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NTKB
23rd Dec 2001, 01:49 PM
Which bullet is more powerful: .357 magnum or .45 ACP?

I noticed the new SOCOM pistol will use .45 ACP ammo. Will this have more recoil than the DE or will it be more powerful? Anyone who actually knows please answer. Dont answer if you "think" you know. Thank you.

Bullzeye
23rd Dec 2001, 02:01 PM
The .357 mag has more power because of the fact that it is a smaller bullet and has more powder... But smaller bullet equalls less stopping power... and it has more recoil than the .45

The .45 ACP is all about stopping power... .45 FMJ can knock the living $hit out of someone and with a lot more structaral damage. If you want to stop 'em in their tracks with one shot, go with the .45 anytime... Personally, I don't think the SOCOM should be introduced until the team fine tunes the ballistics system. This whole, two shots yer dead no matter what Idea has got to go. At close range, a .45'll drop your ass with one shot. Any Viet Nam vets in this who saw combat should be able to confirm.

I'm sure some ignorant prick will flame me now... :rolleyes:

MilkMan_Dan
23rd Dec 2001, 02:51 PM
We have a **edit**.357 **edit**Magnum revolver. Everytime I shoot it almost flies out of my hand. It really does kick like a 'mo. I've never shot a .45 but I could imagine it kicks pretty hard also. Guns equate to fun!

The_Fur
23rd Dec 2001, 02:54 PM
*waits for shakken to chew on bullseye*

Zundfolge
23rd Dec 2001, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Bullzeye

The .45 ACP is all about stopping power... .45 FMJ can knock the living $hit out of someone and with a lot more structaral damage. If you want to stop 'em in their tracks with one shot, go with the .45 anytime...
First of all a .45FMJ will more then likely just pass through you doing less damage, now a .45JHP will knock you on your ass (so will a .357Mag JHP or a 9mm JHP ... the JHP part is the important part).

At close range, a .45'll drop your ass with one shot. Any Viet Nam vets in this who saw combat should be able to confirm.
.45acp has less of a "1 shot stop" record then .357mag (and not just according to Evans & Marshall).
Both hover around 90% 1 shot stops.
Any beat cop will tell you that most handguns don't drop someone in 1 shot (that's why God invented the 12ga ;) )

I'm sure some ignorant prick will flame me now... :rolleyes:
I'm not even going to comment, ShakKen please fire when in position :p

Goat Fucker
23rd Dec 2001, 03:13 PM
The two cant really be compared like that, they aim to do two different jobs.

The 45 .ACP is a rather blunt round, it will go into the target, but it wont come out the other side, it will however cause massive damege where it does penetrate.
In essence, its a low penetration-low velocity round with allot of stopping power on soft tagets, it wont travel very far though, and it will bouce off most body armour.

The 357 Mag is the opposite, its a slim long projectile with a big casing to send it on its way, meaning its a high penetration-high velocity round.
It will penetrate allot more, making it superior to the 45 .ACP against hard targets, but it wont do as much damage to soft tagets, it will however overpenatrate, meaning instead of one bleeding hole, theres two, and the target will die from loss of blood faster if youre aim was off.

So it really depends on what situation you find youreself in, against a soft target, i would want the 45 .ACP, against a hard target, i would want the 357 MAG, but thats in the real world, in INF...meh, we'll see how well they pull it off :D

EDIT: Damn you ZŁndy and youre slightly faster typing skills!

DRmechanic
23rd Dec 2001, 03:24 PM
The 45ACP has the best "stopping power" because of its shear wieght (230gr). The 357 mag, on the other hand, is on record as having the most "one-shot kills". Both rounds are excellent handgun rounds but I'll stick with wieght over velocity any day.

Yes, the 357mag can and will over penatrate it's intended target (not many crooks wearing body armour) and strike another unintended target.

The_Fur
23rd Dec 2001, 03:28 PM
May i point out that "stopping power" and "1 shot drop" are just buzzwords? Neither means anything. If you go up against anything whatever penetrates the best wins, that is why 9mm is about the worlds most standard ammunition and .45 is not.
It's a left over from the days that people still thougt that bigger caliber=better, which it is not (that is why the glaser safety slug failed so bad, it makes only large superficial wounds, they may look messy but they are a lot less likely to be lethal then a 9mm trough your spleen or some other organ).

.45 lacks range and velocity and combined with it's poor aerodynamic design about the only thing that is keeping it out of obsolence are the aforemented buzzwords.

If you shoot to kill you want something that makes holes, the deeper the better, because metal objects in your body don't kill you, holes in vital organs do.
And as GF said, 1 shot hardly ever drops a suspect, you want something that carries as much rounds as possible... another reason to opt for anything but .45

DRmechanic
23rd Dec 2001, 04:00 PM
Here's a buzzword for you... Spray n Pray! The idea being, if you throw enough lead in a given direction... your bound to hit something:p To bad marksmanship doesn't mean much anymore... only large capacity magazines:rolleyes:

Gryphon
23rd Dec 2001, 04:30 PM
"People say, this is everything. Velocity is everything. Caliber is everything. Placement is everything. Permanent cavity is everything. Temporary cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something."

- Massad Ayoob

I think that just about sums it up.

Shrap
23rd Dec 2001, 06:06 PM
What about a flame now :) ?

...Its an SKS ! :D

NTKB
23rd Dec 2001, 09:36 PM
Ok so let me ask another question. If I wanted the "bad as$" gun in the game: DE or SOCOM? For instance right now to have a "bad as$" I would use the DE. The friggen thing is almost the size of an MP5 and kicks hard!

MilkMan_Dan
23rd Dec 2001, 10:31 PM
SOCOM, I think cud they look so cool. Plus it is supressed

the real pacman
23rd Dec 2001, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Bullzeye
The .357 mag has more power because of the fact that it is a smaller bullet and has more powder... But smaller bullet equalls less stopping power... and it has more recoil than the .45

The .45 ACP is all about stopping power... .45 FMJ can knock the living $hit out of someone and with a lot more structaral damage. If you want to stop 'em in their tracks with one shot, go with the .45 anytime... Personally, I don't think the SOCOM should be introduced until the team fine tunes the ballistics system. This whole, two shots yer dead no matter what Idea has got to go. At close range, a .45'll drop your ass with one shot. Any Viet Nam vets in this who saw combat should be able to confirm.

I'm sure some ignorant prick will flame me now... :rolleyes:

But yourea stupid persin why wuld we care about you'r eappinion??

Dupre
23rd Dec 2001, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by The_Fur
If you go up against anything whatever penetrates the best wins, that is why 9mm is about the worlds most standard ammunition and .45 is not.

And as GF said, 1 shot hardly ever drops a suspect, you want something that carries as much rounds as possible... another reason to opt for anything but .45

True, but there is also a trend starting for the .40 - the compromise between power and capacity. The kick of the .40 is more than the 9mm but the penetration is much greater. That's why the USP .40 F/S is on my shopping list.

ShakKen
23rd Dec 2001, 11:17 PM
.357 has the best overall street record of any handgun round(read: most effective).

LoTekK
23rd Dec 2001, 11:35 PM
while the .357 is the most effective street round, as shak's already pointed out, i'd personally go for a .40SW if and when i get a handgun (although seeing as i reside in washington, dc, that's not really an option right now... :con: )

of course, that's after i get used to the recoil of the sucka... :p i'll shoot a 9mm and a .45 just fine, but put a .40SW in my hands and i get markedly larger groupings... :con:

Sebu_NZ
24th Dec 2001, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by ShrapNL
What about a flame now :) ?

...Its an SKS ! :D

No! I have fired FAMASs MP5s SKS AK-47.

Anyone idoit can tell its a AKM-SKS-74-OC14 with a polymer AKM stock!


DJ Out.

jaunty
24th Dec 2001, 01:50 AM
You should try a .357sig, LoTekk.

It's recoil is halfway between 9mm and .40S&W, very effective round.

Gryphon
24th Dec 2001, 08:52 AM
No yuor stupid its a SKS Drugsanov Model 16CQB Super High Velosity Death Killer Rifle. I know this cuz I am a 1337 army seal special forses comanddo!!!!!!11

If I had my choice in a gunfight, I would probably take the .45 ACP simply because it's rimless. That usually means autoloaders, which can be reloaded faster than a revolver and typically hold more rounds. I also find the .45 recoils less than the .357.

The_Fur
24th Dec 2001, 09:03 AM
pfft... handguns... I'd take my T90 any day of the week.

Technophile
24th Dec 2001, 05:22 PM
Well I just picked up a Glock 33 for my concealed handgun license. It is chambered in .357 Sig and the recoil isn't bad at all. It is loud as hell though. I sure wouldn't want to have to shoot the sucker without hearing protection!

striderteen
24th Dec 2001, 06:48 PM
The 10mm round (also called .40 long) is also quite powerful; it's a magnum class round, IIRC.

ShakKen
25th Dec 2001, 12:02 AM
Technophile: A word of advice, don't use old brass in that thing. Ever.

Gryphon
25th Dec 2001, 12:05 AM
My .32 ACP has a LOT of bark in it. It stunned me (and my friends) the first time I shot it. After that I made a mental note to bring more than one set of earmuffs next time.

Dreamsphere
25th Dec 2001, 03:52 AM
I forgot who said it but the .45 does have a lot more stopping power. The powder factor does play a role (compare a pissy .22 to the .223 even though there is only a slight fraction in bullet size) but the overall weight of the bullet (grain) is what determins how many pieces of brain will fly out the other side. If i had to pick between the .45 round and the .357 for fighting people I would have to go with the .45 I'm sorry though, as I don't know which has more recoil.

Technophile
25th Dec 2001, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by ShakKen
Technophile: A word of advice, don't use old brass in that thing. Ever.

I assume you are talking about the infamous kB! incidents? I thought that was only supposed to happen in .40?

I don't reload anyway so using old brass won't be a problem. Now if I could only find some .357Sig +++P+++!

:D

C.Chan
25th Dec 2001, 01:55 PM
i say you save money and just throw rocks!

Technophile
25th Dec 2001, 02:18 PM
Rocks don't seem to be working too well for the Palestinians.

Dupre
25th Dec 2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Dreamsphere
I forgot who said it but the .45 does have a lot more stopping power. The powder factor does play a role (compare a pissy .22 to the .223 even though there is only a slight fraction in bullet size) but the overall weight of the bullet (grain) is what determins how many pieces of brain will fly out the other side. If i had to pick between the .45 round and the .357 for fighting people I would have to go with the .45 I'm sorry though, as I don't know which has more recoil.

You pick whatever you're comfortable firing with. It does you no good to carry the heaviest caliber around when you can't hit the guy with it. I've fired the .45 with an old pre-WWII 1911, and it kicked all over the place. I'm sure with the newer model 1911 with its heavier weight will compensate some, but I love the feel of the USP and the way .40 shoots.

Goat Fucker
25th Dec 2001, 05:42 PM
This still going on?

When it comes to defencive calibers i have just one golden rule i go by, anything bigger than .32 will do the trick.

All thouse horrid .22 .25 .765 mouseguns are neigh useless, even if you do hit, you will be lucky if it penetrates skin, but from .32 special and up, you are ok armed...so what do i want to say with that? pick the caliber you are most compfordable with, just make sure its bigger than .32 special.

Technophile
25th Dec 2001, 07:48 PM
I would think caliber 765 would be pretty frigging impressive!!!

Imagine staring down the barrel of that bazooka!

Goat Fucker
25th Dec 2001, 08:22 PM
.7,65 is the caliber used in the Walther PPK amongs others, its a s<b></b>hit round, wont penetrate a skull or any other bone for that matter, and tissue damege is minimal, its more likely to bounce off youre target then actually sink into it, thats why its mockingly just called the 765.

Gryphon
25th Dec 2001, 11:52 PM
What the hell kind of BS is that, Goat? Won't penetrate a SKULL? Jesus Christ, I thought you smarter than that.

A 70 grain FMJ travelling at some 990 fps will not do any damage? Better tell that to several dozen European police and security forces who've been using the cartridge for the past several decades (not to mention the scores of Americans who carry Seecamps and the like for personal defense with Federal's 65 grain Hydra-Shok JHP at 950 fps).

LoTekK
26th Dec 2001, 01:22 AM
jaunty: yeah, i've heard some good stuff about the .357sig, though i haven't really read much on it (especially since it doesn't seem to be that popular, as far as i can tell from the few gun ranges i've been to)... i'll still probably stick with the .40SW (again, if i'm able to move to virginia sometime soon), coz i'm starting to get used to the recoil...

as for the .45, the most experience i've had with that round is with a 1911, and while i liked the kick (or shove, i'd call it), the damned brass was flying all over the place in almost random directions (half my brass ended up in the next lane, hitting the woman firing there... :con: )

Iceman
26th Dec 2001, 06:41 AM
We have a .357 Magnum revolver. Everytime I shoot it almost flies out of my hand. It really does kick like a 'mo
Damn man....how much does your gun weigh? 5 grams? i never found the .357 Mag recoil too bad, that was in a Ruger Red hawk.

As for the 9mm .45acp etc thing. I'd got for the .40S&M everytime...LONG LIVE THE Glock 22 ;) .

Iceman.

nofun
26th Dec 2001, 07:12 AM
357 mag is more powerfull & veloce than 45 acp, the damage vary with the kind of bullet : Full Metal Jacket (military type) Hollow Point (more potent stopping power).
The choice is for the kind of gun : 357 is generaly revolver (6 shots), the longer the barrel the more powerfull (distance + accuracy - less recoil) except for the Desert Eagle which has its weight & encumbrence (but less recoil than revolver)
45 acp is conceived for automatics (7 + shots) and has less recoil than 357 (double tap is possible & efficient, just try it with a 357..), a silencer is also possible cos the bullets are subsonic.;)
Me think the one being hit in the chest without bulletproof vest might not really do the difference:( (hope i'll never have to test)

ShakKen
26th Dec 2001, 09:38 AM
Technophile: The problem seems to be most prolific in .40S&W Glocks, but many guns including 1911s have been known to KB.

For example the P7(probably the last REAL autopistol HK has made.), has a fluted chamber and it's not all that uncommon for weakened(read:soft) brass to get stuck in there(Ironic, since the fluting is supposed to aid extraction).

As a rule, don't shoot reloads, and of you do, make sure you read up on the life expentency of the brass, noting in particular the batch and the expansion of the brass.

Gryphon
26th Dec 2001, 11:12 AM
The .357 Magnum can kick hard depending on the gun and the load you use. For general target shooting I buy Federal's American Eagle brand 158 grain JSP. The box is marked "HIGH VELOCITY". When I light these things up, they throw a fireball about fifteen inches long out the barrel of my 6" Taurus. You can NOT double-tap with these loads! :eek:

Goat Fucker
26th Dec 2001, 03:46 PM
Gryph, i have seen a 7,65 fired from a PPK bounce off a mans skull, this happened the 18'th may 93 at a riot, back when the danish police still used that horrid mouse-gun.

The projectile entered on the right side of his head, in line with his eyes, and all it did was break trough the skin, and slide beneath the skin and placed itself right over the cheek bone, it diddent even hurt any flesh in there, it just lifted his skin.

I have allso met a guy who got shot in the chest by the PPK, and talked to his freinds who where there to confirmed what he said, the projectile passed between his two buttom rib's and the left side, but stopped before it ever reached the lungs, it only got 6 cm into him, and caused minor damege, he was released from hospital the same night and has never had problems since.

I have visual real life confirmation of this, what do you have to back you up?

From what i have seen myself, and even from what i hear from others (both Autonome who has been shot, but allso police who has fired it), the 7,65 is a horrid round no matter what you shoot it trough, the only reason european lawinforcement uses it is because the governments arent willing to spend any more money on something propper.

I feel quite confident telling people to avoid that round like the plague.

jaunty
26th Dec 2001, 07:06 PM
Hang on... This is the same Goat F<u></u>ucker who has a detish for the PPSh-41-2, right? :p

Goat Fucker
26th Dec 2001, 07:28 PM
7,65 and the necked 7,62x25 are different worlds mate, one kills stuff, the other just bounces off stuff.

Do NOT get thouse two rounds confused.

Zundfolge
26th Dec 2001, 08:41 PM
Just to translate for those of you who don't know, the 7.65mm that Goatfu<b></b>cker is talking about is basicaly .32acp.

this is a gun that fires a .32acp

http://www.kel-tec.com/prod024.jpg
Kel-Tec P32

awwww aint it cute :)

While I don't doubt that there are several instances where a .32 has just "bounced off" of someone I still am not going to volunteer to stand in front of one ;)

Gryphon
26th Dec 2001, 08:44 PM
Right, Goat. First off, you'll pardon me if I doubt the veracity of your claims since it doesn't sound typical of a police force to issue lethal force weapons during a riot. If anything, they go through fairly great pains to make sure that NO ONE is issued live ammunition. See the ruckus caused by what happened earlier this year in Genoa? Rubber and plastic bullets, beanbag rounds, OC and mace, sure. Live ammo? I seriously doubt it. Did you see the bullet removed from this man and confirm it was a full-power FMJ? Second instance, what was the guy wearing when he was shot? How far away was he? What kind of physical condition was he in?

You're basing your opinions on two instances which really you know nothing about. Fact is, a .32 ACP has the same velocity as a .22 LR but weighs twice as much. Is it as effective as a 9mm or .45? Obviously not. Claiming it merely bounces off skulls however is tantamount to saying a Glock is invisible to X-rays. Now, the skull is one of the thickest pieces of bone in the human body. If the angle of entry was extremely shallow, say ten to fifteen degrees, the bullet could enter the skin, deflect off the skull, and bury itself in the flesh as you described. But guess what? That can happen with most any round nose bullet, and it has most notably with .38 Specials and some 9mm.

Here's a photo for you of a .32 ACP Glaser Safety Slug in ballistic gelatin:

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/glaser.jpg

That looks like over 6 inches of penetration to me. Here's some pics of other rounds fired into gelatin: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm Some are poor performers, but to claim they'd bounce off bone is silly (especially since most penetrated up to 14 inches AFTER penetrating two layers of denim). Take a gander at the Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, and Silvertips.

So you ask what I have to back me up? Well in truth, not a lot. Just over a decade of personal firearms experience and verified scientific data from noted authorities in the field. Since you're so confident of the .32's complete lack of power, would you be willing to let me shoot you with my Sauer 38H from 25 yards? According to you it would bounce right off. Nah, tell ya what. Next time I go to the range I'll take my Sauer with me (once I get the broken trigger spring replaced) and do some penetration tests against various targets, and film the episode for you. Sound good?

Goat Fucker
26th Dec 2001, 08:54 PM
I wouldent either ZŁndy, my point is that i wouldent want to trust my life with that little firecracker either.

If youre going to pull a gun, you better be ready to fire it, but you would be wise to choose one that has a just decent chance of stopping youre opposition aswell.

EDIT. Instaposted me there Griffo.

The Danish police does not use any other none lethal means of crowd controll other than teargas, for everything else, theres live ammo, there is no middle ground.

And you want to know the really fun part? the PPK was recently discontinued in favour of the USP, and can you guess what the standard ammo type is? (read as: only ammo type they are issued with), hollowpoints of some descretion (we arent allowed to know precisely what, other than its hollowpoint), up untill then, the PPK was ONLY issued with FMJ's, no odd ammo.

The danish police knows only one thing when it comes to riots, beat what ever is easy to catch, and shoot to kill.

Go have a look around for the 18'th may 93, in Denmark ofcourse, you should be able to find multiple danish news articles, and if youre lucky, and english translation...that would require some hefty luck though, it was the first big shootout between rioteers and the police in modern history, meny where shot, only one of them in the leg, the rest where hit at center mass, no-one was killed (PPK's being the only weapons at the scene...thats a very poor street record right there).

Im not really claiming the 7,65 cant kill, that is an exageration, given, but what i am saying is that i have seen it fail countless times on one night...i would not trust that round to save my life, and i wouldent advice anyone else to do it either.

Zundfolge
26th Dec 2001, 09:13 PM
I can see your point of wanting to carry more fire power then a .32 (frankly I feel much better carrying my .40 then I would a .32).

However a .32 in the pocket is more powerful then a .357mag at home in the gun safe ;)

Also, if I remember the FBI statistics correctly, the most common handgun cartridge used in homicides in the US is the .22lr (apparently it has been for many years).

There's a lot of rounds I'd rather carry then a .32 (for the size and price I would carry a Makarov in 9x18mm).

Gryphon
27th Dec 2001, 12:57 PM
Well then I definitely agree with both of you on that point. The .32 ACP would not be my first defense choice either. Unless it was in a Czech Skorpion machine pistol, in which case I'm sure the volley of lead would make up for the lack of stopping power. ;)

phatcat
27th Dec 2001, 02:16 PM
about that Skorpion machine pistol. From the pictures I have seen that thing looks ity-bity. how dose that thing kick? I only have a picture of it in a book, and I was judging from the grip

The_Fur
27th Dec 2001, 02:28 PM
The barrel of a snub nose .38 police special is probably longer then that thing... no wonder it's accuracy sucks

Dupre
28th Dec 2001, 02:35 AM
Or just carry one of these around.

http://www.smokinggunfx.com/spacekat.htm

jaunty
28th Dec 2001, 06:32 AM
I still stand by the .357sig as a defence round.

It outperformed the .40S&W in FBI handgun trials in 1996, being beaten in only 1 of 8 tests. (source (http://www.gunnery.net/sig/fbitests.html))

It travels at pretty high velocity, and from what I can tell, the makers are more concerned with penetration than expansion or cavitation. It's sort of like a slower 5.7mm without the AP properties. As most people agree, having a hole either side of the target is more importatnt than having a big hole that only goes 5cm into the flesh. (FBI says so) (http://www.cellnine.com/pender/web/ammo/fbiwound.html#tac)

Arm yourself with a Glock33 or Sig-Sauer P239 in .357sig, and I assure you, you have every reason to feel safe.

Gryphon
28th Dec 2001, 08:20 AM
The recoil on the Skorpion is fairly light, due to its remarkably low rate of fire (and mousy cartridge). In fact, the Skorpion is viewed by most as the forerunner to the modern PDW.

And $1400 for a f*cking UPPER? I'm sorry, but that is BS. I can probably buy a 7.5" upper from a bottom-feeder in the States (some lower-quality dealers of AR parts are referred to as "bottom feeders") for $400 WITH a bolt and carrier. Even with the exchange rate and shipping that works out to about $700 Cdn. Half of what those clowns are asking for. I hate gun dealers that gouge the Canadian market. :mad: