deployable Energy Shield and Invulnerability, just to mention two) plus it runs so bad that I literally have to turn down to min the details and resolution (so it's like if I was playing at 320x240) to still have a not-so-good framerate.

XYZ8000 said:

Sorry if it wasn't clear, it was directed to Hyrage. It's not meant as an insult, I was just pointing out that who (him) is now laughing at the people who cares about gameplay for all the effort spent in creating and balancing a layout has so far created only one UT 3 map, which is full of gimmicks that makes it a mess to play (Deployable Energy Shield and Invulnerability, just to mention two) plus it runs so bad that I literally have to turn down to min the details and resolution (so it's like if I was playing at 320x240) to still have a not-so-good framerate.

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Absolutely right.
It was my first "map" using the Unreal Technologies, pretty much like a test room for me than a map, but it turns out cool enough to place myself on the 3D Buzz in the Top 10, because the map is actually fun, interesting and having a good layout. Now I know how lighting, kismet, cascade. matinee and optimization work in UE3.

The map is big enough to handle TDM and not just DM, but also CTF. Is the design not deep enough? The Deployable Energy shield is oky and same goes for the Shaped Charge. For invulnerability... if you don't get it or not able to protect it, or whatever, the problem is only you.

The main problem with Str8Control is the optimization, but it's pretty much only happening in the Courtyard area. Other than that, I would go with a better visual, learning the 3D meshes I could use, etc... I'm not satisfied with the final visuals. If you think the layout is poor, go back to it because it's not the average UT3 map with corridors over and over again. There is a lot of shortcuts to better handle the map.

And finally, I really don't know where you did get "I prefer Visuals over Gameplay, because I largely prefer old school BSP maps instead of crappy uber-visually-looking maps". My Demo Reel tells it all lolllll.

I just took a look at your website, good stuff there .

Sir_Brizz said:

Having played Hyrage's entry into the 3D Buzz contest, I think we can safely null and void any of his comments in this thread on level design and map reviewing.

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That was a poor comment without any arguments that I can only take as a weak attack, but thank you .
Better keep your energies for bigger issues or your own projects.

Hyrage said:

Absolutely right.
It was my first "map" using the Unreal Technologies, pretty much like a test room for me than a map, but it turns out cool enough to place myself on the 3D Buzz in the Top 10, because the map is actually fun, interesting and having a good layout. Now I know how lighting, kismet, cascade. matinee and optimization work in UE3.

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It plays more like a test map than a real Deathmatch map. I had very little fun playing it, found the "interesting bits" to be gimmicks, and the layout to be mediocre. Finally, the frame rates were very poor, lowering the fun to be had in this map by even more.

The map is big enough to handle TDM and not just DM, but also CTF. Is the design not deep enough? The Deployable Energy shield is oky and same goes for the Shaped Charge. For invulnerability... if you don't get it or not able to protect it, or whatever, the problem is only you.

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The map is far too big for DM, TDM it might work. Invulnerability is okay in some DM maps (albeit most of the time it's just a bad gimmick), but the deployables are all-but exclusive to VCTF and Warfare. I'm sure there's some way to implement these deployables in a way that could be fun in Deathmatch, but I didn't find that to be the case here; it just breaks the map. The problem is not the player; it's just not a smart design choice.

The main problem with Str8Control is the optimization, but it's pretty much only happening in the Courtyard area. Other than that, I would go with a better visual, learning the 3D meshes I could use, etc... I'm not satisfied with the final visuals. If you think the layout is poor, go back to it because it's not the average UT3 map with corridors over and over again. There is a lot of shortcuts to better handle the map.

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My main grief with the layout is that it lacks good flow. It's difficult to control the map and ultimately winds up being spam more than tactics.

And finally, I really don't know where you did get "I prefer Visuals over Gameplay, because I largely prefer old school BSP maps instead of crappy uber-visually-looking maps". My Demo Reel tells it all lolllll.

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Sheesh, I'd rather play a map that was just BSP but had great gameplay than a visual knockout that plays like crap. And looking at the success of the HOLP map pack, I think a lot of people in the community think the same.

I just took a look at your website, good stuff there .

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Xenon was pretty damn good. Of course, gotta give credit to Slainchild as well as XYZ8000.

That was a poor comment without any arguments that I can only take as a weak attack, but thank you .
Better keep your energies for bigger issues or your own projects.

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His argument is the level you made. I found that if your map reflects your knowledge of map design (for UT3 at least), then Brizz is on the mark.

Nice to hear, but actually I have a lot of players who prefer that map over the Original UT3 maps. I do wait to hear in what the layout is mediocre.

I did plan to make a CTF version (if you ever watched the Epic Games Forums), but I never released it due to the many versions I got through with the DM version of the map, also due to multiple contests.

Trynant said:

His argument is the level you made. I found that if your map reflects your knowledge of map design (for UT3 at least), then Brizz is on the mark.

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I now know how to deal with UT3 proportions due to the player movements, (there are plenty of huge wall-jump in Str8Control to move faster in the map, something you probably didn't experienced telling me the Layout is mediocre), but I also design my maps for other mutators [Matrix Moves, Real Weapons & Ripper Lite], UT3 is very basic in terms of Level Design. It's also my first real time with the Unreal Franchise, simply because I did like they previous Unreal... the visual style (tiny characters) and colorful sci-fi weapons, but I've played pretty much every other good shooter games straight above the average skills... also why UT3 is pretty much in the standard to me.

IMHO

Hyrage said:

It's also my first real time with the Unreal Franchise, simply because I did like they previous Unreal... the visual style (tiny characters) and colorful sci-fi weapons, but I've played pretty much every other good shooter games straight above the average skills... also why UT3 is pretty much in the standard to me.

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This last bit is slightly unintelligible. You mean to say you didn't like the previous Unreals...? What on earth does in the standard mean?

I do wait to hear in what the layout is mediocre.

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Anyways, I took some more time to play your map.

The positives first:

+The July edition you released on the Epic forums has much better framerates than the one in the 3DBuzz contest. So :tup: there.
+Overall the map is visually appealing, which is a pretty hefty feat considering the size of the map.

Now for some nitpicking:
-The AVRiL is worthless without vehicles for it to take down. The map could do without it.
-The signpost that electrocutes the water should not be permanent.
-Some walls look too much like the doors in your map (the area below the damage amp is a good example). This is slightly confusing and compounds the flow.

Things that I dislike:
-The map is very cramped in far too many places. This results in restricting much of the dodging and strafing that Unreal Tournament excels in. I often find myself just pressing the forward key because there's just no room to move in.
-There is very little rhyme or reason to the map. It just feels like it's sprawling out in all directions, making matches chaotic and senseless. Concepts like control points and risk vs. reward are poorly implemented.
-Along with being cramped, the map overall feels "walled in." While there are certainly windows to shoot out from and high spots to take pot shots in, the ability to take control over the map is lost. It's simply too big and far too little interconnected for anything other than "spam" gameplay.

The map is somewhat fun, but ultimately its gameplay is pretty shallow and based on nifty tricks that fail to deliver any real tactics, and it gets repetitive after a while. The design this map leads to is "run around, pick up whatever you can find, shoot anything that moves, repeat." There are a lot of maps you may consider as "corridors over and over again" that provide tactical elements that lead to interesting, diverse encounters.

To put it bluntly, I think the map is a spamfest with lots of gimmicks. The build is great, but the layout is not. Lots of people may like it, but I don't.

AWE 2/3
BUILD 3/3
CAST 1/3
FUN FACTOR 0/1
OVERALL 6/10

That was a great review
The main building was designed to be that way (mainly the 3rd floor).
The Avril is a one shot kill weapon, for highly skilled players, it wasn't about vehicles.

I totally agree, the Publicity sign gameplay shouldn't be permanent.

This post by Sir_Brizz sums up what I think of the top 5.

And, of course, Marauder is a 5/5 for me.
Plutonic is my favourite mapper since Unreal Tournament.

Marauder was definately a great map on the overall, but the layout is a bit too large for my taste. It feels way to empty, same for Gutter... but both were awesome map on the overall.

Marauder large? I guess you didn't love UT2004, did you?