Getting "stuck" in the Unreal world?

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Ðork

Dork online, since '99
Jun 19, 2001
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Quick version:

Should Unreal Single Player Mappers ensure that it is impossible to get "stuck"?


Long version (for those who read more than 15 words in any post ;) ):

My definition of stuck (in a game) is where you have got to a situation (without cheating or weapon jumping) which is not dangerous, but from which it is impossible to progress in the game.

example 1: far into a game, you are in a store room with large indestructible crates, jumping around on top of them to explore. Behind two of them, diagonally across a corner, is a suspicous darkness just right for a hidden passage/removed drainage cover/etc. So you jump down, only to find that there is no passage etc., and you can't jump back up or move the crates = Game Over!

example 2: in a house in a village you discover that by pushing a vase outside you can jump onto a wall which is otherwise too high, and drop down the other side. There you discover that the backs of houses are a bit less detailed than usual, and no doors open etc. No way to jump back onto the wall = Game Over!

I hope you know what I mean. I suspect that most gamers would find this unacceptable (except those who habitually use quicksave and cheats if they haven't obviously got anywhere within a minute). But it is completely realistic.

In the real world, if you are somewhere you don't know and explore recklessly you are very likely to get stuck, except sooner or later someone else will turn up to "help". If you are somewhere that no-one will turn up (like most game situations) you stay there = Game Over!
faintthud.gif


I imagine that preventing such places is a lot of tedious work for a mapper. However, I am not aware of any such situation in the whole of Unreal"1", so they must've done that work. But should they have?

Should the mapper spend time on this, rather than creative work, or is it up to the player to think "if I go there I could get stuck" and avoid it?


btw, some of you will have seen that I've posted this on other forums. They were tests because I'm never sure how much anyone understands what I write. The responses indicate that it makes sense. This forum is where I have the highest expectations for a serious discussion.
 

zynthetic

robot!
Aug 12, 2001
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Thats a simple part of design. It's hard to account for all points in a map if you're adding a lot of detail to it but that's still not an excuse. The map's meant to be played (if it's distributed) and should be designed so.
Then again walking into a place that clearly has no way out of it is almost the same as walking into a trap you're well aware of.
 

Mxtrmntr

(Formerly known as Mxtrmntr)
Nov 3, 2001
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Of course, a situation like this would in real life would mean "Game over", but I don't think this would be alright for a game. I mean, in a game, you should always have the possibility to go on in some way; depending on which game you play, you've got only one or sometimes also two ways to proceed (like in Unreal, Half-Life etc.) or more ways, like in Deus Ex etc. You have to be sure that you actually CAN proceed somewhere, getting stuck could cause a lot of confusion. Something like this could, under some circumstances, screw up a game, and it's an important part of designing a game to make sure something like that can't happen.

And places where there's obviously no way out are normally just some level design flaws, I think things like this are annoying. Of course, not being able to proceed can be realistic, but I don't think that's the kind of realism we want from a game :)
 

HbG

Evil Businessman
Let's see.. its possible for terralift to never become available due to some bug.. i got stuck somewhere else too but right now i cant remember where.. oh yes the eightball lava room has some loose bricks you can jump on em but never get anywhere without falling in the lava :)

but that's just stupid to do :)
 

Metakill

Inhumane
Feb 18, 2000
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Yeah, I've encountered a few bugs in Unreal I where triggers wouldn't reactivate effectively stopping my progress. At the beginning of Trench, I once dodged back before the ceiling collapsed and got stuck in front of the rocks and couldn't enter the tunnel.

In the real world, if you are somewhere you don't know and explore recklessly you are very likely to get stuck, except sooner or later someone else will turn up to "help".

Well, sometimes nobody comes along and you eventually starve to death or die of exposure. Shouldn't we put this into our FPSs?:) Or maybe scavenging pupae should come along if the player stays in one location too long.

Personally, I'd rather see more artistically done custom levels than making them all be spot-checked. If I do get stuck because of a design flaw, I think it's ok to do a fly or ghost to get out of it without being a cheater.
 

thechief7

Playmate
Oct 27, 2001
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It's the mappers responsibilty to make sure you don't get stuck anywhere in their map
That's why they have beta testers
 

NeoNite

Starsstream
Dec 10, 2000
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No. That's lame. It's the whole idea behind making a good map that you don't get stuck cause you're still playing a game;
And if I DO get stuck accidentally somewhere, I'll simply use my ghostmode :)
 

WildfireX

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Mar 10, 2001
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In a limited FPS world, it's a lot easier to get stuck. You can rarely climb walls, or make a rope out of vines, or whatever...

You should never get "stuck" in a map... the idea is for it to be fun. You want realism, go play Rainbow 6 :p.
 

Metakill

Inhumane
Feb 18, 2000
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I agree that DM matches should have no stuck-points, but I have played some very fun and well-designed SP levels that have had stuck-areas in them (including Unreal I itself). I guess my point is that I would rather have flawed custom maps than none at all. After all nobody's paying the makers of these maps for them.

But if the mapper is made aware of these spots they should make it their duty to correct them.