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Wow, see now thats what I was talking about with scripted sequences being called AI! Is all that dynamic with the fishing, fixing etc or is that controlled by the mapper? I would guess the latter, sure the mapper could put in points which allow the AI to make a descision but usually it forces the AI to do something.
Like the chatting for eg, if that was dynamic then perhaps the backstory would unfold differently for different people. Just depends though I guess.
And on the topic of UT3, I was gonna mention in my last post about the squad and overall team tactics in UT3. It is rather advanced and even more so over 2k4 it seems, the AI just works better in a team or squad now than it used to. Its also pretty dynamic, you see a friendly and you need covering like if you have the flag and the AI will switch roles automatically.
There does actually seem to be some of this in bots, like for eg you kill a bot a few times I dunno if its just me but it seems to get alittle pissed off at you
I'll agree that UT3 AI is better than a lot of other AIs I have seen in games, but at the same time there is something very 'digital' about it.
For instance, sometimes you see a bot exhibit behaviour that hints at hesitation.
This is not hesitation in the human way, however.
It's simply the bot receiving multiple "go here" commands at once, repeatedly, and not being able to pick one due to too many options to choose from. At least, that's what it seems like. It keeps repeating the same half-second movement pattern over and over, until you either kill it, damage it (priority shift-> get health which throws the dilemma off balance), or something else happens that urges a bot to move.
What happens when a human is uncertain of what to do, however, is not like that. They don't start running in a zig-zag pattern across the same room repeatedly. They'll often do something irrational, simply just pick one after a while depending on other factors, fight rather weakly while thinking what to do, or forget about shields or items altogether and just go for an easy kill.
(Note that in all these examples I'm talking about low-medium skill level bots and players. High-level competition players tend to know exactly what they're doing, but that's not a good standard to judge AI against.)
Just throwing this in here, because I don't want to start another bitching thread about UT3, but here's some legit probs and why people won't switch to UT3 for a long time.
I was just part of the management for a 90 person LAN this weekend, and we had a couple tournaments (obviously) - the CoD4 tournament went well, everyone was able to play and server configuration was reportedly a breeze. People were in the pub games as well for nearly the entire LAN. TF2, while not a tournament, had a packed 32 person server from literally 10 AM to 10 AM, with no major reported problems (I had some crashing problems but I worked around them).
When the UT3 tournament came around, we had 21 people signed up (including myself). While the tournament was supposed to start at 6, it ended up starting at 6:30 due to server configuration problems. When we finally got it started, we were using CustomUT...which added another half hour as the server was perma-stuck in warmup mode (nomatter how many times you typed "ready" the server would still say you were ready for the first time). I crashed two or three times before I could get in the game, two of them requiring a reboot. When I finally popped into the match, it all of a sudden randomly started working. All of this crap eventually lead one of the server admins to loudly declare that we weren't ever hosting UT3 again, amongst a chorus of cries for them to change the tournament to UT2k4 or even UT1.
The matches went reasonably well, but still - the reason UT3 isn't popular is because it's buggy as hell. The dedicated server has been lambasted time and again at these LAN events for being huge to download (we didn't have a UT3 pug game at all for the whole event because the one guy willing to run a UT3 dedicated didn't want to download it with the throttled internet we had (it was throttled to keep people off of WOW and in the LAN games) ), and incredibly difficult to set up.
I'm just saying that if anybody wants to "save" this game, the patches should be coming out much faster, fix less/bigger things so as to facilitate a rapid release schedule, and just generally improve the state of running this game.
Yeah I can agree with that, digital is a good way to put it actually. Hesitation is something which is hard to predict though even in humans so its hard to know which would be the conditions where a bot would actually hesitate.
One thing I do find about the bots especially lower level ones is they stick to their current objective alittle too strongly, to me hunt/retreat should be something always on the mind of a DM player. The bots though might have a find leader objective (TDM) and will ignore enemies based on that, which ends up with them getting killed while running away. Humans wouldnt act like that, depending on the agressiveness of the player they might choose to charge and take the two players out and proceed back on with fining the leader in TDM, thats even if they are playing with the team in mind.
Another one I dont really like is they dont seem to aquire multiple targets very well, it would be kewl to see them take the position of 2 players and aim a rocket accordingly to get a double kill. This is something you'll see a human do often or see that there are two stronger players battling and choose to avoid conflict and go for a pickup, or to get the drop on both and get the double kill. They seem to only choose one target at aim as accurately as they can at that.
So there is certainly areas it could be improved, I would really like to take a shot and making the AI more advanced myself but Id think if there was anything to be done Epic would have done in for UT3.
Assuming 1 is avg skill bots, I would think this is alittle strange. To note an avg bot can time a shieldbelt almost dead on but I rarely see them go for the vest on diesel
Maybe its just some tweaking that needs to be done, I guess the really hard question in all of this is how do you rate a human like AI in skill, maybe the skill level could be removed and the bots all spawn with different skill levels. That would probably be more like a real online match than picking 1 skill for all players(bots) in the match, I guess its because all similar skill level gives the most consistancy and makes the game harder. If you got like 2 godlikes on one team and none on the other Im sure the team with godlikes would win, especially if the human happens to be on that team as well
Point not proven at all and I already addressed it in my threads ... you just are another one of those folks who feels like they always need to get in the last word or post when they are debating me and what you fail to realize is that your logic is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve to be acknowledged any longer. Instead of playing both games and experiencing them yourself you decide to use Wiki to support your laughable argument. If that isn't the most ludicrous crap I have seen. Wiki is not the final word on anything ... it is hardly the most reliable documentation about a topic on the web, and once people start treating it like it is and using it to support their inept arguments they lose me. And when a person really loses me I just ignore them from then on. I get tired of debating senseless folks. Its tiring.
@anuban: dude crysis shares more in common with farcry than farcry 2 does with farcry, so keeping within in the same IP doesnt show any more or less consistancy. Its also by the same developer who did farcry where 2k4 wasnt as heavy on Epic as UT3 is.
I smell a hint of fanboi, seriously you cant bitch about someone else being a UT fanboi then get all angry when you are doing the same for crysis.
I smell a hint of BS and I am really getting sick of folks calling me a fanboy because I am using sound logic to show that the two games have very little in common. Maybe you are a UT fanboy ... I don't know as I have never accused of such a thing and have actually always been very pleasant towards you so I don't get this attitude of yours towards me. Anyway I don't even care Mons ... you are totally incorrect on this one imo and we can keep this up but you won't change my mind and you have shown me nothing that indicates you actually played both games. I can't believe you have if you think they have so much in common.
And about the developers doing both games ... so what ... what does that have to do with anything? The game has a totally different identity. The same cannot be said about the UT/UC and even Gears of War. Hell Gears of War and UT3 have much much more in common than Crysis and FarCry ever will. Hell the damn characters look almost identical and the outfits the Theron Guards and Raam wear look almost exactly like the Ronin outfits.
So because you say so he doesnt have a point? Man I thought you were better than that, you havent proven at all that farcry shares nothing in common with crysis because it would be simply a lie. Whos senseless?
So because you says so he doesnt have a point? Man I thought you were better than that, you havent proven at all that farcry shares nothing in common with crysis because it would be simply a lie. Whos senseless?
From the look of things you are ... if you want to start with the personal attacks for no real reason at all. I said imo and he has his but his and yours for that matter are grounded in baseless BS that makes no sense to any person who has actually played both games completely. I already said it shares two things with FarCry ... two lousy things and you UT fanboys who are so threatened by how amazing of a SP campaign based game it is compared to anything that Epic has released just need to quit. Seriously. Its starting to get nasty and I don't want that so we should just agree to disagree before this goes any farther and leave it at that.
Yeah well for your information Ive beat crysis, so dont even start with that. I dont remember attacking anyone, infact I was just responding to your comments this whole time.
2 things in common hey, I must have missed that through all the other ranting, zomg do I have to apologize now? I dont think so since we are on a UT forum not the crysis boards!
Agreeing to disagree is what you should have done before you even bothered to post that crap about every game being better than UT on a UT forum! I mean honestly, what did you expect?
I smell a hint of BS and I am really getting sick of folks calling me a fanboy because I am using sound logic to show that the two games have very little in common. Maybe you are a UT fanboy ... I don't know as I have never accused of such a thing and have actually always been very pleasant towards you so I don't get this attitude of yours towards me. Anyway I don't even care Mons ... you are totally incorrect on this one imo and we can keep this up but you won't change my mind and you have shown me nothing that indicates you actually played both games. I can't believe you have if you think they have so much in common.
And about the developers doing both games ... so what ... what does that have to do with anything? The game has a totally different identity. The same cannot be said about the UT/UC and even Gears of War. Hell Gears of War and UT3 have much much more in common than Crysis and FarCry ever will. Hell the damn characters look almost identical and the outfits the Theron Guards and Raam wear look almost exactly like the Ronin outfits.
I am a UT fanboi, its okay you can say it. Its not a derogative term! Im not going to disagree about Gears and UT3, you know why cause you are right. But that still doesnt change anything does it, Crysis and Farcry do share alot in common, thats not to say they are the same game. I dont think anyone has said that!
And stop trying to tell me which games I have and havent played or it will get personal! Thats just childish and low and you know it.
You're making it awfully easy for me.
Easy in the sense that my fingers aren't getting the workout they expect from a nice discussion. Whether I have the last post or win, I don't give a darn about. That's what childish people obsess over.
From now on, anything I reply to you that is not relevant to the thread will be in spoiler tags. I can't imagine anyone here being interested in having to read the same stuff over and over again.
So people, sorry for the huge black box. It still beats a huge wall of text.
If you're going to judge everyone you debate based on your 'everyone wants to hate me' stereotype, you're never going to learn anything from other people as well as never see any of your own errors.
See, it's really easy. If I call you a brainless tard right now, that means that I can justify regarding anything that you post from now on as complete BS to myself.
Rational adults, however, tend not to use this 'debating technique', also known as sticking one's head in the sand, because it is widely regarded as ignorant.
A few tips for constructing a counter-argument.
1) Stating how stupid someone is while avoiding the point being discussed is known as an ad-hominem("at man" in Latin) attack in debating. Ad-hominems prove nothing except that the person using it is either out of valid (counter-)arguments(thus in many cases, wrong), or a very bad debater.
2) Calling wikipedia inaccurate seems to be the hip thing to do right now.
In fact it's not hip. It's redundant. Everyone knows wikipedia is not the definitive source of information regarding everything.
However, one can be pretty damn sure that there aren't legions of interwebbers out there furiously submitting false descriptions of a video game to wikipedia, in case someone wanted to prove a false point about it.
If you are skeptical of the accuracy of wikipedia, compare your 'expert knowledge' of Far Cry and Crysis (having played through the games multiple times) against what is stated in the article and come to the conclusion that this page is in fact completely accurate. If even this fails due to lack of accurate recollection, compare it to the dozens of other Far Cry reviews floating around on the net, and once again, conclude that the article is accurate.
2a) Continuing point 2: When debating, bringing facts and their sources is a good way to support an argument. This explains the use of wikipedia.
Your way of supporting it, namely using exclamation marks and a call to expertise without any source, credentials, or support at all except "I said it, so it's true" is something that will make you the laughing stock of all the people engaged in the debate.
Also, what makes you think that your own opinion is more accurate than wikipedia anyway?
3) A particularly relevant quote comes to mind. Although I can't find the exact wording, it went something like this.
"Debating someone who doesn't know how to is like playing chess against someone who doesn't know the rules. No matter how good you are, they will change the rules. You can never win."
4) When debating it's important to put aside your ego. Egos have been known to have driven many otherwise smart people to do, think or say really stupid stuff in order to save said ego. Getting worked up like you just did is not healthy if you ever plan to engage in debates or discussions of more serious matter than whether two videogames are alike or not.
Imagine you are in a relationship, and your GF/wife wants to discuss something, yet all you can manage to say is "It's just stupid how you could say that! I mean, seriously, you just don't make any sense at all! You're a retard! I can't stand people like you who always want to be right. I laught at your incompetence at life! I am right because I am, and if you think otherwise, you're stupid!", don't expect that relationship to last very long.
--
I wanted to post an "in closing" paragraph here, but then I scrolled back up and started correcting/improving grammar and typos and now I forgot what I wanted to post.
Anyway, think up something you like and imagine it here instead of this text.
Mons, I think the AI indeed isn't as advanced as mentioned because of system limitations and such, as well as the large amount of manhours needed to construct such a system.
It would be difficult, of course, but not impossible. The whole thing could still be written in typical conditional statements and loops and the likes, it should just reflect the way a player interacts with the game instead of the way the game interacts with it's own internal code.
Something like this would also probably have solved the 'bots have insane reaction time' issue before it ever existed.
Now that I think about it, I might be able to turn this into my research subject for this quarter's course.
I'm not sure the advanced programming would really be covered by Industrial Design, but it sure relates to user interaction design.
PS. No, in fact I don't have any life at all, ATM. I just can't get to sleep yet so I decided to type up some random rambling instead of staring at my ceiling.
Yeah manhours is certainly another issue, the main guy behind the AI on UT was like a lead designer/programmer this time around so he had alot to oversee. Im not saying that Im dissapointed at all with UT3's AI, its still way up there in terms of game AI these days. I would have liked to see more but I dont expect it.
To me Epic delivered and continues to deliver in this department, when I get shown clips of bots busting through windows and all this talk on an AI ecosystem it really does get ones hopes up. When games fail to deliver that, thats when I get dissapointed! Especially when what I get in return is nothing even close, I mean sure it is easy to overlook alittle bit of AI nuances but when the whole system is completely different or is much more limited to what the developer what was saying on offer. Well...
To that end though I think UT3 has a heap of potential as a moddable game, Im not going to say it has all the features one would like but in terms of UT3's hardrware overhead vs other engines that alone means there is alot more headway moving forward. In saying that as well It wouldnt surprise me if Epic has a hard time selling UE4 in the future other than it supports newer consoles better because of how much potential UE3 has.
I can't see how you come to this conclusion ... not at all. I emphatically disagree with you and I have played both games several times. They most definitely DO NOT play the same other than the fact they take place in a tropical setting (and even that is not really accurate. The two islands are very very different and that is very apparent if you played both games) and they both have an open nature. Big deal though ... you don't say IHUD and Spiderman 2 are the same game because they take place in a big city that is open and they are superheros. PLEASE.
So how does anyone get the nerve to say that FarCry and Crysis are the same or share game elements ... I just don't get that ... not at all. You don't say that Crackdown and GTA IV are the same game just because they both deal with open urban environments and criminals ... several games feature a similar setting and setup but each one plays out very differently due to the actual gameplay mechanics.
I don't see anything significant they share in common. Not even the enemies they fight. Mercenaries and monsters in one game and Soliders and Aliens in the other with the U.S. military being directly involved. How anyone on earth could say these two are the same game or even similar at all beyond the two things I mentioned previously just blows my mind. Folks need to play FarCry again and then go back and play Crysis and stop all this nonsensical talk.
Take it for what it is, I dont have to adapt my playing style between Far Cry and Crysis making it a comfortable transition compared to as much as I have to change my playing style when playing diffrent Unreal titles.
Never played IHUD, Spiderman2, GTA4 or Crackdown so cant comment on those. But same can be said about the Unreal franchise thats supposed to be in the same universe despite that feeling and playing completly diffrent from the previous incarnation of the game.
UT, UT2K3 and UT3 feels like worlds apart despite being the same franchise and same universe even further apart if comparing it with Unreal1 and Unreal2.
Change dosent encourage growth imo, it splits old from new and thus fractures instead, improving or refining something does encourage growth since it encourages old and new to merge rather than split apart.
Since I still play Unreal1 and other assorted games from the late 90's and hoped for another Unreal game with same or similar premise that would bring old/new/multi/single under the same roof again, so in a sense yes call it nostalgia if you want.
CS didnt get to where it is today by radiclly changing its winning formula rather they refined the game and thats probablly why its still one of the most popular FPS out there despite several years on its neck by not throwing out the old ones in the process. Thats the diffrence between improving something and changing something.
CS didnt get to where it is today by radiclly changing its winning formula rather they refined the game and thats probablly why its still one of the most popular FPS out there despite several years on its neck by not throwing out the old ones in the process. Thats the diffrence between improving something and changing something.
Yes it did. For a game that started out with like 5 weapons and hardly anything else, it sure evolved far away from that. If you're talking about since Valve bought them, maybe not. But they were the most play Half Life ANYTHING for years before they were bought out, and they made drastic gameplay changes in almost every single release.
Yes it did. For a game that started out with like 5 weapons and hardly anything else, it sure evolved far away from that. If you're talking about since Valve bought them, maybe not. But they were the most play Half Life ANYTHING for years before they were bought out, and they made drastic gameplay changes in almost every single release.
Yes the early days were very chaotic there was like a new map, weapon, death animation or model to choose from each time an update came out ... they peaked at 1.1 and seem to have stuck with it ever since only ever changing minor hitbox issues and anti cheat stuff even under source its exactly the same as it has been for years now just a better looking engine and no sheilds
Change dosent encourage growth imo, it splits old from new and thus fractures instead, improving or refining something does encourage growth since it encourages old and new to merge rather than split apart.
Also, I'd like to contradict your statement by looking at history in general.
A long time ago, there were bicycles only, no cars.
If people had stuck to improving and refining only, we'd be riding some pimp-ass bicycles today, but cars wouldn't exist.
Somewhere along history, someone decided that transportation didn't necessarily have to be muscle-powered, and fixed a coal engine on a cart.
Sure that split up the user base, but it was a radical step forward.
Of course there are cases of 'bad' innovation and you can exclude them from my example, but I think you'll find the ones that really stick are the good ones.
Other examples are electric lighting instead of firelight, printing techniques instead of handwritten books, the change from monarchy (often tyranny) to democracy, etc...
I'd choose a split userbase that results in better games in the end over a united userbase playing the same thing over and over anytime.
One great thing about Audiosurf is that you get noticeably better every day. I'm consistently able to top my own high scores by quite a bit, even if they're from just a day or two earlier. But then I also happen to play a whole lot...
Also I find Dragonforce pretty overrated in Audiosurf, and enjoy a variety of techno and other metal a lot more. I do, however, have a couple top global spots on some of their songs... only 4th on Through Fire and Flames (on pro, I generally play pro more than elite) though, never did get around to putting the time into moving up, since I like their other songs better >.<.
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