PDA

View Full Version : Don't make me sick.


Dances with Flak
4th Oct 2001, 11:15 PM
Epic, Legend, or whoever owns them has the right to not want their unfinished work floating around the web.

Planet Unreal and any other web site has the right to try to assist the above in keeping it from spreading.

BUT PUUUUUULLLLLLEASE don't try to give us a lecture on morals.

People want this game more than any other game ever. I bought a Geforce 3 months ago for one reason only, so I'd be ready for Unreal 2 when it came out.

I haven't played the pre alpha nor do I know where to get it. But make no mistake.... if I knew where to download it, I'd be downloading it right now no matter how big the file was or how slow the server was.

To equate that to stealing is insane. I AM GOING TO BUY THE GAME THE DAY IT COMES OUT NO MATTER WHAT. So will everyone else who has downloaded the pre alpha. Epic, Legend, whoever else are going to get their money.

As a matter of fact... if Epic were smart.... they'd go ahead and start selling the game right now. Charge 60 bucks a pop, with free upgrades as the game progresses. Let's face it, everyone does that to some extent now anyway. When's the last time you bought a finished game that didn't have a patch within a month of its release?

If Epic started selling the game now.... they wouldn't have to wait to start making money off it. They wouldn't have to worry about the deadline nearly as much. They wouldn't have to leave out features because they have to get the game out the door and start making some money off it.

I don't even care if there were only one level, or even half a level, I'd buy the game right here and now if I could.

So don't tell all us loyal fans that bought Unreal, Unreal Gold, and Unreal Tournament.... the very people that made it even possible to make an Unreal 2.... that we are morally bankrupt thieves if we download this 'stolen' pre alpha. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a liar or not a fan. (Go ahead liars, make yourself look like an idiot and start replying how you wouldn't. Everyone who reads your post will be thinking, "What a friggin' lying 'tard.")

So while I understand PU's stance in assisting Epic, save the boyscout speeches for your mom.

Tetris L
4th Oct 2001, 11:52 PM
A general remark: Was it really necessary to start a new thread about it when there is already a thread about the exact same topic a few lines down the list of topics. (http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83999)


The opinions about the alpha even among hardcore Unreal fans vary widely. Some few claim that they don't do anything wrong at all when they download and distribute it. Many see that strictly reading the law they do something illegal, but they still do it because they love the game and feel that they don't do much harm. Another large group say they don't even want to download it because they don't wanna spoil their expectations for the game by looking at something raw. Another group say they don't download it because they feel it not only illegal but also immoral and respectless to Legend. All of these groups (except the 1st one IMHO) have good arguments pro and against. This case isn't black or white. It's all shades of grey.

Originally posted by Dances with Flak
As a matter of fact... if Epic were smart.... they'd go ahead and start selling the game right now.
That's so totally stupid, you can't possibly be serious about it.

Zaccix
5th Oct 2001, 06:22 AM
Epic, Legend, or whoever owns them has the right to not want their unfinished work floating around the web.

Planet Unreal and any other web site has the right to try to assist the above in keeping it from spreading.

Absolutely right.

BUT PUUUUUULLLLLLEASE don't try to give us a lecture on morals.

Who's lecturing?

People want this game more than any other game ever. I bought a Geforce 3 months ago for one reason only, so I'd be ready for Unreal 2 when it came out.

I haven't played the pre alpha nor do I know where to get it. But make no mistake.... if I knew where to download it, I'd be downloading it right now no matter how big the file was or how slow the server was.

That would make you a thief, then.

To equate that to stealing is insane. I AM GOING TO BUY THE GAME THE DAY IT COMES OUT NO MATTER WHAT. So will everyone else who has downloaded the pre alpha. Epic, Legend, whoever else are going to get their money.

As I've said before, those who were going to buy U2 upon its release would probably still do so even if this alpha wasn't leaked. This point is irrelevant.

As a matter of fact... if Epic were smart.... they'd go ahead and start selling the game right now. Charge 60 bucks a pop, with free upgrades as the game progresses. Let's face it, everyone does that to some extent now anyway. When's the last time you bought a finished game that didn't have a patch within a month of its release?

You've got to be kidding me, right? You're saying that Epic and Legend should release an unfinished, buggy game and present it as the finished article? I'm sure your school teachers praised you for handing in incomplete homework, or don't you have any memory of school?

If Epic started selling the game now.... they wouldn't have to wait to start making money off it. They wouldn't have to worry about the deadline nearly as much. They wouldn't have to leave out features because they have to get the game out the door and start making some money off it.

Yeah, and by declaring the game as finished and ready to be sold (which in this case would be the same thing), they'd be under the scrutiny of magazines, websites and the general public. I wonder how many marks over zero U2 would get in its current state. You clearly have no idea of how these things work. Look at Tribes 2. It was pushed out early by Sierra, 6 months early. The constant patching of the game and overall problems it's had have become a farce.

You also don't have any idea of the creative effort that goes into a game such as Unreal 2. It's not just all about money and selling the game. Game studios such as Legend treat their work as art, as a team-based creative process. It's the distributors who look at the bottom line, not the studio.

I don't even care if there were only one level, or even half a level, I'd buy the game right here and now if I could.

"A fool and his money are easily parted".

So don't tell all us loyal fans that bought Unreal, Unreal Gold, and Unreal Tournament.... the very people that made it even possible to make an Unreal 2.... that we are morally bankrupt thieves if we download this 'stolen' pre alpha. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a liar or not a fan. (Go ahead liars, make yourself look like an idiot and start replying how you wouldn't. Everyone who reads your post will be thinking, "What a friggin' lying 'tard.")

Go on then, call me a "friggin' lying 'tard" for not wanting to assist in the theft of stolen property; because I don't want to spoil the experience by downloading a 10% finished build of the game. You call yourself a loyal fan? I'm guessing not, because you sure don't have a shred of respect for the hard work of those who make it possible for you to sit on your computer and play these games.

So while I understand PU's stance in assisting Epic, save the boyscout speeches for your mom.

All you seem to understand is greed. So, you're saying that we, and by we I mean those who want to see a well-made Unreal 2, shouldn't be speaking up against the blatant theft that is caused every time someone downloads the alpha?

Read the other thread (http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83999) about this (which you seem to have conveniently sidestepped in order to get some attention) and Prophetus' post near the bottom of page 1. He mentions how crackers and cheaters can now get hold of the U2 alpha code, root through it and perhaps discover how to make a great aimbot, or just steal ideas for themselves, the same way they stole the alpha in the first place. When U2 is out, I'll be the first to call you a hypocrite if I see one post from you condemning a U2 aimbot.

Legend can try to contain the spread of the alpha by shutting down sites where it's available for download, but they know that they can't totally stop it spreading. No-one can actually stop you from downloading the alpha, but by doing so it just shows your total lack of respect for Legend's work. And you call yourself a true fan? Bull...

ravenus
5th Oct 2001, 09:58 AM
Yo tha man, Zaccix. Give it to 'em.

IntRed
5th Oct 2001, 01:59 PM
k, time for my opinions on this:
That would make you a thief, then.
you are not going to tell me, you never ever had an illegal copy of some sort of software

You're saying that Epic and Legend should release an unfinished, buggy game and present it as the finished article
i know tons of examples of games you described as being unfinished, buggy, as you stated tribes 2, even ut had its bugs (though limited)

NeoNite
5th Oct 2001, 02:09 PM
BUT PUUUUUULLLLLLEASE don't try to give us a lecture on morals.

OH BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT don't worry about that big mouth.. :)

The way I see it... anybody who doesn't understand the hard work people put in when creating a game, even if it takes them over a year, maye 2 or the "when it's done" style --> dukenukem forever.. probably has no problem finding and dling the unreal2 alpha.

I admit, I clicked the link someone had put it with SCREENSHOTS of an alpha version from Unreal2.. but I didn't realise at that time it was stolen property, which makes it not ok to view.

phillys
5th Oct 2001, 09:11 PM
so, whats Unreal2? :D

Dances with Flak
6th Oct 2001, 01:13 AM
Someone said, "That's so totally stupid, you can't possibly be serious about it."

Another person said, "You've got to be kidding me, right?"

I'm not kidding and there is nothing stupid about it. It is a simple fact that games get released every single day that are not complete. Look at UT for example... How many patches did UT get? About one a week it seems like there for awhile. Epic not only fixed bugs with the patches, they also added features. They even released a number of map packs for UT after the release.

Another sad fact is that everyday games are released minus some really cool features because there simply was not time to implement them. Game companies do work on a deadline, from the day they start work on a game they know when it has to be out the doors. If a feature doesn't look like it will be completed in time, it gets the axe. This is because the whole time the game is in development, money is being poured into the project without any money coming in.

However, what if the game was making money before it was even complete? There wouldn't be the great need to get the game out the door fast to start seeing a return on their investment. They could take all the time they needed to implement all the features that will make the game great.

When whoever started throwing words like 'stupid' around, he should have been more careful as it often comes back to you in spades.

Just weeks ago ID released a public test for Return to Castle Wolfenstein. It was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times the very first day! This was far from a complete game, it was one multiplayer level only. Yeah, sounds to me like most people just want to wait for the finished product. Stupid me.

Let's say ID didn't release the multiplayer test, let's say they instead started selling RtCW. Everyone knows they are going to buy it anyway, they've been looking forward to it for years. Why not go ahead and buy it now and just apply updates as they are completed? There quite simply is no reason not to. You can start playing the game you've been waiting forever for now instead of waiting another 6 months to a year. Everytime an update is released it will be like Christmas all over again. And quite frankly you will have a leg up on all the losers who are waiting to read the hundreds of reviews that say the same old tired, "Best game I've ever played." over and over again.

And all those people saying, "I wanna wait for the final release so that I can play it all at once and not ruin it."

A) You can't play it all at once. Let's say there were only 10 solo player levels (I'm sure there will be more). You would need 10 computers and 20 hands to play all the levels at once, and it wouldn't make much sense that way anyway.

B) Did you tape each episode of Seinfeld so that you could watch them all at once at the end of the season? I didn't think so.

C) I suppose if Epic asked you to help beta test U2 you'd turn them down, give me a break.

D) I suppose if you were at E3 and Epic offered you a press pass to see the private backroom demonstration of U2 you'd turn them down and tell them to give it to someone else.

Simply put, way more than half the people that will buy U2 would buy U2 V 0.1 today. Epic wouldn't have to wait another 6 to 12 months to start showing a profit on it and the fans wouldn't have to wait that long to get their hands on it.

Please note: nowhere did I ever say that, "Epic and Legend should release an unfinished, buggy game and present it as the finished article? I'm sure your school teachers praised you for handing in incomplete homework, or don't you have any memory of school?"

I don't know about him, but my teachers never required me to hand in a years worth of homework at the end of the year. I pretty much had to turn in homework every day. As for presenting it as finished, I never said that, I never even said anything that sounded like that. HOWEVER, Apple did just that with OS X and people ate it up with a spoon. PEOPLE EVEN PAID MONEY TO BETA TEST OS X!!! Full well knowing that they would have to pay the full price of OS X when it was complete. LOTS OF PEOPLE. Then, just as an added kick to the teeth, Apple is charging TWENTY BUCKS for the update that actually makes OS X a finished product.

So as you can clearly see, I haven't suggested anything extreme or beyond the bounds of reality.

1. EVERY game gets a patch these days, therefore NO game is actually complete when it ships. "We'll fix it in a patch, now let's get it on the shelves." is the game development motto.

2. Hundreds of thousands of people downloaded ONE and only ONE multiplayer level of RtCW the first day it was released.

3. Millions of people PAID MONEY to beta test OS X.

4. MILLIONS of people bought the OS X release knowing it wasn't quite finished.

5. MILLIONS of people are going to pay another twenty bucks for the update that actually completes OS X. AND THEY LOVE EVERY MINUTE OF IT AND WILL TELL YOU APPLE IS THE BEST COMPANY IN THE WORLD!

So perhaps the person that likes to call other people stupid should take a look in the mirror, read about what's going on in the world, and get in touch with reality.

phillys
6th Oct 2001, 02:46 AM
I agree with you COMPLETELY!

IntRed
6th Oct 2001, 03:33 AM
yeah i have to second that, the alpha thing has gone a bit to far imo, i mean not looking at it cause its stolen property :rolleyes:
i can easely say that all of you have or are in one way or another using illegal software or copied software, this reminds me of a saying: (though badly translated)
He who is without sins may throw the first stone
and i'm sure that no-one here is entitled to throw a stone

NeoNite
6th Oct 2001, 06:29 AM
No cause if it would hit someone he or she would probably get injured and then we would have to take them to the hospital and then we'd be in one hell of a mess...

Oh oh spaghetti ooooooh :D

phillys
6th Oct 2001, 07:40 AM
imho, ppl in the forum with that should get banned.

Law
6th Oct 2001, 09:40 AM
Dances With Flak, there's is one huge gaping flaw in your whole argument, along with a whole lot of smaller ones.

Unreal 2 is a single player experience first and foremost. If the game were released right now, characters, maps, models, triggers, and stability would be missing. The game would crash, thousands of people would complain about how their computer should be able to play the game at 150 fps but it won't.

Unreal was about atmosphere. Its one of my favorite games of all time because you felt like you were there. How would it feel to reach the end of the hardest level in the game only to have it crash because the boss hasn't been implemented yet. Releasing Unreal 2 when its only half done would be a huge mistake. Take a good look at Tribes 2, that game was much farther along than U2 is right now, but it was still released early. It was unplayable for a large percentage of users because of its bugs. It only reached playable status in July (was released in April).

Now if you realize how bad a situation like that would be for a single player game, then you might begin to understand why you're so wrong. When I pay $50 for a new game I expect a finished product, that's why I'm paying for it. The excuse that "everyone else is releasing games early" is about as poor as it gets.

I want my Unreal 2 finished.

Dances with Flak
6th Oct 2001, 11:27 AM
I think a few people here read on a 3rd grade level. I NEVER SAID RELEASE IT NOW AND SAY IT'S DONE.

What I said several times now is that there is so much demand for this game that hundreds of thousands of people would buy the game before it was even done. Even if there were just a couple solo levels and one multiplayer level.

That does not mean that I think everyone in the world would buy it before it was finished. If you're so worried about it having bugs in it then you should wait a year after the final release so that all the bugs can be fixed with patches.

Obviously they would have to make it VERY VERY clear that it isn't a finished product so that people like you don't start crying and whining if you encounter a bug. Buy it now and deal with it or wait for the finished product.

[IsP]KaRnAgE
6th Oct 2001, 11:54 AM
most normal people wont pay full price for one map some place holders and a few unfinished things, with the hopes of downloading 1 (maybe 2) CDs worth of data over a period of months.. that is STUPID. plain and simple. this isnt a true demo or a beta of the game. Its an alpha, not even a true dev alpha either... which means its practically NOT UNREAL 2! This is nothing more than a playable tech demo. Tech demos arent games. I think you are a bit too excited about Unreal 2. It might be great, yeah woopity doo, but there is no reason to download something stolen, that is practically useless, just to get a small glimpse of what might be. I would understand the enthusiasm behind this stolen tech demo if it were actually a stolen Test Demo, where the game itself is the subject, and not the engine. I mean, the Unreal2 pumped UT CTF game demo they had probably has way more playablilty, its an actual CTF game for crying out loud. But you people downloading the stolen prealpha are getting excited at nothing. Have you never played a game with big maps? High poly models, and nice textures b4? Thats all the tech demo is. it doesnt reflect unreal 2 at all imho. go buy a new game, or go outside or something, there is no need to defend your position. The reason why the guys behind u2 dont want you to have it is because it doesnt reflect the product they are working on properlly. They can give two ****s whether you think the tech demo is a good game or not, its outdated and its theirs. Would you like it if you were working on a science project for a year only to have an early mock up that only displayed the basic idea, and not the true theory, of the project was stolen from you and everyone decided that it was free pickings. I dont think anyone would like that.

My point is stop being "fiends" (READ:Wanting the game more than anything else that could possibly be owned.)

hal
6th Oct 2001, 02:14 PM
Yikes! :eek: Why so sensitive, DWF?

Dances with Flak
6th Oct 2001, 02:32 PM
I could excuse the first dude that called me stupid as merely being ingnorant of the facts. However, the facts are right there in my post and I assume you read them. Therefore I have to think that you are stupid, touched in the head, not playing with a full deck, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, or mentally challenged.

"most normal people wont pay full price for one map some place holders and a few unfinished things, with the hopes of downloading 1 (maybe 2) CDs worth of data over a period of months.. that is STUPID."

First, I never suggested they sell this tech demo non alpha. I said if they had a couple of solo levels and a multiplayer level complete they could sell that as version 0.1. LEARN TO READ PLEASE.

Second, it isn't a theory that people <i>might</i> buy it before it was finished. It is a FACT that people HAVE bought products before they were finished. (see OS X) It is also a fact that hundreds of thousands of people downloaded one single solitary multiplayer only level of RtCW.

Lastly, something you and all your literary challenged friends seem to keep missing is the most important part..... I NEVER SAID PAY FOR THE WHOLE GAME AND ONLY GET A SMALL PART OF IT. I said, buy the game now and play what IS done while waiting for the rest to be completed. As the game is completed you can get point releases (v0.1, v0.2, v0.3...) until finally one day it is a finished v1.0 release product.

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING NEW HERE PEOPLE!!! This happens everyday with hundreds of software titles. There are many many benefits to it as well. For example:

I bought the release version of Unreal Tournament. Unreal Tournament v1.0. Is that the final product? Hell no. So now everytime I want to reinstall UT, I have to do the CD install and then apply a patch and map packs. If I had the ACTUAL final release of UT I could simply install it off the cd and I would be ready to play. This may seem like a minor thing, but when you consider that EVERY SINGLE GAME SOLD TODAY is the same way, if you have to reinstall Windows for any reason you have a lot of work ahead of you reinstalling games AND THEN UPDATING THEM.

As games get more and more complex, they of course take longer and longer to develope. The potential for bugs also increases dramtically, adding greatly to the development time. Companies don't like to wait years to see a return on their investment. Gamers don't like to wait years to play the games. Since there is a point in time where the game engine is complete as well as several levels, yet there is still six months to a year to go before ALL the levels are designed, mapped, modeled and textured, why not start selling it before it is complete to people who would rather wait for it to be complete WHILE they are playing it?

There simply is no reason not to, especially when the demand for the game is as high as it is for Unreal 2. Even so, why the hell do you even care? If you don't want to play it until it is finished, NO ONE is going to force you to buy it before it is. So it's really no concern of yours. Every game you buy is incomplete and buggy anyway, the only difference is that they try to pass it off as complete. At least this way you know it isn't the final product.

I don't see why you mental midgets are getting so up in arms over this idea. It's already being done, and only good comes from it. Everybody wins. So take your own advice and go breath some fresh air.... ya never know, it just might stimulate some brain cell growth.

[IsP]KaRnAgE
6th Oct 2001, 03:04 PM
save for maybe tribes 2, games for the most part are released finished. Patches fix bugs that are found after more people start playing the game. Some compaines, like Gravity (Ragnarok) allow for public testing so that most kinks can be found b4 the game is released but most companies simply cant or are forced to do otherwise. thousands downloading a one level demo doesnt mean much. It was hyped to hell n top of the fact that it is the first wolf game fans of the series have seen in ages.

about adding some sp levels and stuff to the prealpha U2 and then selling it.... its still a dumb idea. Adding levels, cleaning up the code, and adding whats missing to that prealpha would make it a regular demo, something that would normally be FREE on a website or in a magazine. This isnt an operating system, its a game. People want a finished product. Not some half assed version. Its people like you who are willing to buy unfinished trash that make companies like Sierra think that releasing games 6 months b4 they are finished is ok. You cant wait for U2? go read a book until its finished.

:rolleyes:

Note: im expecting another read my post better replies to one of my statements. Read my post real well before you do

Dances with Flak
6th Oct 2001, 03:56 PM
I've made it as clear as I could possibly make it. You just have a reading comprehension problem. I'm sorry you were unable to understand.

Good luck in life...

...you will need it.

[IsP]KaRnAgE
6th Oct 2001, 05:24 PM
Ms. Cleo aint got nothing on me:rolleyes: ;)

NeoNite
6th Oct 2001, 05:36 PM
I don't see why you mental midgets are getting so up in arms over this idea

Do you have an attitude problem, Dances with flak?
:)?

[IsP]KaRnAgE
6th Oct 2001, 05:40 PM
the tarot seems to point to a certain metal object...oh...its..its getting clearer.. ah i see it now... it takes the form of a lock!!:rolleyes: ;) :p

pine
7th Oct 2001, 04:04 AM
Stick with Flak Dancing; Dancing with Moderators is a very precarious excercise.

Zaccix
7th Oct 2001, 06:56 AM
You've written quite a lot since Friday, none of which convinces me that you're doing anything other than trying to justify the alpha and downloading it. However, this is an example of why talking to you is like trying to hold a conversation with a wall:
Originally posted by Dances with Flak
Just weeks ago ID released a public test for Return to Castle Wolfenstein. It was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times the very first day! This was far from a complete game, it was one multiplayer level only. Yeah, sounds to me like most people just want to wait for the finished product. Stupid me.
One difference though, id voluntarily released the test to help catch compatibility bugs. The test was freely available on their ftp site and id sent news of it to the gaming sites. The RTCW test wasn't leaked.

Keep trying to justify the alpha, because not one of your arguments stand up, and it only makes you look ever more clueless about the whole thing.

Thousands of people paid money to beta test Tribes 2. Go over to the TribalWar forums and ask some of the regulars how they felt about that...

IntRed
7th Oct 2001, 07:37 AM
Thousands of people paid money to beta test Tribes 2. Go over to the TribalWar forums and ask some of the regulars how they felt about that...
eh? i got the external beta for free

hal
7th Oct 2001, 07:47 AM
DWF, you mentioned what a pain in the ass it was to have to download patches and crap when you reinstall a program. So, how big a download do you figure someone would have if they only have a portion of the code and a "couple of playable levels"? 400MB?

ouch. no thanks.

By the way, no need to sling personal insults, people. :hmm:

Prophetus
7th Oct 2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Dances with Flak
Epic, Legend, or whoever owns them has the right to not want their unfinished work floating around the web.

Planet Unreal and any other web site has the right to try to assist the above in keeping it from spreading.

BUT PUUUUUULLLLLLEASE don't try to give us a lecture on morals.

Now, here is an example of someone who dislikes one person's morals because it conflicts with their own. You don't want me or others to spread our side of morality about stealing, but you then turn around and spread your version of morality.

Everything we do in life has two sides. If you don't like what we preach about stealing, then don't preach your opinions about stealing. No, I'm not saying you can't post your opinion, but if you don't want us to support our opinions on stealing the pre-alpha, then don't support your opinions about how stealing the pre-alpha is ok. You are in fact doing exactly what you asked US not to do.

This is the problem with our society today. We don't appreciate another person's hard work. We only want what is presently pleasing to our senses. If it's available, even if it's stolen, we will get it. Why? Because we can. Yet, it is basic human nature to defend what is rightfully yours. If YOU made the game, then you would be pissed if someone took it.

Don't believe me? Then why do you use a nick name? Why do you use a password? If you feel everyone should have a right to play and use the pre-alpha and nothing is wrong with downloading the game, then release your password to us. Ensure your harddrive is accessable to everyone to pillage. Don't just open a few unimportant folders, open all your works for us to download and take.

But you won't do that. You actually want security for your private possessions. Yet, you don't want others to preach about how private property should be secure and why stealing that property is bad. You don't feel bad for taking another person's property, because it isn't yours. Yet, if we took your stuff, you would be shouting "Hackers!" and "@ssholes".

True, the pre-alpha wasn't stolen by hackers, but it was released to trusted personnel. Whether or not a computer was hacked or released by someone Legend trusted, the concept of security for personal property remains intact. You use passwords to protect your computer, email and access to programs so others would not steal or hack your content. Legend trusted someone with the pre-alpha and they stole the content and used it for other purposes. The fact Legend allowed someone access to the pre-alpha obligates that person to treat such property as secure. Passwords or trust...it's all about security of private property.

So, until you provide evidence that you allow the general public to access everything you have or created, don't come in here and tell me or the others to stop giving you "...a lecture on morals", especially when you are preaching your own set of morals.

IntRed
7th Oct 2001, 11:39 AM
true, couldn't agree more on that
always 2 sides, and people tend to choose there own side, and neglect the other one.
reminds me of a saying:
the world sucks, thank god, or else we'd fall off :p

Dances with Flak
7th Oct 2001, 12:30 PM
As you can see from my number of posts, I'm not a regular here. I really only came here to find out if there was any news about how Unreal 2 was coming becuase Legend and Epic don't really have much to say about it.

The only reason I even bothered to post is because I found all the condemnation of fans who wanted to take a peek at the game unfounded. The alpha isn't even a game.... to equate it to piracy and warez is laughable. People download warez so they don't have to pay for the game. No one is going to say, "Well, I don't have to buy the game now, I've got the alpha and I'll just play that."

Now I have been accused of preaching my own brand of morals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally, I see nothing wrong with downloading the alpha. There is zero harm that can come out of me seeing a glimpse of the Unreal 2 engine at work. It's out there.... it's floating around the net.... the damage has been done. ME seeing it isn't going to change anything. But that's all really beside the point because I'm not advocating that everyone should go download it.

Someone who was entrusted with it broke that trust and distributed it. That is their bag. I'm sure that person has his reasons and I may or may not agree with them. However, I have no agreement with Epic, Legend or whoever owns them. Therefore, I'm under no moral obligation. They entrusted me with nothing. The ONLY moral obligation I have is to not harm them. Because any action that harms another is morally wrong. (with the exception of logical extensions that allow for the harm of a few for the greater good of many. Example: Osama)

The only possible arguement that you could have against me downloading it is that I should instead report any servers I see it on to them so that they could be shut down. HOWEVER, the only moral obligation I would have there is IF I thought the distribution of the alpha was damaging to them, which I do not. Even still, I'm not obligated to help everyone that I feel needs help. Every man chooses his own path. If some idiot tries to drive 100 mph around a curve and as a result plunges over the side of a cliff, yet manages to grab a branch halfway down, I'm not morally obligated to risk my life climbing down to save him. He knew the dangers and decided to ignore them. I know that guy needs my help and if I don't help him he will die. But I'm not gonna help him, I'm just going to be glad that his reckless driving didn't take me with him.

So when someone makes a statement that I would be morally incorrect if I downloaded the alpha, I take offense to it because I know they are wrong. Legally is a whole 'nother matter altogether as I don't believe anything that is morally correct can truly be illegal.

I never tried to preach morals to anyone. AS A MATTER OF FACT.... if you scroll ALL THE WAY up to the very top.... you will see that the very FIRST thing I said is that Epic has the right to not want their unfinished work floating around the web, and PU has the right to assist in keeping it from spreading. HOWEVER, the only way you can rightfully and justly say that I would be morally incorrect for downloading it is if you can prove that Epic would be harmed from ME seeing it. Which they wouldn't.

Although, by saying that I lack moral fiber if I want to/did download it, YOU ARE harming me by slandering me. YOU ARE MORALLY INCORRECT in doing so.

Don't worry, you apology is accepted....

...have a nice day.

Dances with Flak
7th Oct 2001, 12:49 PM
"DWF, you mentioned what a pain in the ass it was to have to download patches and crap when you reinstall a program. So, how big a download do you figure someone would have if they only have a portion of the code and a "couple of playable levels"? 400MB?

ouch. no thanks."

3 things...

1) You aren't arguing against the idea, just the logistics of carrying out the idea.

2) Most hardcore gamers (the people that would want to participate) have broadband. 100-150 meg files are a simple download on broadband. Break the game up into 10 point releases as I suggested earlier... v0.1, v0.2, v0.3.... and 2 cd's full of data become simple and managable downloads. When the game is complete they could send you CD's, you did buy the game afterall.

3) In response to your 'no thanks'.... I've said time and again.... nobody is going to force anyone to buy it before it is done. If you prefer waiting for the finished release on a store shelf, so be it. What's your problem if someone else would like to buy it down and get it in installments as it is completed? It's only going to result in a better game that ends up on the shelves and Epic wouldn't have the pressure to get it out before it was done just so they could start making some money off it. YOU WIN EITHER WAY! Do you people not like to win!? What are ya, a bunch of losers? ;)

[IsP]KaRnAgE
7th Oct 2001, 02:48 PM
ok i understand now.

episodic game releases via internet have been toyed with b4. the problem is that they dont ever seem to work. I have come to the conclusion that most gamers are, infact, unbearably lazy when it comes to things like this. This is the very reason why very few mods take off to heights rivaling full games (except CS). Hardcore gamers would do it, but you have to realise that it is casual gamers that companies make money off of. If hardcore gamers were that important group that influenced games, then we'd have alot more top notch content and fewer botched releases. But since most companies are after the buck, they will sell something as long as they can be assured that a mass majority of people, hardcore or not, will buy it. Just look at the UT community. Look at how many lame people play that game. Look at how many people only play it casually. Its alot more than the hardcore. At this point in its life span only 3 types of people play it. The hardcore that remain, the completly new players that bought it as a bargain bin game, and the people with nothing better to do than to be lame and annoy people.

Releasing Unreal 2 episodically via the net would only be benificial to hardcore players. Hardcore players who really want U2. Its safe to say that the demand for U2 is only decent. It will sell well, but it probably wont be the MGS2 or FF10 of the PC world. A game like Doom might generate more interest, and might succeed as an episodic release, mainly since it has been a long while since we have been given a new doom game. Unreal's community is, today, made up of mostly UT players. UT players want a new UT. They know that U2 probably isnt what they want, but they will try it and see what its like. I'm sure its the hope of most UT fans interested in U2 that its MP is ATLEAST as good as UT, if not better. Unreal fans were estatic about this new game, but seem to have lost the fervor they had once it was noted that the game bears small resemblance to the original.

Overall episodic gaming might be good for some games, but it definitely wouldnt work for a FPS Sp/MP game, since these games are best when kept whole. Might work for an RPG though...

DeeperShade
7th Oct 2001, 03:37 PM
oh dear.. dances with flak is a real dork isnt he?

fine, ill just come round your house when your asleep and steal all your unfinished stuff... after all, you dont seem to mind it all..

Dances with Flak
8th Oct 2001, 02:11 PM
I said many times in the past couple of days that nothing would keep me from buying Unreal 2, certainly nothing resulting from this alpha leak. I was wrong.

My quest for the alpha has led me all over the Unreal community. Even though I have been completely unsuccessful in finding the alpha or even a screenshot of it, I am now seriously considering not buying Unreal 2.

I have to apologize to several people here as well. I thought some of you were the biggest @$$holes in the world. That was until today when I ran accross the biggest @$$hole of them all, Grant Roberts, in this thread... http://ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134293

I can't believe Epic/Legend/Infogrames would allow this puke to interact with the public. They should have erased all his posts and put him back in his cage. :( I've now lost all the excitement I had for the game, as well as the entire company.

I can't say that I won't buy Unreal 2, but I can say that it will have to be leaps and bounds above all other games for me to buy it now. Looks like ID just got themselves a new customer.

Prophetus
8th Oct 2001, 03:09 PM
Boohoo...we lost a potential customer...boohoo.

Personally, we need to lose more people like you, DwF. You won't accept our rationale, since you believe stealing the pre-alpha won't hurt Legend. That's about silly.

If I stole something from you, would you sit back and consider whether the item I stole was going to hurt you finacially? No. You would be upset that I took something from you. The mere fact that someone had little respect for you and your property will enrage you. The last thing on your mind would be the finacial loss.

The only thing I request of people is to respect others as they want to be respected. Once you show little or no respect, then you deserve that same treatment. Legend never took anything from you, yet you feel compelled to find and download the stolen pre-alpha. Your justification, because you really want to see Unreal 2.

You know that Legend and the admins here at Planet Unreal are stongly opposed to people downloading the pre-alpha. Yet, you are too selfish to think about the community. Sure, others have downloaded the program and after they realized the seriousness of what happened they provided some support. That's more than you have done.

The only reason you posted here was to find some support for your selfishness and hoped that others would agree with your unethical hunt for the pre-alpha. Please, do us all a favor and don't buy Unreal 2. The community will be better without people like you.

Oh, I consider Grant a nice and respectful person. He has done nothing but show great support for the fans of the Unreal series. Now that he is a little upset at how the fans contributed to the distribution of the stolen pre-alpha, you feel he is an @sshole? Hmm, I really would like to see how you would act if the same happened to you.

Please, give us access to your hard drive, hell...give us your address. I'll send over some good friends to steal your stuff. Then, you can post in this forum patting the thieves on their backs for a job well done. I will even print your congradulations and praise on the news page. That will show Grant how nice and forgiving you are to people who break in and take your stuff.

On behalf of the Unreal community:

Boohoo.

The Dopefish
8th Oct 2001, 03:21 PM
Yes...boohoo indeed. :p

Dances with Flak
8th Oct 2001, 05:06 PM
As much as you might think you speak for the community, you don't. Sorry to burst your bubble. :(

As for the community being better off without me, I really don't think so. I don't cheat, I play to have fun, I play to meet people and new friends, basically I'm one of those guys (that are all too rare these days) that after a night of fraggin' you say to yourself, "That DwF dude was pretty cool."

I've got dozens of close friends that play UT, and many more online friends that I've met playing UT. These are all people just like me, who play to have fun and only serve to elevate the community. All of whom are looking forward to Unreal 2 with great anticipation. Any one of which would love to get a peek at it.

When you equate fans to theives, it is not only insulting, it is completely unfounded. The thought never even crossed my mind to break in to Legend's offices and root through their files until I found a build of Unreal 2 and steal it. Downloading an alpha floating around the net certainly doesn't compare to that.

Your hero, Grant, tried to compare it to breaking into my house and stealing naked pictures of my mom. Obviously, if I had naked pictures of my mom (MOM? NAKED? man, I'd be a sick freak) I would never intend to distribute them ever. Epic/Legend do plan to distribute Unreal 2, so it isn't even in the same ballpark.

However, let's say that instead of naked pictures of my mom (man that dude is one twisted individual to even think of such a thing) I was working on a mod for UT. A really cool mod that I'd been working over a year on. A mod that I told everyone about the day I started on it and made a website to hype it, set up forums to talk about it, and had websites created in anticipation of it. Let's say I got an alpha complete, and gave it to a few close friends to check out.

Now all of a sudden my incomplete mod was floating around all over the net. Let's also say that I got permission to sell my mod (fat chance) once it was complete, just to make it more comparable. Now your question is, would I be happy about that? Actually, I'd probably be incredibly flattered. However, even if I was upset about it, who am I going to be upset with? The fans that download it, or my close friend that leaked it?

I sure as hell would not go on a rampage insulting and alienating all the fans of my mod by saying such things as:

"Alright, people, listen up"

"I'm not blaming anyone for downloading it. If I've learned one thing since the Internet exploded back in '94, it's that there's absolutely zero accountability on this godforsaken, absolutely invaluable network of fiber."

"I think those people who downloaded it aren't being very respectful to us, but hey, that's never been a prerequisite to post on a message board."

"That is all, gentlemen. Don't expect me to be Mr. Nice Grant about this. If you make my job harder than it is right now, there's going to be trouble."

All I would say...

"The alpha version that is floating around the net was not officially released. It is certainly not up to the level of quality that I would use to advertise. Because of this, I have aquired the assistence of all the websites devoted to this project. This site ans well as those will not permit links to, nor screenshots of the alpha.

I can understand your anticipation to play, however, you really aren't going to get much out of this alpha. You can be assured that we are working feverishly to complete this product and get a release version in your hands.

If you do happen to run across this alpha on the net, I would ask that you not judge the strength of this project on it as it is not only unfinished, but barely even started."

That's all that needs to be said. I didn't intend for it to be released and the community and myself will not aid in its distribution in any way.

You mention... "The only thing I request of people is to respect others as they want to be respected. Once you show little or no respect, then you deserve that same treatment. Legend never took anything from you, yet you feel compelled to find and download the stolen pre-alpha. Your justification, because you really want to see Unreal 2."

I did respect Legend until I read Grant's tirades. I never intended to TAKE anything from Legend. Someone did, it wasn't me. I suppose as you patrol the forums deleting screen shots, you cover your eyes out of respect for Legend when you find one?

"The only reason you posted here was to find some support for your selfishness and hoped that others would agree with your unethical hunt for the pre-alpha."

Wrong. I posted because not only do I know you are wrong, you are so wrong and insulting that I felt compelled to speak my mind. You have yet to demonstrate how me looking at the alpha is unethical or immoral. The fact is that it is not.

You, Epic, Legend, Infogrames, and all your various suckups would never even know if I downloaded it. THERE WOULD BE NO EFFECT WHAT SO EVER from me looking at it, other than me being more excited about the game and a little less anxious. I DEFY you to prove in any way shape or form anyone is losing ANYTHING from MY viewing of the alpha. To have something stolen from you, you HAVE to lose something. If you steal my TV then I have no TV. If I had used warez instead of buying UT, Epic would have lost money.

Another fact that you have failed to consider is that if Legend/Epic had not hyped Unreal 2 all this time, then I wouldn't have even known it was in development. I wouldn't have come here to check on its progress. I wouldn't have seen posts about the leaked alpha. I wouldn't have known the alpha was floating around the net. I wouldn't have known to even look for it.

See, where you are wrong is when you said Legend never took anything from me. They did. The moment they advertised Unreal 2 they made it public. They advertised it knowing that it, scratch that, intending to catpure my interest. THEY ASKED ME TO BE INTERESTED IN IT. THEY WANT ME TO BE INTERESTED IN IT. I guess only when it is convient for them though, huh?

What it all boils down to is this.... I didn't steal the alpha and distribute it. However, if I knew where to download it I would. You and Legend say that if I download it then I am being disrespectful and immoral. You are both dead wrong becuase my viewing of an alpha of a game that they advertised purposefully to capture my attention would have no effect what so ever on anyone or anything. By insulting me and all the other fans out there be calling us thieves, you are being disrespectful and owe us all an apology.

If your problem is with people that might hack it, then point your wrath at them. If your problem is with people that might insult its quality, point your wrath at them. If your problem is with people who post screenshots of it that might influence others negatively, point your wrath at them. However, you have no reason, and quite frankly no right, to be disrepectful of me or anyone else who views the alpha with nothing but positive results.

That is very lame and you should be ashamed of yourself.

The Dopefish
8th Oct 2001, 06:06 PM
You must have selective hearing, because I've heard them say nothing but, "We didn't release that version to the public and we consider it stolen property."

As one person who posted in this thread told me, you're saying a lot, but not really saying anything to back yourself up. Where's your proof that they did intentionally release the "alpha", and, furthermore, where's your proof that they don't lose money from the unintentional leaking?

Oh wait, I know that answer already.

You don't have any. Whoops. Y'see, that's usually a good way to produce a valid argument to your...erm, case.

And for whatever reason the mods/admins banned you, I'm positive they should do it again. As far as we at the Planetunreal Forums are concerned, that leaked U2 version is stolen and any linking to it is illegal. The guys at Legend have said this already, so we are complying.

You are the Weakest Linkę. Goodbye!

Prophetus
9th Oct 2001, 10:32 AM
You still haven't given us access to your computer, Dances with Idiots. Come on, be as brave as you claim and let us pillage and distribute your private creations.

You should be ashamed of yourself for being a hypocrite. Guess every community needs a jester.