Open letter to ModSquad

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TrodKnee

New Member
Apr 8, 2001
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An open letter to the reviewers at ModSquad.

I have just read your latest "review" regarding the mutator BulletTime. Nothing against the mutator itself really, but as you can see in the comments the author himself admits that he only spent a few hours working on it, and the same thing can be accomplished by a few simple console commands. You gave the mutator a score of 8.2?

On the other hand there is my mod, UnrealGod. It includes over 200 custom classes, a custom level, custom textures and models, and many ORIGINAL features that you won't find in any other mod, the most important of which (the abilitly to play DungeonMaster) is not mentioned at all in your review. I easily spent over a hundred hours working on this mod singlehandedly. It got one of the lowest scores I have seen you give a mod.

So I really have to ask, what exactly is your criteria for rating mods and mutators? Do you have any experience at all making mods and mutators? I tried to be open minded about the score you gave my mod, and I intend to continue to improve it based on some of your points and tons of feedback I have received from other players. But to be honest, the thought that people have passed over trying my mod based upon your low score really upsets me, especially considering the relatively high scores you have given other projects which are totally unoriginal and could be coded by the greenest of script newbies.

It is my belief that as a well known review site for the Unreal community you have a responsibility to be more fair and thorough in your reviews, considering that your opinion could greatly influence whether or not someone who has spent alot of time and effort creating something gets the credit and attention they deserve.

-TrodKnee
 

WebSlinger

bNotNegative != False
Feb 29, 2000
1,955
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Oklahoma City, OK
now THIS is a civilized rant! 'net kiddies watch and learn. I hope ModSquad replies. TrodKnee, just because you have presented your concerns in a stately manor, I am going to download and try your mod. I'm not going to post a review, but sounds like you put a lot of work into it, and I'm going to download it based on your open letter here and not on anyone's reveiw...

Take Care, hope you get some good feedback.
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
7,711
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That was a very good rant. If only everyone could put their ideas as kindly as you.

I'm not sure we have any "standards" we rank a mod by.... and I'm not really sure what else to tell you except find the name of the reviewer in question (I can be reached at Nemephosis@yahoo.ca) and take it up with them. If you're as kind with them as you were here I am sure you will get a decent response.

All the best of luck, and don't give up on your mod. It can only get better.

If you want to see some real low scores, check out the reviews for "Weapons Fight" and "IR Goggles." :D
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
7,711
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uhhhh.... I did?

If you mean Peter Yu, you're better off emailing him. He doesn't post here.

Like I said, you would have better luck emailing the reviewers you have issues with.
 

usaar33

Un1337
Mar 25, 2000
808
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There are some things fundamentally wrong

First I will cite my own mods as examples (hey, they are mine :)):

http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/asp/review.asp?Review=172

http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/oldskoolampd.htm

In both cases, no true "cons" are listed. One lists them as "nothing left to do" and the other is "none". Therefore, it should have a 10. End of discussion. If you cannot find a flaw in a mod, is it not "perfect"? I agree with the scores you gave, but you lacked justifications. Some cons would be several bugs that no one notices :p and the wierd install system.
Oh and also I noticed in the latest oldskool amp'd, so many facts were stripped out of the readme. I realize however that reviewers do not have unlimited time, so this is acceptable...

More reviews like the ones I mentioned:
http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/rocket16.htm
http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/utetris.htm (very weak con)
http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/chaosgoty.htm (lack of explaination)
http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/mapvote.htm (yes, so it is useless offline. duh. and if you get kicked, you must have been annoying everyone else).
http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/reviews/zeroping.htm
Completely false review. While ZP has many faults, it cannot be said it does not improve targetting (as it actually does traces on the client).


I do appreciate the time taken for reviews. But without a standard, the numbers mean nothing.
Oh and I cannot understand the mod/mutator distinction. A mutator IS a mod. Besides, decalstay is in the mutator section. Uh, it doesn't use a single muty...
 

TrodKnee

New Member
Apr 8, 2001
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Well, I did receive a response of sorts on the news page of ModSquad. Although I'm glad for the response, I have to admit I find it rather unsatisfying. I want to stress that this is nothing against the BulletTime mutator that was reviewed, but the review process itself.

There was really no response to the question of what the criteria for reviews is, or if there are any standards in place. I would expect that they didn't answer about whether or not the reviewers have actually made a mod or mutator, because I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.

I realize that my mod is somewhat one dimensional at this time and becomes boring. If asked how finished my mod was, I would probably say about 2/3s done...which would be on par with the score I received. I cannot understand how something as simple as lowering the gamespeed for everything besides the player doesn't get old. Perhaps it says something about the skill level of the reviewer, because to be honest the bullettime mutator gives an extraordinary advantage to the player, and could almost be considered cheating. Maybe if I wrote a mutator that made all bots stand perfectly still and not fire back I would score a 10.

Yes, I do understand that there is a difference between a mod and mutator. Perhaps someone should explain that difference to whoever made the BulletTime mutator the "Featured Mod" on the front page of PU.

Another thing that troubles me is the statement that the BulletTime mutator is like combining Matrix with Max Payne. Not only is that just plain absurd, there is no way something as simple as lowering the gamespeed can compare to the efforts made by the Matrix mod teams or the fine game that is Max Payne.

But even more irritating is the fact that in the mod community(and even in commercial game design) there is an alarming trend to plaud anything that directly emmulates another existing game that you might find fun. Does originality not matter to anyone anymore?

Oh well, I guess I should just let it go. It is now apparent to me that the most of the reviewers at ModSquad have no real understanding of that which they review, and basically just pull numbers out of the air...and like most critics I would be better off just ignoring them.

-TrodKnee
 

TrodKnee

New Member
Apr 8, 2001
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Gotta add this...reading the plug for the BulletTime mutator on the front page of PU.

"The best part is that this mutator is also compatible with many other mutators – for a combined effect!"

Do these people not understand that this is exactly what the intended purpose of a mutator is, to be compatible with other mutators?

This is from Brandon Reinhart's Mod Authoring Guide on Epic's Unreal Technology site, which anyone who reviews mods and mutators would be well advised to read.

"Mutators are a great place to cut your teeth on UnrealScript because you are exposed to a limited, but powerful subset of the engine. As I said above, Mutators should only modify the game code in a relatively slight way. This increases the chances your mutator will work well when mixed with other mutators. (For example, you can play FatBoy, InstaGib, No Powerups deathmatch. A mix of 3 mutators). "


-TrodKnee
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
7,711
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I have no further input on this. If you want Modsquad to reply, try emailing the reviewers, like I mentioned, and don't bash us on a public forum. If you have a problem with any of us, go to the staff link on Modsquad, get some email addresses and use them.

And yes Trodknee, feel free to ignore our reviews. They are in no way etchings in stone that must be followed to the letter like the 10 Commandments. They're a guide. They tell you about the mod. It's up to you to download it, not us. XMaps got a 10, our first, but I didn't download it cause I have no use for it.

Modsquad may be a well known site (our near 3 million hits can't be wrong) but you have the last choice when it comes to downloading something.

Tell you what. Go to any of the links Usaar posted and write a better review. You're welcome to do it, any input is not only welcome, but encouraged.
 

OshadowO

Irregular
Feb 10, 2000
4,775
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CA
Originally posted by TrodKnee

But even more irritating is the fact that in the mod community(and even in commercial game design) there is an alarming trend to plaud anything that directly emmulates another existing game that you might find fun. Does originality not matter to anyone anymore?

Oh well, I guess I should just let it go. It is now apparent to me that the most of the reviewers at ModSquad have no real understanding of that which they review, and basically just pull numbers out of the air...and like most critics I would be better off just ignoring them.

-TrodKnee
The first para:
Originality always get's extra points but the most important factor is fun. If it's not fun doesn't matter how original it is I'm not buying/fling it.
Second Para:
You know these guys really aren't professionals. They're just people who felt they wanted to devote sometime to the community. You really shouldn't be so hard on them. Even in professional journalism a game can score high in one mag and low in another. I've seen it. Everyone has their own standards and biases and unfortunately that comes thru.
a score of 6 ain't so bad. Like you said it's an unfinished mod. Finish it and it'll score higher.
I do agree tho that mods and mutators sould be kept separate and judged seperately, but when it comes down to it most people know the difference. No one is going to compare your MOd to the bullet time mutator. Atleast no one with half a brain would get the two mixed up.
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
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what gets me is he gets a 6 for an admittedly unfinished mod and thinks we're unfair.

[edit] OsO is right, we never claimed to be professionals either.[/edit]
 

TrodKnee

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Apr 8, 2001
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Nemephosis, try to set aside the score for my mod. Let's pretend that it is the worst mod ever and deserved an even lower score then it got.

That doesn't change the fact that at ModSquad there are no set criteria, no standards, and that the reviewers obviously have little or no understanding of how mods or mutators are made, or even exactly what a mutator is("It can be used with other mutators! amazing!").

You yourself are the one that pointed out in the comments for bullettime that the same thing can be accomplished with a couple of console commands. So it seems that you at least have a little more understanding then your fellow reviewers. In the same comment thread the mutator author states that he thought of it as a joke, and wouldn't have even submitted it if a friend hadn't insisted. Now this joke is the "Featured Mod", and compared to Matrix + Max Payne.

Ok, so back to my mod. Even in its unfinished state, it offers much more playability when it is used to its potential then a simple mutator that lowers gamespeed. Of course this would require someone reviewing it to actually try the main feature of the mod, which is the ability for someone to 'play god'(DungeonMaster). Or maybe at least hop online and see what its like when someone else does. But not only is the feature not tested or even observed, its not even mentioned once by the reviewer.

Sure, you can fall back on the 'Sour Grapes' argument all you want, and the uninformed masses will probably agree with you.

Or...you and the other reviewers at ModSquad could actually listen to the concerns I am voicing, and make some attempt to put some standards in place, better inform yourselves about the nature of mods and mutators, and improve the quality of the reviews found there. This would make your site a better place both for the general UT community and for those who put time and effort into making mods and mutators.

In conclusion, I would like to offer my personal rating for ModSquad. I give it a 7.0. Props for the time and effort spent trying to review the many mods out there for the UT community, but unfortunately I can't give a higher score due to the lack of consistancy and apparent lack of knowledge about mods and mutators themselves. But don't be discouraged by the low score...if you continue to work at it I'm sure it can only get better...

-TrodKnee
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
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I have passed on this link to Peter Yu so perhaps you will get a better response. I hope so. :)
 

usaar33

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Mar 25, 2000
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Trodknee is completely correct in regards the the standarts. Right now, you can get vastly different scores do to lack of criteria. And the reviews themselves can be very flawed (Legacy, anyone?)

Also, a mods and mutators section is confusing. A mutator IS a special type of mod, but it IS a mod.
Again, why is decalstay in the mutators section? It is NOT a mutator at all.
 

Nemephosis

Earning my Infrequent Flier miles
Aug 10, 2000
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You're asking the wrong guy. I just review and post news.

I'll ask Peter about grouping them together. That way it would be alphabetical and you'd know where to get what you want.
 

Cryognosis

might never have a icon
Aug 2, 2001
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why shouldn't a mod get a plus because it can be used with other mutators?

some mutators like sizedoesmatter (it's name was something like that) are not able to be used with mutators that modify the same thing (example:fatboy and sizedoesmatter,doesn't work) in fact,sometimes a mutator doesn't let other mutators modify things that the first mutator doesn't modify!

sometimes good things get bad reviews,people make mistakes,what if he gave the wrong score for the wrong mod/mutator? what if he even gave a review for another mod/mutator? i seen it happen before!
 

usaar33

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Mar 25, 2000
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Decalstay

is still in the mutator section..................

And mutators are supposed to be able to be used with other mutators. that is their whole point. IMO, I can't see why mods and mutators are split anyway. Many mods listed use mutys...
 

hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
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I think that there is something to be said for a review site that lays out a standard. Nali City is an example of this. When they added a review standard, I believe it really helped readers understand what criteria were used to formulate the score. They still get the complaints from people who disagree with their opinions (which is what reviews are, right?), but now people can understand where the reviewer believes the map in question fell short.

Having said that, you have to realize that sites have different review formats, and not all are interested in giving a detailed breakdown of their thought process. There isn't anything wrong with that... some people even prefer it.

As far as having the mutator on PU's MOD OF THE WEEK, you'll have to speak to redef about that one. I think he may have picked it based on ModSquad's review. But, hey... isn't that opinion too? :)

Nobody will agree on everything, but we appreciate you vocalizing your thoughts in such a reasonable way. Who knows, maybe your next Mod will be the subject of such a debate? :cool:
 

Daedalus

I don't even...
May 24, 2001
4,261
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d00d, umm..look, I'm sure your mod is pretty kewl, haven't got to play it yet, but uh...just calm down man, instead of being angry and all this ****, why don't you just keep working on a majorly kick ass mod so you can get that 9 or 10 sometime soon? So stop ranting and start coding! :)
 

TaoPaiPai

Commisaire Van Loc
Jun 13, 2000
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What's the point in giving notes to the reviews,anyway?.
I think the reviewers should just point out the obvious pros and cons from the product (by 'obvious' I mean those that aren't subject to debate) and tell if he likes it or not and why.That should just do it fine ,because some people could enjoy a map that some other will consider as crappy and ugly,but for some other people it will have a fun factor that makes it a resident hard drive.