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View Full Version : RA v2, concerning possible RC-50 removal?


St0rmcaller
18th Dec 2001, 10:33 PM
Please, do not vote if you don't play RA!

I had played for about two hours total today. Everyone seemed veritably happy with the mutie, and there was only one complaint:

That God-damned robar. I'm posting a damn poll on this, just to see if tonight was a fluke. But I've never seen more people bitch about it before in my INF-life. :D Seemed to me majority of folks just want it gone.

Personally, I despise it, and the way it currently functions, and not to mention it's lack of use as a service weapon. At least the PSG-1, although not being a service weapon, represents the more common service sniper rifles. However, I have never felt like the folks on the server tonight. My problem is no longer with scopes considering the changes RA have made. So, my question is this:

Will getting rid of the RC-50 entirely heighten the gameplay atmosphere?

Guardian_BOB
18th Dec 2001, 11:30 PM
But I've never seen more people bitch about it before in my INF-life.
What is the nature of the bitching ? Too accurate ? Use on smaller maps? I didn't notice anyone complaining last week when I was on. I don't use it myself but did see 5 out of 8 on a map had it as their loadout :confused: too many folks using it, turning it into a very long sniper war ? If thats the case then perhaps change RA so that no more than 2 players on a team can carry an RC50.

I'll vote 'no' for now and retain the right to change it later :D

Slay Ya Later Guardian_Bob.

Scuddie
19th Dec 2001, 12:07 AM
Nah, the problem isnt the robar, it's the lamers abusing it's power. If you implemented location based damage, this problem would end. Robar whores give the occasional snipers (like me) a bad name. Robar use on CQB maps does need to be banned, IMO.

DeMachina
19th Dec 2001, 12:31 AM
Thinking about it, I voted yes.
For a while now (when I play on AFA#2), I begin to use the psg-1. I never though of using it before since the advantage teh robar had on it was too high. But now, with RA, I almost never use it (unless I get kill too often by one).
And as long as they dont implement better location damage, it should probably remove. I know that while I used it, I've done too much cheap 1-shot-foot-kill.

Or reduce it's damage to 95 , but that could get a little unrealistic since a shot in the torso should kill you with the robar...

Anyway you could test it and see how people react to it...

The_Fur
19th Dec 2001, 01:00 AM
there is no use for the robar at the ranges we have in inf and hipshooting in CQB... don't even get me started.

erehwoN
19th Dec 2001, 02:08 AM
I agree. The robar is used too much where it shouldn't be. I hate coming around a corner in Kazakhstan and being blasted by a robar. There are suitable replacements for it imho.

V---------->Vote---------->Kick---------->Robar

W.R
19th Dec 2001, 02:20 AM
I can take out a lot more people a lot faster with the PSG-1 then with the RC-50. RC-50 is to slow and you cant correct if you miss.
I say keep it

DamienW
19th Dec 2001, 02:30 AM
Sure, the Robar isn't correctly modeled yet, and is seen in places where it shouldn't be used .... However, INF has currently no one-shot-kill scoped rifle yet, so i say keep it .... Anyway, by definition, i really don't see why people need to say that a given weapon is bad .... RAv2 and AFA just showed us that in fact, what counts is the people who play.... Not the weapons ... Period.
And i almost exclusvely play on RA servers :D

The_Fur
19th Dec 2001, 02:31 AM
that is not the point, the fact that it's not realistic is.

DamienW
19th Dec 2001, 02:37 AM
:rolleyes:

Ah, good'ol The_Fur....
I DO know it's not realistic, and i wouldn't even bother posting here if it was the question .... The question Storm asked was "will it change the gameplay atmosphere", to what i answered "No" .... There are still more 'unrealistic' things in INF, so i say let the team handle them, and have RA stay in its limits, i.e. tweak and change values for an enhanced gameplay (which it is very good at, if you ask me) .....

asmodeus
19th Dec 2001, 02:46 AM
make the thing not shootable from the hip or even standing

DamienW
19th Dec 2001, 03:03 AM
Now that's a good idea, ASMO ... Much better in my opinion than to remove the thing ... And it fits in the RA spirit, in my mind ... Therefore, i :tup: and ask for a "processed Yurch style" sticker... :D

The_Fur
19th Dec 2001, 03:34 AM
either make it realistic or remove it, either way would be fine with me. Personally i think it simply doesn't belong in inf. .50cal rifles don't belong in a game where the max range rarely exeeds 200m.

Tiran Kenja
19th Dec 2001, 03:39 AM
*LOL*

Ahhh finally a sign that the INF players are getting with the program...

Whenever there is nothing real to complain about. People starts complaining about snipers in some form or another ;)

Tiran Kenja
19th Dec 2001, 03:51 AM
EDIT:
Stupid forum didn't seem to respond. SO I got the post off a couple of times :/

Tiran Kenja
19th Dec 2001, 03:59 AM
EDIT:
Stupid forum didn't seem to respond. SO I got the post off a couple of times :/

jlamb_vo
19th Dec 2001, 04:22 AM
I was very torn up about this (well, as torn up as you can be over the presence of a fake weapon in a video game :D ) but in the spirit of how the game has been developed I think it would be much more appropriate to work on how the gun functions in the game.

If it were removed on a strictly short-term interim bases until a better solution was coded (many many excellent and valid suggestions have been introduced to make all sharpshooting harder) I would consider that, but the way it is worded I cannot support it fully.

Make the thing realistically difficult to handle. There are some maps, and they will continue to emerge, where such a rifle may have a place. I don' t know about all its practical applications in real life, I've heard things here and there, but a gun like this may be applicable when we are dealing with armor, vehicles, fortified positions etc becuase of its penetration more than anything.

Increase the zoom, add weapon inertia, gravity, at least limited area damage, ballistics (go Yurch go) increase twitch and wobble when leaning and standing, or in the case of the robar even crouching, prohibitively difficult, and tighten the overall FOV of the game, and many of these issues may go away.

There its that simple! :D

The only times I have been really annoyed by the robar online is on that damn sniper hill the reds have on EP, but that has more to do with the hitbox problems. Also, the fact that they can lean out while prone and shoot it makes it all the harder to hit.

There has been an argument that being 'killed' in these games really represents being knocked out of action not necessarily killed... and that a robar shot into your leg could pretty much tear off the limb and render you pretty useless... but then its just something I heard ;)

Anyawy short of it is: I would rather see a weapon thats been in since version 1.5 or something in Unreal 1 STAY and BE ALTERED than have it thrown out for a long term... but if none of these effects can be implemented any time soon it may help as a very short term solution.

[121st]Burton
19th Dec 2001, 04:43 AM
A long time ago (when 2.85.3 was still new) I suggested several things to balance out the Robar. e.g. no sniping while leaning, if you are standing while leaning the weapon wobble gets really bad after a short time of aiming and some things similar the RA mutator does.

The team said: No...it would be bad for gameplay and is unrealistic.

I am NOT for taking it out. I am for balancing it in a realistic way.

FunkyShyte
19th Dec 2001, 07:52 AM
ra may fix a lot, but sniping with a 14 kg uber rifle still should require far more skill.

1) the difficulty of holding the rifle steady in different positions needs to be "realistified". while prone, there shouldnt be much trouble aiming the robar accurately even with a smg on your back, OTOH while prone turning it to a significantly different angle ( > 20 maybe, but assymetrically dependign on handedness) would require you to "hip" it or temporarly lose eye alignment (scope goes paritally black) because you have to lift up your left ellbow. (and reposition your upper torso a bit in general).
unless of course you are in a entrenched sniping position which would take about 5-30 minutes to set up depending on the ground and terrain where you would not be able to turn more than your position allows that easily at all.. ;))
2) keeping the robar on point while moving, even crouched, should be near impossible.
3) no robar hipshooting (or make it possible but drop the weapon 3 m behind the player after the shot *G*).
4) as long as there is no way (or noone has the time to implement it) to realize a mechanism where the code detects corners you actually can use (press the rifle into them with your holding hand etc using the shaft of the rifle as a stabilizer while "hanging" on to it into the corner, thats how we were taught to do it ) i would suggest this:
leaning should make a big difference in aiming the rifle (maybe even make you flip over if you lean out to far *rofl*). while balancing your weight out on one foot you have to constantly compensate with small body movements to maintain balance, the more you lean the harder it is (try it) and having 14kg in your hands strechted out wont make this any better. a certain wobble effect would make the "you might see my shoulder while i point-and-click you dead" effect go away (this one personally annoys me the most, as it does not require ppl to actually have a good sniping position but do that around essentially any corner).
4) carrying any other AR/SMG (and the stupid backpack, rofl) should make all off the above even more difficult.
5) weapon inertia weapon inertia weapon inertia weapon inertia

just my .02 c. i hope i made sense. all of the above is pure theory, i never actually had any rifle in my hands larger than a german G3. MGs dont count, althought they are heavier the handling is a whole different story.

btw fur, i still think i could *walk around* pretty well with a robar + smg ;)

preparing to be flamed..

Bullzeye
19th Dec 2001, 08:02 AM
I think we need a Remington 700 (M40)
It=better gun...
Replace the PSG1 with the MSG90 also...:D

XxXdapiXxX
19th Dec 2001, 09:53 AM
noooo not my favorite gun :)
the only fun in INF sometimes is picking up a robar and rushing
most of the time you die
but i still once in a while get a kill
and thats makes it worth while
Getting rid of that would be horrible
You guys suggest bringing a pistol with robar loads
but what if you suck with pistols
hip-shooting with robars is fine
you have a lot less aim and it takes a while to get another shot out
Its fine the way it is :)

spm1138
19th Dec 2001, 12:29 PM
An M-40 (or other remington 700 action rifle) would be cool. Or what about that new British rifle? That 7.62 AI?

Stormcaller, I know what you mean. Don't know if it's the weather or what, but everyone (me included - edit: OK. Not literally everyone. Any statement involving the word "everyone" has to be, by definition a gross overgeneralisation, though :D ) seemed really PO'd about the RC-50 for one reason or another last time I played.

Personally, I'd be very happy to see it gone from AFA2.

XxXdapiXxX
19th Dec 2001, 12:38 PM
people saying that the robar is used wrong
couldn't i say the same about how you are using your m16
so i think its more opinion than what it actually is

Chow Yun-Fat
19th Dec 2001, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by asmodeus
make the thing not shootable from the hip or even standing

How about when someone fires the robar from hip it launches behind them and out of their hands because of the recoil? That'd be amusing to see.

The_Fur
19th Dec 2001, 02:28 PM
and it should take their trigger finger with it leaving them helpless against anybody with any sort of weapon.

asmodeus
19th Dec 2001, 02:30 PM
no gibs dammit!:)

"Sp!ke"
19th Dec 2001, 02:54 PM
Dont remove it, just make it impossible to use on small maps and remove hip shooting, just disable the trigger when at hip.

And a perhaps extreme suggestion; Force full zooom alll thheee time. So it will be impossible to run around looking through the scope while being fully out zoomed. Or even better make it impossible to run while holding it in your hands...

striderteen
19th Dec 2001, 03:02 PM
I'd rather have the M-82 SASR than the Robar, because it looks cooler, is semi-automatic, and has a highly effective recoil absorber system.

However, you should be able to fire .50-caliber sniper rifles ONLY from the prone position.

Scuddie
19th Dec 2001, 03:15 PM
well, how I see it, the only way you can shoot off a gun of that power is to be in crouch position. What Chow Yun-Fat said about recoil with hipshooting comes to mind. If shot from the hip, the aim of the gun should be WAY off, after being shot, and also the player would rotate slightly to the right. If you shoot while standing, the gun might (variable) knock you back a couple inches, and slightly distort your aim. Firing the weapon while prone might make minor problems, which cannot be done in the engine limitations of UT. Anyway, crouch position is the only surefire way of sustaining recoil IMHO.

Snake13
19th Dec 2001, 03:41 PM
Well here's a cool solution, but its not very realistic.

You could make the Robar a "m40" just lower the damage to that of 7.62, and those of us with good imaginations can imagine we are using the m40.

It might not look right but we'd finally have a bolt-action 7.62

FiringAimlessly
19th Dec 2001, 04:09 PM
I'd rather see it gone than impose on it some of the more outlandish restrictions I've seen on this thread. :con:

Without weapon drop/inertia it's impossible to portray with any convincing realism the difficulty in using such a heavy rifle.

ecale3
19th Dec 2001, 06:41 PM
I like the PSG and have killed people with the robar with it; in the time it takes them to fire one shot i can fire three or four. But the robar's bolt should be manually operated, i think Cyanide Triscuit has a mutator that does this. The Robar user should have to push his reload button after he fires. That may limit it's abuse.

NTKB
19th Dec 2001, 06:48 PM
I exclusively play on RA when I play INF and I am tired of playing nice long range fighting maps like Vietnam and some turd brings an RC50 and nails me. I like long range gun fights with assault weapons. I dont want to have to get in close to kill all the ppl using RC50s when these kinds of maps come up. Robar from the hip I have no problem with. Its realistic. But goddamn if the Robar should be limited to one person on big maps...

Stormcaller please disregard 20% of the "No" votes since these are probobly lamers who hate RA and never play on AFA.

You know damn well I am an AFA whore. :D

St0rmcaller
19th Dec 2001, 10:01 PM
Yes indeed. I know it well. :)

Now will you please get the **** off my server to let me in?! :D

asmodeus
19th Dec 2001, 10:03 PM
you donT, want to start a war against us mister:D

RAZZ
20th Dec 2001, 12:46 AM
I say no removing of the robar.
for the trouble it takes to redo ra and take it out, you could toss in a few changes and make it more paltable to its targets.

yurch
20th Dec 2001, 01:16 AM
They way I have it set up, removing the robar would take me 20 seconds. But I am always hesatant to remove anything.
Very interesting thread, storm, and I appreciate all the input.

Storm's seen me use a Robar before in relics - theres something wrong when I beat Storm to the punch (shoot his ass first) 3 out of 4 times in a map that routinely gets my ass handed to me because of my 7 fps.

I don't see how inertia is very realistic - I never have held a weapon that continued to move notably as I turned...

Shooting prone or crouched only is all good, but then you are relying on the overall crapiness of the current prone to kill the robar - and half the 'whorage' of the robar occurs from prone anyway (EP).

I personally think its target aquisition thats too easy with the thing. I can aim it, then bang. I remember in RL when firing from a scope, it was quite possible to "lose" your target when looking through the scope, because all you could see is grass or sky with a slight bump of the rifle.
That hasn't happened to me yet in inf.
The FOV is definantly too large.
Players could not prone on EP and scan the entire road, only to zoom in on hapless targets. Scanning would be too hard - thats why snipers have spotters IRL.
Zooming should be slowed too, as I remember. That and a trigger delay after changing the zoom. I miss the 2.75 method of zooming.
Players using it in CQB should literally see nothing but a bigol' blurb.

Only 2 ways I can think of doing this - increasing the zoom, or attempting to mess with that black circle (no sucess with that yet)
Increasing the zoom would increase the apparency of that horrid
'grid effect'(maybe I should give robar a nonstandard sensitvity?) but it might be a good fix.

Keganator
20th Dec 2001, 01:22 AM
INCREASE ZOOM, YURCH! INCREASE IT!!!

RAZZ
20th Dec 2001, 01:34 AM
I dont think of inertia as the gun continuing to travel after I stop.
sounds more like hesitancy for the gun to be moved in the first place ;)

ex: you point, it follows shortly after

along with the zoom, put in a time delay shake/blur/whatever for when you switch to scope.
(getting a good shot irl takes time, use this to force that issue)

you gotta add something to the hip position. keep them from using it like a shotgun.

jlamb_vo
20th Dec 2001, 02:00 AM
Inertia: yes I see a big part of it being that it takes time to move it from a stop as well. And no a gun does't continue to move becuase you are exerting effort to control its movement in real life, right now these guns may as well be made out of paper mache. Since it would basically be adding momentum to the gun which would be directely related to the speed its moving at, it would only be a factor when making sweeping movements, which would simply have to be countered by a minor mouse movement back in the opposite direction. Just another element to target aquisition.

Also, the other use of inertia mentioned was that it could help overcome the grid effect... by giving the mouse a little nudge you would essentially start the gun rolling over a little, so if you are taking time and making a careful, precise shot, you would be able to overcome this effect.

I also mentioned earlier that it seems that the input as it is now is instantaneously tranlsated directly into the position of the gun, ie each notch the mouse moves equals one notch the view moves. I was wondering if this could be replaced by matching the movement of the camera with the speed of the mouse movement rather than its its position... does this make sense? I imagine this creating a continuous movement rather than a 'stepped' one.

Last note(s), I am not offending by being hipshot by an RC50, it really requires quite a bit of luck and lack of awareness on the other persons end, I think it would have been much easier to die at the hands of an SMG personally. And yes a lot of the RC whoring has taken place from a proned position anyway, although one major factor in this (especially on that bitch hill spot on EP) is that you can lean while prone, leaving yourself almost completely obscured and still able to fire from what I imaging would be an extremely awkard position.

I say change the robar, remove it until then if you want, but not permenantly.

Hell, I wouldn't even miss the thing because I never touch it any more so do what you will, I will probably just see the guy who killed me more often :) But I might if sniping were actually made into some sort of challenge again... and when it actually becomes tactically useful...

erehwoN
20th Dec 2001, 03:05 AM
Okay, if you aren't going to remove it (which is okay with me) I think that there should be a delay when shouldering it. Like the prone hopping of 2.85. The Team fixed that with 2.86. Make the robar similar to that. Also, increase the zoom to where you can only see a single target and it would be easy to lose them. Yurch, I don't know if you could do it, but could you slow down the aiming animation to about 1.5 seconds, maybe longer? Make it sort of similar to lag. Oh well, whatever you decide to do, it isn't going to keep me off AFA.:)

FunkyShyte
20th Dec 2001, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by yurch
I don't see how inertia is very realistic - I never have held a weapon that continued to move notably as I turned...
I personally think its target aquisition thats too easy with the thing
what i would expect from weapon inertia:
an effect that makes the point-and-click feel go away. of course your rifle wont continue moving on its own. that would be lame and very hard to bring on point. and unrealistic.
as i understand it it means that your view will just have to zero itself (automatically in the game) after turning significantly. you just cant bring the rifle from 20/s to 0 and perfectly on point in less then 1/4 second.
something that makes the aiming progress less instant.

less instakilling. that would be great. *G*

FunkyShyte
20th Dec 2001, 08:48 AM
im totally with razz, jlamb, erewon :=)

Snake13
20th Dec 2001, 01:04 PM
what about my idea of making like 7.62?

Olethros
20th Dec 2001, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Snake13
what about my idea of making like 7.62?
It's an interesting idea that shouldn't take me more than half an hour; implementing lower damage (equal to PSG) and fixed scope zoom (slightly higher than PSG) while slicing the bulk quite noticeably would make it nearly like the M40.

Maybe we should post a new poll: "Do you want Olethros to neglect work and christmas shopping to develop a really unrealistic mutator to make the RC50 behave like the M40?" :D

NTKB
20th Dec 2001, 05:07 PM
I am all for any adjustments that would allow for more firefights with assault weapons at long range maps instead of the usual "Oh its Vietnam. Break out the RC50s" type of BS.

Keganator
20th Dec 2001, 05:12 PM
Two things: 1) No 'steadying' the RC50 when zooming. 2) Zooming should be A LOT slower.

Gotta go to lunch now. Having chineese bought for me!

DarkSniper
20th Dec 2001, 06:06 PM
Storm please do not force me to use my knife by removal of the robar. I primarily use an M16 (no m203, or acog) but on occasion I enjoy the robar. It is difficult to make any shots other than though out controled ones on the server. I see no need to remove it.

ecale3
20th Dec 2001, 06:36 PM
Increase the zoom Yurch. Do it.i think i wass the one who suggested that the zoom of all scopes be increased.

FunkyShyte
21st Dec 2001, 07:46 AM
a bit late but roflmao nevertheless!


__________________
Spunky

"...Recently announced Itanium-plated armor vests will reportedly melt the bullet before it ever comes into contact with the material..."

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NTKB
21st Dec 2001, 09:14 AM
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