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lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 05:26 AM
should we legalize the sweet leaf?

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 05:33 AM
you mean canabis?
its not illegal to say it you know, or do you mean something else...

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 05:36 AM
yes cope, i mean pot/weed/mary jane/dope or whatever the hell you wanna call it :lol:

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 05:45 AM
im goin with a hell yeah then.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by mister_cope
im goin with a hell yeah then. good for you :lol:

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 06:03 AM
The fact that its illeagle while nicotine + alchohol are legal is ridiculous. There are many reasons why its less dangerous than both of those, and in fact has been shown to be a beneficial drug in some cases, but most importantly it is non addictive meaning that people can stop and start whenever they want, it harms noone but them ( if it harms them at all ) so preventing them from doing it or even punishing them for doing it is wrong.

Also, even if you deny this, legalising the use of cannabis wouldnt actually increase the usage and would free up great amounts of police time and prison space, as well as reducing the use of harder drugs by removing the gateways to drug dealers, so no matter how dangerous you believe it to be, there is no reason not to legalise it.

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
The fact that its illeagle while nicotine + alchohol are legal is ridiculous. There are many reasons why its less dangerous than both of those, and in fact has been shown to be a beneficial drug in some cases, but most importantly it is non addictive meaning that people can stop and start whenever they want, it harms noone but them ( if it harms them at all ) so preventing them from doing it or even punishing them for doing it is wrong.

Also, even if you deny this, legalising the use of cannabis wouldnt actually increase the usage and would free up great amounts of police time and prison space, as well as reducing the use of harder drugs by removing the gateways to drug dealers, so no matter how dangerous you believe it to be, there is no reason not to legalise it.


speaking of problesm clearing up... heroine. before it was made "illegal" in the uk, there was like, a handfull of addicts, couple of hundred tops. they could get pure clean heroine from doctors and stuff...
then the goverment decided to crack down on that sort of thing, and now, hundreds of thousands of peeps are hooked on heroine, laced with all kinds of nast stuff (which is that causes all or most of) the health problems...


do you see?

GMotha
18th Nov 2001, 06:08 AM
Some countries have allready legalized it...

The netherlands, good 'ol belgium...
It's only legal if it's purely for personnal use:)

No prob for me:)

Rabid Wolf
18th Nov 2001, 06:10 AM
but little good it did the netherlands...
now their players are so stoned that they can't even play soccer anymore... :p

GMotha
18th Nov 2001, 06:15 AM
It has it's disadvantages:)

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 06:16 AM
"Some countries have allready legalized it...

The netherlands, good 'ol belgium...
It's only legal if it's purely for personnal use

No prob for me"

Lucky you :D
What use other than personal use did they have in mind though?

By contrast to the common sense of europe, the US governement have banned any product that contains traces of THC that might be ingested...even if you would have to eat kilograms of it to get high...what are they on?:rolleyes:

GMotha
18th Nov 2001, 06:22 AM
Non-personnal use means dealing and stuff...
I don't get the idea of that eather, but anyway the governement moves in mysterious ways:p
I think they should legalize it everywhere, not like it's harmfull (at least as healthy as a sigaret, but tastier)...

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 06:24 AM
the idea is mothra ;) that you can smoke it, but you have to buy it from safe, legalised and licensed premises.


i think.


personally, i dont smoke, and dont want to smoke dope either, but i still think it should be legal in a world that allows tabacco and alchohol...

@kuma
18th Nov 2001, 07:07 AM
do you see?

Not really, criminalizing something doesnt generate an increase in demand for it... and decriminalizing drugs leads to Amsterdam which is not somewhere any one not dutch should be expected to live :)

Stilgar
18th Nov 2001, 07:30 AM
"but most importantly it is non addictive meaning that people can stop and start whenever they want, it harms noone but them ( if it harms them at all )" - Frostblood

according to a mate of mine who's currently a med student it is slightly addictive, physically, not mentally...

I'm drawn to the pov of some educationists that informing people about the objective benefits/negative effects of cannabis would hopefully lead to a society where people made the choice for themselves, instead of uninformed peeps giving in to peer presure or liking the drug for the rebellious/socially empowering connotations it currently has. I'm not saying those are reasons people smoke the stuff, just that they're some of the excuses people probably shouldn't use to justify the use of cannabis, because they do very little to further the cause of those trying to legalise pot.

Ulukai
18th Nov 2001, 08:16 AM
They should legalise it for registered sufferers of multiple sclerosis etc right sodding now. Hell, Doctors publicly tell patients suffering from said disease to try and get hold of some if they can.

Of course, there is a lot of left-wing politcal bull**** to wade through before that's ever gonna happen.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 08:46 AM
i think its so ****ing idiotic that you can buy cigs/alcohol/pain killers/etc but they wont legalize weed. it would be a lot safer and weaker if it was legalized. just look at moonshine(if any of ya know what that is) its a lot more dangerous and stronger than anything you can buy from a liquor store. im not saying all illegal drugs should be legalized cause some of them are really ****ing dangerous..........

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 08:49 AM
and no im not some pothead on a mission, ive been clean for going on 4 years :p

@kuma
18th Nov 2001, 08:53 AM
pot is a lame ****ing drug at the best of times. Why don't they legalize charlie & pills is what I want to know :p

Stilgar
18th Nov 2001, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by @kuma
pot is a lame ****ing drug at the best of times. Why don't they legalize charlie & pills is what I want to know :p

that all depends on who's smoking it..... lamer :)

@kuma
18th Nov 2001, 09:09 AM
The middle class rebels drug of choice


Smoking some fresh bud on a carribean beach, watching the sun come up = win

smoking some dirty 99% tar solid in a filthy bedsit, watching daytime TV = lose

that said I've not really done any drugs for the last 2 years or so, bar the occasional mash-up

they just dont play a part in going out like they did when I was a wee nipper. Remember kids, drugs are BAD.

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood

Also, even if you deny this, legalising the use of cannabis wouldnt actually increase the usage and would free up great amounts of police time and prison space, as well as reducing the use of harder drugs by removing the gateways to drug dealers, so no matter how dangerous you believe it to be, there is no reason not to legalise it.

I won't get into the addicitive qualities of the wacky weed because I do belive that anything is addicitive given the "makeup" of the individual users..
BUT
to make pot legal, yes that would free up police time, and prison space.. the same would happen if you made coke, herion, crystal meth, and anything else that is illegal..that is a poor excuse for what is a valid argument.. I lean towards "yes" make GENERAL use legal.. but if there were some way (and there probably is) is measure the amount that has been used, like a DWI test, use that as a "safe" use type of thing..

a little background before I go on..

have I used pot?
oohh yes... I used to smoke so much that I lost interest in it..getting high just started to make me sleepy.. other drug use..yes again.. a whole bunch of other stuff, but never shot up anything.. and while I was in highschool I had a good friend get killed by a drunk driver..

my problem with making pot legal is that, if you "give an inch, you usually lose a foot" meaning that if you make pot legal then were does it stop.... and how much easier would it be to get other "harder" drugs legalized?? And I really don't think that anyone would want to see coke or herione as a legal drug..
I could go on but..nah!

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 01:55 PM
Spirit : If I thought that legalising heroin wouldnt increase the usage of it, i would legalise it. Many deaths from heroin are a result of contamination and legalisation would prevent that, as well as freeing up more time and money. But as it is, I think that legalisation would do ( in the long run ) far more harm than good. I take your point but I think that legalising cannabis would decrease the harm it causes ( mainly by breaking links with suppliers, as it is at the moment anyone that has access to pot probably has access to much harder drugs as well ) as well as being fairer.

As for addictiveness, anything can be pyschologically addictive if it gives pleasure, drug or not. Studys have shown that in most cases cannabis is no more addictive than anything else, and undeniably less so than nicotine or alchohol.

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
Spirit : If I thought that legalising heroin wouldnt increase the usage of it, i would legalise it. Many deaths from heroin are a result of contamination and legalisation would prevent that, as well as freeing up more time and money. But as it is, I think that legalisation would do ( in the long run ) far more harm than good. I take your point but I think that legalising cannabis would decrease the harm it causes ( mainly by breaking links with suppliers, as it is at the moment anyone that has access to pot probably has access to much harder drugs as well ) as well as being fairer.

As for addictiveness, anything can be pyschologically addictive if it gives pleasure, drug or not. Studys have shown that in most cases cannabis is no more addictive than anything else, and undeniably less so than nicotine or alchohol.

actually, all problems with heroine are a result of the criminalisation of it. if, like it used to be, it was a controlled substance available through doctors then the addicts would have a serious chance of getting off it, which they dont have under the current- "smoke/inject etc anything and we'll lock you up" approach.

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope


actually, all problems with heroine are a result of the criminalisation of it. if, like it used to be, it was a controlled substance available through doctors then the addicts would have a serious chance of getting off it, which they dont have under the current- "smoke/inject etc anything and we'll lock you up" approach.

I don't know if doctors can or can't prescribe herion.. but if doctors could prescribe it as a controled substance.. then don't you think that, that would be just another avenue to go about getting a drug with (apperantly) very little "good" involved with it..
look at sleeping pills, delotted (sp) and some of the other harder drugs.. you can get them through a doctor.. but there is a huge demand for them on the black market... so what makes you think that getting "x,y,and z" drugs from a doctor leagly would make a difference to those that want them?

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker


I don't know if doctors can or can't prescribe herion.. but if doctors could prescribe it as a controled substance.. then don't you think that, that would be just another avenue to go about getting a drug with (apperantly) very little "good" involved with it..
look at sleeping pills, delotted (sp) and some of the other harder drugs.. you can get them through a doctor.. but there is a huge demand for them on the black market... so what makes you think that getting "x,y,and z" drugs from a doctor leagly would make a difference to those that want them?
why, because as i said, before some time in the swingin sixties, heroine was merely a controlled substance, doctors could prescribe it medicinaly or something. when a stop was put to this, the handfull of addicts still wanted their fix, so it turned to the criminals to provide,
dince then, the problem with heroine has skyrocketed.and it also carries additional risks because of impurities and uncertain doesage.

also, studies have shown that if and when doctors are aloowed to rpescribe actual, pure heroine to addicts wanting to get cleen, theyt have a greater chance of doing so, and staying so.

now do you see? ;)

Cat Fuzz
18th Nov 2001, 04:58 PM
No! Friggin' dopeheads. :D

Claw
18th Nov 2001, 06:27 PM
Caffeine. I drink alcohol now and then, but I am a caffeine junkie. Just as I am typing this I am gulping down a coke and long for more :o


But what the heck, I am all for legalizing pot. And the reason sleeping pills and painkillers etc. are sold at the black market is 'cos you can't just get it fo no reason from your doctor, and some of 'em are pretty addictive; so you got them for a reason first, and whan your doc stops prescribing them, you still want 'em. I guess the problem lies in prescribing the stuff in the first place.
And I think punishing addicts doesn't help solving their problems either...

ohohoh... I ne-need my caff-feiine...

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope


now do you see? ;) that was sometime in the 60's as you said.. well also in the 60's and so on.. racisism was ok. and things changed.. just like the desire for drugs getting more violent .. and as to your point.. Yes I can see.. I can see that you want to give addicts the very thing that they are addicted to.. and somehow that will get them clean..personally I belive that peeps that are addicted to an illegal substance.. should be locked away.. (rehab or jail depending on the offense) and with out their drug of choice.. they can get clean.. it is a FACT.. if you can't get what you want.. then you can get over it..

and as to my other point...
look at sleeping pills, delotted (sp) and some of the other harder drugs.. you can get them through a doctor.. but there is a huge demand for them on the black market... so what makes you think that getting "x,y,and z" drugs from a doctor leagly would make a difference to those that want them
please address that..

Claw
18th Nov 2001, 06:35 PM
*cough*answergivenalready*cough*

But Spirit is right here... you can force a junkie to get clean, and I'd do that to just any addict who is found out and doesn't ask for help on his own... "cold withdrawl" it's called in German.
The problem with jails is, you can get the accursed stuff in there :mad:

QUALTHWAR
18th Nov 2001, 07:46 PM
Uh, drugs are bad, mkay?

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Claw
can get the accursed stuff in there :mad: [/B]

you do have a point there

Deathwing
18th Nov 2001, 08:19 PM
The problem with legalizing any drug is that, eventually, people will think about it as the norm, realize this other drug isn't much different, and try to legalize that. And it'll happen again, and again, and again, until finally people are debating whether to legalize cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, and the like.

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Deathwing
The problem with legalizing any drug is that, eventually, people will think about it as the norm, realize this other drug isn't much different, and try to legalize that. And it'll happen again, and again, and again, until finally people are debating whether to legalize cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, and the like.

and THAT is what I was trying to get at in a gun control debate as well as this discussion... but other peoples seem to be a hellofalot more consice than me lately...

Stilgar
18th Nov 2001, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Deathwing
The problem with legalizing any drug is that, eventually, people will think about it as the norm, realize this other drug isn't much different, and try to legalize that. And it'll happen again, and again, and again, until finally people are debating whether to legalize cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, and the like.

this is the kind of conjecture which pisses off those trying to legalise pot...

Frostblood
19th Nov 2001, 01:24 AM
I dont think legalising pot would lead to anything else being legalised...look at tobacco , that kills millions and has been legal for decades while pot is a criminalised.

I do agree that legalising hard drugs would be a mistake...40% of people have tried pot, and if it was legal and cheap a good number would try heroin, cocain etc. But they would be far more likely to become regular users,thanks to the addiction, and with that sheer quantuty of usage there would be many more drugs deaths. Crime rates would fall dramatically however, at least in the short run.

oosyxxx
20th Nov 2001, 11:38 AM
WAT AER YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! POT ISN'T BAD FOR YOU ALCOHOL IS WAY WORSER JUST LOOK AT THE TRAFIC SMASHES! POT NEVER MADE ANYONE GO TO JAIL FOR POT DRIVING! GOD PUT POT ON THE EARTH FOR MEN TO SMOKE IT MAN WHY IS IT ILLEGAL? THEN DIRT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL! PEOPLE WHO THINK IT IS ILLEGAL IARE DUMB BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALIZE! HEMP CAN BE USED FOR PAPER AND BUILDING TREE FORTS AND SCHOOLBOOKS! IT WOULD CURE THE NATIONAL DET! ALL THE GOOD THINGS I CANT THINK OF BAD THINGS!

Vendetta
20th Nov 2001, 12:09 PM
smoke some ganja mon?-predator
you wanna hit this ****?-scary movie

i've been smokin for 24 years. if it was legal it wouldnt cost like it does.

in my opinion alcohol is much worse. ever heard of stoned driving?

Claw
20th Nov 2001, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
(...) ever heard of stoned driving?

As a matter of fact, yes, and also of ppl causing car accidents bein' stoned, and getting arrested for it, which is a damn good thing.

You're really funny. Natuarally, all drugs influence the sensoric system of the body. Of course driving stoned is stupid, dangerous and should be punished, even IF pot is legalized.
Alcohol IS legal after all, and still you're not allowed to drive when drunk.

Sven_ya!
20th Nov 2001, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Deathwing
The problem with legalizing any drug is that, eventually, people will think about it as the norm, realize this other drug isn't much different, and try to legalize that. And it'll happen again, and again, and again, until finally people are debating whether to legalize cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, and the like.

Wrong.

The reason Marijuana will become legal within our lifetime has nothing to do with health risks, addictive qualities of the drug or any of that BS. It's strictly to do with cultural acceptance.

Most people these days don't really think of Marijuana in the same league as cocaine, heroine, crack and any other hard drugs. I know plenty of people who have no problem with Marijuana, but would never fry their brains and bodies on harder drugs.

Especially in the US, the history of drug legalization has had far more to do with societal and political pressure than health issues. Prohibition was an attempt at cultural assimilation: get the German to drink less beer and get the Italian Americans to stop drinking wine and make the whole lot more puritan. Prohibition happened at a time when many immigrants were taking their place in American culture, and banning alcohol was a backlash against that disguised as a public health move.

Prohibition failed because alcohol was too strong a cultural force to make illegal, especially in "The land of the free." Ask any member of MADD and they'll give you a good earfull about the dangers of alcohol, it's arguably the most dangerous drug out there.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a pointless debate. Marijuana will be legal because culturally it has already become accepted. I mean, *everybody* smokes it. I'm one of the rare people I do know who's never tried it. As for all the people I do know that smoke it, only a small fraction are what I would call addicted or even have a serious problem as a result of their use. The rest of the potheads I know run businesses, raise families and contribute to the GNP like anybody else.

Sven_ya!
20th Nov 2001, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker


and THAT is what I was trying to get at in a gun control debate as well as this discussion... but other peoples seem to be a hellofalot more consice than me lately...

To me, using the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" argument has never sounded rational. The basis of this argument is in fear, so rationality goes right out the window. Basically, you don't want to legalize any drug other than the ones currently legal and you don't want to put any restrictions on firearms because you're afraid that it'll be the beginning to some kind of apocalyptic downfall of modern civilization.

Chill.

There's plenty of 1st ammendment restrictions in place, and that's been going on for centuries, but have we turned into a society where the government dictates what you can and can't say in public? Do people get executed for publishing slightly controversial works?

Vendetta
20th Nov 2001, 03:47 PM
claw i agree that if people are causing a problem driving they should be arrested, and pot can slow your reflexes if you smoke enough. i must not be that bad. i smoke daily, but havent been in an accident in over 20 years, and i havent even had a ticket in 7 years. so i dont see marijuana use as a major contributor to car accidents or irrational driving, whereas alcohol has an almost immediate effect.

SpiritWalker
20th Nov 2001, 05:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sven_ya!


To me, using the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" argument has never sounded rational. The basis of this argument is in fear, so rationality goes right out the window. Basically, you don't want to legalize any drug other than the ones currently legal and you don't want to put any restrictions on firearms because you're afraid that it'll be the beginning to some kind of apocalyptic downfall of modern civilization.

first of all... I DO belive in gun control (ie meaning use 2 hands)
and please see the thread that I am about to start concerning this.. and giving in to something often leads to giving in to more.. that is just the way of things..while as I said I lean twards making pot legal.. I have see peoples get arrested for DWI..due to being high.. and 006.. I have been in accidents due to the driver being high.. it does happen

There's plenty of 1st ammendment restrictions in place, and that's been going on for centuries, but have we turned into a society where the government dictates what you can and can't say in public? Do people get executed for publishing slightly controversial works?


No, not executed.. but excommunicated.. yes.. think about all the peoples that have been "censcored" due to the fact that the ideas that they have go against the accepted policies that gov/society have set down..branded "witches", tratiors, rebels, and such.. just because "thoughts' can be considered wrong..
i\

Frostblood
21st Nov 2001, 02:09 AM
Claw : Driving while on high doses of nicotine or most other stimulants would actually make you a better driver as it would improve you reactions and reflexs.

Sven : No matter whether its only a matter of acceptance or not ( and I dont think things have changed much, harder drugs have never been acceptable while cannabis has always been seen as in a different league, even if it was not treated as such in the eyes of the law ), the scientific evidence stands...no matter what leads to legalisation, it would be a good move. The slipperly slope risk is a serious one, but look how long it took to legalise even cannabis in a society which allows nicotine and alchohol...it wont be a problem for many years methinks.

Sven_ya!
21st Nov 2001, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker

No, not executed.. but excommunicated.. yes.. think about all the peoples that have been "censcored" due to the fact that the ideas that they have go against the accepted policies that gov/society have set down..branded "witches", tratiors, rebels, and such.. just because "thoughts' can be considered wrong..
i\

That kind of thing is rarely the doing of our government. Free speech in this country is curbed all the time, but mostly by private influences. Anybody who thinks the government has any serious control over the press or over free speech in this country doesn't know who's *really* controlling their speech.

jreister
21st Nov 2001, 11:23 AM
ignorize da babylon systam

Claw
21st Nov 2001, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Vendetta
claw i agree that if people are causing a problem driving they should be arrested, and pot can slow your reflexes if you smoke enough. i must not be that bad. i smoke daily, but havent been in an accident in over 20 years, and i havent even had a ticket in 7 years. so i dont see marijuana use as a major contributor to car accidents or irrational driving, whereas alcohol has an almost immediate effect.

Well, many people smoke and drink alot and become stone-old, while others don't smoke and die of cancer nonetheless.
The effects drugs have on people vary greatly, but alcohol is in general more predictable than pot.
Of course, there are people who will tell you they can drive a car with 100 millilitres alcohol level as well as the next man sober.
And what does 'immediate effect' mean anyway? The dose does play a role, yaknow. I believe most people can drive with 50 millilitres just as well as with 5 but some can't.

In theory, everyone should be able to judge himself if he can drive, as well as the pleasures he enjoys. But humans simply can't be trusted.

Frostblood
21st Nov 2001, 01:44 PM
"In theory, everyone should be able to judge himself if he can drive, as well as the pleasures he enjoys. But humans simply can't be trusted."

Agreed. I wouldn't trust anyone to judge themselves in a drunk state, not even the most intelligent person could make an accurate decision drunk. Nor stoned either probably. It's better to inconvinience a few than kill a few.

BangOut
21st Nov 2001, 04:42 PM
Marijuana should only be legal for people who need it. And no one in here can be listed under that category.

That being said, no one needs alcohol or tobacco either and in a perfect world all three wouldn't have to be illegal- people just wouldn't do them. But people aren't smart enough to avoid them, are they?

Twrecks
21st Nov 2001, 04:48 PM
Better a tax revenue than a burden, similar to Tobacco, Caffienne and Alcohol.
Cocaine and Speed like drugs are by far more damaging than any of the above substances and could not be properly moderated if made legal.
I don't think hallucigyns should be, I don't believe half the stuff I see/hear why make it 100%?
Just my $.02 just to let you know I couldn't afford a habit anyway.