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Cactus
17th Nov 2001, 04:39 AM
i'm starting this thread because of firstly my personal bitterness, but more importantly to ask you what you think about our society. please do not allow this to degenerate into a religious discussion, seriously.

well i wrote this for an away message yesterday, let's skip over why, but this is the full text that i wanted to type (not enough space on AIM) share your thoughts.

-----
I'm sick and tired of it, Kids running around trying to disagree with every ****ing establishment they see, for no other reason than to whine and bitch about a society that they nevertheless continue to patronize in all its splendors and glory. They rag on the status quo for no other reason than that it is the status quo, while offering no pragmatic solutions to real world problems. They are the most spoiled and pampered of society yet they are dedicated to denouncing it out of their own boredom and their liking of the sound of their own voice. As if their constant bitching will feed one hungry child or shelter one homeless family. If you're so angry then why aren't you organizing a revolution in the hills, instead of typing on your IBM laptop sipping a Frappaccino, listening to your BSB? GET OVER IT!
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the main reason? well i was going through other BBS's, (ones i don't troll...) and i came across a few that really make me ****ing angry. they're made by kids around my age. well not really kids then, but still... and the strange thing is that these kids are all well-to-do kids, raised in middle class families, with money, bought their kids what they want, they're pampered, they're all in ivy league institutions.... yadda yadda. yet some of these kids, have no appreciation of what it takes to make the world turn, and constantly bitch moan whine and generally act like assholes, to anything they dont like, which happens to be everything.

i was most offended by some of these kids who are constantly ragging on Rudy Giuliani. why? because firstly i've always supported Rudy, because i've lived in NYC for a hell of a long time and i remember my dad getting the business end of a revolver shoved in his face, and me almost getting stabbed in the subway during the dinkins administration, and oh yeah, our house was burglerized when we had literally no money in the bank. fun ****ing fun. Rudy cleaned all taht up and i'm eternally grateful. Second, Rudy is the greatest mayor in new york history, barring from contention with fiorello laGuardia. he's had problems with the police, yes, one transit worker strike yes. but even before 9-11, he's done more for the city already, in an 8 year span, than david dinkins and ed kosh could have done in ten lifetimes. and after 9-11, for the sake of FU-CKING SOLIDARITY, we should at least be behind him. Yet these kids, who LIVE in NYC, have the audacity to criticize him, at a time like this, take his quotes (knowingly and deliberately) out of context, try to bash him, and denouce things like the time square initiative (which incidentally, removed the whole fuking red light district from middle of manhattan) HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BITCH ABOUT GETTING PORN SHOPS OUT OF A PLACE LIKE TIME SQUARE?!?! it"s like complaining about getting the graffiti off the streets of harlem, or removing raw sewage from the grand canyon. obvoiusly good things, yet these kids try to pick faults out of them. WHY!?! i ask, WHY!?!?! like they can handle something like 9-11? if they were mayor of NYC and that happened, most likely you'd find them in their office hanging off a beam off their own intestines the next day. they have had 2 months to think about the actions of the government during the crisis, RUDY HAD 2 seconds, it was fuking real time. WHO ARE THEY TO SAY THEY KNOW BETTER?!

what's this world coming to? these kids (rightfully adults now, 18+) will disagree with everything and anything they come across, simply for the fact that it is not theirs. they are priviledged children, not born into poverty or any such thing. they are lucky enough to be born in a society which allows them to actualize far more than others. yet they sit on their asses and b!tch all day.

firstly there's far worse problems in the world than the corruption of the american media. kids in uganda are running around with their hands and feet cut off. that's worse than CNN giving bad footage.

secondly these kids patronize the very society they whine so much about. they wear name brand clothing, they go to ivy league schools, the stuff they eat, the water they drink, the air they breathe, all supplied by the powers to be. yet none of these kids are even willing to acknowledge the good things that has come from the collective will of a hundred million souls. nor are they willing to take arms and seriously fight against the tyranny and oppression they in such loud tones rant about. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR GO HOME.

don't get me wrong, i think there are plenty of things wrong with the government's policies. but while i criticize, i'm not all words, and i don't do it indiscriminantly. i can recognize when the government does good things, and i can acknowledge when the government tries hard to deal with a crisis, i can fully appreciate it. in fact, i hardly ever talk about my "resentment" towards the government, unless i'm talking about specific instances of injustices. why? because what i feel towards the government is not really resentment at all, i can tell both the right and the wrong of government policy, in fact, in school i'm studying the system, to learn to work with the system, to institute changes which i think are necessary to help more people. i am workign with the system to make it better, whereas they are working against the system to no end at all.

i dont' classify myself as patriotic to this government. nor will i tell someone to shut up if they are addressing a particular grievance against a particularly problematic policy, something like the DMCA or the SSSCA. i know history well enough to judge the good things from the bad. i remember in another post i wrote that "while i criticize the government, i never failed to appreciate the fact that i CAN criticize it, that i have the right to do that, and that alone makes this country worth living in." the government is far from perfect, and in its current state, i find it difficult to swear my allegiance to it, over my allegiance to humanity, but at least i'm doing something to help change it.

my understanding is that in this sick and twisted world, some people just don't know who they are, and they can only define who they are by tearing down others, not unlike bin Laden, who would have been an unknown if he didn't start blowing sh!t up. they're sad pathetic people.

so ends my bitter rant.

Rabid Wolf
17th Nov 2001, 05:01 AM
http://members.fortunecity.com/wolftrubshaw/pics/was.gif

JTRipper
17th Nov 2001, 06:11 AM
Damn. That's a hell of a post. Let me see if I can at least point at the source of the problem you're seeing, if not completely define it. Take a moment to think about a simple little poem my granfather related when I was a kid -

As a rule, a man's a fool;
When it's hot he wants it cool.
When it's cool he wants it hot;
Always wanting what is not.

I've had at least 20 years to realize the truth in this, so let it sink in for a minute.

Apart from that, I think that a difference in eastern/western philosophy may be playing a role in your outrage here as well. I don't really know to what extent your upbringing was "eastern", but you probably recognize that part of the "western" way of life is accepting that kids are self-centered little snots. This acceptance makes for a rough transition from "kid" to "adult" in some ways, and one extension of this is the fact that some people have trouble letting go of the "the world is out to get me" thing. In fact, I suspect that some never do. From what I know of it, eastern thought tends to be much more pragmatic than western - I imagine that your parents had much less patience for the sort of crap that Americans have. As a result, I'm guessing you achieved a level of maturity ahead of these other kids - maybe it could be thought of as an advanced perspective, rather than maturity.

In short - we don't expect our kids to have foresight. We don't expect our kids to be able to "put themselves in someone else's shoes". We don't expect kids to understand what social responsibility really is. We might teach kids to understand cause and effect, but we don't expect them to understand it until they're much older. The chain of development generally then includes a period where kids rail blindly (and irresponsibly) against any real or perceived injustice (to themselves first, then to others eventually), and expect a solution to drop into place just because they do. I might be completely wrong about the role of your upbringing in this, but it seems a likely explanation to me. Western parents generally just "allow the process to happen", with pushes and nudges now and then. I'm guessing that your parents made a willful effort to ram you through it (and succeeded). Now you're seeing "adults" going through stages that you left behind years ago, and it irritates you that people with the knowledge of adults are behaving like what you expect from kids.

Again, I might be off a bit here and there, and I don't think I've actually defined what bothers you, but I do think I've pointed in it's direction. Make of it what you will.

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 06:48 AM
People attacking authority simply because its there is dangerous and infuriating. I know exactly what Cactus means. Its the natural "fly the nest" instinct in play, ( which is also why adolescents and their parents tend not to get on well )...people want to be independent and not rely on others, but they dont actually have the balls to break away from society or do something about it so they whine about it instead.

The problem is that people start looking for and picking apart any flaws in the establishment, whatever they consider that to be, and they can make a very persuasive argument. They of course ignore all the good points ( like in the Guiliani example. ) But someone can make a persuasive argument about anything, you have to step back and look at the realitys of it : Society cant be doing that much wrong, 50 years ago the current levels of equality and freedom in the world would have been a pipe dream.

As Cactus says, the worst part of it all is the fact that these would be revoloutionarys ignore the real problems in the world because they can't see beyond the end of their nose. 24,000 people die each day through lack of food, millions die each year from diseases that would be curable in the west, and yet instead of doing anything about them ( or even talking about them ) they decide to take issue with things that pale in comparison.

Of course, there are big problems in western society too. But this isn't the fault of the existence of government or the fact that it has too much power, its the fault of all of us. Human nature is selfish and heartless when it comes down to it, and the more unchecked freedom you give people, the more they take it away eventually : look at communist russia. The soloutions to societys problems are not to destroy the establishment but to strengthen and improve it, ultimatly leading to a benevolent dictatorship perhaps.

Evil_Cope
17th Nov 2001, 08:08 AM
screw the anarchists. capitalism ownzme

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 08:31 AM
Cope : Literally ;)

Cactus : I read somewhere ( it might have been one of your posts actually...) that Guiliani personally helped to dig the survivors out of the WTC just a few hours afterwards and got trapped in a building by wreckage...how anyone can criticize someone that would do that, most politicians would settle for attending a public memorial but he went to dozens of funerals as well...the american government may have its share of corruption and incompetents, but Guiliani is a great man.

Claw
17th Nov 2001, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by mister_cope
screw the anarchists. capitalism ownzme

capitalism is institutionalized egoism.

Evil_Cope
17th Nov 2001, 09:36 AM
you dont like it? then feel free to donate your precious computer to the community. or me for that matter. :)


personally, i love the fact that if i wanted to/get lucky enough, i too can become a corporate fat cat. :) and that, is true equality folks...

Claw
17th Nov 2001, 09:47 AM
Sounds more like propability to me.

And I don't like any kind of extreme. It's most propably unreasonable.

Cactus
17th Nov 2001, 11:27 AM
points well taken, alas i have work to go to at noon, i'll be back at 2 to write back.

Cat Fuzz
17th Nov 2001, 12:38 PM
Cactus: I totally agree with everything you said up there. I understand your frustration because I feel it too. People running around latching on to any cause just to feel important. People sittin around waiting to be offended so they can sue someone over it. Celebrating their good fortune when they get into a car wreck and can sue for "pain and suffering". Leeches, every one of them.

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 01:36 PM
"personally, i love the fact that if i wanted to/get lucky enough, i too can become a corporate fat cat. and that, is true equality folks..."

If it was that easy, then why wouldnt everyone do it? Its the pure luck of the draw.

JTRipper
17th Nov 2001, 01:44 PM
No, it's more effort than most folks are willing to put forth.

lucifix
17th Nov 2001, 01:49 PM
"I wanna be, ANARCHY!"

**** the establishment...........

lucifix
17th Nov 2001, 01:52 PM
im not on the same level as you guys. not saying that im stupid, but you can phrase stuff better without letting your anger get the best of you. so i think i will sidestep this thread :)

@kuma
17th Nov 2001, 02:03 PM
Fight the war, **** the norm, sign to Sony for a 7 figure payoff

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 02:08 PM
I wouldnt have said so, lucifix.

lucifix
17th Nov 2001, 02:12 PM
Der Untermensch

Hey you on public assistance
Why don't you get a job?
Sell some dope and buy some pride
It's the only thing you couldn't rob

Socioparasite

How does it feel to live for free?
Get off society's back
Skells like you allowed to live
You wonder why we're taxed

Socioparasite

Getting ****ed up on Classon Avenue
Smoking crack and drinking booze
Spike in your arm
No money for food
But there's plenty of gas in your BMW

There's a dopewhore waiting at home
Dealing your **** on the chemophone
Poor Tawana gets born with a birth defect
But it only increases your welfare check

Been doing some thinking and I have an answer
To arrest the spreading cancer
Send you back to where you came from
Get the **** rid of you (sub)human scum

If you don't pay taxes you shouldn't vote
So get in line and get back on the boat
I'd love to tear down all those projects
Kiss my ass home relief reject

Waste of life
You're a waste of life

lucifix
17th Nov 2001, 02:14 PM
what song is your sig from? i know its sabbath but cant think of the song..........

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 02:32 PM
Cornucopia from Volume 4. A great album apart from the lamentable "Changes".

lucifix
17th Nov 2001, 02:35 PM
oh, ok, I dont listen to v4 alot. Except for Under the Sun.

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 02:37 PM
Wheels of confusion, supernaut and snowblind are other classics from V4.

Cactus
17th Nov 2001, 03:42 PM
Look, obviously when i posted lastnight, there was a lot of background stories that i didn't include, so the whole rant seemed unfocused at many points. i've had a chance to think and to refine.

first a few responses: JT: I agree with what you say, but even in eastern philosophies, there are still people, demogagues, (not in china cuz you can't really do that and not get shot, but many in taiwan) who basically make it their existence to bring down the establishment, while not understanding at the slightest, the political balance that needs to be struck.

example, the Taiwanese president, who is extremely unpopular in taiwan, who ran on the premise of independence, as soon as he took office, took a soft stance on teh whole issue and announced that he would not seek independence. these people, either don't know, or knowing continue to ignore the complexities of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-dimensional collective known as a "nation" and the strain it is under every single day, to remain a cohesive nation.

Frost: Giuliani wasn't digging people out but he was in the downtown area before the buildings even collapsed (that's where city hall is as well) he refused to leave when the police commissioner asked him to, and was directing relief efforts until he became trapped in 1 liberty by the dust and debris for a while when tower 1 came down. that's Churchill caliber, FDR caliber, that's not something you'd ever see hillary clinton doing in a million years.

but we digress. the extreme liberals who preach tolerance are no better than the extreme conservatives, these people call themselves democratic socialists, anarchists, etc. but they have no wish at all to represent any views except tehir own. socialism requires a representation and tolerance of all ideas, hwoever these people only wish to tolerate the ones that coincide with their own doctrines. we should hear the ideas that everyone has, except the ones we feel are absurd.

they are neither tolerant nor pragmatic, they want generalized social welfare, while not suggesting any way to raise funds or compensate labor for those services. tehy want everything to be done their way, and whine and bitch about it when they aren't. they want everyone to be pleased, but they want themselves to be pleased above all else. it's selfish and arrogant.

Frostblood
17th Nov 2001, 04:26 PM
You have to allow everyones views to be heard, no matter how crazy they may seem at first, because the melting pot of ideas will produce better molten mix ( erm :hmm: ) the more people contribute. The right to complete freedom of speech ( which includes the right not to be heard, privacy is as important as publicity ) is of paramount importance to civilisation.

The people you describe would probably argue that they want that as much as anyone. But in reality they are as closed minded as anyone, if not more so because they really believe that they are in the right and that they're campaigning for a better society, when in fact, if they had their way, the world would be an even worse place than they envision it to be...

SpiritWalker
17th Nov 2001, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BITCH ABOUT GETTING PORN SHOPS OUT OF A PLACE LIKE TIME SQUARE?!?! it"s like complaining about getting the graffiti off the streets of harlem, or removing raw sewage from the grand canyon. obvoiusly good things, yet these kids try to pick faults out of them. WHY!?! i ask, WHY!?!?!


I do agree with you Cactus.. except..

graffiti off the streets of Harlem, and raw sewage off the Grand Canyon floor and things of that nature is pollution, and illegal where as the porn shops (as distasteful as they are to some) are legal places of bussines, and until the laws are changed by popular vote then they should be where ever the zoning laws allow...
most "kids" will always complain about stuff that they don't like, and bitchandwhine, but won't do anything to change the issues at hand.. then we learn.. and grow..
and laugh at the stupid things that we do..

JTRipper
18th Nov 2001, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Cactus
even in eastern philosophies, there are still people, demogagues, (...) who basically make it their existence to bring down the establishment, while not understanding at the slightest, the political balance that needs to be struck.

Then I'd say that it's correct that some people just don't reach the phase of development that lets them see more than their own view in any empathic way. It's not my own idea; I'm digging up concepts from my psych days again. Of interest to you might be a French psychiatrist or psychologist whose name I can't dredge up at the moment (Jean something, I think) who outlined stages of mental and social development. If you haven't taken psych, any PS101 pal of yours could probably supply the name. At any rate, the final stage he described was one that allows this adoption of differing perspectives, and he submitted that some people just don't get that far. I've never drawn a solid conclusion as to whether some people aren't capable of it, don't find an environment that allows it, or just don't make the effort to realize it; I do agree with him though that this stage exists as he described it.


the extreme liberals who preach tolerance are no better than the extreme conservatives, these people call themselves democratic socialists, anarchists, etc. but they have no wish at all to represent any views except tehir own.

I only have a problem with that if they never weighed their views against opposing views. I only represent my own views; I'm willing to listen to reasoned, opposing arguments though. Then they might be rejected or adopted. If they've done that I may still think they're idiots, but at least I can respect their views.

they are neither tolerant nor pragmatic, they want generalized social welfare, while not suggesting any way to raise funds or compensate labor for those services. tehy want everything to be done their way, and whine and bitch about it when they aren't. they want everyone to be pleased, but they want themselves to be pleased above all else. it's selfish and arrogant.

Hammer meets nail. ;) If you'd like a thought-provoking examination of this (and a lot more), put Ayne Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" on your reading list. I think she got a few things wrong, oversimplified a couple ideas, and a lot of people will tell you to pick up "The Fountainhead" first, but her ideas are starkly clear and practically force you to examine them. It's sort of... opposing philosophies at work, set in fiction. Your above paragraph describes one of these philosophies at work rather well.

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 02:28 AM
Spirit: i agree that porn shops are legal enterprises. however, a district of porn shops often attracts shady and unsavory enterprises such as brothels and rampant prostitution, which is illegal, and bad for business in general. however this in of itself is not a justification for eliminating the porn businesses. the real reason i believe that justifies the removal of sex shops from the area is the fact that 42'nd street, Time Square is a landmark, 7 street blocks in either direction, you have one the north side, St. Patrick's cathedral and Rockafeller center, 7 blocks south you have Penn Station, Madison Square Garden, Macy's department store, and all around the area is full of legitimate banking, fashion businesses. in such an environment, it would be uncharacteristic to have a section as a red light district.

i think there are always red light districts in every city in the world, there's no "zoning" for it, prostitution just happens. however, i do believe in there being a time and place for everything and the location of a red light district in time square is grossly inappropriate. imagine another landmark, say the national mall, the lincoln memorial, and then imagine a row of 25cent peep show stores along the way. it seems absurd and almost outrageous, because we want a landmark to be the defining symbol of the character and principles of a country, things we are proud of, and we are certainly not going to show sex shops as our best face forward.

the removal of the red light district was in of itself not only an improvement on the image of new york, but was essential to the new york rennaisance. we could not have climbed out of the deep dark hole david dinkins had left for us, if we didn't make at least manhattan uniform in its value, in its culture, and in its class.

plenty of sex shops still exist, but just not in that area, and i think that new york is quote the better for it.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 06:10 AM
insted of bitching about porn shops maybe we should bitch about getting guns out of the hands of children. I honestly cant remember the last death/murder/suicide caused by porn :p

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 06:12 AM
if you want the world to be a better place make organized religion illegal..........

Evil_Cope
18th Nov 2001, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
insted of bitching about porn shops maybe we should bitch about getting guns out of the hands of children. I honestly cant remember the last death/murder/suicide caused by porn :p

sorted. nuff said.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 06:17 AM
posted by cactus:"i agree that porn shops are legal enterprises. however, a district of porn shops often attracts shady and unsavory enterprises such as brothels and rampant prostitution"

ok.......dude you need to chill. and look at the real enemy......gun shops/liquor stores/churches are more shady and unsavory.....imo

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 06:24 AM
and i honestly see nothing wrong with prostitution. if it were made legal every goddamn man in the world would be getting laid every sec of the day, including you cactus. the only thing wrong with it is the disease part and if it were legal and the "ladies" were made to have frequent checkups there would be no problem. and drugs would also be a lot better if they were legalized but thats another topic.............

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 06:39 AM
you missed my point entirely, i was merely making a counter-point to a commentary about the time square initiative, which i wholeheartedly support. i was saying that people rag on it, call it stupid, have really no reason to because it was indeed good for the city. i'm not saying that there isn't bigger problems out there. just because we have seen worse doesn't mean we can't address smaller problems. by your logic, we see children with their hands and feet cut off in Uganda, which if compared to say, heroin use in inner cities, is far more violent and far more atrocious, but such a comparison is merely an observation, it does not necessitate the emphasis of one problem over another. i'm in no way denying that there are more fuked up **** in the world, but why are you saying we can't address this problem? are you saying that because there is worse, we should ignore this problem? i'm just talkign about the merits of this particular policy, i'm not talking about guns, gang violence, drug use and the degradation of family values, which granted are all problems, have no bearing on teh question at hand.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Cactus
you missed my point entirely, i was merely making a counter-point to a commentary about the time square initiative, which i wholeheartedly support. i was saying that people rag on it, call it stupid, have really no reason to because it was indeed good for the city. i'm not saying that there isn't bigger problems out there. just because we have seen worse doesn't mean we can't address smaller problems. by your logic, we see children with their hands and feet cut off in Uganda, which if compared to say, heroin use in inner cities, is far more violent and far more atrocious, but such a comparison is merely an observation, it does not necessitate the emphasis of one problem over another. i'm in no way denying that there are more fuked up **** in the world, but why are you saying we can't address this problem? are you saying that because there is worse, we should ignore this problem? i'm just talkign about the merits of this particular policy, i'm not talking about guns, gang violence, drug use and the degradation of family values, which granted are all problems, have no bearing on teh question at hand. uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 06:59 AM
uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............

But still the same world. And that isnt even the worst of it. It is a problem and people should care, no matter where they live.

I agree about porn shops, they are no problem and I dont think they do attract other "buisnesses" of their kind, rather they are attracted to areas which are that way inclined anyway. But if they were propaly controlled pornography and prostitution wouldnt be a "problem" at all.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............

But still the same world. And that isnt even the worst of it. It is a problem and people should care, no matter where they live.

I agree about porn shops, they are no problem and I dont think they do attract other "buisnesses" of their kind, rather they are attracted to areas which are that way inclined anyway. But if they were propaly controlled pornography and prostitution wouldnt be a "problem" at all. i didnt say i didnt care...it really shouldnt happen. what i meant was the whole world will never be on the same page so as long as it doesnt directly affect me i can deal with it. personally i think america is going to become just as bad if not worse than 3rd world countries....imo.......

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 07:11 AM
"i didnt say i didnt care...it really shouldnt happen. what i meant was the whole world will never be on the same page so as long as it doesnt directly affect me i can deal with it. personally i think america is going to become just as bad if not worse than 3rd world countries....imo......"

perhaps, but in a different way.

@kuma
18th Nov 2001, 08:12 AM
if it were made legal


it is legal in most countries - the US with it's confused institutionalized morality is one of the few places where a woman can **** 100 guys in a day for free, but get a criminal record for doing one guy for $$$.

It's to do with the christian theory of poon, you know the one where the guy doesnt get any until he's committed himself to a lifetime of looking after the woman - which is in many ways the ultimate form of prositution.

:rolleyes:

Stilgar
18th Nov 2001, 08:14 AM
Interesting topic.. I had some ramblings with a friend about this sort of ignorant backlash last night... I'll use an aquaintence as an example.

Ok... so this person hates McDonalds, and I'm not talking the general dislike of the crappy ads, colour scheme, food :D that's prevelant through much of society... just an unbridled hate of eveything it is and stands for.... including its employe's. So here he is at a 21st...badgering a couple who happened to meet each other while working for McDs, calling them "drones" and whining about them feeding "the machine" ( completely oblivious to the alchohol he just purchased, the clothes on his back... etc )
I guess the crux of the matter was that he couldn't seperate morality from necessity. The couple didnt really like McDs or its 'cause' ....Infact one of them hates it, but fast food joints are going to exist no matter who's in charge, and making money its just a way of surviving in a capitalist society.... that's the only justification they needed.... but he insisted on fighting his little moral battle against McDs... for the 'good' of the rest of us I assume.... oblivious to how much of an ass he was making of himself.

In saying this I should also note that I really can't relate to how much cynicism there apparently is in the US ?
Angst ridden teens are popular on new zealand tv (read american tv interspersed with local shows) but I believe that's a poor indication of what to expect from a national psyche half way around the world.
Cactus if you could provide some more examples of the problem you're talikng about then maybe I can contribute something slightly more interesting to this discussion :>

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 09:53 AM
whats the difference in taking a woman out,showing her a good time,buyin her expensive gifts and offering her $$$ for her company? i dont see one bit of ****ing difference.......

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Stilgar
Interesting topic.. I had some ramblings with a friend about this sort of ignorant backlash last night... I'll use an aquaintence as an example.

Ok... so this person hates McDonalds, and I'm not talking the general dislike of the crappy ads, colour scheme, food :D that's prevelant through much of society... just an unbridled hate of eveything it is and stands for.... including its employe's. So here he is at a 21st...badgering a couple who happened to meet each other while working for McDs, calling them "drones" and whining about them feeding "the machine" ( completely oblivious to the alchohol he just purchased, the clothes on his back... etc )
I guess the crux of the matter was that he couldn't seperate morality from necessity. The couple didnt really like McDs or its 'cause' ....Infact one of them hates it, but fast food joints are going to exist no matter who's in charge, and making money its just a way of surviving in a capitalist society.... that's the only justification they needed.... but he insisted on fighting his little moral battle against McDs... for the 'good' of the rest of us I assume.... oblivious to how much of an ass he was making of himself.

In saying this I should also note that I really can't relate to how much cynicism there apparently is in the US ?
Angst ridden teens are popular on new zealand tv (read american tv interspersed with local shows) but I believe that's a poor indication of what to expect from a national psyche half way around the world.
Cactus if you could provide some more examples of the problem you're talikng about then maybe I can contribute something slightly more interesting to this discussion :> i use to hate mcd's too, but now every time we go out our son drags us to "donnies" as he call's it :lol:

@kuma
18th Nov 2001, 09:57 AM
you can thank the Founding Fathers for fundamentally ****ing with the psyche of your country - its the twisted puritanism that means it's ok to show arnie killing gooks and ragheads on prime time tv, but to show nudity would be unchristian.

In some respects the US isn't that different from any other fundamentalist country.

Stilgar
18th Nov 2001, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
whats the difference in taking a woman out,showing her a good time,buyin her expensive gifts and offering her $$$ for her company? i dont see one bit of ****ing difference.......

one guy probably wants a relationship, the other just wants to stick his dick in her crack(s)...
that's about the only difference I can see at th emo.... that and taxation

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 10:55 AM
Cactus..
AGREED!!!! and your response was very clear, and intelligent as apposed to :D


Originally posted by lucifix
insted of bitching about porn shops maybe we should bitch about getting guns out of the hands of children. I honestly cant remember the last death/murder/suicide caused by porn :p

Not ment as a flame..

the way to get guns out of the hands of childeren is... (drum roll please)...
have the parents be parents!!!
As a parent if feel that it is my job/responsibility to
1. Know where my son is 24/7
2. Listen to what he has to say (when he starts talking :D )
3. Be aware of "changes" in his personality.
4. Know who he "hangs" with..
5. To be the teacher of right/wrong.. and provide the moral/spiritual "measuring stick" of right/wrong
6. let my son know that NO MATTER WHAT he will always be loved
I may not like something that he has done... but that's ok
7. Know what his school life is like and to take an active part in it.
it is NOT a teachers job to rasie my son (or the t.v.s).

I think that is parents would make time in their lives, and quite being so damn selfish, and to wrapped up in their problems, then you wouldn't see kids having kids, things like Columbine, rampant drug use and the like..

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
i didnt say i didnt care...it really shouldnt happen. what i meant was the whole world will never be on the same page so as long as it doesnt directly affect me i can deal with it. personally i think america is going to become just as bad if not worse than 3rd world countries....imo.......

It's opions like that that make me want to say.. then head to a 3rd world country for awhile.. see how you like it..

are you actually saying that if if dosen't affect me then I don't care??
WOW how naive can you be..
think about this...
You are walking down a mountain pass.. following a bunch of other hikers ..maybe 10.. and you see the first one get smashed to a plup by a rock slide... that dosen't affect you.. and then you see the 2 one get killed the same way.. and you think again.. dosen't affect me.. 3rd, 4th, and so on..now you are the last one.. and as you look up and see the rocks come crashing down..
I BET you would think.. "hmmmm... why didn't some one warn me about this.."

Life affects Life.. if you are wise enough to see it

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by @kuma

In some respects the US isn't that different from any other fundamentalist country.

Preach it!!! Brudda!! Preach it!!!

Frostblood
18th Nov 2001, 03:03 PM
"you can thank the Founding Fathers for fundamentally ****ing with the psyche of your country - its the twisted puritanism that means it's ok to show arnie killing gooks and ragheads on prime time tv, but to show nudity would be unchristian.

In some respects the US isn't that different from any other fundamentalist country."

Theres nothing in the bible that says "thou shalt not see a naked woman". In fact, some could argue that genesis encourages naturism ( the only time nudity became a problem is after adam and eve disobeyed God ). But this thread wasnt meant to turn into a religous discussion..,

As for McD's...frankly, I do hate them...they're exploitative, money grabbing and low quality. But I wouldn't dream of insulting any of the employees...they're the ones getting underpayed, and I'm sure they wouldnt work there if they could help it ( there is a joke in england, sadly rather true : "what do you say to a black person with a job?" "Big mac and fries please." ). The guy you described was an idiot. But that doesnt mean there isnt a problem...

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
uh, which "problem" are you refering to? if its porn, thats because porn shops ARENT a problem. and as far as the little kids getting theire hands chopped off in another country, well thats another country............

the problem i refer to is one you would realize if you actually read my post.

my first post had NOTHING to do with pornography, the topic of this thread had NOTHING to do with pornography, i merely mentioned the time square initiative as a political policy/plan, in passing, please do not mince words with me on the subject. you're missing the forest for the trees, please re-read the whole post before forming conclusions on what i'm saying. i also mentioned starving children in Uganda, perhaps you want to get into a detailed argument with me on that one too?

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 04:30 PM
ALRIGHT LISTEN TO WHAT THE WHOLE F*CKING POINT IS PEOPLE: this is a thread about anti-establismentarianism, NOT F(_)CKING PORNOGRAPHY! READ THE FIRST GODDAMN POST AND YOU"LL UNDERSTAND!!

this is the last time i say this. i'm not directing this at anyone but please please for the love of God, i'm not in the mood to have microscopic arguments about macroscopic policies. i have neither the time nor the energy to start a thread, and then for the next month continuously repeat what i said in the first post because people refuse to read it.

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 04:37 PM
hehehe.. sorry if me starting the porn sub-thread is off topic.. I just was pointing out a small thing..

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 07:52 PM
the question of pornography is legitimate to the point that it requires a discussion on wehther or not it warrants a policy such as the time square initiative. it is not legitimate when it becomes a question of if porn itself is decent/ acceptable/ legal, because it has nothing to do with the question originally posed.

furthermore, i think it's stupid to say that we shouldn't worry about porn because there are bigger problems. if my water heater broke, yes, it pales in comparrison to problems like people getting stabbed in the streets, but does that diminish any legitimacy of the problem that my water heater broke and that my landlord should fix it? not at all, and arguing such things is trivial and non-sensical. am i not to complain about my lack of shower water because some people are being stabbed? it would be nice if people neither got stabbed nor have no hot water, but that has no bearing on the merits of the discussion and the question at hand of having no hot water. i feel the pain of teh stabbing victim, but that discussion is parallel and cannot be held in precedent to the immediate concern of me not being able to bath.

Claw
18th Nov 2001, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
(...) because we want a landmark to be the defining symbol of the character and principles of a country, things we are proud of, and we are certainly not going to show sex shops as our best face forward.


sounds like you're not a great one for honesty, eh? :rolleyes:
'cept for the proudness part this is a vote for sex shops close to landmarks. Because we like sex and do not fell shame for it. Or are we? :p



furthermore, i think it's stupid to say that we shouldn't worry about porn because there are bigger problems.

I actually believe what he really wanted to say is that porn isn't a problem at all...

And your post concerning the time square initiative included the remark that you support it, so although you deny it (not quoted) the topic is porn, as a sub-topic at least, and some ppl decided to remark on that topic rather than the original topic.
And I'd like to remark that I also believe porn is neither a problem nor does it attract any "shady" business. Not in Germany at least, where porn shops can be found just in the middle of our main shopping streets and are usually ignored by ppl 'cept the customers of course, just like most other stores. And while prostitution isn't legal in Germany, it is "tolerated" and many a prostitute will tell you that is a damn good thing 'cos they can now run a bothrel without a pimp (?) which means they can earn a decent wage like ppl in normal jobs.


Ahh, there are so many li'll remarks or longish rants I'dlike to make in response to many posts herein... but it's goddamn late this side of the ocean, maybe tomorrow. I'll propably forget. :rolleyes:

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 09:22 PM
point taken. i should clarify. my liberal use of the word "porn" is an oversimplification that is going to haunt me, so i'm going to try to explain it here. pornography, in of itself is fine. peep shows, fine too, strip bars, legitimate businesses. i think the best word to characterize really time square before the time square intitiative, is not "row of porn shops" but rather, "red light district" which has a different meaning in the US than in the rest of the world. in the US, it seems to include porn shops, etc. in the rest of the world however, red light district basically means prostitution, and such shady business.

that's just a clarification, also in regard to prostitution, it wouldn't be so shady if not coupled with the rampant drug use, the crack epidemic, and the explosion of STD's during the 80's. i believe it is a combination of all these things that tarnishes the reputation of time-square. during the 80's, we didn't exactly have unionized prostitutes, nor systematic testing for STD's, nor do we have now, which is what makes it a problem.

i think the problem with time square before the intitiative was the fact that it was a red light district of the worst variety. coupled with all those bad things. and in reality, cleaning up time square was like driving the snakes out of ireland.

i hope that clarifies, firstly that i misused the word "porn" second, i'm talking about new york's days where there was a problem when the red light district was coupled with other bad things.

thirdly, you have to realize that time square, at that time was a terrible neighborhood, i mean there wasn't just a crack epidemic or STD transmission problem localized to that area, it was afflicting the whole nation, yet neighborhoods without porn shops seemed to have been far better off in those times than neighborhoods WITH porn shops. and that says to me that the red light district in new york was definately drawing unsavory crowds. in a world where everything is bad, it just so happened that the neighborhood with the porn shops were far worse. i think that's proof enough. i'm sure that in germany if you had a cluster of sex shops, 10 blocks in a row, there would also be attracting many unsavory types.

also the national monument thing, if people were walking around the lincoln memorial, or the holocaust museum, asking if anyone wanted to buy some CRACK, i'm sure that's a poor reflection of the spirit of hte nation, i don't think you can deny it, i mean do you think that any nation would want to come out and say, "yeah, come to our country, you can get lots of crack!" also along those lines, consider this, the areas around time square are tourist attractions, tourists come out in groups and families. how can a red light district be good for tourism? for attracting business and talent and the image of new york? a lot of income in new york is from tourism, why would a family want to bring their kids to new york to walk through a 10 block area where they are offered cocaine, heroin and casual sex? all those things are associated with New York and time square in teh 80's.

i think people are getting into the semantics of what i'm saying instead of focusing on the time square initiative itself. it was not only a program to get rid of sex shops but to overall clean up time squre, getting rid of hte crack, the hookers, the pimps the gangsters, and making it more tourist friendly, and improving the new york image. i'm FOR that program. regardless of your feelings towards porn, can you really say that the initiative itself was BAD for new york city? i don't think so. i've seen enough positive changes for me to vote for Rudy as mayor for life. because i knew how it was before, and i've seen it now, and it's better than ever.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker


It's opions like that that make me want to say.. then head to a 3rd world country for awhile.. see how you like it..

are you actually saying that if if dosen't affect me then I don't care??
WOW how naive can you be..
think about this...
You are walking down a mountain pass.. following a bunch of other hikers ..maybe 10.. and you see the first one get smashed to a plup by a rock slide... that dosen't affect you.. and then you see the 2 one get killed the same way.. and you think again.. dosen't affect me.. 3rd, 4th, and so on..now you are the last one.. and as you look up and see the rocks come crashing down..
I BET you would think.. "hmmmm... why didn't some one warn me about this.."

Life affects Life.. if you are wise enough to see it that is completely idiotic and not what i meant. does it bother you every time someone is killed? if so i bet you never have a restful day. and all this **** does not bother me, i obey/follow no one but myself. all the organizations/laws/morals/religions/bull**** mean nothing to me.

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 09:28 PM
and as far as the dumb little bastards who allow their hands to get chopped of deserve it. i f you dont try to stop somthing it will happen. if i were in that situation i would have kicked the ****er in the nuts a nd took my chances....insted of standing there waiting for my hands to be lobbed off..........cruel i know, but if you allow it........the way i see it is if you let somthing happen it will happen and if you let people take control/power over you then you are already dead in my eyes..........

lucifix
18th Nov 2001, 09:29 PM
and by the way Spirit, you are lower than **** and dont exist to me so stop replying to my posts

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 10:23 PM
HAHAHAHAHA!! YOU are a very funny young "man" this is a public forum devil boy.. get over yourself...LOL....
and yes it does bother me when a person dies.. but I also know that bad things happen.. sometime the "bad thing" is deserved, and if so I appalud it.. but when a person is murdered.. that is just plain sad..
as for you...
I would be willing to bet that you are 15-25.. still at home, no real job, no real future, no real girl in your life (rosey don't count), and for some reason you seem to belive that if it dosen't affect you then it dosen't matter... and maybe one day if you are lucky.. you will see that like I said..

Life affects life...

consider yourself schooled devil-boy..

you know you are starting to remind me of Aero.. but at least he could be open minded

Cactus
18th Nov 2001, 10:23 PM
[at lucifix]


hmmm, good reply to my pornography posts.

i have a problem with people who think they don't have to obey societal morals also. it's absolutely stupid to think that your actions can't be dictated by the government or your fellow man, or that their opinion has no bearing in your decision. you truly think you can be an independent creature? then why are you on the internet? the whole premise of the internet is that it's a community. community = society, community must exist within some confines of a social norm. humans are inherently social, no matter how much they like being alone. it's selfish to think that you simply can live free from other people. why are you on this BBS? if you're not social to begin with, or you don't obey society rules? being social requires you to obey constraints.

it's absolutely ridiculous to say taht if people don't like what they're subjected to, they should just rebel. it's so easy to say isn't it? i don't like the moon, we should blow it out of the sky. it's quite another when you have the muzzle of an AK 47 pointed in your face. you're talking tall, holding onto principle and being high and mighty, but in reality you've never encountered such a situation, and as such you have no right to judge the others in that situation. you have such a simplified and glorified view of how life should be, that it's almost comical. and i suppose that it's a good aspect of this country that people are allowed to be so detached from reality. you don't seem to be able to recognize that there are simply times in life when someone beats you and and you have no means to fight back.

and please don't reply in that fashion to anyone in my thread, it's unbecoming, and you are attacking the person, not the idea, you embody what is wrong with this country, people who always think they know better, people who always think they have the solution, people who think they're just inherently more right than others, gives not a second thought to the social structure and confine in which they live, act in arrogance and haste iwth their feet in the clouds and their heads up their asses. and THAT my friend, is the point of my original post, that people who have no idea how hard it is to make the world work, or how difficult it is to be pragmatic, think it fit to attack other people's ideas, tear down their work, becasue they think they know better, when they really know so little.

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
i obey/follow no one but myself. all the organizations/laws/morals/religions/bull**** mean nothing to me.

and that is your problem devil-boy...
kinda like the jew in pre-nazi germany.. they saw some of what was going onbut either didn't see the writing on the walls or didn't care what was happening in their own land.. and look what happened to them..

maybe the law banning people like you from having computers and inflicting yourself on intelligent peoples will sneek up on you.. and I wonder if anyone would care..

SpiritWalker
18th Nov 2001, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
........... and THAT my friend, is the point of my original post, that people who have no idea how hard it is to make the world work, or how difficult it is to be pragmatic, think it fit to attack other people's ideas, tear down their work, becasue they think they know better, when they really know so little.

/me gives golf claps to Cactus for this and the other well thought out replies that he seems to have coming out of his orrifices lately..

I would like to be able to do that as quickly... but I have to think at it more than him

QUALTHWAR
18th Nov 2001, 11:58 PM
Can i chime in here?

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 12:15 AM
i'm all about rhetoric... and don't ask about the other htings coming out of my other orifices...

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by QUALTHWAR
Can i chime in here?

by all means exhaulted king of windchimes.

Stilgar
19th Nov 2001, 12:22 AM
Introducing QUALTHWAR! the master of visual puns :>



Cactus : you might like to listen to Tool's Lateralus, (assuming you havent already ? ) it touches on the subjects you've brung up in this this topic... especially 'The grudge' ... to me this song is a great deconstruction of individualism... It really forced me to think alot more introspectively (almost too much recently) about my self and how I'm affecting others with my jugdements/actions etc






and something for you narcissits to think about...

"who told you not to listen ?" - JMS

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 12:26 AM
hmmm, JMS... my friend has those initials... but anyway... i read howard Zinn's "a people's history of the united states" the other day, and found something he wrote to be lasting in my head,

"the cry of the poor is not always just, but if you do not listen to them, you will never know what justice is."

that made me do quite a bit of soul-searching. i'll try to find the tool song.

Frostblood
19th Nov 2001, 02:18 AM
"and as far as the dumb little bastards who allow their hands to get chopped of deserve it. i f you dont try to stop somthing it will happen. if i were in that situation i would have kicked the ****er in the nuts a nd took my chances....insted of standing there waiting for my hands to be lobbed off..........cruel i know, but if you allow it........the way i see it is if you let somthing happen it will happen and if you let people take control/power over you then you are already dead in my eyes.........."

Lucifix, thats ridiculous. Are you saying that everything that happens is the fault of the victims???

Stilgar
19th Nov 2001, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
"and as far as the dumb little bastards who allow their hands to get chopped of deserve it. i f you dont try to stop somthing it will happen. if i were in that situation i would have kicked the ****er in the nuts a nd took my chances....insted of standing there waiting for my hands to be lobbed off..........cruel i know, but if you allow it........the way i see it is if you let somthing happen it will happen and if you let people take control/power over you then you are already dead in my eyes.........."

Lucifix, thats ridiculous. Are you saying that everything that happens is the fault of the victims???

I say we hire a bunch (six should do the trick) of tough goons to go round to his place, hold him down, then 'almost' chop his feet and hands off... see how alive he feels after that....

Cat Fuzz
19th Nov 2001, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
ok.......dude you need to chill. and look at the real enemy......gun shops/liquor stores/churches are more shady and unsavory.....imo


Your really trying to drag me into this again aren't you Luci?

SpiritWalker
19th Nov 2001, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Your really trying to drag me into this again aren't you Luci?

LUCI........HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..roflmao
ohhh my.....
THAT is a good one..

Frostblood
19th Nov 2001, 08:44 AM
Mind you, I can see where Lucifix is coming from...I strongly disagree but It is infuriating to see peopl getting millions of pounds in damages for getting bruised by a falling hazelnut or something...one burglar got awarded compensation for getting injured while on the job...things like that are just stupid but that doesnt by any means mean all victims are to blame for what happened to them.

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 10:53 AM
but consider this, how is it that most of the people who take the "let's not have rules, have everyone fend for themselves." method of life often have no idea how to actually fend for themselves if there were no rules.

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 11:13 AM
the people who i'm tired of are the one who bitch about AOL, yet still use it, bitch about microsoft, yet run windows on their computers, bitch about taxes, yet expect the government to pay for schools, magically out of nothing.

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
"and as far as the dumb little bastards who allow their hands to get chopped of deserve it. i f you dont try to stop somthing it will happen. if i were in that situation i would have kicked the ****er in the nuts a nd took my chances....insted of standing there waiting for my hands to be lobbed off..........cruel i know, but if you allow it........the way i see it is if you let somthing happen it will happen and if you let people take control/power over you then you are already dead in my eyes.........."

Lucifix, thats ridiculous. Are you saying that everything that happens is the fault of the victims??? no im not saying that.for example some dumbass rapes a woman. if the woman simply lies down and spreads her legs without fighting back well she didnt do anything to stop it, see my point? i would understand if the guy was armed or somthing, but they are cases where the woman gives in simply out of fear. and as for the hand chopping thing goes, i would have fit like hell if i knew they were going to chop my hands off, with an ak in my face or not. i think i was refering to people who let others bully/boss them around. im sure a little kid in that situation would have no idea what to do, so im sorry for being so cruel, BUT when it comes to adults we do have a decision.........

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Your really trying to drag me into this again aren't you Luci? no im not :lol:

Balton
19th Nov 2001, 11:44 AM
my initials are MJL....

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 11:45 AM
a little motto of mine: i dont listen to god, i dont listen to my parents, so ill be damned if i lsten to anyone else.........

Balton
19th Nov 2001, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
a little motto of mine: i dont listen to god, i dont listen to my parents, so ill be damned if i lsten to anyone else.........

I dont know why but thats kinda a good statement...

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Stilgar


I say we hire a bunch (six should do the trick) of tough goons to go round to his place, hold him down, then 'almost' chop his feet and hands off... see how alive he feels after that.... well lets ee 6 against 1, well i would fight back and that would probably result in my death......so my death=a release from this hell, hmmmm........send em over!!!

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Balton.de


I dont know why but thats kinda a good statement... it really is, for me anyway. i was raised in a christian home with loving parents, so if i didnt listen to them then why in the hell would i listen to anyone else?

Balton
19th Nov 2001, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
no im not saying that.for example some dumbass rapes a woman. if the woman simply lies down and spreads her legs without fighting back well she didnt do anything to stop it, see my point? i would understand if the guy was armed or somthing, but they are cases where the woman gives in simply out of fear. and as for the hand chopping thing goes, i would have fit like hell if i knew they were going to chop my hands off, with an ak in my face or not. i think i was refering to people who let others bully/boss them around. im sure a little kid in that situation would have no idea what to do, so im sorry for being so cruel, BUT when it comes to adults we do have a decision.........

I missed out the whole entire discussion but this is starting to get interesting.

first of you await from an adult that he will fight back. but there are lots of adults that dont have the guts! They would surrender. simple. Go out into a big shopping mall around the time of 12 o clock till 14 o clock, the time where pupils and working adults are busy. You'll see a lot of loosers(in life). maybe thats a bit hard but somebody whos already on 12 o clock hanging around with an beer and that now frequently for 12 yeras has thrown his life into a thrash can... thats how adults do theri decision....

Balton
19th Nov 2001, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
it really is, for me anyway. i was raised in a christian home with loving parents, so if i didnt listen to them then why in the hell would i listen to anyone else?

what did your parents do when you did not do what they wanted?
btw. my parents are very liberal and I can do what I want. rhey are giving me no time limit when i go out. And they are very understanding. So I have no reason to get mad(cant express it well today). If me parents ask me to bring the thrash out I'll do it cos they are doing much stuff for me. they have respect for me and i have respect for them. its soo simple...

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
[at lucifix]


hmmm, good reply to my pornography posts.

i have a problem with people who think they don't have to obey societal morals also. it's absolutely stupid to think that your actions can't be dictated by the government or your fellow man, or that their opinion has no bearing in your decision. you truly think you can be an independent creature? then why are you on the internet? the whole premise of the internet is that it's a community. community = society, community must exist within some confines of a social norm. humans are inherently social, no matter how much they like being alone. it's selfish to think that you simply can live free from other people. why are you on this BBS? if you're not social to begin with, or you don't obey society rules? being social requires you to obey constraints.

it's absolutely ridiculous to say taht if people don't like what they're subjected to, they should just rebel. it's so easy to say isn't it? i don't like the moon, we should blow it out of the sky. it's quite another when you have the muzzle of an AK 47 pointed in your face. you're talking tall, holding onto principle and being high and mighty, but in reality you've never encountered such a situation, and as such you have no right to judge the others in that situation. you have such a simplified and glorified view of how life should be, that it's almost comical. and i suppose that it's a good aspect of this country that people are allowed to be so detached from reality. you don't seem to be able to recognize that there are simply times in life when someone beats you and and you have no means to fight back.

and please don't reply in that fashion to anyone in my thread, it's unbecoming, and you are attacking the person, not the idea, you embody what is wrong with this country, people who always think they know better, people who always think they have the solution, people who think they're just inherently more right than others, gives not a second thought to the social structure and confine in which they live, act in arrogance and haste iwth their feet in the clouds and their heads up their asses. and THAT my friend, is the point of my original post, that people who have no idea how hard it is to make the world work, or how difficult it is to be pragmatic, think it fit to attack other people's ideas, tear down their work, becasue they think they know better, when they really know so little. hm, lets ee where to start piggy boy.........

why am i on this bbs? for mapping purposes only. i do post in the other stuff forum too but the main reason is mapping.

the ak in the face thing. well i would rather have my brains blown out than to live life WITHOUT ANY HANDS!!! and yes i have encountered a similar situation, staring down the barrel of a rifle and seeing the shell slowly come at me and rip its way through my stomach, replaying over and over for 11 ****ing years.

detached from reality? hell yea i am. reality bites :p

there are simply times in life when someone beats you and and you have no means to fight back. true but you CAN try!

well as far as attacking the person and not the idea goes: i learned from a very early age that if you are outside the norm that you cannot reason with someone in the norm. and i have been attacked, not my beliefs, but myself physically because of what i believe. I AM A PRODUCT OF YOUR SOCIETY!

Balton
19th Nov 2001, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by lucifix

there are simply times in life when someone beats you and and you have no means to fight back. true but you CAN try!


yes, if you try you at least dont loose your proudness. Or you win. often people just give up too early. I can remember when 3 bigger boys wanted to take my inline skates. I was standing on a damn ground that was ****ty to drive(i was before in a shop to get something). Well I started to say them that I am not going to hand them out the one boy wanted to grab me so i hit my face with the protectors in his face. his freinds were so perplexed that I could drive away. else they would have had me. I tried it and won. Btw. wearing your protection gera is GOOD! man thats already around 3 years ago....

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Balton.de


yes, if you try you at least dont loose your proudness. Or you win. often people just give up too early. I can remember when 3 bigger boys wanted to take my inline skates. I was standing on a damn ground that was ****ty to drive(i was before in a shop to get something). Well I started to say them that I am not going to hand them out the one boy wanted to grab me so i hit my face with the protectors in his face. his freinds were so perplexed that I could drive away. else they would have had me. I tried it and won. Btw. wearing your protection gera is GOOD! man thats already around 3 years ago.... see balton understands it!

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Your really trying to drag me into this again aren't you Luci? and just to make you feel easier, fuzz, i wasnt refering to all churches

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker
HAHAHAHAHA!! YOU are a very funny young "man" this is a public forum devil boy.. get over yourself...LOL....
and yes it does bother me when a person dies.. but I also know that bad things happen.. sometime the "bad thing" is deserved, and if so I appalud it.. but when a person is murdered.. that is just plain sad..
as for you...
I would be willing to bet that you are 15-25.. still at home, no real job, no real future, no real girl in your life (rosey don't count), and for some reason you seem to belive that if it dosen't affect you then it dosen't matter... and maybe one day if you are lucky.. you will see that like I said..

Life affects life...

consider yourself schooled devil-boy..

you know you are starting to remind me of Aero.. but at least he could be open minded lets see, im 22, my wife is 20 and my son 2. and if doesnt affect me directly then i dont give a damn. after im dead i dont give a **** what happens to this pathetic world...........

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker
....
and yes it does bother me when a person dies.. but I also know that bad things happen.. sometime the "bad thing" is deserved, and if so I appalud it..

you know you are starting to remind me of Aero.. but at least he could be open minded now THAT is a very scarey thing........i said it didnt bother me, but i sure as hell dont applaud it...........

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 01:14 PM
i feel it somewhat odd that you can uphold the dichotomy of simultaneously saying, "the world be damned" and have a child. you have a child, and i think if you chose parenthood, you would at least have some good wishes for your child, that he can grow up in a better environment than you have, that he can accomplish more than you have. why do you want to leave a world to your child where he constantly has to watch his back? why don't you want to leave your child a better place to live than the world was when you found it? i think it's the inherent wish of all parents to do so, and to that end, we must cooperate with society, society is only receptive to change from within than from without.

again you're mincing words with me, my question is really why you participate in organized society anyway? why do you map? cuz it's fun, and it lets other epeople see your work, it gives you a sense of accomplishment, all those things come from society, if not for the fact taht there are ears to hear you and eyes to see your work, why would you map or even speak? speech is useless when there are nobody to listen. i know why i'm here, because i know that there are people who listen and read, and communicate within the bounds of society and civility. if you feel yoruself entirely unbound by those things, then there is no real reason for you to do any of the things you do. think about it.

moreover, attacks by a few teens on one person is vastly different from attacks from a mob of people, or an organized government, how many rapes/murders do you suspect exist every year compared to the number of people killed by mobs or governments? ten thousand? a hundred thousand? a million? you compare that to what's going on every day in africa, in east timor, in the middle east, you think that's a large number? you're saying "well in tihs specific case when tehre are 3 people or less, in a mediumj to small frame and you are well built, and such and such conditions, you should fight back." can you possibly imagine how few situations in life are actually like that? and how many women honestly you think, don't fight back against a rapist? the number is so small it warrants no discussion. and i really dont' think it's right to marginalize suffering to say that well if they don't fight back they deserve it.

take another example. if i wanted to live "outside the social norm" by putting babies on spikes. should i be able to do that? should i be allowed to impale babies on spikes? sure it's sick, but hey, i'm outside the societal norm, i'm standing over here away from society. i don't have to operate by society's rules you know. of course in taht situation someone's going to come in and stop me, why the hell not? putting babies on spikes is not a tolerable act, we live in society, we share society's land and resources, when we buy a pair of shoes, it wasn't made by us, it was made by the shoemaker, who through a system of trade, and routing networks, infrastructure and systems of ownership made possible BY SOCIETY, only through this vast network of unseen routine actions coordinated BY SOCIETY are we able to obtain a pair of shoes. and as such, the "tax" we have to pay is that we obey society's rules to be a part of it, which include a rule against putting babies on spikes.

think about how often you patronize tihs society. you buy milk, you buy shoes, buy baby products, diapers... every time you buy those things, you are patronizing society, utilizing the social network that puts the products in your supermarket, you're buying into consumerism, you are utilizing hte resources of the world. you are not makign your own diapers or shoes or milk, you are not even going to drive down to the factories where each of those items are made and picking them up, you are buying it from a centralized, localized depository, shipped on an infrastructure, roads, rails, planes, made possible, not by your own hands, but by society. if you think you can simply live detached from society, you'd have to give up more than you think, and certainly more than you want. if you're not ready to start building your own cars from scratch, making your own steel, molding your own pistons, you will continue to patronize society. you have the right to question that society's policies, as i have, but you have no right to criticize the existence of that society. you can question specific actions, but still you must appreciate the underlying structure that society has provided for you and you so regularly employ to your advantage. to do otherwise cannot be justified.

furthermore, its really an act of leeching on society when you wan to continually patronize it while constantly bitching about the fact that it exists. you want to use it for the good and bash it. it's irresponsible. do you just walk out on your wife when you have a fight? no, you sit down and work it out, especially when you have a child. why is it different from society? do you just f*ck her and leave her? use her for the time being and then when it's inconvenient, jsut walk away? no, i dont' think so, if you do, then you're foolish AND irresponsible.

but i will agree with you on one thing, that you are indeed a product of this society, and it is good that people like you exist, because it reflects that the society is healthy, when ideas are not homogenous, and people are allowed to share them, njo matter how stupid they may seem to one party or another. that is a fundamental principle i will not question.

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 01:23 PM
i feel it somewhat odd that you can uphold the dichotomy of simultaneously saying, "the world be damned" and have a child. you have a child, and i think if you chose parenthood

I SAID WHEN I AM DEAD! and when i am dead i will have no knowledge of this world, get it? and besides death is only the begining..........

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 01:31 PM
you need to make ****ing smaller posts cactus.........

i dont think you understood the above statement at all. when im dead im dead, in death there is nothing, i will have no knowledge of what is happening on this earth that is why i dont care. yes i wish my son the best and hope this ****ty worl d is a better place when he becomes an adult. got it?

you said somthing about impaling babies or somthing.........well i honestly feel you SHOULD be allowed ro do whatever the hell you want to, no matter how cruel. besides it would be those babies parents that should protect them and NOT the govenments butll**** rules.............

Claw
19th Nov 2001, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
a little motto of mine: i dont listen to god, i dont listen to my parents, so ill be damned if i lsten to anyone else.........

I dont know why but thats kinda bull$hit...

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Claw


I dont know why but thats kinda bull$hit... uh, why? you are suppose to have the utmost respect for god and your parents, right? so if you dont have enough respect for them to abide by their rules, then why would you abide by anothers rules????

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 01:40 PM
i dont give a **** if you ****ers like me or not! i am not here to make friends! and as long as this is a FREE(yea right)country i will voice my goddamn opinion as often as i want as loud as i want and to whoever i ****ing want!

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 01:56 PM
i'm sorry reading is a chore for you, and i'm sorry you have a hard time understanding cohesive thought.

but don't you think that maybe, perhaps, there's just a chance that your children will be alive long after you're dead? and their children? should we f*ck them too? blow up the world? let them inherit ash? i'm sorry if htat's where you're coming from, then there's no room for intelligent intellectual discussion, merely grovelling by the galactically stupid.

you sit here arguing ideals, sure, the babies parents SHOULD protect them, people SHOULD protect thmselves from bullies, but you're all talk, you're rhetoric. sure the jews SHOULD have stood up to their NAZI overlords, right? and the fact that they didn't, makes them cowards that should have been gassed. and babies, oh what if their parents DONT" protect them? dont' we see enough examples of that in this country? kids being abandoned? who stands up for them? who stands up for hte disenfranchised? you only think about yourself, i've maintained this, you're selfish, arrogant, and everything that is wrong with humanity.

yes let's all go put babies on f*cking spikes now. f*cking idiot.

oh and don't participate in a flame war if you're not willing to read long posts. if multi-syllibic words bother you so much you never should have responded, you responded because you wanted your opinion heard, because you like the sound of your own voice. but it's again irresponsible to respond and then ignore everyone else's posts because tehy're too long. when people talk about moral degradation they're talking about the degradation of values, of tolerance, of in its essence, human arrogance and vanity, of the sheer irresponsibility of man, and we see them none more apparent than in you.

yes, babies on spikes.

Cactus
19th Nov 2001, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
i dont give a **** if you ****ers like me or not! i am not here to make friends! and as long as this is a FREE(yea right)country i will voice my goddamn opinion as often as i want as loud as i want and to whoever i ****ing want!


there you go again, the country is free, but you don't value that do you? as long as it is free to you, that's it, f*ck everybody else, f*ck your children, and those people who come after you, none of them matter, only you. true to your irresponsible nature.

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Cactus



there you go again, the country is free, but you don't value that do you? as long as it is free to you, that's it, f*ck everybody else, f*ck your children, and those people who come after you, none of them matter, only you. true to your irresponsible nature. close, no one matters except me and my immediate family.........

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:34 PM
well if their parents are sop stupid that they dont protect them then its the survival of the fittest. i look at the animal kingdom as an example as how we should live.

Claw
19th Nov 2001, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
uh, why? you are suppose to have the utmost respect for god and your parents, right? so if you dont have enough respect for them to abide by their rules, then why would you abide by anothers rules????

Blah. That's your Christian education speaking. You asked b4 why you should listen to anyone if you don't listen to your parents. Simple. Other people might have something more sensible to say. Might. But you'll never know if you don't listen.

I, too, have been given a Christian education although my parents aren't quite "believing" themselves. They just thought I should hear it and decide myself; besides, they agree with a few of the more sensible things Christianity has to offe, like "Thou shalt not kill" etc.
And while I turned my back on the religion itself, I did not become a complete a$$hole :rolleyes:
I have my own rules and by chance they aren't too far from common morality. The problem I have with socitety isn't its morality but the people's unwillingness to try and live up to the virtues they supposedly believe in.

As for parents protecting their children and not the government - dumbass.
That's the whole point of a government. It's an institutionalization of the people's will. So it makes sure everyything is done what the people want to be done and how they want it done (in theory), so don't have to worry about everything themselves. Same for butchers, shoemakers, etc. They all take care of your wishes in a way. If you had to do everything yourself, you wouldn't do any of it very good. So you have other people doing it for you, a specialist for every thing.

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:40 PM
ya know if the world was in adifferent state at the moment i think you all would be more willing to understand what i say, but as of now your bull**** pride is getting the best of you.......

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:43 PM
i didnt mean not to listen to other people. i simply meant if you wont follow the authority of your parents then why would abide by the goverments authority

Claw
19th Nov 2001, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
well if their parents are sop stupid that they dont protect them then its the survival of the fittest. i look at the animal kingdom as an example as how we should live.

Good point.

I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect :p

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:45 PM
yes let's all go put babies on f*cking spikes now

how did you know i was a fan of Vlad Dracul?

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Claw


Good point.

I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect :p im glad you understood that. am i really that hard to understand?? if so i will try to say things more acurately. this is just the way i am people, im not trying to come off as an hardass or anything........

lucifix
19th Nov 2001, 02:52 PM
cactus what i meant by "after i die i wont give a ****" is that i will cease to exist hence i cant give a **** because i am DEAD. i hope the best for my son and his offspring.......i love him more than anything in this world. he is the ONLY reason i havent taken my own life.....yet.......

Frostblood
19th Nov 2001, 02:55 PM
"I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect "

But of course. This is in humans as well, but unfortunatly for all of us the moral instinct is much weaker than the self preservation and self improvement drives...some animals however have social instincts which are dominant, ants being the most obvious examples. Of course, ants originally only grouped together so that the individual ants have a better chance of survival, but now they are inextricably linked...no ant could survive for long without other ants.

Frostblood
19th Nov 2001, 02:56 PM
Lucifix : I see what you mean, people should try to fight back, but if you were a little kid with a gun pointed at your head, I dont think that would be what was on your mind...and even if it was, what could you do? Just because someone doesn't fight back, does that mean they dont deserve any help?
As for not caring about what happens when you're gone, this seems to be the view of most people in the world, but think what the world would be like if Churchill had said "Screw the french, i'll be dead in 10 years anyway, who cares?"

Cactus : If someone wants to impale babys on spikes, they should be imprisoned, preferably for life. If on the other hand they are part of some cult that gets off on impaling each other on spikes, fine, let them ( as long as no-one was forced into it ). What people do of their own free will is theyre own choice and noone should have the right to prevent them from doing it, but if they try and drag anyone else into it then they must be stopped.

Claw
19th Nov 2001, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
i didnt mean not to listen to other people. i simply meant if you wont follow the authority of your parents then why would abide by the goverments authority

Because the government has power. I may decide to break certain rules, but I indeed fear punishment, which I consider wise.


Oh, well. I guess that isn't a very moral reason but I don't really respect the government much.

Cactus meant I should do something about it then. But I can't. To change something you need power, and to gain it within the system, you need certain abilities. Like charisma. And a certaain way of dealing with people and know which strings to pull. Not my field. I do not believe I have much chance to reach power within the system, so why bother trying? I can do other stuff with my time. Besides, I do believe the only way to change the bad things about society would be people to change. But I do not see any relevant change, really.
Actually, I do not even believe democracy to be such a great step ahead. I mean, our leaders just know now that tyrants are opposed, so they leave us a little room, and make us believe we had power. Only we don't. Most decisisons our government makes are li'll laws we don't even hear about, or they pass laws no matter how much people complain. We elected them, now they can basically do as they please. OH, in theory they shouldn't 'cos we may not elect them again. But that doesn't seem to frighten them much. That's because most people are indeed stupid and easily manipulated. And I do not know whi I should elect instead. Our former opposition hasn't porven better than our former government.
Argh, whatever.
The problem is, as I said b4, people. They suck. There may be persons I like, but people are assholes, and don't tell me about how sympathetic everyone was after the WTC incident. People always discover their "good sides" at such times. It's how they behave in everyday life that matters. Just think of this firm owner we hear about in Germany who lost a good many emloyees who were working in the WTC. He immediately promised to tace care of the families of the deceased employees, and about a week later he had already cancelled their paycheckes and didn't raise a finger to help anyone, claiming he had to think of his surviving workers. I hear he was interviewed in his penthouse in Manhattan. Hah. I am so impressed, capitalist pig.

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
Lucifix : I see what you mean, people should try to fight back, but if you were a little kid with a gun pointed at your head, I dont think that would be what was on your mind...and even if it was, what could you do? Just because someone doesn't fight back, does that mean they dont deserve any help?
As for not caring about what happens when you're gone, this seems to be the view of most people in the world, but think what the world would be like if Churchill had said "Screw the french, i'll be dead in 10 years anyway, who cares?"

. i do care what happens after i am dead for now, BUT after i am deas im incapable of careing because im dead, is it that hard to understand? the kids fighting back thing that i said WAS wrong, not much a kid can do, but adults can fight back if they choose to. so if they dont choose to fight back well what happens to them is their own fault imo. if i was a woman getting raped i would rather fight back and risk being killed than just laying there saying "go ahead and get it over with"...........

Cactus
20th Nov 2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
cactus what i meant by "after i die i wont give a ****" is that i will cease to exist hence i cant give a **** because i am DEAD. i hope the best for my son and his offspring.......i love him more than anything in this world. he is the ONLY reason i havent taken my own life.....yet.......

as far as that goes, i think you are appreciating the fact that life has things to offer, it's a grim view that your son is the only thing it has to offer, but as long as you have something i think there's hope.

bear with me, i'm going to go off on a rant because i've had a really bad night

i'm in the math/econ major. i plan to go into finance. my future is crap cuz the field is dying lately, cut-backs, etc. my courses suck, as of last night, i seriously wanted to kill myself. problem sets are a bitch, and no matter how hard i try the rest of hte class far surpasses my skills and if i have a C on my transcript then forget about getting a job at an investment bank...

however, i saw a sunset a few days ago, and i thought to myself, "if this was the last sunset the earth sees, it's fine because its beauty alone has graced the world." iot was amazing, the sky was cyan, and clows were streaks of bright pink, and the sun was this red, not orange, not yellow, beet red ball off to the horizon. it made me think that there was something beyond ourselves, beyond the immediate, hope for the rest of man, hope for the earth, hope to endure.

i think you see it too, in your son, you live forever in your children, it's your contribution to the world. the persistence to endure is the essence of the individual thing. and in one form or another, through hope, through dreams, through our young, we live on. that is the essence of individual being. and whatever form it takes, as long as it's there, that's an expectation for the future, that is the hope that drives, the tie that binds.

Balton
20th Nov 2001, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Cactus

however, i saw a sunset a few days ago, and i thought to myself, "if this was the last sunset the earth sees, it's fine because its beauty alone has graced the world." iot was amazing, the sky was cyan, and clows were streaks of bright pink, and the sun was this red, not orange, not yellow, beet red ball off to the horizon. it made me think that there was something beyond ourselves, beyond the immediate, hope for the rest of man, hope for the earth, hope to endure.


each morning when i wake up i can see from my bed trough the window the same sky. I am always argueing with myself now if i go to school or not. I always decide to go. Its so sad that I cant enjoy a day how i want it...

Cat Fuzz
20th Nov 2001, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
......... but as of now your bull**** pride is getting the best of you.......



and the pot calls the kettle black. :rolleyes:

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz




and the pot calls the kettle black. :rolleyes: shut up fuzz :p

SpiritWalker
20th Nov 2001, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
the people who i'm tired of are the one who bitch about AOL, yet still use it, bitch about microsoft, yet run windows on their computers, bitch about taxes, yet expect the government to pay for schools, magically out of nothing.


looks like somone is thinking... good job.. I do like the way you think sir...

SpiritWalker
20th Nov 2001, 06:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lucifix
no im not saying that.for example some dumbass rapes a woman. if the woman simply lies down and spreads her legs without fighting back well she didnt do anything to stop it, see my point? i would understand if the guy was armed or somthing, but they are cases where the woman gives in simply out of fear.



that statment ALONE proves what kind of dumbass you really are
Seems like you are saying that if a person is tormented by a rapist without a weapon.. then it is HER fault...


and as for the hand chopping thing goes, i would have fit like hell if i knew they were going to chop my hands off, with an ak in my face or not. i think i was refering to people who let others bully/boss them around. im sure a little kid in that situation would have no idea what to do, so im sorry for being so cruel, BUT when it comes to adults we do have a decision.........

and the kids/helpless people are the ones that deserve help.. but you are saying that it just dosen't matter and that is was you are a toad..

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 07:55 PM
"that statment ALONE proves what kind of dumbass you really are
Seems like you are saying that if a person is tormented by a rapist without a weapon.. then it is HER fault... "

yes that is EXACTLY what i am saying. no it isnt her fault that it happened, but it is her fault if she didnt do anything to stop it.......

ya know what spirit? you can sit there hiding behind your little monitor and critisize me all you want but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

Claw
20th Nov 2001, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
point taken. i should clarify. my liberal use of the word "porn" is an oversimplification that is going to haunt me, so i'm going to try to explain it here. pornography, in of itself is fine. peep shows, fine too, strip bars, legitimate businesses. i think the best word to characterize really time square before the time square intitiative, is not "row of porn shops" but rather, "red light district" which has a different meaning in the US than in the rest of the world. in the US, it seems to include porn shops, etc. in the rest of the world however, red light district basically means prostitution, and such shady business.


It seems to me your clarification also clarified the source of the problems you have on the far side of the ocean. Throwing things together thaat don't have to belong together. These things are associated only because you associtae them, and therefore tend to accumulate in one place.
If prostitution wasn't a crime, it wouldn't attract so much shady business, too.

In Germany, we don't have such conglomerations usually 'cept those old-grown like (in)famous St. Pauli in Hamburg.
And by grantig legal rights to prostitution, it is also easier for the government to keep an eye on the ongoings , meaning it'S all cleaner and safer and all in all less "shady"

I also noted in the remainder of your posts you again combine my words with your thoughts which isn't appropriate since we were talking about different things all along.
You caught me with the monument though, 'cos what I wanted to say - but forgot due to my tired state - was that there are differend kinds of landmarks, monuments that we want to show what we are proud of, and "living landmarks" that show our life as is, not ideals, and that is what I meant.
And if that looks bad, there is propably a reaon for it, and I do not think you really solved the problem, you just shoved it aside.

Ya see, there is actually a bothrel very close to where I live, and my school too. At least it used to be there, I don't know really; but 13yrs old schoolboys tend to get to know such things :p and it was there all the time I went to school I knwo that.
Also, I meantioned the pornshops downtown, and there are quite a number of them in some places, acutally I know for sure 'cos that is also where all the PC shops are, close to the central station. Easily accessible for travellers I suppose ;)
I do not feel, however, this is a bad area really.

What did I want to say? Oh, well. As you appear to be a reasonable person usually, you'll make something of it :p

:cool:

Cat Fuzz
20th Nov 2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
shut up fuzz :p

Hey, I'm just happy to be on the OUTSIDE of this little gang beating. :D

Claw
20th Nov 2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
(...) but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

I don't see why.

Actually quite the opposite I believe, my p00r mislead friend. THere is many a thing I dislike about people, but the lack of willpower is not one of them. Quite the opposite, I feel constantly irritated by people claiming that whoever isn't capable of dealing with certain situations (by definition of speaker) deseves being stamped on; usually those are the people who do the actual stamping.

I am a socialist. Only I doubt humans won't spoil anything the way they are now, so it doesn't really matter.
And while many people think communism failed because it was the wrong idea, I am certain it is not the ideal but the people's failure to live up to it that ruined it, and capitalism didn't triumph either, it's more like a rotten building, standing but bound to crumble.
Many people believe capitalism has made us rich, but in many ways it has made us very poor indeed.

Damn, getting too philosophic for my own good... :p

Claw
20th Nov 2001, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz

Hey, I'm just happy to be on the OUTSIDE of this little gang beating. :D

Come get some :stick:

SpiritWalker
20th Nov 2001, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
ya know what spirit? you can sit there hiding behind your little monitor and critisize me all you want but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment.........

Cat Fuzz
20th Nov 2001, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker


how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment.........




YEAH BAY-BEE!!! /me gives SW a high fiver

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:35 PM
yea probably half the people on death row are mentaly ill and should be in an institution getting help and not waiting for someone to take their life away. we are NOT god, its not up to us to judge who is fit to live or die. if god wants the bastards dead im sure he can do it...........he slaughter millions of people according to the bible........

Cactus
20th Nov 2001, 09:35 PM
also, yes i think it is indeed shoving the problem aside, however, i recognize that prostitution is the oldest profession in the world, and there are likely to be bad neighborhoods for hookers and drugs in any city. however, since it is a universal truth, then ought we not make an attempt to maximize social welfare with that factored into the equation? that is, allow for teh existence of such places, however, simply not in midtown manhattan? it's foolish to not recognize that these places HAVE to exist. however on a uniform level, we can have them exist in bad neighborhoods, thereby maximizing social welfare because if those neighborhoods are already bad, their land value is low, etc. vs. the high land value gained by the office spaces when time square became reputable, it seemed a worthy trade-off, and that's why i considered the time square initiative a success, not because it entirely got rid of those things from the city, you can still buy drugs or hookers, but because it shifted the whole structure of the city in a way that was condusive to growth.

Cactus
20th Nov 2001, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Claw


It seems to me your clarification also clarified the source of the problems you have on the far side of the ocean. Throwing things together thaat don't have to belong together. These things are associated only because you associtae them, and therefore tend to accumulate in one place.
If prostitution wasn't a crime, it wouldn't attract so much shady business, too.



i conceed that, but don't blame it on me, it's the damned americans and their twisted language, it wasn't my first language... =P

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:37 PM
and i think it is very odd to have two christians who support that. im not saying they dont deserve it but doesnt the bible say to love everyone?

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by The Spiritwalker


how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment......... and thats one of the many reasons i hate the goverment. its not their ****ing decision! example if someone killed a family member of mine i wouldnt go whining to the police, i would get a sawed off boublebarrel hunt their ass down and return the favor! we shouldnt depend on someone to protect us. if we are so pathetic that we cant take care of our individual selves then i pray that the apocalypse is near............

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:48 PM
i hate humans.........**** YOU GOD!

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:54 PM
dont quit now! come on! give me HELL! keep pushing PUSH ME OF THE GODDAMN EDGE!!!

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 09:55 PM
ive been of my medication over 3 months...all i need is a spark to ignite the fuse..........

Stilgar
20th Nov 2001, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Cactus


a
i'm in the math/econ major. i plan to go into finance. my future is crap cuz the field is dying lately, cut-backs, etc. my courses suck, as of last night, i seriously wanted to kill myself. problem sets are a bitch, and no matter how hard i try the rest of hte class far surpasses my skills and if i have a C on my transcript then forget about getting a job at an investment bank...

however, i saw a sunset a few days ago, and i thought to myself, "if this was the last sunset the earth sees, it's fine because its beauty alone has graced the world." iot was amazing, the sky was cyan, and clows were streaks of bright pink, and the sun was this red, not orange, not yellow, beet red ball off to the horizon. it made me think that there was something beyond ourselves, beyond the immediate, hope for the rest of man, hope for the earth, hope to endure.



Welcome to my world....every day, every fukn year.... :)
If I can truly say that there's one thing that drives me the most, it's the enviroment I live in... and I need it ! ...for the time being...
My favoured profession (games :D) requires me to seek an education from those willing to share knowledge over the internet ( most of it from friendly people in the US ) there just isnt any other way.... living in a city popluated by 120,000 people, in a country where wanting to help write games isn't something anybody wants to teach ( it's generally laughed at ) a place where there is basically ZERO opportunity for games developers.
I have to have something else to get my 'motor runnin' ....to help me motivate myself with positive thoughts that If I can get good enough I can get a job overseas and actually be rewarded for my efforts instead of being laughed at and looked down upon for my impractical career choices. Still, I have to be open and attentive to recieve the mental energy boost that I need to endure ( the recent birth of my niece is another positive factor that I needn't explain )
It's taken a few years but I'm learning how to make the most of a place that's considered a backwards hole economically.... good for tourism and nothing else...
Im not the best at putting this **** into words, and it might be hard for you to relate to new zealand's landscape ? ...but I think we could on the same boat, or atleast heading in the same direction regarding faith and the gift of being alive.

Stilgar
20th Nov 2001, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
ive been of my medication over 3 months...all i need is a spark to ignite the fuse..........

you are the spark ;) ......and the fuse

Cat Fuzz
20th Nov 2001, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
and thats one of the many reasons i hate the goverment. its not their ****ing decision! example if someone killed a family member of mine i wouldnt go whining to the police, i would get a sawed off boublebarrel hunt their ass down and return the favor! we shouldnt depend on someone to protect us. if we are so pathetic that we cant take care of our individual selves then i pray that the apocalypse is near............


Then the guy you just wasted has a brother. He smokes you. Your bro or other family member goes and offs your killer, etc. etc. Frickin Hatfield and McCoys on a national scale in no time.

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Cat Fuzz



Then the guy you just wasted has a brother. He smokes you. Your bro or other family member goes and offs your killer, etc. etc. Frickin Hatfield and McCoys on a national scale in no time. in the end does it really matter? no. a lot of innocent people are imprisoned and executed....a lot of people that shouldnt be there in the first place.

like i said early in this thread, i really dont want to discuss this ****.......i have let it go to far. no one understands me so there is really no reason to try.........and i also said i wasnt here to make friends, but im also not here to make enemys.....i have enough already. ignore me, call me childish/stupid/satanist/whatever the **** you want to call me. i have delt with this **** for 22 ****ing years and my skin keeps getting thicker. i will be released from this hell soon enough......

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 11:41 PM
when i first joined this forum i thought i would find somewhat like minded people. and all i found were hypocritic idiots, christians that will surely be in hell long before i get there and ****ing assholes........with a few exceptions. i will step out of your way and retire from mapping and the ut scene in general.......HAPPY NOW?!?!

lucifix
20th Nov 2001, 11:53 PM
What do you mean, "I don't believe in God"?
I talk to him every day.
What do you mean, "I don't support your system"?
I go to court when I have to.
What do you mean, "I can't get to work on time"?
I got nothing better to do
And, what do you mean, "I don't pay my bills"?
Why do you think I'm broke? Huh?
If there's a new way,
I'll be the first in line.
But, it better work this time.

What do you mean, "I hurt your feelings"?
I didn't know you had any feelings.
What do you mean, "I ain't kind"?
I'm just not your kind.
What do you mean, "I couldn't be president,
Of the United States of America"?
Tell me something, it's still "We the people", right?

If there's a new way
I'll be the first in line,
But, it better work this time.

Can you put a price on peace?
Peace,
Peace sells...,
Peace,
Peace sells...,
Peace sells...,but who's buying?

Chrysaor
21st Nov 2001, 12:19 AM
Huh? what did i miss?

lucifix
21st Nov 2001, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
Huh? what did i miss? apparently no one likes the "real" me so im leaving the nc/bu forums..........

Cactus
21st Nov 2001, 12:41 AM
eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

how many people really understand *me*? i don't think any of you know how f*cked in hte head i really am... only difference between me and you is that i think with my head and not with my heart. you wear your feelings on your sleeves, you're bound ot get hurt. you're angry about a lot of the things i'm angry about ,i know the problems to which you refer. but i think the best way to remedy the system is by changing it from within, not a radical overthrow, look at hte french revolution, uprising after uprising, overthrowing the dictators, then overthrowing the men who overthrew the dictators, then overthrowing those guys, there's no end. you have a fire that burns in you and that is your drive, but you can't let that flame drive *you*. you let that be your motivation, but you can't let that dictate your actions. think with your head, cost benefit analysis. and then and only then, will you change hte world, mold the world to your will.

Cat Fuzz
21st Nov 2001, 12:45 AM
Don't leave, Lucifix! I'm not being sarcastic either. I've felt the urge to blow this joint myself but its alot more fun hanging out here in the forums and havin a few laughs.

Frostblood
21st Nov 2001, 03:22 AM
"i do care what happens after i am dead for now, BUT after i am deas im incapable of careing because im dead, is it that hard to understand? the kids fighting back thing that i said WAS wrong, not much a kid can do, but adults can fight back if they choose to. so if they dont choose to fight back well what happens to them is their own fault imo. if i was a woman getting raped i would rather fight back and risk being killed than just laying there saying "go ahead and get it over with"..........."

True...you just gave the wrong impression with your first post. Don't leave by the way...we've all been embroiled in arguments like this.

Cactus : Always make your decisions based on emotions, but never your own. I know what you mean about changing the system from within, but revoloutions do work...just look at afganistan. But thats a different kind of problem, the problems in the west won't be solved by revoloution or "anarchist" kids.

Stilgar
21st Nov 2001, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Frostblood
[b]
Cactus : Always make your decisions based on emotions, but never your own. I know what you mean about changing the system from within, but revoloutions do work...just look at afganistan. But thats a different kind of problem, the problems in the west won't be solved by revoloution or "anarchist" kids.

But even then other peoples emotions can be misleading, even purposely so.... that's something I've learn't the hard way while flatting with the same people for too long. To me that quote sounds like another dogma that is just a part of a bigger picture of knowledge, trust and wisdom.


On the other note I agree with you insofar as that I believe revolutions have their place, and the west is so embedded in it's own ways that a revolution would be of little use to us.
If we can push for change by moving through the system until we are ones holding the leash instead of feeling sorry for ourselves for being subordinate, and trying to bite the hand that feeds us, then maybe we can find new ways to realign our world views and tackle problems from within our own society instead of hypocritically pointing the big finger.

Cactus
21st Nov 2001, 03:56 AM
but how stable do you think the afghani revolution is going to be? without international forces that are pulling for "calm"? this really goes back to what i was saying, the international community is the big brother that's the only thing stops the northern alliance from killing everybody that's not one of them, and the only thing that is forcing the northern alliance to participate in a multi-ethnic government. without those rules and guidelines, there would be no civility, there would be no mercy, there will be tribal wars after tribal wars.

jreister
21st Nov 2001, 04:59 AM
It becomes a second Somalia IMO. The signs are there. I hope the afghans are more intelligent.

jreister
21st Nov 2001, 05:07 AM
how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment.........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






YEAH BAY-BEE!!! /me gives SW a high fiver



very christian. Jesus surely would be the same opinion.
paulus would sit his three to life sentence and the catholic church would never exist
(maybe it ould have been better)

Cat Fuzz
21st Nov 2001, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by jreister


very christian. Jesus surely would be the same opinion.
paulus would sit his three to life sentence and the catholic church would never exist
(maybe it ould have been better)



That would be fine with me. The catholic church is nothing but a giant beaurocracy (sp?) that is misleading millions with their rituals and rules.

jreister
21st Nov 2001, 06:56 AM
At least they (the catholics) contributed a lot of fine art, architecture and music, whereas the protestants and the puritans tend to be dry and bloodless.
Of course their rituals are quite silly, but at least they make a great show of it!

Stilgar
21st Nov 2001, 08:21 AM
Cat Fuzz: it's bureaucracy

Frostblood
21st Nov 2001, 09:29 AM
Cactus : there will be teething problems...but it will be stable in the long run I think...and anyway, how do you get rid of a regime like the taliban without some sort of violence or at least open rebellion against them?

Stilgar : Ultimatly, all decisions should be based on emotions because they are the only fundamental decider beteween good and bad, desirable and undesirable, positive and negative...nothing has a meaning or a value unless we give it one. Of course, whos emotions you base your decisions on in a particular situation is the big question, and one I can't answer.

If you believe in God ( which I do ), I think the only reason He cares about things in this world is because we care...events on this level would be meaningless to an omnipotent being but our thoughts might matter more.

Cactus
21st Nov 2001, 11:36 AM
on hiatus for thanxgiving, back sunday, don't get into a religious thing. i warned of this before. or do if you want, since i won't be around to read it.

Stilgar
21st Nov 2001, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood


Stilgar : Ultimatly, all decisions should be based on emotions because they are the only fundamental decider beteween good and bad, desirable and undesirable, positive and negative...nothing has a meaning or a value unless we give it one. Of course, whos emotions you base your decisions on in a particular situation is the big question, and one I can't answer.

*snip* for Cactus :>

Sometimes my decisions are based on knowledge, and not on anybodys emotions, not even mine.....
While I believe some knowledge is based on emotion, the rest seems far from it :)

Cactus
21st Nov 2001, 09:20 PM
all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you.

Stilgar
21st Nov 2001, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Cactus
all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you.

it's a shame alot of younger generations see this as 'minimal effort' - 'maximum rewards' and this in turn contributes to the what some like to call Instantism.... Instantism feeds capitalism unlike anything we've ever seen before..... apart from war...

Cactus
22nd Nov 2001, 12:09 AM
ah but you misunderstand, it's narrow to limit "benefit" to only the monetary, because that just assumes the people won't be socially conscious to other issues. however, this is certainly not hte case, nor are the two concepts mutually exclusive.

one method to think about it is just using the example i gave iwth the time square initiative, it's maximizing social welfare, a benefit, for everyone.

the other, and the way i justify it to myself is this: i consider morality and my conscience, when they are soothed, a natural benefit, it makes me feel good when i know i'm not out there putting babies on spikes. in fact, there's no amount of "benefit" that putting babies on spikes can bring me, at the "cost" of me having to live with msyelf for all eternity knowing that i put babies on spikes. morality can factor into this equation in such a way that doing immoral things are a "cost" to you. and if morality is ingrained in a person's mind correctly, it should. and that is what i mean.

ah thanksgiving break... must... sleep....

Cat Fuzz
22nd Nov 2001, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Stilgar
Cat Fuzz: it's bureaucracy



LOL Thanks dude. Although, I'll never remember that. :D

Stilgar
22nd Nov 2001, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Cactus
ah but you misunderstand, it's narrow to limit "benefit" to only the monetary, because that just assumes the people won't be socially conscious to other issues. however, this is certainly not hte case, nor are the two concepts mutually exclusive.

one method to think about it is just using the example i gave iwth the time square initiative, it's maximizing social welfare, a benefit, for everyone.

the other, and the way i justify it to myself is this: i consider morality and my conscience, when they are soothed, a natural benefit, it makes me feel good when i know i'm not out there putting babies on spikes. in fact, there's no amount of "benefit" that putting babies on spikes can bring me, at the "cost" of me having to live with msyelf for all eternity knowing that i put babies on spikes. morality can factor into this equation in such a way that doing immoral things are a "cost" to you. and if morality is ingrained in a person's mind correctly, it should. and that is what i mean.

ah thanksgiving break... must... sleep....

but you see, I dont limit that to monetary benefits, I said it's a shame that some do :P

Stilgar
22nd Nov 2001, 02:09 AM
The self governing sense of morality you talk about sure does make alot of sense.... but there are many more things about us which simply dont make sense.....and can't be confined to the sphere of moral relativity.... if that makes sense.... :D

Frostblood
22nd Nov 2001, 02:25 AM
"all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you."

A cost-benefit anylysis in moral terms. Will this action ultimatly do more good than evil? Its like I said about bin laden, his actions might ultimatly do more good than evil although that was the opposite of the intent. There is a fundamental good or bad, right or wrong, but only because we complicate matters by being sentient and saying there is. Pain is merely an electrical signal but because we have evolved to consider it a "bad" thing, causing pain is "wrong". In cases of conflict of views the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This doesn't mean that the 'moral majority' is always right, but that whatever action causes the least pain/most benefit is the right one. Of course, this doesnt lead to much personal gain but if everyone did it...

lucifix
22nd Nov 2001, 02:51 AM
[/b]A cost-benefit anylysis in moral terms. Will this action ultimatly do more good than evil? Its like I said about bin laden, his actions might ultimatly do more good than evil although that was the opposite of the intent. There is a fundamental good or bad, right or wrong, but only because we complicate matters by being sentient and saying there is. Pain is merely an electrical signal but because we have evolved to consider it a "bad" thing, causing pain is "wrong". In cases of conflict of views the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This doesn't mean that the 'moral majority' is always right, but that whatever action causes the least pain/most benefit is the right one. Of course, this doesnt lead to much personal gain but if everyone did it... [/B][/QUOTE]

i always wondered if we were taught that things such as pain werent bad would it really bothere us. we may have saw pain as a *good* thing along with pleasure/happiness/etc.......just some of the odd **** i think about ;)

Frostblood
22nd Nov 2001, 01:59 PM
Thats a very good question Lucifix...I think that whatever we are told pain will always be considered "bad" and sex and power will always be "good" because it is so deeply ingrained in the mind, by evoloution. Almost all human beheivior is geared towards survival and reproduction and trying to convince people that something that they have "believed" since the brain first evolved would fail completely.

lucifix
22nd Nov 2001, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Frostblood
Thats a very good question Lucifix...I think that whatever we are told pain will always be considered "bad" and sex and power will always be "good" because it is so deeply ingrained in the mind, by evoloution. Almost all human beheivior is geared towards survival and reproduction and trying to convince people that something that they have "believed" since the brain first evolved would fail completely. exactly, its all in the brain.i think everything is in our heads. like the "liars" idont know the medical term, but you know what i mean, they can actually make their lies be the truth in their own minds. they just dont stick to their story they actually believe their own lies are the truth.......i dont think i explained that good, but oh well :lol:

Frostblood
22nd Nov 2001, 02:18 PM
I think I know what you mean...:confused:

The mind is all in the brain, but the soul comes from somewhere else...I can't believe that conciousness could just pop into existance from what is on a fundamental level exactly the same as anything else...

diddlysquat
24th Nov 2001, 11:09 AM
Ask me what I feel, and I will tell you what I think.
ask me what I think, and I will tell you how I feel.
Ask me about evil, and I willl point at you and me,
Ask me about good, I will say, only spam is real.

Frostblood
24th Nov 2001, 01:55 PM
<wipes tear from eye>
Its beautiful...sob...

:)

Cat Fuzz
24th Nov 2001, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by lucifix
exactly, its all in the brain.i think everything is in our heads. like the "liars" idont know the medical term, but you know what i mean, they can actually make their lies be the truth in their own minds. they just dont stick to their story they actually believe their own lies are the truth.......i dont think i explained that good, but oh well :lol:


I believe you are refering to a sociopath.

JTRipper
25th Nov 2001, 05:10 PM
No, a sociopath is afflcted with a disorder that affects their social behaviour - someone you'd call anti-social. Tomas Harris' Hannibal Lecter is an extreme example of a sociopath. I think Lucifix is referring to (and you're thinking of) a pathological liar.

Squint aka Hellfire
19th Dec 2001, 01:58 PM
U mean Anti-Disestablishmentarianism!!!!!

Frostblood
19th Dec 2001, 02:06 PM
j00 spamma :P