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Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 09:55 AM
Just wanted to start a comment about the new scoring system... proximity determines if you're using teamwork? What if your teams gameplan is to fan out and cover all the chokepoints in a map? What if the team plan involved one guy covering the rear? Is he not a team player for giving up the high kills frontline to make sure the team can't be flanked?

From what I see, this is trying to force teamwork on public servers through a silly scoreboard. Some of the worste teamwork I've seen in matches involved a team all being close enough together to be coralled and taken out quickly. True teamwork is about dynamic movement and controling the map. You don't do that by standing close enough to participate in a circle jerk.

{PhD}Teutonic
16th Aug 2001, 10:13 AM
I totally agree Cholo.

I would love to see a group of public players try to stay within 10 meters of each other attempt
to defeat any organized INF squad.

Those few extra bonus points won't mean as much to them when they lose 8 rounds to 0.

I do like the accuracy% aspect of the scoreboard though :)

LepraKip
16th Aug 2001, 10:23 AM
/me wants a if-you-are-within-10-meters-of-the-nade-you-absolutely-die-grenade

:D

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 10:36 AM
I agree. If I'm way back there covering someone more than 10m away I won't get rewarded for it. It's a good attempt at more teamplay on pubs, but I don't think it'll work.

robrob
16th Aug 2001, 10:56 AM
..the purpose was to try and encourage teamwork. It may not be a perfect solution but I think it will help focus individuals out on the pub's. Not sure how(if) it could be done differently or better under the constraints of the game but I am sure those suggestions will surface.

To your point Cholo, the ultimate score is a W or an L, the bonus points won't mean squat. Whether a strategy is worthy of points or not depends on one and only one thing...Did your team win ? There are a number of pub players who get their self worth by score alone this teamwork aspect will help the overall gaming experince for the rest of us who want the W for the team.

BTW I think you guys are doing a hell of a job with the servers. Thanks for the sandbox.

robrob

Farouk
16th Aug 2001, 11:08 AM
I think the system is good enough. Let's say there are 5 people (including you) on your team playing on a large map (EP for eexample). 4 of them go rush out towards the enemy while you are staying behind watching them and their surroundings through your scope. If you now kill a threat to them the game wouldn't recognize it as teamplay.
But that is absolutely ok, because IMO it would be overall better teamplay if only three of the other players rushed out and one stayed to watch the sniper's back. And in that case you (better: not you personally but your team) get the teamplay bonus for the same kill.

WizBiz
16th Aug 2001, 11:24 AM
Why even have a "score"? A scoring system that is made up of rules such as "damage + teamwork + bonus+ percentage= score" is misleading on how a person actually performed during a round.

All we really need for TDM is statistics. Let us decipher who was the most important to their team based on a simple count of the following:

Kills
Deaths
TK's

Farouk
16th Aug 2001, 11:55 AM
Because that doesn't promote teamplay which is the whole point in the debate on Inf's scoring system.

I'd be happy without any scoring or statistics but most players want something of that kind.

MUF Antagonist
16th Aug 2001, 12:16 PM
First on a public server I don't care about anyone but myself! I'll shoot you if you walk in front, or I'll nade you just because a enemy is near! There will never be total team cooperation if TDM, period! Team Death Match is just that two teams fighting to the death, same priciples as dm, but only you should be penalized for shooting your own team! The only way there will be "teamplay" is if there is a common goal: ie: secure a room, blow up a transistor like the new EAS system. Even in those crcumstances if you are on a public server it will still be hard to make people play as a team! Providing a more "condusive" scoreboard that gives you arbitrary team stats will not help you guys wanting us to play more as a team! I play as a team when I am playing in a match versus another team for something, but as soon as I am on a public server I could care less if my side wins or looses because I am there just to have fun! I think most of you guys are loosing the point of fun on this. If you want to play as a team on a public server, play as your own team, and quit whining about everyone else doing there own thing! If you want true teamplay go join a clan(team) that plays in any one of the number of leagues available! Otherwise get over yourselves!

Warren
16th Aug 2001, 12:23 PM
1) teamwork % is based on having at least ONE player in proximity. It's always a good idea to have someone covering your back even if you're a sniper. But we realize that this system cannot meet the "dynamic movement" of war, so it's a bonus, plain and simple, to promote teamwork. Also note that your personal teamwork % will be displayed next to the team as a whole.
2) the scoreboard as a whole does little more than provide information- in a way that avoids individualism. True, position in the list is based on individual kills, but I don't feel that will compromise the intention of the scoreboard. Is that true? hell if I know- guess we'll find out.
3) the scoreboard, as it provides information, is a way to help you personally work better as a team. Infiltration is a harder game than most. The weapons are harder, and the movement is harder- which is why working as a team is important. Even if it's just the two of you. I've seen only two guys consistantly control entire maps as they work together. UT isn't a huge environment to work in, but it's large enough that working together is a benefit. If it turns out you got wasted by another team acting as individuals, then the scoreboard should reflect your performance as a team and hopefully you'll learn from it. Will it work? hell if I know- guess we'll find out.
4) in the end, the team left standing is the winner. The scoreboard is a guide to help you win as a team. I'll see if we can have an option to export stats from the scoreboard so people can manipulate the log files and use those stats for clans and whatnot. Other than tournaments, public servers probably won't be able to use these stats other than what their true intentions are.

Anyway, that's why we did it. :) Will people use it? That's up to them as individuals.

robrob
16th Aug 2001, 12:30 PM
I would certainly expect more from MUF

First on a public server I don't care about anyone but myself! I'll shoot you if you walk in front, or I'll nade you just because a enemy is near!

MUF Antagonist
16th Aug 2001, 12:53 PM
Let me elaborate a little for you robrob, in those situations it depends on my living to play longer or both of us dying!

St0rmcaller
16th Aug 2001, 12:57 PM
Damn, I never really thought of that. Seeing as in our training in the AFA we learn to operate at a minimum distance of 10 meters, the whole teamwork rating could really suck for us.

LoTekK
16th Aug 2001, 12:59 PM
dear god, it's warren again! :eek:
that's two by warren in the last 2.5 days... :D

hell if I know- guess we'll find out.

exactly, people... let's wait and see how it works out in the game before we go off and shoot down just about every new feature the team's working into the new release... my god, the new version hasn't even been released and the team's already getting flamed for the teamwork scoring, the accuracy, etc etc... christ, guys, lighten up and wait for it to come out so we can actually see with our own eyes how it works...

as for the teamwork scoring, it ain't perfect... hell nothing's perfect in this world... it'd be a boring place to live in if it were... i'm just glad that the teamwork aspect is actually showing up... sure i won't be awarded teamwork bonuses if i'm setting up a firebase and laying down suppressive fire for my team, but hey, **** happens... 'sides, like warren said, it's just a bonus

instaposted... :con:
as for 10m... 10m is a decent distance apart... a nade'll take out maybe 2 if you're lucky, but 10m is a safe enough patrol distance... now if you're talking about everyone cluster****ing ina small 10 foot circle, then i'd call 'em grenade bait...

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 01:00 PM
I will say that I CARE about individual statistics in public games. You can't have people randomly logging on and off and expect teamwork. It just doesn't work.

I play public games to hone my skills. Yes I want my side to win, and if I see some of the guys I usualy play with, I'll link up with them. However, I'm there to kick ass, not that I kick that much ass :) . When I have a good match and the rest of my team sucked I like to see that I did well and got my share of kills. I would have a liked a simple one kill, one point system.

The measure of teamplay is alot easier. Red wins or Blue wins.

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 01:19 PM
What I would like to see added is, if I were to kill someone who is within 5m of a teammate I get rewarded for that even though I'm not within 10m. Because I get the feeling the people who like to sit back and provide cover will not do that anymore because there efforts are'n't getting recognized.

I agree LoTekk. We'll only know how good/bad the new system will be once we've tried it. But constructive criticism now might prevent holes form appearing later. I like the fact though that Warren/Beppo/Shakken give their input on things. It shows they're dedicated and that they listen.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by MUF Antagonist
First on a public server I don't care about anyone but myself! I'll shoot you if you walk in front, or I'll nade you just because a enemy is near
That is everything i hate about public servers summed up in two neat sentences. you oughtta be ashamed of yourself. You remind me of a player on my team who would TK cause "we were in his way" , nice strategy dumbass he ended up with 3 points with the next lowest person on the scoreboard with 32.

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 01:25 PM
Ahem.... if you think we're getting 4 point scored then I beg you to try us out. I think the thought that was being conveyed is, playing on the same team with 7 guys I don't know from Mr. Patel at the gas station, I care about MY score. Not yours. Yes, I want the team to win, but in a public game, with people logging on and logging off every couple minutes, MY score is what means something to me. My whole team can suck and not play as a team and lose, and I still like to see if I could break 70 with my m9 psg loadout.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 01:35 PM
Why does everyone care about themselves so much? THIS is why the a gaming community goes to hell. Rude, selfish people who care about points more than having fun and meeting new people. It disgusts me.

LoTekK
16th Aug 2001, 01:43 PM
well said eddievedder... i've personally had some great pub server matches with people i don't know... two notables off the top of my head are GAT-Rogue and McMuffin...

and mondoguy, i agree with constructive criticism... that's always the best way to improve... however i've seen so much bitching in the past two days about features people haven't even seen in action yet that it's getting on my nerves... :con:

WizBiz, i dub thee: instaposted! :D (does that mean i get your poast added to my post count then? ;) )

WizBiz
16th Aug 2001, 01:43 PM
People like to see how they do in comparison to others in all aspects of everything. You call it rude and selfish, I call it being competitive.

BTW... I think that if I post within 5 minutes of someone, I should get their post added to my post count as well.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by WizBiz
People like to see how they do in comparison to others in all aspects of everything. You call it rude and selfish, I call it being competitive.


There is nothing wrong with friendly competition, but when you sacrifice teamplay and goodwill just so you can get those couple extra points you have a problem. I'd hate to be friends with you if that is your mentality.

<P^R>Imperial
16th Aug 2001, 01:52 PM
Amen eddievedder

{MUF}Dakin
16th Aug 2001, 01:58 PM
*pokes some people* How many of you have succesfully organized a bunch of people on a public server to use a team tactic and won the round going so? Hmm?

WizBiz
16th Aug 2001, 02:06 PM
Actually eddie, I don't see it as being rude and selfish, I was merely quoting you. I think you attached those words to demonize someone who likes to see their statistics to justify your argument. Either way, I play Infiltration on public servers to improve my personal skills. I practice with my clan in private to improve our teamwork skills.

This comes from the manual:

Player classes donít exist, soldier!

The weapons and equipment that you choose, along with how you use those items in game will determine what kind of soldier you are. We give you the tools to do the job. How you do it is up to you. Take the skills you learn to other missions and objectives. If you become a talented sniper, itís because you develop the skill and respect to use the weapon properly, along with the tactics involved.
Player classes donít exist, soldier!

I just don't see why you would try to encourage someone to play differently based on their score. This new scoring system, in my opinion, goes against the philosophy ("How you do it is up to you")written on the front page of the manual, which is quoted above.

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 02:10 PM
You guys aren't getting my point. I LOVE teamplay. That's why I play INF. Of course, you will NEVER get teamplay on any server unless the people on are used to playing together and are like minded. I play in the ILCR Primary league and Strategy League because I love teamplay, but Dakin's point is true on pubs. Try to get a team together on public servers and play as a team against another such team. That's called a match.

In the games that you just pop in to get some kills there usualy isn't teamplay... sometimes I like to jump in for a 5-6 rounds when I have a few minutes free from the kids. Alot of people are like that... play one map or so and leave, sometimes 2 rounds then AFK. I don't mind it, but I look at it as a time to showcase individual talents. The teamplay comes in clan matches. Look at clans who have guys in the top 20 in CLQ... they rock the public servers, but get nailed to the ground in matches. Why is that? Teamplay.

Don't accuse me of being against teamplay. Just realize that you DON'T get pickup games where everyone is into the "team" spirit. THAT'S why my individual score matters to me.

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 02:10 PM
I have not been the person to organize the team, but, I have played plenty of matches on pubs where someone did organize the team and we did win. Just for the record, this has never ever been the case when I have played on a MUF server. The only servers I ever see this happen on is the SOB servers because the people are just all around better at team play and at the very least <i>try</i> to be part of the team. I run into more <i>Rambos</i> on the MUF servers than anywhere else, which is why I only play there when the SOB servers are booked solid.

If I had to guess the reason, it would be that the SOB members keep the peace on their servers and try to help people out instead of joining in the fray of disorganized run and gun me me me tactics like I see on the MUF servers.

Kuroshio Apocal
16th Aug 2001, 02:10 PM
Me.

EDIT: This was intended as a response to Dakin.

Instaposted by 3 people, that can't be good.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 02:12 PM
I'm not trying to get people to change their style of play, unless of course that style of play involves blasting your teammate in the back in order to boost your personal score. Are you that vain? Is it that important to define yourself by your score? Do you fail IRL so you must validate yourself by getting a high score in a computer game? Look at yourself and ask these questions. You might be disgusted with the answers you come up with.
EDIT_ this is a reply to wizbiz.

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 02:14 PM
3) the scoreboard, as it provides information, is a way to help you personally work better as a team. Infiltration is a harder game than most. The weapons are harder, and the movement is harder- which is why working as a team is important.

All nice and peachy but it just doesn't work that way. It didn't work in Firearms, It didn't work in CS (they even canceled the Scoreboard back in the early days and people were still going for frags so they could see them at the end of the game and look at their 1337 skillz.
As long as you base rank on kills you can toss any hope of teamwork out the window. Especially with certain "people" (like eddie vedder pointed out) in the community allready and more are to come.

KILLS WILL HAVE TO GO, that is if you care in the slightest bit about teamwork.


The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.


Scoring should be based on a combination of teamwork and accuracy.
At the end of the game it'll be one team congratulating the other on their good tactics/excellent teamwork/smart moves whatever. Rather then mr 1337W4nK3r spamming his score.

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 02:17 PM
Ok now you're criticizing how I run my servers? Just for the record I play on the SOBservers sometimes as well (when MUF2001 is filled), and I don't see what you're talking about. I run and gun and have topped out, score-wise, in 5 minutes a game that had been running for 15 minutes. I'm not THAT good (have my moments of goodness sometimes), but I never see these "team matches". Have you ever played in any INF clan matches?

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 02:20 PM
screw this...it is like arguing with a tree...only with slightly less intelligent feedback

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 02:22 PM
My point is that if there is GREAT teamplay, how does could a mediochre player like myself absolutely rule a team playing together? Get in some clan matches. You don't know what teamplay is.

Warren
16th Aug 2001, 02:22 PM
I guess I can see in some extremely abstract, 3rd dimension way how you could consider that statement from the manual to be individualistic. The core nature of Infiltration is based on teamwork. It's implied. Obviously if you can pick that out of the manual, I need to change it to include working as a team specifically. :rolleyes:

In my opinion, teamwork rarely works on public servers because players don't even bother trying. "It's too hard" so why bother. It's not like you have to take 5 minutes and strategize the whole match- even teamwork in it's simplest form goes along with the Infiltration Philosophy more than individualism. Just pick a guy and follow him around, watch his back- if he appreciates it, he'll watch yours too. If not, he'll probably let you know not to follow him.

We can't force people to work as a team- but the nature of Infiltration is teamwork- no exceptions. I guess people can express they're desire to compete all they want, but we won't take what I feel is a step back. heh, I may be wrong, but that's our goal, so we might as well make it as clear as possible. And others complain about taking the fun away. Well, we find this kind of game play fun. To me, it's thrilling to get on a server with people you don't know and work as a team with them, even if it's as simple as sticking together in pairs. We also can't make a perfect game, but it sure as hell beats being like everyone else.

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 02:22 PM
Eddie, take a chill pill. Can anybody have an opinion without being judged by the ole mighty EddieVedder? Quote: "I'd hate to be friends with you if that is your mentality". Did you ever stop to think that maybe they aren't looking for your friendship? If you want total teamwork join a clan and play competitively with other clans in a league but don't critisize and critique others who may have a different opinion. How are you supposed to team up with any individual in a public server anyway? Stop in the middle of everything and type? INF is supposed to be fun and that's the bottom line. When I go into a public server I play the best that I can so that my team will win, however if we do lose...no big deal, we'll try to get them next time. Now if it was a clan league match and we spent numorous hours going over the map developing strategies and we lost, then yes it would hurt a bit because we spent time going over teamwork. There's no way you can have 100% true teamwork on a pub server considering you don't even know most of your teammate's skills, not to mention the lack of communication ie: BattleCom, or Roger Wilco.

Perhaps you can start your own server where a communication device is required to play on it, that way you can have communication with the other players which btw is THE ONLY way to implement teamwork.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 02:24 PM
NAHNAH NAH NAH Warren's on our side so there! :)

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by eddievedder
I'm not trying to get people to change their style of play, unless of course that style of play involves blasting your teammate in the back in order to boost your personal score.


Um Eddie, now I see where you are coming from! You must be referring to teammates such as Patrick and Taylor because you obviously don't play online. I'll fill you in on a little something...when you shoot your teammate online you get NEGATIVE points, therefore how can somebody BOOST their score by blasting your teammate in the back?

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Sup?
Eddie, take a chill pill. Can anybody have an opinion without being judged by the ole mighty EddieVedder?
:lol:
I judge by what i see, when someone vehementally states that they would kill one of their own to save their ass, rest assured i will look down upon their ethics. YOU don't have to be liked by me, But I live by a set of morals and ethics and if you Teamkill to increase your pointage than fine, It just means i wont like you. No big deal. And why do i need to take a chill pill for expressing my opinion in a reasonable manner. I have a feeling alot of people on these boards will agree with me. THIS is a community and WE should treat each other with respect.

WizBiz
16th Aug 2001, 02:31 PM
Eddie: I am a huge vain, failure which causes me to put all my effort into a computer game! :rolleyes: Ease up on the personal attacks FF! When did I ever say I kill my own teammates if there is a chance to improve my own score? I do not deny that I go 100% to achieve my goals. I am a competitive person who likes to see stats. Yes, I do enjoy seeing how I compare to others via statistics. I would also use the stats to recruit new teamates as well as scouting opposing teams. I understand that you cant judge anyone on stats alone, but it is a start.

I do not play INF JUST for meeting new friends, however, it is a bonus.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Sup?



Um Eddie, now I see where you are coming from! You must be referring to teammates such as Patrick and Taylor because you obviously don't play online. I'll fill you in on a little something...when you shoot your teammate online you get NEGATIVE points, therefore how can somebody BOOST their score by blasting your teammate in the back?

LOL i think you can tell my opinion on bots by my SIG. :) I mean sacrificing your friendly's life in order to take out 3 enemies or so. See its basic math you lose points for one TK but make up for it with the other kills.

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 02:32 PM
Maybe all you "you can't have teamwork on publics" people are new to on-line gaming. That would explain a lot.

Ofcourse you could also just be plain old stupid... another pheasable answer.

TEAMWORK WORKS ON PUBLICS, JUST NOT WITH DICKS LIKE YOU GUYS.

****ING **** **** MORON ****ING ****ERS!!!!

RAAAAAAGHH!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

screw respect, people who'd feel intellectually threathened by most of my household appliances don't deserve respect.

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Cholo Grande
Get in some clan matches. You don't know what teamplay is. Dude, I have had loads of clan matches in other games, and team work is team work no matter what game is being discussed. I was in two different OGL #1 clans for 4v4 Quake 2 OSP Tourney Instagib Clans. The second clan I was in even had #1 spot on PG for about a month or so. Don't go dissing my ideals of team work when you have absolutely not clue one, no ticket for the clue bus and fresh out of clue cola. You just don't get it and I guess you never will. Team play will not develop on a pub UNLESS YOU TRY. I play CTF in pubs all the damn time and I see team work all the damn time. Whenever people like you join a server with your type of attitude, the game goes to complete and utter sh!t. You are the proverbial <i>wrench in the works</i>; you are the problem. If it was not for people like you who just give up, there would be team work. Why not become part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Whenever I join a server, I always choose a partner, whether he has asked for it or not. I provide cover fire for him if he needs to move out and I cover his backside. If I go with a group of people, I do the same thing. It really is not that difficult to try!

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 02:35 PM
Yup, you got me Fur...I'm a total newbie and a dick. Now, are you 13 or 14 years old?

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 02:37 PM
:rolleyes: the question is how old are you... and in case you live in a trailer park cut that number in half.

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 02:38 PM
umm...sup? I think you completely missed the point of that post :hmm:

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 02:42 PM
Fur, older than you, and better at INF as well. Oh, and my daddy can beat up your daddy.

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 02:50 PM
*sigh*

If you'd be any more stupid you'd be a tree.

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 02:56 PM
Thank you Fur, you don't know how much that hurts coming from a 13 year old on summer vacation. Surprised it took you so long to reply! Is AOL giving you problems again?

WizBiz
16th Aug 2001, 02:57 PM
Fur, how about hopping up on the handle bars of your sisters bike and have her drive you to the local candy store. You obviously are missing something(sugar maybe) out of your diet to be such a coplete dick to everyone who disagrees with you.

Warren
16th Aug 2001, 02:57 PM
knock it off. Take it to off topic if you want to spank each other's pee-pee's.

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 02:58 PM
Oh no, the tree has been joined by a rock... and they are attempting to insult me...

RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Warren
knock it off. Take it to off topic if you want to spank each other's pee-pee's.
Agreed. This has gotten too off topic. And more along the lines of a pure flamefest.

The_Fur
16th Aug 2001, 03:02 PM
Teamwork is important to me, and this is a team game. So those who want it to turn into a fragfest can go and jump off tall buildings onto pointy objects.

So far not a single game has succeeded in becoming a actual team game because of these "people".
They immediately start their whining about "but it's not fun" and other insightfull comments like "frags are fun" and ofcourse "if you want teamwork join a clan" as if we pub players don't have a right to decent games.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by The_Fur
Teamwork is important to me, and this is a team game. So those who want it to turn into a fragfest can go and jump off tall buildings onto pointy objects.

So far not a single game has succeeded in becoming a actual team game because of these "people".
They immediately start their whining about "but it's not fun" and other insightfull comments like "frags are fun" and ofcourse "if you want teamwork join a clan" as if we pub players don't have a right to decent games.
Very true. I will NOT join a clan, does that not entitle me to a good clean game with teamwork and fun? Looks like it doesnt. :(

LoTekK
16th Aug 2001, 03:09 PM
I will NOT join a clan,
why not? (no sarcasm or anything, just plain curiosity)

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:13 PM
EH... no desire to, besides what clan would want me? I'm not that great anyways. ITS more fun not being tied down to something. I need to strut my wings.

{PhD}Teutonic
16th Aug 2001, 03:23 PM
It amazes me how many non-team players extole the virtues of teamplay. If you are so damm interested in teamplay, and you have the talent, then why not join one of the many teams/squads/clans that are out there expressly for that purpose?

Its rather sad how many of the INF Forum regulars complain about rushers, proners, naders, Rambo tactics, and the utter lack of teamwork on public servers, but you rarely (if ever) see them online.

Teamplay can only exist if you KNOW YOUR TEAMMATES!

After you have played on a map 30 times with the same group of guys, you instinctively know what weapons they use, how they move on the map, what areas they cover etc. You also know the strengthes and weaknesses of a particular map, where the bottlenecks are to snipe your enemy, what areas to avoid, etc.

During practices you work on different strategies for a particular map; what to do against campers, or rushers, how to play when you are down rounds, and how to play when you are up, etc.

Public servers can be fun, (I own one myself), but you will never get a true Teamplay experience on one playing with strangers/newbies/assholes, all of which drop in during the course of a map.

So if you want to prove your opinions as valid, gather some teammates, practice, and then challenge an established team to a scrimmage and then lets see where the chips fall.

GNAT
16th Aug 2001, 03:27 PM
what a fookin load of freaks

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 03:28 PM
Who are these "people" you speak of Fur? If you are referring to anybody from MUF or GHOST you couldn't be more wrong, we are all about teamwork. We just concentrate our teamwork committment in clan matches where you have control of the teamwork. On public servers I strive to kill the badguys, is that not attempting to help my team? Or do I have to stick around 3 other guys waiting to be taken out with a single frag trying to "pretend" to play teamwork? Just curious, it's all I could up with being a tree! LOL

On another note, I think a little more respect should go out to people from clan's like MUF and SOB. They have dug deep into their pockets and sacrificed a lot of their time for the INF community. One certainly doesn't think that these servers are free do they? If these 2 clan's hadn't shelled out the time and money for this community, the community would be limited to playing with strictly Patrick and Taylor, posting on this message board (which wouldn't hurt some), and playing on less adequate servers. (There are a couple of good servers out there besides SOB and MUF).

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 03:33 PM
Let me try to clear things up for both sides, since I share the feeling of both.

First of all, I've been in a CS clan. CS teamplay is nothing like INF. There is a alot more at stake in INF. So you shouldn't really compare DM/non-realism type games to INF, Nevermore (which is a great band btw :))

For those of you who want real teamplay, the only way we will get this is with a good Comm system. Either something like RW/Battlecom or just voice commands in the game. Which I think could be done much better than the current system. I want good teamplay on pubs too, you just won't see it happen like the way you want it. I've tried buddying up with poeple on pubs, 50% of the time it works, 50% of the time they don't pay attention to me.

Now just to show how important good communication is the key to teamwork. In clan matches with GHOST, we use a voice comm system called Battlecom. With this we know where everyone is at all times. Now sometimes it crashed, when this happens teamwork becomes MUCH harder. We can still function, but to put it simply, a team without voice comms Vs a team with voice comms is going to lose everytime.

Now, when I join a pub I'm looking to have some fun, and I've made quite a few friends. I try to play with teamwork in mind but it's not my primary objective. Sometimes I just like to let lose, grab my AKMSU-only loadout and rush like a f00. If I die I don't care because I'm having fun.

So in the end...the only way we will see real teamwork on pubs is to have a good comms system, untill then it will only be a dream. IMO CS had a good comm system, I'd to see something like that brought to INF.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:35 PM
I dont play on sob or muf servers much cause the people generally suck ass. Bug exploiters and teamkillers.... usually i stick to smaller servers that people run themselves. Besides who wants to play the same ****ty maps that you guys run all the time anyway? VIVA LA INDEPENdE!!!!

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by eddievedder
EH... no desire to, besides what clan would want me? I'm not that great anyways.

But I thought skill isn't what counts? I though it was a teamplay attitude is what counts? IMO a clan that looks for recruits solely based on skill won't go anywhere. *bites tongue not to mention a certain clan*

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:39 PM
Mondo i just wanted to say i love your sig, been meaning to say that for awhile.
EDIT The simpson's quote

robrob
16th Aug 2001, 03:45 PM
I have played w/ and against Sup?, Wiz and a number of members of GHOST and MUF. Both are great groups of guys.

In retrospect I think Antag was being a little over the top to make a point....point taken. By far most clan members are solid and fair.

To my point, there is teamwork on pub servers. Not to the extent of a clan but there is enough to warrent encouraging this behavior with the new scoring method. I am looking forward to trying it out.

Fur... and especially you eddie (if thats really your name) ;) guys relax a bit. The guys you are harshing on are solid. I have not played against or w/ Antag but I have my doubts that he would really toss a grenade my direction while I was engaging the baddies.

As for Sup? and Wiz aside from missing an AA meeting occasionally they dont derserve your off topic name calling :D

And one more thing...Warren said "pee-pee" heheh

CyanideTriscuit
16th Aug 2001, 03:45 PM
With all of this talk about REAL teamwork and such... Of course the most effective teamwork can only be had by communication (BattleCom or RogerWilco), but that doesn't mean that lack of voice comms immediately turns the game into a frag fest. The best us indies can have ATM is simple, basic teamwork, like knowing where your teammates are and pairing up (but not to the point of fragbait), and we would like loner run-n-gunners to not ruin it for those of us who try.

Oh, yeah, and I believe that the topic was "Proximity != Teamwork," which I completely agree with. Proximity == Fragbait, Teamwork == Communication + Coordination.

GNAT
16th Aug 2001, 03:52 PM
fur, eddie, if you want teamplay call up all your friends or organize a group on these forums to join a server and practice or play. Nobody says you can't have teamplay without joining a clan. But what is much more difficult is getting teamplay out of a public game.

Let me express my reasons for kicking everyones ass on my server in rambo mode. (Yes I am a self centered egotistical pig) Or whatever else that may "disgust" you.

My reasons are simple... In a normal week we have 2 clan matches within the MUF clan. These are league matches. The group we are in the "Imperial Junta" has FOUR matches a week. We share players between the clans involved in the Imperial junta and it is very possible for someone to be in alot of matches in one week. This of course does not include our practices. We gather 2-3 times a week for organized practice on private servers.

Now just imagine the amount of gaming this includes. 2 matches and 3 practices. Its like a part time job, 5 DAYS A WEEK.

Now imagine for a second that we MUF have setup SIX, count the SIX servers, four of which are public. Tell me why it is that I am not allowed or that I do not have the right to take a freakin break from teamplay! Give me one good reason why I can't take a break and play without the preasure of a tight clanmatch. For christ sakes they're my servers. Can I go to the SOB servers and play like a rambo for some quick no preasure enjoyable kick back games????? Yes, I've earned the right myself by playing my ass off in matches and team"play" practices.

Should I get on a public server and change my play to accomodate someone else when all I want to do is relax? I've been playing 5 days a week in organized teamplay matches, dont I deserve a break?

Thats what I do on public servers, I play to have fun... The most of the teamwork I put into a pub game consists of about 10 mapped out voice commands. Which I use constantly and it keeps me in touch with whoever else is responding. When I play on pubs I want a break from having to type out or talk on rw about possible strategies. Yes I run with backup people, or back people up all the time. This is teamwork! Its limited but it is teamwork that makes a difference. I do all this while being a billy badass and having fun in a much needed break from serious matchplay. Are you criticizing that? I should hope not because none of you have any right too. The only people that can even respond to this are the people that are in the same boat as I am that put as much freakin effort into playing team-based matches and practices.

I like Teutonics Idea, you freaks put together your team and challenge say the ILCR north american "all star" team of which I am the captain. We are all billy badasses that can control a public game like nobodies business and see how far you get. Most of all you will be plesently supprised at the amount of unseen teamwork and general intuition of a seasoned veteran of match play.

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 03:55 PM
Fur, sorry for all the name calling. I don't think it's a constructive way of getting our points across.

Robrob, thx for the props...I've only missed 3 AA meetings in the past year! LOL

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:57 PM
I didnt say you cant have fun..... geez what i was pissed at is people who will sacrifice their team in order to save their own hide. This shows no honor and frankly disgusts me.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Sup?
Fur, sorry for all the name calling. I don't think it's a constructive way of getting our points across.

Robrob, thx for the props...I've only missed 3 AA meetings in the past year! LOL

HMM ... bold letters with secret messages ... that's mature

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 04:11 PM
Wow! And I didn't even purposely do that! Weird!:D

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by MoNDoGuY
First of all, I've been in a CS clan. CS teamplay is nothing like INF. There is a alot more at stake in INF. So you shouldn't really compare DM/non-realism type games to INF, Nevermore...I heartily disagree with that sentiment. One of the things that made us undefeated for 4+ months on OGL was the fact that our element of team work was above the normal type of DM/non-realism game plan. We had actual strategies planned out to exploit the choke points and hold areas in check. People were assigned objectives and positions to maintain on the maps we played. We did not use BC or RW, we used in game team chat to manage all of this. When we play on the pubs, it is SOP to set up strategies with the people we play with (I am speaking of Q2, mind you, not inf--my clan is still very active in Q2...buggers won't move over to INF yet). My point is, it is not out of the question for <i>some</i> level of team work to exist in pubs and when it comes to real team work, it is not game specific, regardless of whether it is a DM/non-realism game or a semirealistic simulation. Team work = team work....Nevermore (which is a great band btw :))I would not know. I have never heard any of their music. Nevermore=The Raven=PoeWe can still function, but to put it simply, a team without voice comms Vs a team with voice comms is going to lose everytime.hogwash.Now, when I join a pub I'm looking to have some fun, and I've made quite a few friends. I try to play with teamwork in mind but it's not my primary objective.Great! I am glad. These m0m0s are saying they do not even try half-heartedly to play with at least some element of teamwork in mind. That is what I have a problem with. How can someone ever get good enough at team work to join a clan if these buggers are running around like looneys, not even trying to set an example of how to play as a team? Is it common practice to recruit greens?

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 04:22 PM
c+k|nEVeRmOre, what's your in game name?

St0rmcaller
16th Aug 2001, 04:24 PM
I'm with everyone else that said it must be seen first. Seeing is believing as they say, no?

And concerning the non-voice comm teamwork, I believe the hogwash comment is right. On the AFA server, we have seen some outstanding teamwork being performed without voice comm. And on a side note, I'd like to thank GAT-Rogue right here and now for being the one who always died first on DM-INF-Island just to let me know where the enemy is. :D

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Sup?
c+k|nEVeRmOre, what's your in game name? wesley_sniper

Sup?
16th Aug 2001, 04:33 PM
For those that disagree with the voice comm, tell that to the successfull clans, they ALL use it...and rightfully so.

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 04:38 PM
I am not saying that successful clans do not use voice over IP solutions, but, that in and of itself does not make a clan great. I do not agree that a clan will lose just because they are not using VOIP and the other clan is. That is just nutz :hmm:

-GAT-Rogue
16th Aug 2001, 04:58 PM
i got halfway down page 2 and couldnt read anymore of the "you're a newbie who doesnt like teamwork, no im older and my daddy can beat up yours" comments....so if my post looks like its old thats why:p


the only reason teamwork doesnt work on public servers is because 99.9% of the people online dont care about teamwork, they just want a run n gun game thats more realistic than tacops...
if you wanted to do teamwork like you say you do, you would. plain and simple.
when i first started playing on the AFA server i didnt know anyone, and i just asked if i could "work" with them, and it was 10x more fun than run n gun.

inf is about teamwork, its a "military sim". and i play online alot (too much....:rolleyes: ) and i hate run n gun, rambo type play more and more....teamplay is just more fun.
p.s. this is not intended to flame anybody, just posting why i think teamwork doesnt work

St0rmcaller
16th Aug 2001, 05:03 PM
Psst, Rogue...Look up a few posts and find mine. :D

LoTekK
16th Aug 2001, 05:07 PM
And on a side note, I'd like to thank GAT-Rogue right here and now for being the one who always died first on DM-INF-Island just to let me know where the enemy is.
lol storm! :D
(although i shouldn't talk... i probably died first on an exponentially more frequent basis... :D)

i got halfway down page 2 and couldnt read anymore of the "you're a newbie who doesnt like teamwork, no im older and my daddy can beat up yours" comments....
amen, rogue...

when i first started playing on the AFA server i didnt know anyone, and i just asked if i could "work" with them, and it was 10x more fun than run n gun.
way to pimp our server rogue! :)
seriously, though, i gotta take my hat off to rogue... first time he came on the server it was immediately apparent that teamplay was of great importance to him... we were covering each others' backs, employing bounding overwatch, and it was great... a helluva lot more fun, imo, than rambo-ing it alone, and certainly more involving... saved each others' asses on more than one occasion, too, which absolutely rocked... oh yeah, and this was without voice comms, too... couple of well placed speechbinds, gesturing using your weapon, etc... sure, rw would be nice, but it's not absolutely essential...

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 05:10 PM
LMAO@Wesly Sniper! I never said that killing a team mate to get kills was in my bag of tricks. I said that, if someone gets in my LOF while I was in a firefight and I have to choose between letting off the trigger and dieing (BECAUSE OF THEIR DUMB ASS) or letting off the trigger and them maybe getting the kill or maybe not, I would not let off the trigger in a public game. BTW I've been hit by the same **** before and I will applogize for not watching you LOF.

I am truly impressed with how my topic has blossomed. If ANYONE remembers I was voicing a SMALL gripe with the scoring system. Proximity does not equal teamplay. Since we have so many teamplay experts (whom I've never seen in a league or even in my "challenge" book) who know EVERYTHING about teamplay while I know nothing, I assume that all of you know that solid teamplay on many maps, especialy the larger ones, would not include being close to each other. In other words, from what I read in my quick scim of the manual, I will not be awarded teamplay points because I didn't stand withing multi-kill range of my mate.

On another note, the "rambo" players that get a bad rep are the ones that usualy kick ass in matches as well. When I dream up match strategy for a particular map I usualy have a larger squad that each member is assigned choke points and cover positions, while a smaller group of one or two "rambos" makes up the frontal assault team. The MUF clan has solid teamplay. We were in the sem-filals of the ILCR Infiltration league, a place you don't get to without solid teamplay.

-GAT-Rogue
16th Aug 2001, 05:15 PM
since there is so much inf bashing now....
i will join in!
inf score system sucks, i wont get bonus points for using my 3 weapon combo and not following my teammate!
this free mod sucks!!!!



:p

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by St0rmcaller
And concerning the non-voice comm teamwork, I believe the hogwash comment is right. On the AFA server, we have seen some outstanding teamwork being performed without voice comm. And on a side note, I'd like to thank GAT-Rogue right here and now for being the one who always died first on DM-INF-Island just to let me know where the enemy is. :D

Well why don't we see who right here. Let's have a srimmage. GHOST uses voice comms, AFA doesn't. If you can manage to beat us without voice comms then I applaud you and I was wrong. Not many clans can do that to us even with voice comms.

BTW Storm what you're talking about there is ghosting. That's not really teamwork. I personally hate ghosting and think it should done away with it.

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Cholo Grande
On another note, the "rambo" players that get a bad rep are the ones that usualy kick ass in matches as well. When I dream up match strategy for a particular map I usualy have a larger squad that each member is assigned choke points and cover positions, while a smaller group of one or two "rambos" makes up the frontal assault team. The MUF clan has solid teamplay. We were in the sem-filals of the ILCR Infiltration league, a place you don't get to without solid teamplay.

Same goes for GHOST on that one.

AFA, I've never seen your server. Is it up all the time or only at certain times? What's the name of it? Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

The insta-posting in this thread is rampant.

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 05:24 PM
Key word was SMALL. SMALL gripe. Proximity doesn't equate to good teamplay. Simple statement.

And I never said INF sucks. I love INF, and it's the input of this community of beta testers that builds this game. I expect we'll all be slapping out $30 for the mod pretty soon, and I think that the a loud voice from the player community has helped this alot. If I think I may not like something and get people talking, future releases may change because of this voice. That is one of the key factors in the success of Infiltration.

LoTekK
16th Aug 2001, 05:36 PM
BTW Storm what you're talking about there is ghosting. That's not really teamwork. I personally hate ghosting and think it should done away with it.
take it easy, mondo, we know full well what ghosting is... in that particular match "the enemy" happened to be storm's own ops chief, namely moi... :D

on a more important note:
can't we all just get along???
christ, this thread has become, as rogue so aptly put it, a "you're a newbie who doesnt like teamwork, no im older and my daddy can beat up yours" thread... let's just all take a breather and chill out, eh?

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Cholo Grande
LMAO@Wesly Sniper! I never said that killing a team mate to get kills was in my bag of tricks. I said that, if someone gets in my LOF while I was in a firefight and I have to choose between letting off the trigger and dieing (BECAUSE OF THEIR DUMB ASS) or letting off the trigger and them maybe getting the kill or maybe not, I would not let off the trigger in a public game. BTW I've been hit by the same **** before and I will applogize for not watching you LOF.And I agreed with you if you recall. I will also apologize if I happen to walking into someone's LOF like a moron. I never said it was in your bag of tricks. I was talking about Antagonist.Originally posted by MUF Antagonist
First on a public server I don't care about anyone but myself! I'll shoot you if you walk in front, or I'll nade you just because a enemy is near!remember?I am truly impressed with how my topic has blossomed. If ANYONE remembers I was voicing a SMALL gripe with the scoring system. Proximity does not equal teamplay.You are the one who insinuated yourself into the off topic. My comments were leveled squarely at Antagonist until you started mouthing off.Since we have so many teamplay experts (whom I've never seen in a league or even in my "challenge" book) who know EVERYTHING about teamplay while I know nothing, I assume that all of you know that solid teamplay on many maps, especialy the larger ones, would not include being close to each other. In other words, from what I read in my quick scim of the manual, I will not be awarded teamplay points because I didn't stand withing multi-kill range of my mate.First off, I never said you know nothing about team play, I said you know nothing about me. Get it straight. Second, I cannot get in your challenge book because I am not in an INF clan. Third, from experience, I completely agree that proximity as a measure of team work is completely absurd. Many of my best strats involved spreading out on large maps. Despite great distances, good communication and team work were still the deciding factor in the efficacy of the strategy.On another note, the "rambo" players that get a bad rep are the ones that usualy kick ass in matches as well. When I dream up match strategy for a particular map I usualy have a larger squad that each member is assigned choke points and cover positions, while a smaller group of one or two "rambos" makes up the frontal assault team.hehe...the funny thing is, that is a great example of some of the better team strategies implemented by the top clans on the OGL Instagib ladders in both Q2 and Q3. Sorry, team work = team work no matter what game you are playing :pThe MUF clan has solid teamplay. We were in the sem-filals of the ILCR Infiltration league, a place you don't get to without solid teamplay. I never debated whether your clan was capable of team play in matches. It just irks me that I see all these clan types <i>Rambo</i>ing instead of making even a small attempt at team play in the pubs.

phatcat
16th Aug 2001, 05:43 PM
I like the new system :)

a man never goes alone in a situation, its not safe :eek:
you go in pairs to watch eachothers back

so you will always have atleast one guy near you to get you "proximity" points :)

It Promotes teamplay IMO :)

I stated this awhile ago when the it was suggested on my post awhile ago :rolleyes:

c+k|nEVeRmOre
16th Aug 2001, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by MoNDoGuY
If you can manage to beat us without voice comms then I applaud you and I was wrong. Not many clans can do that to us even with voice comms.It that is the case, I would imagine your clan could still beat a clan that was using VOIP while your clan was not. It is mostly about how well you work together, not about who has VOIP :p

Classified: Unknown
16th Aug 2001, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by MoNDoGuY
BTW Storm what you're talking about there is ghosting. That's not really teamwork. I personally hate ghosting and think it should done away with it.


I can't speak for Storm because I wasn't on his team, but I believe what he is referring to is seeing where the tracers are coming from, which is a big factor on big/realistic maps like brikby and island where you can normally see tracers before the actual person.

As far as when the server is up, currently we are figuring our settings/map cycle so the server is up from around 4 or 5 pm est. until 10ish the next morning, after we are done with this phase it will be up 24/7 except for when the internet connection is down.

NotBillMurray
16th Aug 2001, 06:08 PM
There's nothing greater than getting into a covering situation with someone else on a public server for me. It means that another person you've never met, and not in a clan with, has a similar philosophy regarding teamwork as you do. You don't have to participate as a team with everyone on your side, just with one other person. The new system completely encourages such activity.

BTW, I engage in this activity whenever I can. I would encourage every single other person to do so as well. Your team will do better and you will find that your survival rate is likely to increase.

I find the description of not letting go of the trigger because a teammate has crossed into your field of fire to be completely against the concepts of realism that form the foundation of INF. Would you do this in real life, even if the teammember was a complete moron with no respect to field of fire. I will always choose to place myself in danger by refusing to fire when a teammate is near than risk the TK (god knows I get enough of those by accident).

Give the new scoreboard a chance, and please be willing to sacrifice a few kills in favor of protecting a teammate. The only reason there is the lack of teamplay you perceive on the public servers is because you (the community) don't participate as a team. I would love to see the clan members play on public servers like they do during clan matches. Make some tactical suggestions with teamsay. Encourage players on your team to use RW or BC. I know we've all seen many of the same players on your favorite servers. There is no reason we can't promote teamwork at every turn.

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by LoTekK

take it easy, mondo, we know full well what ghosting is... in that particular match "the enemy" happened to be storm's own ops chief, namely moi... :D


I wasn't trying to be hostile at all. I was just pointing something out.

I'm just making a friendly challenge. I know you guys really work hard on your teamwork from what I've read, and I'd like to see it in action. We learn as much from our oponents as we do from ourselves.

It that is the case, I would imagine your clan could still beat a clan that was using VOIP while your clan was not. It is mostly about how well you work together, not about who has VOIP

True. But VOIP plays a big role in role in our game. It's just the way we are. If we had to play with out it I'm sure we could adjust.

MUF Antagonist
16th Aug 2001, 07:39 PM
Let me put something to rest for those that can't properly translate my encoding of sentences! I do not, purposly teamkill anyone, nor do I nade into my own team! That statement was to merely show you people how the majority of people play on publics! For those not bright enough to see that, there it is!

For anyone that thinks I am a tk'ing ho, bring it on! I'll be on a server all night to show you how teamwork is played! So come get your little lessons in how to play, as a single person, and then as a team!

St0rmcaller
16th Aug 2001, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by MoNDoGuY


Well why don't we see who right here. Let's have a srimmage. GHOST uses voice comms, AFA doesn't. If you can manage to beat us without voice comms then I applaud you and I was wrong. Not many clans can do that to us even with voice comms.

BTW Storm what you're talking about there is ghosting. That's not really teamwork. I personally hate ghosting and think it should done away with it.

I'd love to arrange a scrimmage! However, it could be difficult seeing as we (the AFA) have wildly varying schedules, and are still basically a newbie clan. We also play with a realistic playing style in mind, meaning, we don't have any dancing queens(trademark of GAT-Rogue:D) in the AFA. Well, okay maybe puncher, be he ain't right in the head (j/k puncher). The odds are stacked, but no one ever accused us military folk of being too bright. Let's try to work something out. Who do I have to talk to?

And also, CU is right, not ghosting, but rather watching them there nifty tracers pierce Rogues body many times over is what I meant. :D


[edit] So bring it on punk biatch! We're ready to hand you your own asses on a plate with tartar sauce! Ain't we guys! Uh...guys? Guys?...oh...sh!t...

JonnyBoyDT
16th Aug 2001, 08:36 PM
alright...I have to get a few things figured out here...after reading 4 pages of this I am left a little bit perplexed...

Eddie...You want realism...you want teamplay...you want no scores...do you really want a video game? Maybe instead of sitting around a computer screen shouting at people and computer players about how this is unrealistic and youre not using real tacitcs and whatnot drop the extra 200 pounds of baggage youve accumulated from eating french fries and pork grinds in your computer chair and join the army...I swear to God you will not find one rusher...one prone bug...one scoreboard...or even one m203 beign fired in a building.

As long as I can remember video games have been based around points...pacman...pong...all the oldies have. Taking out points from a video game would be like tearing out the heart of a human. What's the piont in playing if you don't have a goal?

As for AFA...I have seen you two play...and you use great tactics together. Eddie...fur...and the rest of you guys who don't want to play video games all you have to do is find ONE person willing to play how you like to play and youre set.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by JonnyBoyDT

Eddie...You want realism...you want teamplay...you want no scores...do you really want a video game? Maybe instead of sitting around a computer screen shouting at people and computer players about how this is unrealistic and youre not using real tacitcs and whatnot drop the extra 200 pounds of baggage youve accumulated from eating french fries and pork grinds in your computer chair and join the army...I swear to God you will not find one rusher...one prone bug...one scoreboard...or even one m203 beign fired in a building.


Well the best i can do is play paintball seeing as how i am 16 and that i do. But one can not play paintball and airsoft all the time, thats where combat simulators like INF come into play. And the only reason i would want to drop scores and whatnot is not because its unrealistic, its cause most people are too immature for scores. You all take the fun outta games by putting your individual score over your team score.

GHOST_Graphite
16th Aug 2001, 09:12 PM
Eddie: Your opinions strive toward a perfect war simulator. I ask you, what would be the point of this unless you are training to head out to a warzone? A real war is not fun, a computer game is, or at least should be.

A suggestion to the INF team:

The current Infiltration community resides on servers such as MUF, SOB, Onecall..at least 80% on those three alone. I think it would be of more value to listen to the people who play here than to the ones that just sit around all day trying to prove people wrong on the forums, who are RARELY (if ever) seen online. The bottom line is if a patch that does not satisfy the needs of the majority is released, either the Infiltration community will die, or the servers will continue to use the old patch. Just a suggestion. I like what you have done so far with Infiltration, but a few issues mentioned earlier in this thread with regards to the new patch concern me as well. I just don't want to see a good game go downhill because of the brilliant ideas of some 16 year olds.

MoNDoGuY
16th Aug 2001, 09:14 PM
Storm, you guys can play anyway you want, you not going to get any running and gunning form us. The person you wanna talk to is me, ICQ = 7230960. We'll set something up. I really don't care if you use VOIP or not. I'm just anxious to see you guys in action. I've already seen a newbie clan play and they're pretty damn good. ILCR is going to get much more competitve :D

And for my final 0.02$, I would like to see a bonus for killing someone within 5m or so of a teammate. And a better voice command system.

/me can't wait for 2.86!! :D

Wetwire
16th Aug 2001, 09:47 PM
FUN can be teamplay.

FUN can be the trigger-happy score the most points possible without concern for Teammates game (e.g. - Quake, HL, etc.)

FUN can be playing alone (my personel favorite.. hehe)

FUN can be any of those things, but the one thing that FUN should not be is NOT FUN :mad:

It sounds like a couple of you in here are not having any FUN! I do not believe I have every even seen some of you playing on a server (c+k|nEVeRmOre, eddievedder).

So tell me this. How is it you know so much about these issues when you do not even appear to be playing the game online?

I hope that in the future it becomes more FUN for you to play this great game. Until then.. Chin up fellas.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 09:59 PM
HMMMM.... i have alot of fun playing INF, let me just publically state that i think it is the best game ever and its basically the only game i play , aside from a little tropico... (DIE TROPICANS DIE!!! ) just wanna get this point across. Oh and i play online plenty, or have played online plenty... usually late at night tho from 10 pm to 3 am. EST. Some of you mighta seen me. But lately i havent played online too much because of rampant bug abuse and generally bad attitudes, but when i do play online nowadays its on a private server with a friend mano a mano, unless we fire up INFMonsters but thats altogether diff. Anyways, i find it funny that some of you defend your position even though Warren and other team members clearly state that they wish to encourage and foster teamplay on PUBs and whatnot. And THEY made the game. So dont tell the creators how their own game should be played. :D

JonnyBoyDT
16th Aug 2001, 10:16 PM
umm...I'm sorry for not kissing their asses? And I'm not saying that what Warren is trying to push is wrong...I merely I want to see personal kills...

I like to set goals...I got 40 points last match...now lets see if I can get 45 next time...thats a goal... humping a teammates leg to get your teamwork percent up is not a hard goal to improve upon...thats all im saying

heres my next question ol' Eddie...You say you strive for teamwork...you strive for that realism factor...you say that but you obviously don't mean it, because as you have stated you like to play mano y mano with monsters...theres teamwork for ya.

vedder
16th Aug 2001, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by JonnyBoyDT
umm...I'm sorry for not kissing their asses
heres my next question ol' Eddie...You say you strive for teamwork...you strive for that realism factor...you say that but you obviously don't mean it, because as you have stated you like to play mano y mano with monsters...theres teamwork for ya.
Do you have a brain disorder , dude? Sometmes we play mano a mano because my server cant handle much more than 2 people due to dsl... but we also team up against monsters thus making it teamwork! You are trying so hard to prove a point you are coming off as a spiteful jerk. And i am not kissing their asses i just want to express gratitude for this great game, becuase most people neglect to do this yet they are the first to point out "flaws" in the game. Chill out... no reason to use such a hateful "tone" with yall replys.

GHOST_Graphite
16th Aug 2001, 11:20 PM
Yes Ed, they made the game, and they can do whatever they want to it. However, it makes more sense to me and many others that the creator would want to please the majority of the INF community rather than the minority. But I'll leave that up to them to decide.

-GAT-Rogue
16th Aug 2001, 11:23 PM
i like inf (actually i love it...) and im all for fun, i just want to see the movements and play get a little more realistic.
in a game the only reward you get for yourself is points, but i also like teamwork.
i think, that inf should be more about moving around realistically, not tacops type running.
i dont want to get a perfect military sim, i just want inf to be more realistic in terms of moving etc.
i dunno bout u guys, but i think realistic games are fun as hell.
and storm...............u just wait till im not on your team and my tracers are piercing your flesh...:D

GHOST_Graphite
16th Aug 2001, 11:27 PM
Quote from eddie

"do you have a brain disorder , dude?"

You did exactly what you told Jonny not to do.

Meat Sac
16th Aug 2001, 11:41 PM
I do love it when 16 years olds say anything about Maturity (i.e. eddy). It is laughable.

Teamwork will no work on the pubs. You forum junkies just don't get it. Those who admin servers see this first hand. If we try and force people to play a certain style then they will leave. You cannot enforce team play. You can suggest it only. Team play exist in clan matches. It has been said before. You want team play then join a clan. It was stated to not tell Warren and company how to run this game. I say if I was Warren and the INF company I would want to know all this feedback. Especially those who are supporting the INF communities by putting up expensive servers. We are paying for the hardware and T3 lines to support everyone's online addiciton. Don't forget that people. So the previous MUF bashing is way out of line. I see very little appreciation for all the clans who front the cost so you can play online.

We all want to have fun. We just have different ideas which way this Mod should go.

I think personlized scoring has value. I like to know who is playing well and if I am kicking some ass or not. I think the scoring system did favor the cqb'ers and why not? Those are the dogs in the trenches fighting it out. The snipers got less points for a reason, lower risk. Maybe the scoring could go one point for one kill as a compromise.

I do wish most of you who constantly post here actually played online and really understood first hand what we are talking about when we say online team work is a challenge at best. EAS MIGHT give you a teamwork outlet. Deathmatch is Deathmatch, plain and simple. We play deathmatch for self fullfilling carnage. It is fun to run around and smack people down once in a while.

The INF forums always drop to the lowest common denominator when it comes to stating ones point of view. It starts with the best of intentions but gets lost when people lose it and start name calling and bitching. I have yet to read a thread that has a civil conversation throughout its entirety. Everyone wants teamwork? Try getting along for a change and let everyone play this game they way the want to. You can't tell anyone how to play a game, nor can they tell you. Keep that in mind. Now get off these boards and go play online for a change.

Cholo Grande
16th Aug 2001, 11:55 PM
True that! (on all of those insights, meat)

I don't know why I keep seeing people rag out my people with statements saying that we don't support teamplay. I think we all support teamplay. That's why we're in clans. That argument is just silly, so drop it. Wanting a personal score doesn't mean that you don't support teamplay. Since every discussion about the game seems to keep boiling down to this absurd "real life" cop out, I'll make an example on your level. Fighter pilots track their kills. Why? Don't they care about their buddy next to them flying? Of course, they also, in war time anyway, fight for the prestige that is laid upon them for individual excelence. With that said, please don't say anything else about real life Eddie. You're 16 and haven't seen it yet.

Somewhere I read that the pubs are home to bug abuses and poor sportsmanship. MUF does not allow bug exploits on our servers (ie. no proning/leaning). If you have a problem ICQ and admin and we'll straighten it out immediatly. I think I can say that the same thing goes for SOB and Onecall(PhD). SK's servers have been down for the most part, but when they're back up I can say the same thing for them. That's 95% of the quality servers so come out of hiding and show yourself.

I would also suggest the INFwar for those wanting some teamplay. They have mercs who can be picked up by clans for matches. I would like to see a good solid team match every time I get online, but it's not happening no matter what anyone does to the scoreboard. Occassionaly I get on with some guys and get a good game going, but you can't force everyone into playing soldier with you.

Dank
17th Aug 2001, 12:03 AM
Hey MUF, GHOST, GAT, and PhD guys !

Greetings, I just wanted to add my 2 cents.....

First of all I think we should all take a bong hit and chill out. http://www.overgrow.com/edge/images/smilies/bonghitter.gif

No need to get stingy here.

Thank you for choosing Infiltration, a squad-based, mission intensive, military oriented game that puts you in the first person perspective of any soldier in todayís world.†

You know why you're here...† You know what you have to do...† As the God of Spec War says, you don't have to like it, you just have to do it.

Infiltration has a style unlike most military FPS genres in that operational procedure may not be limited to just a covert role.† You and your squad may be given such grunt tasks as clearing an area of hostiles, cooperating in attacks on enemy installations, defense of allied equipment and facilities, or general reconnaissance.
With that said, Infiltration is dynamic enough to take on specific covert missions, sticking to situations with military action in mind. You may be called on to destroy targets such as command and control, personnel (assassinations), war-producing infrastructure, early warning equipment, or other related technology.† Regardless of what the Infiltration experience puts you though, the possibilities are endless.

For you to accomplish these daunting tasks, you will choose your equipment prior to the game.†† Start by selecting a pre-existing loadout or creating a new one.† Choose from a cache of modern day weapons, along with support equipment such as firearms scopes, laser pointers, flashlights, and grenade launchers.†

† †
Remember, you will be limited in weight and mass to what you can carry.† Every player will begin with an equal opportunity.† Player classes donít exist, soldier!

The weapons and equipment that you choose, along with how you use those items in game will determine what kind of soldier you are.† We give you the tools to do the job.† How you do it is up to you.† Take the skills you learn to other missions and objectives.† If you become a talented sniper, itís because you develop the skill and respect to use the weapon properly, along with the tactics involved.

Another thing, soldier!† The different venues you will be called into won't have weapons and ammunition lying about the area.† You must bring in what you can carry, and salvage what you need from comrades or the enemy.

Keep in mind that these bullets are for real.† One well placed shot, and you are out!† Use common sense, pay attention to detail, and watch your buddy's back.† The essence of team work separates the winners from the dead.

Take your missions seriously, and move with diligence. Running around aimlessly will only put your team and the entire mission at risk. Play it smart, and you might come out of this alive.
† - General Warren
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from the manual..... I think everyone needs to read it again. :D

Infiltration is about working as a team.

I think when 2.86+ comes out and EAS is in game working as a team will be the only way to go, or else you won't be able to complete your missions.

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 12:11 AM
didn't I just say that I think we're all in favor of teamwork? I just said that I don't like losing my individual score. Not that mine is that good anyway :)

Seriously, we all know what the game is. The discussion is about public games and the fact that sometimes in TDM everyone will just run around and kill the other guys. EAS will change alot and I think it will be pretty damn cool. Yes it will force more teamplay, but to get TRUE full on teamplay it's still going to only happen in matches.

Dank
17th Aug 2001, 12:18 AM
Agreed. :) http://www.overgrow.com/edge/images/smilies/bandit.gif

Shag
17th Aug 2001, 01:35 AM
I don't really mind the new system, but I don't think the proximity thing makes much sense. I like what they are trying to do, though. All of us like teamwork, that much is obvious.

The thing that is nice about the new system is you don't have players getting all haughty about their score. You are still recognized as having the most kills, but the opportunity to be seen as an INF god by the casual observer is gone. I think it will cut down on the smack and in some ways be nicer for newbs.

When you play this game as much as some of us do, it's not hard to join a server and cut through a team like butter. There is a joy in it, especially after a careful and tension filled clan match against organized opponents of equal skill. Just rushing with a shottie or an AK and mowing em down, knowing you're probably gonna die, but also knowin you're gonna take 2, 3, or 4 guys with you. Damn dudes, that should be reward enough, just the joy of it. The goddamsuperherofreaking coolness of it. If we know who the top dog is as far as kills go, isn't that enough? I can see how the new system might promote maturity. (I'm 37, so I can talk about maturity, even if I only have a little)

Personally I don't really care either way about scoring. I am mighty tired of TDM, though, and can't help but think that EAS is gonna solve so many problems.

WARREN, since I know you've been reading this thread, I want to say thanks for the mod!

And here is a quick idea: While we wait for EAS, how about a kind of domination lite? Three domination points, one near each spawn, one in the middle. Round ends when one team holds all points, when one team holds two points for a certain length of time, or when one team is dead. We've been kicking this around in the ILCR, but we lack the code.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 01:41 AM
*sigh*

here we go again.

To all you people whining: "teamwork won't work on publics" you are obviously either blind or just illiterate.

TEAMWORK WORKS ON POBLICS, if people give it a try.

I have allready stated, I've had many examples of teamwork with complete strangers, and this was simple because they didn't care about the frags yet simply because they were unaware. As soon as they found out it all went down the drains.
Best game of CS i've ever had lasted 15 seconds, we planned the round before, got into position and on my mark everybody went in at once at different points. It was almost like a real CT action, didn't lose anybody in our team and all the 's were down within those 8 seconds of action (7secs to get into place).
And we as a team were congratualted by the oposing team.
THIS is what a team game should be about, teamwork.
Just because it's a public doesn't mean you shouldn't have teamwork.

Now how can you discourage people just going off alone and trying teamwork instead? Exactly by scrapping the frags. By basing the score on the eachievement as a team you ecourage people to play like a team.

And if per chance you do not like this because to you "frags" equal fun and you cannot have fun without your precious score. Congratualtions you have just been awarded the "most shallow person of the year" award.
If you want to "play for fun" (your clan matches are not fun? why the hell are you playing them then?) why not try one of the many other non-teamwork games and let us teamplayers have our team game.

LoTekK
17th Aug 2001, 04:32 AM
this thread's just ridiculous right now... :sigh:

shag, if you want domination, i believe jaymian recently released a domination map with a light twist... i haven't tried it yet, but it certainly looks promising... check it out on realmaps (i believe it's DOM-INF-Domination)

TitanBlue
17th Aug 2001, 06:27 AM
LoTekK i love this thread. It's so... funny


TitanBlue :con:
...should give online playing a try, sounds funny :p

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 06:57 AM
True that last post by Fur was ridiculous. It's shallow to want to get a good score.... hmm getting a goodscore means I'm not using teamwork. This is getting ridiculous. No one here knows how to read and understand a point. If you're so damn worried about the pubs then get your ass on them once in a while, Fur. I've NEVER played with you, not even once. I'm far from a "rambo" calibre player, so you may like playing with me. I was on the server last night and thinking about this thread. I noticed that I was covering the guy's back who was moving ahead of me.... hmm never noticed that. Oh yeah and I hopped to his right crouched to lend fire support (so as not to block LOF like and idiot). I looked around and saw alot of people doing this, and I thought to myself, "I'll be damned I DO play with teamwork and so do half the people on here". Of course next was a map that was small and fast, and everyone just split and went for kills.

What's the point? Who knows... probably just that when you're playing with people you know, teamwork is second nature. When you're playing with strangers it's a diferent story. Teamwork or no, why the hell shouldn't I be able to evaluate my killscore for myself? The accuracy is good, but I'm not sure how the accuracy will be determined. I also like the primary weapon stat, but a individual kill score is not the death of teamwork. Some people just care how good they do.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 07:06 AM
but a individual kill score is not the death of teamwork. Some people just care how good they do.

As i've stated time and time again... IT IS. every single so-called team game, that incorported kills saw any form of teamwork collapse as soon a people started playing for the frags.

And where is the "ridiculousness" in my last post? Please point it out. It is no more ridiculous then your insistence that you need frags to have fun. Which is in turn what my "most shallow person of the year" award was based upon. If you only play a game for the frags that is exactly what you are.

And if you only play for the frags anyway then why not go play Tac-Ops or something and leave the team game to us team-players.

No one here knows how to read and understand a point

well at least you don't. My point is that frags reward the wrong kind of play. They reward people for going iout on their own to get the most points before the rest of the players "steal" them. THIS DOES NOT PROMOTE TEAMWORK, duh.

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 07:22 AM
You've touched me, fur. I'm so shallow. Could you show me what it's like to be a truly deep, sensitive man such as yourself. I know it's ok for a mean to be more than one-dimensional, but I need help, I just can't let go.

How I envy your ability to cut through the bull**** with that butterknife sharp wit. Your deepness astounds me, and all I can do is hope that these conversations will allow me to blossom in the ways of true INF philosophy.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 07:38 AM
So i guess you could not find any points to argue me on anymore and instead decided to just post drivvel?

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 07:43 AM
1 point 1 kill along with the accuracy and whatnot.

Fur it is not the death of teamwork if you think it is you should try to imagine that there are actually people that care to see their score but actually want to win the rounds as a prime objective. I'm tired of being lumped into an assumption that "ohh he wants his score, he must not give a rats arse about teamwork and he has to be a rambo". Thats not the way it is. There are people with varying degrees of thought on this subject. I know for a fact that everyone here plays with some degree of teamwork.

I play to see that my TEAM has won the appropriate number of rounds for victory. At the end of the game I want to see how much of an asset I was to the team. I want to know this for my own personal improvement. The fact that I want a score for my self does not negate me being a rambo not caring about teamwork.

Possibly, just possibly the team could change a few things, maybe only showing the score to the actual player. Not a score but a hash mark for a kill. Therefore players cant see other players score. Or possibly a tally only for the player in question at the finish of the game. Making all other scores invisible. There are MANY MANY different ways this could be done to allow just the player see how well they did for their own personal gratification and self improvement. This does not by any means kill all instances of teamwork as the Fur has claimed it does.

Or how about if a player has 70% accuracy take his kills, minus his tk's X 0.70% for an average performance rating visible to the current player. I want to set standards for myself and I want to adhere to these standards and strive to do better. This does not mean I am the DEATH of all teamwork.

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 07:52 AM
Actualy I do have some points, but I was tired of arguing with someone who didn't have more than a one line backup for his argument.

On your principle of players will NOT use teamplay because of the scoreboard frag count, and teamwork WILL happen with a change of the scoring method, I present this scenario. The NEW scoreboard reward people for proximity to kills. If the scoreboard can influence player behavior I'm going to have a bunch of do-nothings crowding me so their name will show a good team score. More than me, a player like Antag or Gnat will have EVERYONE who wants points providing cover for them since they avergage +2 frags per minute. This would be disasterous. It wouldn't be teamplay it would be a bunch of "shallow" people trying to call themselve team players by hindering my play. Of course I doubt the ability of a scoreboard to influence players, so this will probably not happen.

I still don't grasp your aversion to team play with recognition for the excelent players. This IS TDM. When you start seeing the servers switching to EAS there will be alot of change, because the object isn't to necessarily "kill 'em all", it will be to accomplish goals. In TDM it's "kill 'em all" and the guys on a team who do the actualy killing should get shown. If I was on your team and covered you the whole map but never got a kill, who cares? I didn't do crap for the team. If I took out some of your threats then I helped you, if not, I was just filler.

When I look over our results on matches, I watch the rounds, player movement, and player score (with a grain of salt--- SHOTTIE WHORES!!!). Generaly, the guys at the top of the scoring heap got more kills. They usualy are the ones that deserve the congrats, with a few exceptions (a sniper that forces the enemy INTO the assault team, the backup guy that keeps them from flanking the team, ect).

I'm wasting my time. You'll never get my point because you can't see past your nose, my friend. I see your point and just don't think your theory holds water, but we're all living our own lives, so why not have our own thoughts? I still think that you must suck completely and think that the guys who rack up points are pissing in your wading pool, but I've never played with you so I don't know. Bring it to me sometime in the public games, or hop on my team and show me what your idea of public teamplay is.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 08:17 AM
1 point 1 kill along with the accuracy and whatnot.

Fur it is not the death of teamwork if you think it is you should try to imagine that there are actually people that care to see their score but actually want to win the rounds as a prime objective.
And how many do you think they are? By your reasoning CS, Tac-Ops, Strike Force, Firearms , hell even SOF should be great team games. But as you can see it just doesn't work that way.

I'm tired of being lumped into an assumption that "ohh he wants his score, he must not give a rats arse about teamwork and he has to be a rambo".
Quite simply put that is what the majority are. I'm not saying you can't have your score i'm saying the score should not be based on kills. It should be based on team behaviour rather then kills. Quite simply because as stated before kills promote going off on your own and get as many befrore the others "steal" them. You are competing against your own "teammates" while in a team game yu should be competing against the other team instead.
A group of people cometing against another group together rather then a group of individuals competing against eachother with as a side goal competeing against the other group.

Thats not the way it is. There are people with varying degrees of thought on this subject. I know for a fact that everyone here plays with some degree of teamwork.
And that should be promoted, simply be scrapping the frags and basing score on a combination of other factors such as survival, accuracy, teamwork, rounds won, rounds lost etc.

I play to see that my TEAM has won the appropriate number of rounds for victory. At the end of the game I want to see how much of an asset I was to the team. I want to know this for my own personal improvement. The fact that I want a score for my self does not negate me being a rambo not caring about teamwork.
Ofcourse, everybody wants that, however as i can't stress enough in a team game this should be based on anything other then something which openly has you competing against your fellow "teammembers".

Possibly, just possibly the team could change a few things, maybe only showing the score to the actual player.
Doesn't work, CS tried that, so did firearms it worked in neither. The only way is to change the paremeters score is based on.

Not a score but a hash mark for a kill. Therefore players cant see other players score. Or possibly a tally only for the player in question at the finish of the game. Making all other scores invisible. There are MANY MANY different ways this could be done to allow just the player see how well they did for their own personal gratification and self improvement. This does not by any means kill all instances of teamwork as the Fur has claimed it does. See above and yes it does. see previous examples.


Or how about if a player has 70% accuracy take his kills, minus his tk's X 0.70% for an average performance rating visible to the current player. I want to set standards for myself and I want to adhere to these standards and strive to do better. This does not mean I am the DEATH of all teamwork.
I didn't say you where but kills should not be the basis of teamwork. There are many ways to determine who has been the biggest asset to the team besides frags.

IMO score should be based on mix of the various other parameters. So say ((teamwork+accuracy)/2xrounds won)-100 point per TK (note that teamwork and accuracy are in percentages so 100 points is not that hard to get your hands on.


To Chocola grande or whatever:

"."

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 08:35 AM
Fur I believe way back in another thread we all propsed great indepth score plans, I know I had one that looked really nice to myself. It actually did inlcude kills but with serious averages and other factors in place to give a bottom line performance all things included. This would be fine with me, I just dont like the fact that my kills dont affect any of it now. They should at least play a percential role in the overall score or performance rating.

robrob
17th Aug 2001, 08:37 AM
... but I have to take issue with some of the view of our Clan buds. (no Dank that is buds as in freinds ;) )

1st Again let me state - MUF,SOB,PHD (sorry if I left some servers out)are providing a service and dare I say is carrying the community with thier servers. I have run servers in the past and it is a hell of a lot of thankless work and expense.

Now to my point....

I think it is inapropriate for Clan members to justify not working as a team on pubs as "we need an outlet."

I truly believe this is a disservice to the non-clanners among us. If clan matches are taxing and your looking to rambo (which is understandable) I would like to suggest you do it someplace where that is the goal of the game. Again, we all are a little touchy right now so I will restate this so as not to be misinterpreted.

I am not trying to pick on Clan Members but I do think you guys could really help the community by coming to the pubs and working the team aspect. Many of you are correct in that most of us have never had the oppurtunity to work as a real team as we are not in clans. But as members of the community who do have experience would'nt it be great to see you guys come on and lead a team ? I would sure as hell follow.

As to the statement that it is impossible to have teamwork without VOIP. I both agree and disagree. Voip is great and easy and is by far the best way to communicate in game.

However, the speech binds can do wonders if folks praticed using them. I try to work the team angle in every game with the voice commands and it catches on.

Clan Call to arms

How about you guys try and help to initiate teamwork on the pubs ? Using the voice commands or typing when dead. Maybe a couple of clan guys on each side barking orders.

note: if Antag is leading your team dont walk in front of him. :D

I am not nieve enough to believe that this will solve everything but I do think you guys could help us turn the tide. I am also pretty sure this post wont help anything but I had to try.

The clans bring a lot to the table for INF, if you guys would be willing try to bring a little of your experience to the pubs I think it would go a long way.

um one last point which I hope does not become the focal point replies to this post. To suggest that we non clanners will cluster around one of the clan guys to get bonus points is simply insulting.:rolleyes: I do not rule out that I may have misinterpreted the intention of that comment but that is how it came across to me.

robrob

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 08:46 AM
GNAT, the problem is that it will become the pre-dominant factor in the end and that is what destroys teamwork.

As I said you should not be competing with your teammates you should be competing together against the other team. That is what a team game is about.

As i've said here are other ways of seeing who was how big of an asset to the team.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 09:04 AM
here is a quote from a thread way way way back over a score system. It just shows that kills can be incorporated into a score that is primarily teamplay based.

originally posted by myselfaside from all the arguing... Can everyone agree that we(the people that are actually contributing) are on the right track?
I think so...

Tk's in a seperate tally x 2
Kills in a background tally 1k = 1pt
*Round win scores in a background tally 3pts per each person of the team winning the round
Round live scores in a background tally 1pt staying alive
Last kill/end round win in a background tally 1pt for ending round

Add them all up and minus the tk's you have a good score.

Everyone that plays as a team will have a very close score, and their scores would far outweigh that of the loosing team. The scores will vary and be a good barameter of a players abilities and will also reflect a teams effectiveness. As you will see the winning team in a match averaging all within about a 10 point spread and the loosing team could be close to that if the match is close. The scores will be way off if the game was a shutout. This will make the loosing team not be able to have higher scores than the winning team which I see more than not on the public games.

Fur people will realize the only way to get their scores high is to PLAY AS A TEAM when you award round points last kill points and stay alive points. You have said over and over that having points will encourage non-team movement. Well read all that closely, believe me this will make players realize the people that have the high scores are the ones that are staying alive winning the rounds and killing people, not just running out and taking down as many people as they can. Anyone else agree with this???


lol funny Fur just shows up everywhere.

Robnob, I believe you may have taken some of the post a little too literally. When I play on pubs I do work a certain level of rambo into my game. But in each game I play in there is always at least 3-4 people along withmyself that are using voice commands. I find it very very usefull and effective in providing team back up when needed. I live on my speechbound commands and the games you hope for are alive and well everyday in the pubs. Playing as a rambo doesn't mean your not a team player by anymeans.

ie: A player in front of me goes a certain way, I run off a different route... Why did I not follow him? because I was flanking his enemy. I may be alone but I am none the less playing as a team.
Going in right after your team mate or 10m after only gets you killed if the enemy has a foothold there. But you can outsmart them and offer team backup in so many ways.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 09:25 AM
Fur, your name calling and condescending tone will never allow anyone to take you seriously.

Try being civilized for once.
Try going online for once.
Try to not tell everyone how to play a game.

This is a team game , yes but it is up to the individual as to how they want to play thie game.

I know when the one time you did come onto the MUF servers Fur you got whipped pretty hard. I am sure that stung a bit. Online play is much harder than offline bot play eh? I encourage you to come online and play with all of us. Perhaps your arguements of teamwork will have a little more experience behind them and you wont sound, well, like the Fur we all know. This is only meant to help you. Don't compare this game to CS or others either. We are only concerned with how this mod conitinues.

I also see Fur on other forums, you are just spouting off the same tired arguement of teamwork. Even when it is not in topic.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 09:38 AM
Meat Sac, sure whatever. I haven't played anything besides Warbirds for more then 5 minutes in the last several months. Quite simply because After those 5 minutes I get discusted seeing everybody run around on themselves.
Only inf i've played with any effort is the testing versions of 286.


Anyway GNAT. the problem is since Kills are the only things most n00bs recognise when they come to a game wether itb counts or not that is what they go for since that is what they know.

That is the same reason why for instance in The Opera you got guys running around with shotguns. Because you get a lot of kills. While in The opera getting kills is basically irrelevant the only way you are going to score well is by using style but since they see kills they don't care even if they end up on the bottom of the scoring list as long as they have the most kills.
This led to people abandoning style and simply going for kills (even though you can get up to 45 times the cash (which is what ranking in The Opera is based on) for a single kill if it's stylish).
So within a week or two you didn't see any rolls anymore no people wall jumping, sliding or any other cool moves. Just people running around with shotguns or dual desert eagles trying to get the most kills.

Another example of how kills ruined a good game.


The ONLY solution is to simply remove kills alltogether. This is the approach Hostile Intent (http://www.planethalflife.com/hostileintent) has taken because they agreed after all the previous examples that frags and teamwork simply do not go together.
Replace kills with something else that represents your value to the team and teamwork will stand a chance.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 09:43 AM
And meat sac i have teh same arguments simply because it is true. Could you please point me to a single game that has frags and at the same time has good teamwork on public servers?

guess what... there are none.

WizBiz
17th Aug 2001, 09:48 AM
Fur, I think you should go play that(hostile intent) if that is what you are looking for in a game. If not that, why not take a dive off the tallest builing in your neighborhood. Your attitude on these forums is a cancer and should be eliminated. Maybe the guys who play Hostile Intent will welcome you in open arms. I sure don't see that happening here.

Changing the scoring will never change the way people play the game, nor it should.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 09:55 AM
Wizbiz... prove me otherwise... show me that game that has teamplay on publics and frags. You can't so therefor i'm a cancer? great do they teach this fabulous form of logic to all the kids in your country?


oh and point out a single example where i did not state the simple truth on how frags affect players in any of my above points. Good luck, you'll need it.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 09:57 AM
Fur did you not see my post? or just not read it?

I counted 1pt = 1kill in my post as a background number. One that no one would see, not even yourself. It among other "Background" numebrs are combined and averaged something you could call a team based score. Where most of the points are handed down from working with teammates and winning rounds.

I was simply saying that the actual amount of kills should be incorporated "SOMEWHERE" in the formula for the final outcome. Understand this means not for some noob to gawk over his kills. It would be an average of effectiveness. In such a system that rewards winning rounds, and teamplay. The only way to make that average of effectiveness go up is to play like a team and win. Thus promoting teamplay.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 10:02 AM
GNAT, even as a "background score" they'll see frags=more points and the simple result will be yet again the playwers on each team competing against eachother for them.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 10:03 AM
Fur, you do have a lot of opinions on this mod and how it is a team game. The thing that gets under most peeps skins if you are telling this to a bunch of clan members. Clans know all about teamwork.

You are missing the point about individualism in general also. You simply cannot tell people how to play. Like it or not that is just the way it is.

Why does everyone ignore the positive posts here and focus on the negatives. Everyone here just loves to flame

Fur, you should try something. Setup a server, pay for a T3 line and start hosting INF. Then admin the servers and make everyone play all team based. Let me know how you do. Till then please continue to play for free on our servers (if you ever chose to go online again).

Meanwhile no one has acknowledged the clans that do put up the expense for t3 line, and multiple servers. Thank you MUF, Sob, PHD, and SK (and others). Thanks Warren and company for a free mod that everyone is so passionate about.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 10:10 AM
fur you offset those frags with team wins scores and end round win scores, stay alive scores, and even add some teamplay type if you shot someone within so many meters of one of your teammates. So that the final score of a teamplay based effective player can and usually will be higher scored in the end. Its really quite simple.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 10:20 AM
meat sac, please point out the "posive" effect frags have on teamwork and please do not place them in a utopic environment.

Oh and as for clan-members from the posts they made they basically proclaimed themselves the cause of the lack of teamwork on publics... so much for the holy clan-players.

GNAT, frags simply do not go togetherwith teamwork. As said in every one of my posts above no matter how much you will push them to the back. As i've said before, even with frags not being visible at all people still went for the frags. Even with ranking having nothing to do with frags people still went for the frags that leaves but one conclusion: If frags are in any way counted they will ruin the teamwork for us pubbies.


Now take a look why in clans actually exist. Because they want to be the best AS A TEAM. Individual frags mean nothing, all that counts is the teams result in the end. The most important player in a clan match is not nescessarilly the one with the most frags.
Effectively in clan matches frags do not exist. So that should be what publics are strifing for since this is after all a TEAM game.


Ok, i'm heading home i'll spank you all in a hour or two :).

WizBiz
17th Aug 2001, 10:23 AM
Fur, is your skull that fookin thick? What is the point of team death match?

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 10:24 AM
In that line of reasoning fur people are still going to go for frag without that number anywhere at all.

Based on the fact that if someone is totally controlling a match or pub game, everyone knows it. Believe me everyone knows it. Newbs will strive to be like that person and that person will get recognition from players complimenting that person on how well they are playing. Its obvious when someone is playing well and others are still going to be trying to do the same in publc games without a score. your point has been downgraded to moot.

robrob
17th Aug 2001, 10:36 AM
Well put and I do believe your sentiment is shared amoung most of your bretheren. In truth I may take things written here very literally as I think when we start inferring sentiment it gets messy.

Robnob, I believe you may have taken some of the post a little too literally. When I play on pubs I do work a certain level of rambo into my game. But in each game I play in there is always at least 3-4 people along withmyself that are using voice commands. I find it very very usefull and effective in providing team back up when needed. I live on my speechbound commands and the games you hope for are alive and well everyday in the pubs. Playing as a rambo doesn't mean your not a team player by anymeans.

Now as far as 'robNob" are you saying that i am a nob. Or a nob of Rob, or a N00B....oh wait there I go again. heheh :D

And finally, gather 'round everyone Group Hug !!!

.... squeeze tight yall.....thats better. click ...oh sh*t eddie just pulled the pin !!!! .....Incoming !!!!!

{PhD}D
17th Aug 2001, 10:38 AM
I hope that EAS is going to come out soon, becuase it seems like many of the enhancements don't compliment a team death match game.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 10:42 AM
ohh shiat, sorry robrob, hehehe I misread your name, sorry for the mispelling. Although I do have ammo now if you make me mad ;) robno... er robrob

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 11:31 AM
Fur you are missing the point of my post. Maybe you should reread the last two again and then form a cohesive thought rather than "whatever".

You gonna try and put up the cost of hosting a fast server with fast connection? Again you glossed over the points you can say nothing too, you do this everytime.

You are still talking about clans and teamwork. You still are not understanding the fact that in those venues of clan matches team play is crucial. Pubs are different because of the player mix. You cannot control individuals actions on the pubs. Again I CHALLENGE you to start your own server and see how you do. You keep championing the cause of teamwork from your computer chair with no action. You are the quintessential arm chair quarterback.

You are gonna spank us online? Uh, the one time I saw you proved you are more mouth than muscle. Here is a hint for you, your not good at all. Maybe that is why you are so vocal on the forum front.

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 11:37 AM
Right on the head of the nail, D.

And, rob, I don't think anyone here says that we don't like teamplay on pubs. It was stated that we don't play AS tight as we do in the matches. Pub games are unscheduled, unplanned, and the lineups change while you're playing. I like to think I support my team while playing on pubs.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding everyone. When I hear teamplay, I think of matches. Maybe our definitions of teamplay aren't the same. Sure I like to measure my kill count against my buddies. We also measure PC's, Inet connections, cars, and whatever else we can brag to each other about. When on the same team I might get the rare chance to beat GNAT's score online and rub his face in it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to shoot him to stop him from taking my kill. If someone on my team says "run with me", "I got your back" , or whatever I try to hold up my part.

Jesus, it seems like I've said this 10 times now, but the clans (including MUF) DO support teamplay on pubs. I just said I like to see a personal score based on how many of the dead I laid down in a TEAM DEATHMATCH, where the only object is to kill everyone on the other team. The base mark of DEATHMATCH performance is frags. Like D just aluded to, EAS will change that. In EAS (from what I understand) there will be objective to hold, attain, or destroy. In that case frags would not be important in deciding how much of an asset you are to the team as the primary rating factor.

vedder
17th Aug 2001, 11:49 AM
Well i just read the whole thread over again. And I'm done. I officially am stopping my input in this thread, cause you are twisting(or maybe just misinterpreting) my points. Whatever, there are better things to do than "argue" my thoughts in this thread. BTW, I think it is absurd that my opinion on how a videogame should be is dismissed simply becuase I'm 16. I'm not arguing economics here like some other 17 year old *cough* *cough* I pity you if you automatically dismiss anyone opinion who happens to be younger than you. IGNORANCE is rampant in this thread.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 12:02 PM
EV, your opinion is not discounted because of your age. You simply refered to people to not being mature. The fact that your 16 does not help you when you are talking about maturity or experience. The only people who even use the word mature are usually teenagers.

I do agree with you how EVERY forum here is all a shouting match and no one ever agrees. It really is too bad that no one gets along here. That is why I spend my time playing online rather than racking up post counts here.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 12:07 PM
You are still talking about clans and teamwork. You still are not understanding the fact that in those venues of clan matches team play is crucial.

Maybe you are missing my point. but since this is a TEAM game it is exactly what public games should be like. TEAMwork should be the 1st goal everything else is secondary.
Pubs are different because of the player mix. You cannot control individuals actions on the pubs.
I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team.

Again I CHALLENGE you to start your own server and see how you do. You keep championing the cause of teamwork from your computer chair with no action. You are the quintessential arm chair quarterback.
Hoe does me running or not running a server in/validate my opinion? please elaborate. Just because you run a server does not mean you have more say in the development of this game.
In fact if were going that way I'd outweigh you since I beta test this game, now i'm not using that to in-validate your points now am i? No I gave example after example of games where counting frags killed the teamwork on-line. And you so far have not come up with even one point where counting frags has improved teamwork. In fact you have not come up with any positive points frags have besides the fact that you like them.

ou are gonna spank us online? Uh, the one time I saw you proved you are more mouth than muscle. Here is a hint for you, your not good at all. Maybe that is why you are so vocal on the forum front.
Where did i say any such thing? all I said was I'll spank you later which.... is what i'm doing ATM.
Oh and you saw me wow... one whopping time? Maybe if you ask some of the peeps that were here longer then the preverbial minute you have been here you'll get to hear that i was quite good. In fact I only played with the m9 since it was the only way i got a challenge. I simply stopped playing after the novelty wore off and things degraded into simple run around and shoot people like so many other games before.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding everyone. When I hear teamplay, I think of matches. Maybe our definitions of teamplay aren't the same.
My definition of teamplay is one team agaisnt another. That means that the current one group of players against eachother and another group of players falls outside that. Since as I pointed out the players are competing more against eachother then against the other team.

Sure I like to measure my kill count against my buddies. We also measure PC's, Inet connections, cars, and whatever else we can brag to each other about. When on the same team I might get the rare chance to beat GNAT's score online and rub his face in it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to shoot him to stop him from taking my kill. If someone on my team says "run with me", "I got your back" , or whatever I try to hold up my part.
Maybe you do but look st the vast majority of other players... i'd say about 1 pct of them plays even remotely for the team the rest plays either for their CLQ score, their net-stats rating or simply their frag count.

SoSilencer
17th Aug 2001, 12:25 PM
Although I only read the first and last page of this thread there seems to be a common theme so I'm going to reply. Sorry for flaming you all, but you all deserve it.

All you people saying that there can't be teamwork on public servers are morons. That is complete BULL****. Since when did you need to know your teammates to work with them at a common goal? I can go outside right now and find some COMPLETE STRANGERS playing football or soccer out in a field. Are you telling me we can't use teamwork because we've never met?

We all know the rules of the game and even though we all have our own unique style the COMMON GOAL OF THE TEAM never changes, or did you forget that this was a TEAM game with TEAM BASED GOALS? Just because the individual situations and teamates may change doesn't mean we can't use teamwork it simply means you must learn to ADAPT to the situation at hand.

Why are you afraid of people trying teamwork on public servers? What could you possibly have to lose from more teamwork? Wait, I get it, maybe you all SUCK and you can't adapt. I think that sounds pretty reasonable. You all suck and are afraid that if more teamwork appears you'll be forced to THINK AND ADAPT and you can't just mindlessly run around like rambo and get lots of frags.

Well SORRY but that's not what the game is about. I don't care if you're tired from all your clan matches and want to unwind, how DARE you do it at the expense of teamwork for everyone else. You think that using teamwork in a clan match makes you excempt from having to support the team in public matches? The only reason half of you use your sorry excuse for teamwork is because it helps inflate your frag count.

There is NO valid reason why teamwork cannot work in public matches except that YOU aren't willing to try it because you are too lazy and self centered to give a crap about anything but your own score. After reading what little of this thread I have I wouldn't complain if they COMPLETELY removed ALL indivudual statistics and left us with 2 numbers, the red teams score and the blue teams score. You people preach about teamwork not working in public games and you don't even know what it is. No wonder it hasn't been difficult to stop playing until 2.86, you people make me sick.

GHOST_Graphite
17th Aug 2001, 12:42 PM
the_fur:

It's funny how you keep stretching out your opinion. You are obviously having a hard time convincing a lot of people. It's not very probable that these 10 or so people are dumn now is it? Something is lacking on your behalf, either your communication skills, or the point your trying to get across.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 12:43 PM
Sosilencer,

ok dumbarse now go read the whole thread and realize your talking about some fictional character that plays another game.

how dare I? how about Biteme dipshiat i pay for the server, how DARE you tell me how to play on my own machine and on my own servers. You have no grounds to stand on there. Go play somewhere else pansy.

You go read the thread some more chiko. If you read on through the thread SS you will see me explain how I play. I use my voice commands during public games, and I flank my enemy in hopes to gangbang them from both sides. That is teamwork SS whether you like it or not. I may look like a rambo but yes we all do have the same goal. If you had bothered reading more you would have also found out that I value my team winning the rounds more so than I value my score. Further along in the thread SS I was discussing possible non kill based scores for encouraging teamplay.... ohh but wait, nm, you didn't bother to read all the post before making your un-informed post. Like when someone comes in the room half way through a movie and they say "whats going on?" if the movie is good you say "shhhh" which is exactly what you should do unless you know what your talking about. Go read the thread and well then make up your mind.

In all truthfullness I do believe we were making progress or at least I was with posting alternatives and other ideas which is a whole lot better for the common "TEAM" than this post or your post for which this one was created. You want teamplay how about trying a little fookin teamplay in your god loveth holiest of forums.


Ohh and FUR you miss this post earlier?

In that line of reasoning fur people are still going to go for frag without that number anywhere at all.

Based on the fact that if someone is totally controlling a match or pub game, everyone knows it. Believe me everyone knows it. Newbs will strive to be like that person and that person will get recognition from players complimenting that person on how well they are playing. Its obvious when someone is playing well and others are still going to be trying to do the same in publc games without a score. your point has been downgraded to moot.



"never underestimate the predictability of stupidity"

LoTekK
17th Aug 2001, 12:49 PM
True that last post by Fur was ridiculous.
please, cholo, don't take my comment and take it out of context... i meant exactly what i said when i said "this thread is just ridiculous right now"... ie, the entire thread... i have no sides to take, nor do i want any... this thread has gone from bad to worse in the short space of 2 days... just let sleeping dogs lie... someone's gonna have to back down, like a man, if you must, or this argument is never going to end... warren's already stepped in and told all involved to move this argument to OT, so can we please respect the man's wishes? either move it to OT, or just let it die, and like i've said in a number of recent release-related threads, let's wait to see things firsthand before we start bashing things that may not be broke... now can everybody just shake hands and let things be? we're all gonna have our differences, whether minor or major, but this thread and its argument serves nobody... please, let's all just move on...

peace

{PhD}Teutonic
17th Aug 2001, 12:51 PM
GNAT,

I took care of SS many monthes ago. I put him on my ignore list... lol

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 01:02 PM
Ohh and FUR you miss this post earlier?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In that line of reasoning fur people are still going to go for frag without that number anywhere at all.

Based on the fact that if someone is totally controlling a match or pub game, everyone knows it. Believe me everyone knows it. Newbs will strive to be like that person and that person will get recognition from players complimenting that person on how well they are playing. Its obvious when someone is playing well and others are still going to be trying to do the same in publc games without a score. your point has been downgraded to moot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry but how can people go for frags if they are not counted at all? In CS they were counted, just not visible and it was all fine untill people found out theclq was counting their frags.... flush went the toilet and down it went teamwork.

You can only "totally" controll a game if the other team is ****ing up. No single player can controll a game entirely when a team is working even remotely as a team. Especially not in 286 the movement system simply doesn't allow for that. However most frag horny peopel don't care, they shoot two people and die and that is plenty for them since their fragcount goes up.

Now i'm sorry but could you point me to the army that teaches it's soldioers to run around alone, shoot one or two people and die?

Such behaviour is caused by but one thing. Fragcounts. If Frags are not counted something like this will not be encouraged as it is now. And we're more likely to see not only teamwork but also realistic teamwork. Which is what INF is about (go read the INF manual).

{PhD}Teutonic
17th Aug 2001, 01:33 PM
Fur,

If we shouldn't count kills/frags, then why give players bonus points for kill/frags within a certain range? Make some sense...

WizBiz
17th Aug 2001, 01:38 PM
Fur, this is from the manual:

We give you the tools to do the job. How you do it is up to you.

No mater how many posts you put in this forum, one thing remains clear. You will never be able to dictate how much teamwork someone on a pub plays with a scoring system or lack there of. Until people want to devote their free time to play as a team, it won't happen.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 01:41 PM
Tuetonic? Where did I propose that? I want frags to be completely removed I've always wanted this.

WizBiz, I know that and i've stated several times before that whiule you can't dictate anything you can at least discourage and encourage certain types of behaviour. Read my last few posts kthx.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 01:43 PM
You can only "totally" controll a game if the other team is ****ing up. No single player can controll a game entirely when a team is working even remotely as a team.

Not true I do it all the time, makes it a little more fun too. I usually run up on a group of people all holding some area "as a team" and whipe them out. Ohh yea and I live, I dont run in get two kills and die, I finish the rounds.

Such behaviour is caused by but one thing. Fragcounts. If Frags are not counted something like this will not be encouraged as it is now.


Fur the people that are chasing their scores now will still be chasing the domination feel that occurs when you run over everyone on the other team. I dont care if the scoring system puts them dead on the bottom of the list, people are still going to try and control the gameplay with their talents. AS I said in my last post fur, you can tell when someone is kicking ass and newbs will always try to be like that person whether you like it or not.

I haven't said I dont play with team oriented goals. I rely heavily on voice commands and knowing where my teammates are. I hook up with other players and work the map. That being said I must disagree while you try to promote more teamplay you will still have people playing the way they want to with or without scores.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 02:01 PM
*sigh*

As i've said in the last... what.... 5 posts? While you can't controll peoples behaviour you can at least steer them in the right direction. Also as i've said in my last post... you can forget about "dominating" the other team if they in fact play as a team in 286 simply because you will no longer be able to rely on fast reactions and strafing to kill them. The movement and aiming will not allow for that to happen.

-GAT-Rogue
17th Aug 2001, 02:07 PM
i got halfway down page 5 and had to stop reading again...:(
this forum is all about personal attacks now, when no one even knows each other or their personalities.
and people are like, you're personal attacks wont let u to be taken seriously blah blah, then they go and say, jump off a building, or im older, thus more mature than you. stop being hypocrites. maybe you should all practice what you preach.
you all need to shut the hell up.:mad:

Cpt.Cypher
17th Aug 2001, 02:11 PM
If you ask me (which none of you did :D ) then I think you guys are sort of looking in the wrong place. Teamwork is not dictated by the scoreboard and how people get points. Its in two other places - the scoreboard just helps.

These two places are : game speed/style and player mentality.

I know you have been touching on player mentality a bit. And I do agree with alot of things said here. But despite people wanting to hve fun pubs will never have teamwork unless people try. Simple as that. If people tried then there would be teamwork. It happens alot with me personally. I find another player that seems to be using something other than rushing tactics (which I will cover down below) and I follow him. If he notices me then we will team up, if he doesn't then I will look for another partner. Also seeing other players holding strategic spots (such as the one door room in Sicily) and joining them is a good idea. But sadly as GNAT put it, rushing can break even the best of defences. Especially if they have superior strafing skills, brining me to my next point.

Rushing and there mentality. I will have to be careful here as I don't want to start a flame war. Rushing is what makes teamwork void. Yes you can team up with another player and rush, but its not entirely needed. One player can rush in and take out 2-3 guys with a shotgun on semi. Its a simple and widely known fact. Thats why shotgun or MP5 rushers are at the top every time. Now is rushing in the context of realism? Yes and no. But for the most part no. Rushing in most levels should get you killed, but sadly Inf in its current build rewards rushers. And getting back to the point, rushing does not help the team mentality at all. Rushing means you leave your team behind and run out and kills as many before being killed yourself - if you can find the realism in that, please explain it to me. But sadly most people don't care about anyone else in todays world and simply care about themselves and some points they get in a game. Instead they could care about making the game fun for everyone - but thats not going to happen, I can simply encourage it.

Those two points right there are the problems with todays Inf. 2.86 should hopefully give the rushers some trouble and make them think a little more. And as such hopefully players will rely more on their partner to survive - just like it should be IMO.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 02:11 PM
sigh is what I'm saying... tired of arguing with your one sided views. Sorry you can't entertain a rational thought that is out of line with your own. You as well as many others should try to be more open minded. People will still run and gun in 2.86 wait and see. I guess thats the only thing that will make you understand it. I've tried discussing it, and believe me I understand you wanting to take the importance away from the frag, but now we are on to whether or not people will still run and gun in 2.86 and they will. The only sure way to get a true rock solid team game like that of a clan match is to schedule it with people that are all willing to attend. As I have said time and time again, you will get a certain level of teamplay on the pubs, but nothing at ALL in comparison to a clan match. So get some of your friends together and go play online as a team and have fun. But if you dont set it up with people willing to cooperate ahead of time you will have a hard time getting most of the team to play completely together. Like I said run and gun rambos will still be around.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 02:36 PM
Fur, I am thinking the fact you are on the beta team is a BIG problem. A single closed minded extremist should not have such a loud voice. You are trying to force everyone to play a certain way whether you can comprehend your own thoughts or not. Trying to get people to play as a team can never be inforced.

You have not given a strong arguement on any topic yet. Your suggestion that beta is more importand that running servers for EVERYONE (including you) is ridiculous and selfish. You clearly have an agenda with this mod and it is obvious you are in the minority. Sorry to state the obvious but I feel you need the help.

My interaction with you leaves me incredibly unimpressed. No wonder your are attacked everytime you post. You are also proving to not have the level of comprehension to understand all points discussed. You go off on tangents and send everyone spinning.

I did see you online ONCE. And if that is any indication of your ability then I am correct in assuming you are not good at this game and thus are so defensive (I.e. see your naseau inducing post count).

If you think you can discuss any topic like a clear minded lucid individual then I will welcome it, but so far you are not capable of such. So I will cease any further pointless arguing with you. You simply just don't get it.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 02:47 PM
Fur, I am thinking the fact you are on the beta team is a BIG problem. A single closed minded extremist should not have such a loud voice. You are trying to force everyone to play a certain way whether you can comprehend your own thoughts or not. Trying to get people to play as a team can never be inforced.
I mean wtf? have you been reading my last posts? The last 6 posts or so have said the same thing over and obver. I AM NOT TRYOING TO FORCE ANYBODY TO DO ANYTHING, I AM ONLY TRYING TO STEER THEM IN THE RIGHT WAY. I mean christ i've said this in almost these exact words in the last several posts.
What don't you understand?

You have not given a strong arguement on any topic yet. Your suggestion that beta is more importand that running servers for EVERYONE (including you) is ridiculous and selfish.
Again... WTF?!?!?!?! I said EXACTLY the oposite. You come here and say that simply because I don't run a server my attempts to change this into a team game are irrelevant? I replied by saying that if that was your way of think8ing then I should think that I am more important because I am a beta tester... which I don't. READ IT BACK IT SAYS THIS LITERALY!!!!!!!!!!!

You clearly have an agenda with this mod and it is obvious you are in the minority. Sorry to state the obvious but I feel you need the help.
Guess what my "agenda" is, to make this the number one TEAM-modeification for Unreal Tournament... OH NO... THE SHAME!!!!!!!

My interaction with you leaves me incredibly unimpressed. No wonder your are attacked everytime you post. You are also proving to not have the level of comprehension to understand all points discussed. You go off on tangents and send everyone spinning. Point out any such instances please? I have posted many many many examples supporting my idea thet frags ruin teamwork. And since INFILTRATION is a team-game that should be the main modde of play so frags will have to go. Here i'll put it in a simple sum:

-Frags ruin teamwork (as pointed out in my many empyrical examples)
-Infiltration is a team game
-since frags and teamwork do not go together (as proven by examples) neither do frags and INF.


I did see you online ONCE. And if that is any indication of your ability then I am correct in assuming you are not good at this game and thus are so defensive (I.e. see your naseau inducing post count).And I said it was not, in fact I pointed out that I haven't played inf seriously since several weeks after 2.85 has been released whgich was what... several moths ago.

If you think you can discuss any topic like a clear minded lucid individual then I will welcome it, but so far you are not capable of such. So I will cease any further pointless arguing with you. You simply just don't get it.
Same to you as per every point put in this post above. You have misread, misinterpreted or simply willfully twisted every point i have made so far. See the first few quotes and responses.
I have LITTERALLY said the exact opoiste of what you say I posted.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 02:49 PM
GNAT running and gunning will not be possible in 286 just trust me... all you'll be hitting are the ground and the sky.

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 02:53 PM
ok i quit the fur is a waste of time and effort not to mention a fooked individual.

Stick that in your quote and post it!

WizBiz
17th Aug 2001, 02:54 PM
The FFur, how does one who hasn't played seriously since the early days of 2.85 become a beta tester?

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 03:05 PM
I am committed to this game becoming the number one game for UT. I am committed to realism and I am committed to teamwork.
All of these coincide with what inf is all about.
These are my personal goals and I will strive for them.
I have experience in trouble shooting trough my work and trough my hobbies.
Why me and not somebody else? who knows, who cares. As long as the bugs are found and the game comes a step closer to being the perfect team-based combat simulator.


I do not play the game a lot simply because I do not like the playing style currently, which is why the servers are so empty a lot of people feel the same way.

Murphy
17th Aug 2001, 03:30 PM
Wizbiz spake:
The FFur, how does one who hasn't played seriously since the early days of 2.85 become a beta tester?

It might be more illuminating to find out when The_Fur became a beta tester for INF.

The_Fur said:
GNAT running and gunning will not be possible in 286 just trust me... all you'll be hitting are the ground and the sky.
Well, when I was playing regularly, I played often on the MUF servers. If there is a way to make it work, GNAT will excell at it. He's death on wheels on the MUF Superserver.

Personally, I hope that The_Fur is right about the accuracy while in a sprint. I have a feeling if he is, that there will be a spate of all snipers in game, with their scoped rifles waiting for someone to try the running and gunning approaches. Now, giant sniper wars are entertaining for me, but they do tend to make for very slow (and exciting) rounds. I think that there's room for a rush in this game, it's just that with the stamina and speeds available to us, rushing was a constant mode of action for many players.

But what about teamplay and proximity? I can only guess that the INF team was going for teams sticking together, covering one another as they sprint from cover to cover, and trying to generate many lanes of overlapping fire. Sounds like sound teamwork... but there are snipers and scouts and others who don't "count" in the score sense of it. I agree with Cholo's very original point to this thread: proximity does not necessarily mean teamwork, and vice versa.

Cholo Grande
17th Aug 2001, 03:30 PM
Yawn I retire from the thread. My points have been made and it is simple. People want to know their frag counts. And the point that started the WHOLE thing is still true. The proximity "teamwork" system blows.

I'm not going to stop playing the game. Trying to engineer a game, that you say you want to be realistic, to be unrealistic so as to not favor "unskilled" rushers is silly. Saying that real soldiers don't rush is true, but real soldiers don't get to spawn several more times either. Real soldiers are not usualy in a scenario where everyone walks around a 500yd area untill everyone is dead. The game is a realism mod, but it's still a game. Sacrificing fun and gameplay for realism will destroy the mod or at least leave you with 4 servers to play on and maybe 50 people that want to play on them.

And to close. I read that while I run my gun will be going from sky to ground... hmmm if that's the case you probably won't see me around much. That's unrealistic and silly. If you get killed by someone who runs up and sprays you with some m16 fire, ducks for cover, realoads, and scraps the rest of your backup within 10 meters, it's not their gameplay that is wrong. It's your ability.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 03:39 PM
Chocolo, you have to understand that INF is a realism mod and not a "realism" mod like so many before it.
As I've said realism makes it's own fun, it is completely different from the normal "realism" games since it would be more slower and rely more on player interaction and thinking rather then fast reflexes and continously hitting the jump button like most other "realism" mods.
Like a game of soccer, per SoSilencers example, it is the teamwork that makes the game fun, not kicking the ball in the goal.

And to close. I read that while I run my gun will be going from sky to ground... hmmm if that's the case you probably won't see me around much. That's unrealistic and silly.
I didn't say that, i said you wouldn't hit more then those two. There is a reason why people don't fire on the move besides in the movies. Watch any actual combat footage and you will see that the ones firing are the ones sitting/ crouching/ lying and they swap places with their mates who then open fire.

If you get killed by someone who runs up and sprays you with some m16 fire, ducks for cover, realoads, and scraps the rest of your backup within 10 meters, it's not their gameplay that is wrong. It's your ability.
True. And this is not a problem since this is very unlikely to happen with a system that favours cover more then speed. Which is ATM not what inf is, but which is what inf will be.

BrownBeaver
17th Aug 2001, 03:39 PM
Just goes to show you can't argue with a communist.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 03:40 PM
A bit late Beaver, quite sad that you registered just to make a snyde remark.

BrownBeaver
17th Aug 2001, 03:55 PM
Well I got off on it. After all it is all about me anyway!

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 03:57 PM
"."

funkstylz
17th Aug 2001, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by BrownBeaver
Well I got off on it. After all it is all about me anyway!

I know I shouldn't encourage this sort of behaivour, but that was funny.

Shag
17th Aug 2001, 05:22 PM
Why not make frag counts a server option? Let people decide for themselves.

GHOST_Graphite
17th Aug 2001, 05:31 PM
Totally agree Shag.

Cpt.Cypher
17th Aug 2001, 05:40 PM
****, thats a great idea Shag. I totally agree. That way people from both schools of thought can be happy.

No frags for the Tacticians

Frags for the Rusherians

:lol:

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 05:52 PM
That will mean that eventually they will spill over to the Team-play servers and ruin those as well. Simply because they are the masses.

Anyway I can't restate this enough. INF is a TEAMgame, so it should be about teamwork. You won't get that by making it optional.

-GAT-Apoculos
17th Aug 2001, 06:09 PM
If Infiltration becomes "immpossible" to run and gun in then I believe alot of people will leave. I for one love to run and gun. I hope INF 286 doesnt totally ruin rushing tactics, but if it does it better still have a high fun factor. I dunno I wont comment on how anything is or should be untl I play the game.

Cpt.Cypher
17th Aug 2001, 06:11 PM
Well I agree with Apoc in saying that there should be some run and gun. But in its current state its not realistic. Inertia should aleviate that though. But I guess we will all see.

Amnesiac
17th Aug 2001, 06:31 PM
(pardon my ignorance, but I just started reading this thread today, and I was going cross-eyed by the 4th page:con:, so if I missed something completely let me know.)

For the most part, this thread seems to be largely redundant. Because both sides of the arguement are completely correct. I side with Fur for a lot of this. Because it is true, and in fact has been shown in multiple examples that scoring based on fragging leads to people just fragging. Looking at almost any other mod, and even INF currently will tell you this. If we simply ignore what happens when you institute such a scoring system then even INF will eventually fade into the ranks of all others.

That said, the objective of a scoreboard itself is to MEASURE the performance of a player, not dictate HOW they play. Thus theoretically speaking, measuring by frags would be the best suiting scoreboard, because really - thats the objective of the match. However, what works in theory, is not necisarily what works in life, and such is this case.

Changing the scoreboard will never force people to work as a team. However, reducing the benifits of being a "rambo" will at least get the process started. This is exactly what the scoreboard adjustment is trying to do. It is not meant to force you to play as a team, but to motivate you to do so.

I don't quite agree with this particular approach myself. Because as I said before, scoreboards are supposed to measure your performance, not force you to perform in a certain manner. In my personal opinion, the scoreboard itself will in the end have absolutly nothing to do with whether or not people work as a team. The evolution of the mods realism is what will eventually provoke such teamwork.

I do not believe that 2.86 will end all individual play. As long as players still have the capabilities to survive alone, they will continue to do so. If in real life, it was possible for someone to go running through a battlefield and killing people as they went - without dieing, you can be sure people would do it. This is the problem.

Infiltration will have to evolve into a team game. 2.86 is the first big step as far as I'm concerned. With the introduction of player inertia I believe that individual efforts will become much less rewarding. Depending on how intense it is, this will increase team work accordingly.

After inertia, the last step to a team game will be the EAS system. In my opinion, the scoreboard should have stayed the same until both of these features are introduced because once they are, the game will be completely different. The scoreboard will have to be redisigned again to reflect the new ways of contributing to team work.

For those of you who just skimmed this, my main point is simple - the scoreboard is an insubstantial thing. It is the game that counts, and until the game changes to reflect team play, changing the scoreboard will not have much, if any, effect.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by The_Fur
That will mean that eventually they will spill over to the Team-play servers and ruin those as well. Simply because they are the masses.

Anyway I can't restate this enough. INF is a TEAMgame, so it should be about teamwork. You won't get that by making it optional.

Fur, proving my point about forcing a certain gaming style. If the masses want it, who are you (one extremist) to tell everyone how to play?

And your last attempt at responding to my post was futile at best. I do not NORMALLY take the time to go back and hit the little quote button or read more posts you direct to others. I was responding things directed at me. I don't feel the need to repost your nonsensical dribble anyway. You are simply the most thick headed individual I have ever had the displeasure of conversing with. I say bring it to the servers! and put your money where your foot, err mouth is.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 07:02 PM
Quite simple really. If I and my x-com buddies would go into WWIIOL and started demanding UFO's should we get it just because we are with more people? Uhm I don't think so since that is not in line with the games goals.

Now Infiltration is a REALISTIC TEAMGAME That means that as much as possible should be done to make it REALISTIC and increase TEAMWORK.
The fact that there are more of you people has absolutely no bearing on this. per my last example.


Now anything else in my last post directed at you, you can swear all you want the point remains that you have not posted a single truth there. I have refuted everything you said simply by pointing to other posts by me which clearly stated the oposite of what you claimed I said.

You may use this shoehorn to get your foot out of your mouth.

Wetwire
17th Aug 2001, 07:44 PM
.... squeeze tight yall.....thats better. click ...oh sh*t eddie just pulled the pin !!!! .....Incoming !!!!! [/B]

LOL.. That is funny.

Very short version of my story: A direct snip from my company website. I posted this story on 7/27/01. Please read it ALL.

"The need to be part of something is what compels most people to join teams, clans, clubs or whatever organization they join. This is not always the case though. I have been a MP online gaming junky for a number of years now and have never felt so compelled. I have for the most part of my gaming career been the solo player. The fact that I decided to rejoin one of the best, and most fun clans in MP gaming history is simple. FUN. The fellas in GHOST clan are some of the best and brightest of the bunch, but the key factor is they still know how to have fun. And that is why this gamer plays. ;) BTW - The # 1 description for the word game in the dictionary is - An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime: party games; word games.
Way back when in 1998 GHOST_WizBiz and myself started something that we never dreamt would have become what it is today. That one Sunday evening sitting on the porch swing sippin' on a cold one and reading about R6 in the latest issue of PC Gamer was prelude to years of unbridled killing an mayhem to come. There is not much way to foresee what the future will hold for the GHOST clan, but whatever does happen, this proud member knows that right smack dab in the middle, their will be some "FUN"! That one single element should be enough to keep GHOST alive for many more years to come."

If you would like to check the date for yourself its http://www.betom.com/gaming.html

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 08:22 PM
Just goes to show, you can't argue with a communist.

Well I got off on it. After all it is all about me anyway!


That is the best/funniest **** I have heard throughout this thread! thanks for the laff you self indulgent pig BB! LMAO

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 08:23 PM
Haha, Fur your reasoning simply makes me laugh. Infantile mentality is what I would describe you as. You can make up any bullsh*t reasoning you have to justify your closed-mindedness. You do not control how this mod is played and never will. Chew on that for a while when you are playing with your bots offline.

The rest of us will continue to play this mod the way we see fit no matter how much you post.

For the record you have not disproven any comments I have stated. You are the one who continues to taste feet.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by somebody who can't read.
You do not control how this mod is played and never will.

Originally posted by me
I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team.
As i've said in the last... what.... 5 posts? While you can't controll peoples behaviour you can at least steer them in the right direction.
I mean wtf? have you been reading my last posts? The last 6 posts or so have said the same thing over and obver. I AM NOT TRYOING TO FORCE ANYBODY TO DO ANYTHING, I AM ONLY TRYING TO STEER THEM IN THE RIGHT WAY.


And could you please point me to ANY of your posts where you tried supporting your opinion with any factual data?

saying j00 s00 st00pid does not count as factual data

Amnesiac
17th Aug 2001, 08:52 PM
Haha, Fur your reasoning simply makes me laugh. Infantile mentality is what I would describe you as. You can make up any bullsh*t reasoning you have to justify your closed-mindedness. You do not control how this mod is played and never will. Chew on that for a while when you are playing with your bots offline.


Meat sack, don't be a bigot. If you are going to post here, keep the personal attacks to yourself. I don't care if you weren't the one to start the whole thing, it is not very classy to continue it.


The rest of us will continue to play this mod the way we see fit no matter how much you post.


That may be your opinion, but I will respect others opinions and ideas. If someone has a post about a gaming mentality that is resonable and logical I will abide by the same unwritten rules.

I normally try to keep quite about this sort of thing because usually it dies down eventually, but this post, and many others in this thread have taken it too far.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 08:56 PM
Fur, you make my arguement for me everytime you open your mouth.

"I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team." Fur

Again Fur your definition of "proper" play should not be railroaded down the throats of others. Like you love to do.

Amnesiac, everything everyone post is their opinion.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 09:03 PM
My post count is getting embarrassinly high, almost 30 so I will not post anymore. I would hate to rack up a count of 3000+ like some people. That is too much opinion ramming for anyone person. Cya online for a fun game of TDM. Come join the fun Fur.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 09:10 PM
wow, your debating skills are truly quite.... "special".

Amnesiac
17th Aug 2001, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Meat Sac

Amnesiac, everything everyone post is their opinion.


No argument here, that was a very logical thing to say, so I am hoping your other post/s were the result of your temper getting the best of you. However, it still remains that some opinions are best kept to yourself.:)

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 09:23 PM
:)

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 09:35 PM
Ok, this is totally sad, not only have you failed to put up any arguement other then "joo soo stupid" in it's various forms you also ent back and edited a post to make yoiurself look like less of a moron (failed miserably i might add).

I give you a final
"."

and this will be the end of it.

Meat Sac
17th Aug 2001, 09:38 PM
your opinion is yours Fur and means nothing to me. I won't lose any sleep knowing you don't like or agree with me.

Wetwire
17th Aug 2001, 09:54 PM
and that ENDS the chapter in this great story of love, hate, and INF!

WOOHOO last post

GNAT
17th Aug 2001, 10:34 PM
HAHA the Fur has once again trounced the forums proving he is the number #1 INF forum KNOB! great job everyone for bringing out the furs best circle talk.

robrob
17th Aug 2001, 10:57 PM
as long as that's not robknob :D !!

for those of you scratching your heads, that joke comes from about 5(gawd) pages in.

Cpt.Cypher
17th Aug 2001, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Meat Sac
Fur, you make my arguement for me everytime you open your mouth.

"I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team." Fur

Again Fur your definition of "proper" play should not be railroaded down the throats of others. Like you love to do.



How has he railroaded anything down anyones throat with that statement? Last time I checked encouraging someone was not forcing them to do anything. Its simply suggestion a coarse of action. Do not twist or add to what people say.

The_Fur
17th Aug 2001, 11:58 PM
Forget it, he doesn't understand.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 12:04 AM
Nor do you Fur.

This whole topic has Fur's statements in it telling people what he feels the mod should be and how is should be played (he has a right to his opinion, just don't force it on anyone). He has a closed minded approach. Anyone who offers an opposite view is treated with little respect or with a condescending tone. Fur is not better than anyone in any matter and shouldn't act as such.

I do apologize for me being brought down to an uncivilized conversation level.. I started off with diplomatic statements but was prodded by Fur into a pissing match. That is not who I am, nor will I continue in that vain.

My final thoughts regarding this matter.

I totally disagree with Fur's opinions as to what level team play actually exist with this mod. My take is pubs will be the same and clan matches will always be based on tactics and team play. Agree or disagree, no matter. I will not suggest or force anyone to play in a particular manner on the pubs. That is our right as server admins. EAS may change the dynamics of this mod, we will have to wait and see. TDM will always be about frag count on the pubs. Not in clan matches, true that is all about final score as it should be.

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by The_Fur
Forget it, he doesn't understand.


Oh no, he understands, he understands that you play against bots and that you want the new version to be called "The_Fur_2.86".

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 02:05 AM
Ok, i was going to do all your posts but i simply grew tired and i;ve said exactly the same thing in the last 6 posts or so anyway.

I do love it when 16 years olds say anything about Maturity (i.e. eddy). It is laughable.
Yes your posts have been a positive sign of maturity, your well founded and factually based and especilally in-formative writing has enlightened us all. :rolleyes:

Teamwork will no work on the pubs.
My very first post:
The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.


Scoring should be based on a combination of teamwork and accuracy.
At the end of the game it'll be one team congratulating the other on their good tactics/excellent teamwork/smart moves whatever. Rather then mr 1337W4nK3r spamming his score.
Now don't give me that Teamwork doesn't work on publics BS as i've experienced it myself.
Best game of CS i've ever had lasted 15 seconds, we planned the round before, got into position and on my mark everybody went in at once at different points. It was almost like a real CT action, didn't lose anybody in our team and all the 's were down within those 8 seconds of action (7secs to get into place).
Another example, and i can think of many more.


You forum junkies just don't get it. Those who admin servers see this first hand. If we try and force people to play a certain style then they will leave. You cannot enforce team play. You can suggest it only.
Here you said it yourself and I've said exactly the same:
Now how can you discourage people just going off alone and trying teamwork instead? Exactly by scrapping the frags. By basing the score on the eachievement as a team you ecourage people to play like a team.
Now note the following words D I S C O U R A G E, discourage E N C O U R A G E, encourage. Now if you take a good look at these two words you will note that I did not say Force, you will note that in fact I said D I S C O U R A G E and E N C O U R A G E.
I'm not saying you can't have your score i'm saying the score should not be based on kills. It should be based on team behaviour rather then kills. Quite simply because as stated before kills promote going off on your own and get as many befrore the others "steal" them. You are competing against your own "teammates" while in a team game yu should be competing against the other team instead.
Note: P R O M O T E, promote. As in E N C O U R A G E, a specific kind of behaviour. Again note that they do not spell F O R C E, force.
And that should be promoted, simply be scrapping the frags and basing score on a combination of other factors such as survival, accuracy, teamwork, rounds won, rounds lost etc. And again. P R O M O T E, proomote. By now even you will have seen that again the word Force has not been used. It is about P R O M O T I N G a certain behaviour.



We all want to have fun. We just have different ideas which way this Mod should go.
And strangely enough mine coincide with INF's. To make iNF the number one realitic Team game. Which requires the removal of frags since frags are the mortal enemy of teamwork or any other form of play exept deathmatch per my many examples but i shall repeat them all the same:
The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.
Best game of CS i've ever had lasted 15 seconds, we planned the round before, got into position and on my mark everybody went in at once at different points. It was almost like a real CT action, didn't lose anybody in our team and all the 's were down within those 8 seconds of action (7secs to get into place).That is the same reason why for instance in The Opera you got guys running around with shotguns. Because you get a lot of kills. While in The opera getting kills is basically irrelevant the only way you are going to score well is by using style but since they see kills they don't care even if they end up on the bottom of the scoring list as long as they have the most kills.
This led to people abandoning style and simply going for kills (even though you can get up to 45 times the cash (which is what ranking in The Opera is based on) for a single kill if it's stylish).
So within a week or two you didn't see any rolls anymore no people wall jumping, sliding or any other cool moves. Just people running around with shotguns or dual desert eagles trying to get the most kills.I can think of more if you are still incapable of understanding.

Team play exist in clan matches.[quote]
Yes it does whioch brings me to this point supporting the fact that frags do not belong in a game like INF.
Now take a look why in clans actually exist. Because they want to be the best AS A TEAM. Individual frags mean nothing, all that counts is the teams result in the end. The most important player in a clan match is not nescessarilly the one with the most frags.
Effectively in clan matches frags do not exist. So that should be what publics are strifing for since this is after all a TEAM game.


[quote]It has been said before. You want team play then join a clan.[quote]
Here you are the one forcing (F O R C I N G, note the difference with E N C O U R A G I N G and P R O M O T I N G) ME to do something. Something which in fact should not be nescessary since infiltration is a TEAM game. Guess what the primary goal is... yes strangely enough it is TEAMplay. That means that the MAIN form of playing should be TEAM-based.
Maybe you are missing my point. but since this is a TEAM game it is exactly what public games should be like. TEAMwork should be the 1st goal everything else is secondary.
I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team.
Look those words again: E N C O U R A G E, and P R O M O T E. See? still no Force.


[quote]It was stated to not tell Warren and company how to run this game.And what am I doing? I'm pointing out my opinion on the matter of scoring and why the current system wont work to reach INF's goals IE to become a realistic TEAM game.


I say if I was Warren and the INF company I would want to know all this feedback. Especially those who are supporting the INF communities by putting up expensive servers.
Well if you don't like it then don't put up your "expensive" server. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. I'm sure we could find another person or company to host a server. Especially when 286 comes out many new people will come bringing many new servers. You will not be missed.

We are paying for the hardware and T3 lines to support everyone's online addiciton. Don't forget that people.[quote]
Yup ofcourse that means that you should have instant controll... maybe you are forgetting that this mod is not yours and that you have no more to say then me on how the game is developped.
You have no more to say then me or any new guy to INF.

[quote]So the previous MUF bashing is way out of line. I see very little appreciation for all the clans who front the cost so you can play online.Well if they don't like it they can play another game or come here and put up some arguements which you have completely failed to do. Your only arguement so far has been that you run a server. Well whooptie doo.
Hoe does me running or not running a server in validate my opinion? please elaborate. Just because you run a server does not mean you have more say in the development of this game.
In fact if were going that way I'd outweigh you since I beta test this game, now i'm not using that to in-validate your points now am i? No I gave example after example of games where counting frags killed the teamwork on-line. And you so far have not come up with even one point where counting frags has improved teamwork. In fact you have not come up with any positive points frags have besides the fact that you like them.



I think personlized scoring has value. I like to know who is playing well and if I am kicking some ass or not.And so do I, I wnat to klnow how much I am helping the TEAM And this can be done by another system then frags. per my previous examples.
I think the scoring system did favor the cqb'ers and why not? Those are the dogs in the trenches fighting it out. The snipers got less points for a reason, lower risk. Maybe the scoring could go one point for one kill as a compromise.
How is that a compromise? And on top of this I've allready give examples of Why FRAGS DO NOT WORK!!! Oh and here I gave a example of how you could measure your value to the team without using frags.
I didn't say you where but kills should not be the basis of teamwork. There are many ways to determine who has been the biggest asset to the team besides frags.

IMO score should be based on mix of the various other parameters. So say ((teamwork+accuracy)/2xrounds won)-100 point per TK (note that teamwork and accuracy are in percentages so 100 points is not that hard to get your hands on.
Oh wait I forgot you don't even want this game to be an enjoyable experience for people who "do not put up expensive servers". or are not in clan matches.


You have not given a strong arguement on any topic yet.
WAHAHAHAHAHAHA, uhm ok lets get real here. I have given many arguements on why teamwork cannot exist in conjuction with frags and your entire counter floats on the fact that "you set up an expensive server".
Let's see about not putting up any points, lets see how many you put up...
And meat sac i have teh same arguments simply because it is true. Could you please point me to a single game that has frags and at the same time has good teamwork on public servers?

guess what... there are none.
Any answer from you? nope.

oh and point out a single example where i did not state the simple truth on how frags affect players in any of my above points. Good luck, you'll need it.
Any takers? nope.

meat sac, please point out the "posive" effect frags have on teamwork and please do not place them in a utopic environment.
Still nothing, not a single reason why frags should be kept other then the fact that you like em.


Your suggestion that beta is more importand that running servers for EVERYONE (including you) is ridiculous and selfish. I did not suggest this, you were the one that stated that you in some reason were superiour because you put up your server or whatever. I on the otherhand am incvolved in the development of this mod. No beta testers no mod, no mod nothing to waste your server on. You stated this noww you finish this.


You clearly have an agenda with this mod and it is obvious you are in the minority. Sorry to state the obvious but I feel you need the help.
Guess what my "agenda" is, to make this the number one TEAM-modeification for Unreal Tournament... OH NO... THE SHAME!!!!!!!
Quite simple really. If I and my x-com buddies would go into WWIIOL and started demanding UFO's should we get it just because we are with more people? Uhm I don't think so since that is not in line with the games goals.
Provided I could get enough people to support this this would by your definition automatically mean that they should obey my wishes? Because after all I am with the majority.
In fact I think the majority wanted the M60, so i guess that is what the team HAS to work on now? :rolleyes:


My interaction with you leaves me incredibly unimpressed. No wonder your are attacked everytime you post. You are also proving to not have the level of comprehension to understand all points discussed. You go off on tangents and send everyone spinning. Maybe you should read what has been said and see who is not comprehending what.


I did see you online ONCE. And if that is any indication of your ability then I am correct in assuming you are not good at this game and thus are so defensive (I.e. see your naseau inducing post count).
Yeah ofcourse All my 3000 posts were made in this thread to defend myself for your incmprehensible levels of non-recognition :rolleyes:


If you think you can discuss any topic like a clear minded lucid individual then I will welcome it, but so far you are not capable of such. So I will cease any further pointless arguing with you. You simply just don't get it.
If only you had done so.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The_Fur
That will mean that eventually they will spill over to the Team-play servers and ruin those as well. Simply because they are the masses.

Anyway I can't restate this enough. INF is a TEAMgame, so it should be about teamwork. You won't get that by making it optional.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fur, proving my point about forcing a certain gaming style. If the masses want it, who are you (one extremist) to tell everyone how to play?
See the X-com example.


And your last attempt at responding to my post was futile at best. I do not NORMALLY take the time to go back and hit the little quote button or read more posts you direct to others. I was responding things directed at me. I don't feel the need to repost your nonsensical dribble anyway. You are simply the most thick headed individual I have ever had the displeasure of conversing with. I say bring it to the servers! and put your money where your foot, err mouth is
You have still not brought up a single valid arguement supported bty any sort of facts or actual reasoning why we should keep frag while I have brought up reasons why NOT to keep frags. Youer entire arguement floats on the fact that you like em, oh and ofcourse the masses (whoch are irrelevant simply because they adapt to the game, not the other way around fortunately. WElse we'd still be playing pong). Oh yeah and your precious server.


Haha, Fur your reasoning simply makes me laugh. Infantile mentality is what I would describe you as. You can make up any bullsh*t reasoning you have to justify your closed-mindedness. You do not control how this mod is played and never will. Chew on that for a while when you are playing with your bots offline.

"." i mean wtf? you are the one not even trying to put up an arguement.


The rest of us will continue to play this mod the way we see fit no matter how much you post.
Oh so now you are the self appointed voice for everybody else as well? Anyway I don't care how YOU play, however you will not be encouraged in your teamwork raping ways by frags.


For the record you have not disproven any comments I have stated. You are the one who continues to taste feet.

... could you start at the beginning and read the first 500 or so lines? I have disproven EVERY single "arguement" you put up while you have not even attempted to counter any of mine.


Fur, you make my arguement for me everytime you open your mouth.

"I'm not talking about controlling, nor have i ever said anything about controlling players. All I want is to uncourage em to play "proper" (IE as a team) and this can simply be attained by discouraging or simply NOT promoting them to compete against eachother within the team." Fur

Again Fur your definition of "proper" play should not be railroaded down the throats of others. Like you love to do.
as my friendly weird white roundfaced forum animal allready pointed out i did not railroad anything down anybodies throat. Oh and I pointed this out in the first half of this text as well. Just in case you missed it... AGAIN.


My post count is getting embarrassinly high, almost 30 so I will not post anymore. I would hate to rack up a count of 3000+ like some people. That is too much opinion ramming for anyone person. Cya online for a fun game of TDM. Come join the fun Fur.
"."

your opinion is yours Fur and means nothing to me. I won't lose any sleep knowing you don't like or agree with me.

Damn this wasn't even amusing you could at least have put up some sort of arguement.

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 02:15 AM
Fur, you are a well rounded guy and I think that not only should INF be based on your beliefs, but also every game! You speak for everybody on planet Earth and I'm happy to have you as my guide!

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 02:20 AM
What was the point of all that Fur, to up your post count more? The insults were out of line on your last post. I tried to end taking the high road and finish where I started but you wouldn't let it go.

80% of that was taken out of context or posts you stated that I didn't bother reading. There was also a ton of posts that had nothing to do with me. As I stated before I don't feel the need TO READ ALL your post unless directed at me. Don't try and put words in my mouth with topics you are discussing with others. I like your little snide remarks after all the quotes. Sure you can say anything when you have the last word, whatever makes you feel better man.

I will continue to play this game as I want to. I am going my way and you are going yours, glad they aren't on the same path.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 02:23 AM
Exactly you didn't read em all maybe that is why you are so full of ****, and ALLL of those quotes wwere directly from you since i simply took everything YOU said and pointed out the gaping holes in your reasoning.


BYTW you have still not put up any counter arguement.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Meat Sac
Nor do you Fur.

This whole topic has Fur's statements in it telling people what he feels the mod should be and how is should be played (he has a right to his opinion, just don't force it on anyone). He has a closed minded approach. Anyone who offers an opposite view is treated with little respect or with a condescending tone. Fur is not better than anyone in any matter and shouldn't act as such.

I do apologize for me being brought down to an uncivilized conversation level.. I started off with diplomatic statements but was prodded by Fur into a pissing match. That is not who I am, nor will I continue in that vain.

My final thoughts regarding this matter.

I totally disagree with Fur's opinions as to what level team play actually exist with this mod. My take is pubs will be the same and clan matches will always be based on tactics and team play. Agree or disagree, no matter. I will not suggest or force anyone to play in a particular manner on the pubs. That is our right as server admins. EAS may change the dynamics of this mod, we will have to wait and see. TDM will always be about frag count on the pubs. Not in clan matches, true that is all about final score as it should be.

I thought Fur should read this one more time :)

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 02:28 AM
Fur, your an ass. PERIOD.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 02:31 AM
thank you for your isightfull and valuable comments sup.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by The_Fur
Exactly you didn't read em all maybe that is why you are so full of ****, and ALLL of those quotes wwere directly from you since i simply took everything YOU said and pointed out the gaping holes in your reasoning.


BYTW you have still not put up any counter arguement.

Again, what's with the hostility Fur?

I simply will not read all your post. Understand that and be happy. But dont direct them at me as if I stated them or answer them as I am talking to you like you did. Bad form on your part. I did read your entire marathon last post and not all those quotes are from me, stating they are is just untrue. I have stated my opinions you just disagree.

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 02:34 AM
I said PERIOD Fur. That means no further comment! (Infinity X1000 just so you can understand).

Bad.Mojo
18th Aug 2001, 02:46 AM
Its fu<i></i>cking wastes of flesh like you that make me stay in the Off Topic forum, Meat Sac. People like you and Sup turn Infiltration into Counter-Strike and seem to get your nancy rocks off doing it.

I understand why you'd want frag counts, Meat Sac. The only way to prove your he-bitch man-tittied self is good for anything is by having stastical data to back up your worthless ass. Big kids won't let you play kickball? Go home and play Inf. 31 frags? TOUCHDOWN, YOU JOCKS!

I understand where you're coming from, believe me, I've read enough of my sister's abnormal psychology books to comprehend the minds of mutant mongoloid children like yourself. I especially love the way you preach your opinion about Fur preaching his opinions. The hilariously subdued hypocrisy is an example of what happens when you force your baby to drink three gallons of paint thinner.

Please, don't let your over-thirty post count force you to go back to picking paint chips off the wall as an after-school snack, though. I'm certainly interested in what you have to say, and the forums are probably a better place to do it than on [\/]34+ s4xX0rz r33+ 56k z3rv3r, because there you can only say "j00 suxX0rz f4gG0+" in one-line spurts.

While people like myself and Fur have a general commitment to trying to improve the Infiltration experience, you have a general commitment to seeing how many of your chunky fingers you can cram into your rectum without needing to go to the emergency room.

Please, before you go and spout a bunch of hypocrisy and stupidity and generally make yourself look like the evolutionary equivalent of a talking anus, <i>think</i>, son... think. I know its hard for a second-grade drop out like yourself, but give it a shot. With some serious mental practice, you can become a regular Mathlete! Go for the Gold! One day, you may even realize your dream of running in the Special Olympics (I got ten bucks on the kid with PKU.)

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 02:53 AM
Wow, another INF extremist comes out of the woodwork. Thanks for the constructive criticism Mojo, oh wait there wasn't any. It was all name calling. What was your point other than to attack me with insults? There is nothing positive that can come from your post. Jeez, thanks for chimming in though. This thread was losing momentum and almost was resolved.

I turn the floor over to MOJO. Go ahead man, I'm done here.

Cpt.Cypher
18th Aug 2001, 02:57 AM
Whoa!!! He blew his top!!! :lol:

But seriously. I have read the entire topic and meat sac you have not made a counter-argument to saying that frags discourage teamplay.

Just keep in mind that Infiltration is aiming for as much realism as gameplay will allow and as there saying goes "Not pleasing the masses since....". The Infiltration team is aiming for alot of realism and frag counting is not realistic. If you want a game that is strictly about frags there are other great mods out there (SF. People say Tac-Ops is good, but I don't see why yet). Now I can see that you use tactics in clan games (I would hope so ;) ) but why should those that don't have the time or skills not have the privlage of a good, tactical game. I think they should in my opinion. And as such I believe that efforts should be made to remove the single-minded mentality of the pubs. Now many would say that it can't be done, it will never be done. But if you look at history (not just gaming, any history) its filled with things that people said could not be done. Now making a public server a team oriented environment will not be something little Cypher Jr. will studying in school, but it would be a grand step in the world of gaming. And with the direction Infiltration is going I am afraid that people working as a team will be a must.

Ideas from me to make pubs better organized
- the removal of frags as a score, make it a private score to just you, take a pic if you need the record
- addition of a planning phase
- players cannot enter mid map
- bonus for accomplashing assinged objective
- objectives added such as "hold this area" and clear out this area and hold

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Meat Sac
I'm done here.

bump for Cypher

Bad.Mojo
18th Aug 2001, 03:06 AM
You long ago destroyed the ability to make this constructive, Ball Sac. Now that you've caused it to degrade with your tumourous infestations of <b><i>MY</b></i> forums, and now that Fur has pointed out your idiocy to me, I felt the unbelievable need to respond, much like I feel the unbelievable need to pick on, and eventually drive to suicide, the incredibly stupid. Just dumping a bit of chlorine into the shallow end of the gene pool, that's all.

You see, your inane, unfunny, unwitty, unintelligent, unsophisticated, unthought-out, unbelievably stupid comments rank among highly on my list of the Top Most Incredibly Dumb Fuc<i></i>king Things I Have Ever Read In My Entire Life, slightly edging out Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.

Now, I understand its not your fault the umbilical cord was knotted in the uterus, thereby depriving you of life giving oxygen and resulting in pre-natal brain damage, but please, keep your stupidity to the special ed class.

I could, as Fur did, go back over all your comments, and point out how much of a waste of human skin you are, but I won't. You insult people yourself, and you cram your opinion of Fur cramming his opinion down people's throats down people's throats. Ipso facto, you are some sort of hypocrite either to slow to understand that he's a charlatan idiot, or you just really want me to use you as a human punching bag.

Your idle threats of leaving the forum make me sick. Not because I'd be sad to see you go, but because quite the opposite -- you said you were leaving and then line up to take more abuse. I've taken on bigger, badder, and better than you, and I've <i>always</i> one. Cut your losses and get the hell out of my forums.

P.S.: To any dumbass long enough to read through this boring, useless waste of ones and zeroes, this post is marking my official comeback to the general forum. There was once a time when stupid off topic posts would be deleted or moved to the off topic section, now these tits are allowed to run free and rampant in the house that Mojo built. No more.

Cpt.Cypher
18th Aug 2001, 03:06 AM
Fair enough.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 03:10 AM
But seriously. I have read the entire topic and meat sac you have not made a counter-argument to saying that frags discourage teamplay. This is one of the points i have been trying to get trough his massive dinosour style skull for the past 3 pages or so but he's just not capable of comprehending it.


Again, what's with the hostility Fur?

WTF? the fact that you even DARE ask such a stupid question makes you a waste of protoplasm. You come here and act like you ****ing own the place with your pansy server and continue to attack me personally while completely ignoring any facts or arguements and in fact not bringing any of your own and you wonder why i'm pissed off at you?

You can't possibly be that stupid, i mean you could tutor "Dubya" in stupidity that's how ****ing stupid you are. It baffles belief.


I simply will not read all your post. Understand that and be happy. But dont direct them at me as if I stated them or answer them as I am talking to you like you did. Bad form on your part. I did read your entire marathon last post and not all those quotes are from me, stating they are is just untrue. I have stated my opinions you just disagree.
THOSE ARE YOUR ****ING POSTS YOU HYPOCRITE SON OF A SCALY CROTCHED WHORE. THEY ARE YOUR EXACT WORDS AND AS YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE THEY ARE ABOUT AS COHERENT AS CHICKEN SOUP. Don't pull that ****ing **** with me you waste of bloodcells.

PROMAGNUM
18th Aug 2001, 03:34 AM
I would just like to take this time to advertise
www.infiltration-maps.com

you can now resume this soiled a-track of a topic. :)

GNAT
18th Aug 2001, 09:13 AM
Yay another communist!

BrownBeaver
18th Aug 2001, 10:05 AM
Does anyone have an opinion on global warming?:D

vedder
18th Aug 2001, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Bad.Mojo
Its fu<i></i>cking wastes of flesh like you that make me stay in the Off Topic forum, Meat Sac. People like you and Sup turn Infiltration into Counter-Strike and seem to get your nancy rocks off doing it.

I understand why you'd want frag counts, Meat Sac. The only way to prove your he-bitch man-tittied self is good for anything is by having stastical data to back up your worthless ass. Big kids won't let you play kickball? Go home and play Inf. 31 frags? TOUCHDOWN, YOU JOCKS!

I understand where you're coming from, believe me, I've read enough of my sister's abnormal psychology books to comprehend the minds of mutant mongoloid children like yourself. I especially love the way you preach your opinion about Fur preaching his opinions. The hilariously subdued hypocrisy is an example of what happens when you force your baby to drink three gallons of paint thinner.

Please, don't let your over-thirty post count force you to go back to picking paint chips off the wall as an after-school snack, though. I'm certainly interested in what you have to say, and the forums are probably a better place to do it than on [\/]34+ s4xX0rz r33+ 56k z3rv3r, because there you can only say "j00 suxX0rz f4gG0+" in one-line spurts.

While people like myself and Fur have a general commitment to trying to improve the Infiltration experience, you have a general commitment to seeing how many of your chunky fingers you can cram into your rectum without needing to go to the emergency room.

Please, before you go and spout a bunch of hypocrisy and stupidity and generally make yourself look like the evolutionary equivalent of a talking anus, <i>think</i>, son... think. I know its hard for a second-grade drop out like yourself, but give it a shot. With some serious mental practice, you can become a regular Mathlete! Go for the Gold! One day, you may even realize your dream of running in the Special Olympics (I got ten bucks on the kid with PKU.)

I know i said i was done with this thread but,
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Man you rule.

LepraKip
18th Aug 2001, 10:15 AM
R:DO:DF:DL:DM:DA:DO

GNAT
18th Aug 2001, 11:01 AM
Public games will never contain the amount of teamwork involved in a clan/organized match.

put that in your quote and post it!

freakin quote whores :)

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 11:17 AM
Please STFU.

Nobody expects em to be the same, we do however ecxpect teamwork to be the main focus of Infiltration since this is a realistic Team game.

WizBiz
18th Aug 2001, 11:23 AM
Bad Mojo, I am so glad that you built the house that we now own. It is truly appreciated. The problem with people like you is that your infantile attitude towards holding on to something that was never yours to hold onto in the first place. What gives you the inclination that you have any ownership? What makes you feel like your off-topic flame deserves to grace my computer on this early Saturday morning (Late night for you in Communist China)? Itís really commendable for you to end your self-proclaimed retirement from "your" forum to come in and assist your little 16-year-old friend, The_Fur. I really like how he bites off more than he can chew and cries to the "legendary" Mojo for a life ring. I never would have figured he would have had any friends as he sits typing away acidic post after acidic post hoping to piss off anyone with a differing opinion than his own. I say go back to your other forums. One Fur is enough for this one.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 11:28 AM
"Your idle threats of leaving the forum make me sick. Not because I'd be sad to see you go, but because quite the opposite -- you said you were leaving and then line up to take more abuse. I've taken on bigger, badder, and better than you, and I've always one. Cut your losses and get the hell out of my forums. " MOJO

Remind me why I should care who you are? Cuz so far you are not giving me any good reason to take you seriously. Attacking me will do you no good other than to make yourself feel better. I assume you are feeling fine by now, or atleast your gettin' off on it. They are fun to read.

Fur, I do not own this place nor ever eluded to it. I think the fact that I hardly post here shows I do not normally come around here. The fact that I am trying to leave this topic without any more hostility is being LOST. The waste of space type comments are out of line, we are talking about a game.

The fact that you respond to post does not mean you disprove them, it simply means you have an opposing view.

TEAM WORK VS FRAG COUNT - this may piss those realism extremeist but here it goes.

TDM
I never believe that a team game can be successful on the pubs. You have to many varables. Players coming and going is the biggest I can think of. I play on the pubs for selfish reasons. I like to run/gun and have fun with others. If I spot a clan member or buddy I will team up for awhile and run the map but I won't do it the whole game. Because I am playing this game for me. I like to know how I am doing opposed to others. I like it when my teams wins, don't get me wrong. I want my experience playing to be self-fullfilling. If I am not having fun I see no need to continue (with anything for that matter, it's gotta be fun). I want frag count in for the self measuring aspect. Why shouldn't I be allowed to play this game as I see fit? no counter reason really cuz people will play how the want to anyway. This is a death match and that is how I am gonna play it. We have already all agreed that none of this applies to clan matches, so I won't go into it.

EAS
I know little about this. I have to wait and see but I like the concept of it. I see this having a better chance of team movement on the pubs than TDM because of EAS's nature .

I am sure someone is yelling at the screen but your TDM doesn't have anything supporting the concept of team. And you know what, your right. If it happens then it happens, but otherwise its still a deathmatch. There are those who continue to play TDM and like having high personal scores and team victories, who doesn't?

TDM - I want frag counts
Clan matches - final team score
EAS - final team score

GNAT
18th Aug 2001, 11:44 AM
Please refrain from the stfu or name calling fur I'm not here to argue with u, just read...


You are right teamwork can occur in a public match. Teamwork can occur in a public match in the run n gun 2.75 and 2.85. Myself, meat sac, and c.chan had a teamwork orgy last night as one of them pointed out. We rocked a team on reactor 6 working together. When we say you can never have teamwork on the pubs we mean you will never find teamwork or organize teamwork on pubs that excell to the level of teamwork found in a clan match. Yes you can have 2 or 3 people working together but the instances where you get more than that working with each other are few and far between. My run n gun style encompasses what many feel as teamwork. I use my voice commands constantly and provide backup as well as require backup. I am always thinking on my toes and doing what has to be done to win. Hopefully this little insight can help you understand what we mean when we say you can never have FULL cooperation and teamwork in the pubs.

The fact is that we all have different definitions of teamwork. I believe that your definitions of teamwork is alive in some of the pubs. Like I stated above we took the other team playing as a team, or a division of a team. This was in fact teamwork fur, but no where close to that of an organized match. When I hear you speak of teamwork I think of organized matches. I presume you are talking about something similar to what I described above. If you are then we are on seperate pages. The teamwork I hit on above does happen in the pubs. It happens all the time. If you are trying to encourage that then fine, so be it, more power to you.

Can we not come to some common thought on this whole subject? Believe me we all know what teamwork is and we all now how it works. Can you not agree that it will be next to impossible to get the type of organization found in clan matches in a public game? You may in fact get most of the team working together, great! absolutely great. You will in the same token have people doing their own thing and going their own directions. Not to mention player disconnects and so on. So the answer is no, you wont get the teamplay of an organized match on a public server. Have I tried? ohhhhh yes, yes I have. Did it work? to a certain extent and to a certain extent only. It is gratifying to make a difference working together. No one is arguing that point.

Is there room for improvement? sure there is always room for improvement. So lets talk about the subject at hand and not continue in such a spitefull manner.

Fur the fact that we dont expect them to be the same is our common ground now. We can talk about how to make it better now that we have common ground to focus on. We must get our definitions of teamwork in line with each other.

JonnyBoyDT
18th Aug 2001, 12:08 PM
I'm back! did you miss me?


Heres what I don't understand...


So far the ONLY people that are demanding this no frag count thing are people that DON'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME.


if you don't play infiltration online...than why the hell does it matter to you? go play your botmatches and order all of them to hump your legs and go on with life happy.


when mojo was banned i actually signed the petition...but now I think I am regretting doing that. His last posts show total ignorance by totally bashing one side of the argument without even considering the strong points that is making our side feel the way we do.

Now I'm not going to get in a fight with you Mojo over the internet like you do with so many other people...thats just stupid...so whatever you write in a rebuttle(or however you spell it) to this post will be ignored, and I ask everyone else to ignore it as well.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 12:17 PM
Wizbiz:

Itís really commendable for you to end your self-proclaimed retirement from "your" forum to come in and assist your little 16-year-old friend, The_Fur. I really like how he bites off more than he can chew and cries to the "legendary" Mojo for a life ring. I don't know what resides under that thick skull of yours but i'm positive that it isn't brain matter.
I don't know how the hell you figured that I am 16 y old (which I am not). And i sure as hell don't know where you figured I bit off more then I could chew. I allrteady ched, digested and dumped out Meat Sacs worthless so-called arguemnents (oh wait I forgot he never actually put up any arguement, just a mass of incoherent ramblings). But ofcourse all this missed your head by about a mile or six.

let's have a look what insightfull contributions you made.

Why even have a "score"? A scoring system that is made up of rules such as "damage + teamwork + bonus+ percentage= score" is misleading on how a person actually performed during a round.

All we really need for TDM is statistics. Let us decipher who was the most important to their team based on a simple count of the following:

Kills
Deaths
TK's
Nothing wrong here yet, however the very next post allready cuts down to the main problem: this doesn't work for a game which is primarilly a TEAMgame. you know:
I guess I can see in some extremely abstract, 3rd dimension way how you could consider that statement from the manual to be individualistic. The core nature of Infiltration is based on teamwork. It's implied.Obviously if you can pick that out of the manual, I need to change it to include working as a team specifically.

Originally posted by farouk
Because that doesn't promote teamplay which is the whole point in the debate on Inf's scoring system.

I'd be happy without any scoring or statistics but most players want something of that kind.
And here I elaborate

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) the scoreboard, as it provides information, is a way to help you personally work better as a team. Infiltration is a harder game than most. The weapons are harder, and the movement is harder- which is why working as a team is important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



All nice and peachy but it just doesn't work that way. It didn't work in Firearms, It didn't work in CS (they even canceled the Scoreboard back in the early days and people were still going for frags so they could see them at the end of the game and look at their 1337 skillz.
As long as you base rank on kills you can toss any hope of teamwork out the window. Especially with certain "people" (like eddie vedder pointed out) in the community allready and more are to come.

KILLS WILL HAVE TO GO, that is if you care in the slightest bit about teamwork.


The only few good games of CS i';ve ever had were wen CS was still new and most people didn't know about their kills being counted. You'd see people covering eachother. Terrorists guarding hostages, CT's escorting FB-ing rooms for eachtother etc. Ofcourse as soon as they found out they got points for kills and were ranked on that... down the drain it all went.


Scoring should be based on a combination of teamwork and accuracy.
At the end of the game it'll be one team congratulating the other on their good tactics/excellent teamwork/smart moves whatever. Rather then mr 1337W4nK3r spamming his score.
My first post here, In case you want more examples look at my massive post on the previous page.


People like to see how they do in comparison to others in all aspects of everything. You call it rude and selfish, I call it being competitive.
This is a TEAMgame you can be competitive all you want, as long as you compete against the other team. That is the entire point of a TEAMgame.
That is the only behaviour that should be encouragedd, you can play any other way but don't expect that to earn you any merits. If you want tyo compete against others so bad there are allready plenty non-team games out there like Tac-Ops and Strike Force.

BTW... I think that if I post within 5 minutes of someone, I should get their post added to my post count as well.
"."

Eddie: I am a huge vain, failure which causes me to put all my effort into a computer game! Ease up on the personal attacks FF! When did I ever say I kill my own teammates if there is a chance to improve my own score? I do not deny that I go 100% to achieve my goals. I am a competitive person who likes to see stats. Yes, I do enjoy seeing how I compare to others via statistics. I would also use the stats to recruit new teamates as well as scouting opposing teams. I understand that you cant judge anyone on stats alone, but it is a start.
ANd then I pointed out you can have your beloved stats, just base don different parameters due to the poroblems stated in the beginning of this post.

Now how can you discourage people just going off alone and trying teamwork instead? Exactly by scrapping the frags. By basing the score on the eachievement as a team you ecourage people to play like a team.
Oh and then you were out of ammo:


Fur, how about hopping up on the handle bars of your sisters bike and have her drive you to the local candy store. You obviously are missing something(sugar maybe) out of your diet to be such a coplete dick to everyone who disagrees with you.
"."
[b]Fur, I think you should go play that(hostile intent) if that is what you are looking for in a game. If not that, why not take a dive off the tallest builing in your neighborhood. Your attitude on these forums is a cancer and should be eliminated. Maybe the guys who play Hostile Intent will welcome you in open arms. I sure don't see that happening here.[/b
originally posted by Warren
I guess I can see in some extremely abstract, 3rd dimension way how you could consider that statement from the manual to be individualistic. The core nature of Infiltration is based on teamwork. It's implied.Obviously if you can pick that out of the manual, I need to change it to include working as a team specifically.
Guess what that is what I want inf to be... and it is what inf is supposed to be!

here is more of your brilliant thinking
Changing the scoring will never change the way people play the game, nor it should.
Well since it is the main thing that drives people to play a game it would, Could I see any logical foundation which you cased your statement on?
If you observe what happens in other games people play for the score. That is why people play snake, pacman and yes even INF. You can change the entire way people play by adjusting the scoring. Say you now only get points for eating the ghosts in pacman, now eating the ghosts will become your primary target rather then eating the dots.
It works the same for INF. Score is the main drive of most people so you can alter the way they play by altering the scoring system.

Fur, is your skull that fookin thick? What is the point of team death match?
INfiltration is a TEAMPrimarily this means that TEEAMComes first. Everything else is derived from that. It's your goal to work as a team and topple the enemy. Not as a group of individuals like those other so-called team games.

I_ABuGa
18th Aug 2001, 12:19 PM
oot oot. Me agrees with JB's bit about the scoring.

Me needs to be reminding youse peeps to play nice, hmm-kay? A little agression goes so far, a little patience could change the world.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 12:24 PM
JB, if you had actually read the thread you would know WHY we don't play INF.
-For starters i don;t even have 285 installed since i test 286 and they are not compatible,
-second Most of us don't play for the same reason we don't play CS, ATM INF is supposed to be a realistic team game but the play does not match this.
-third INF 286 will be completely different from the UT styyle gameplay you simpletants enjoy so much. It's a stemp in the right way inmaking the individual less powefrull now however we need to steer the Players in the right direction.
Read the rest of my last post for that i'm tired of having to regurgitate everything for you devoid of brain people.

vedder
18th Aug 2001, 12:27 PM
Fur you have the patience of a saint.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 12:37 PM
TDM
I never believe that a team game can be successful on the pubs. You have to many varables. Players coming and going is the biggest I can think of[
Sigh, does nothing penetrate your fat head? I have given many examples where it in fact worked and WHY it in fact worked.

I play on the pubs for selfish reasons. I like to run/gun and have fun with others. If I spot a clan member or buddy I will team up for awhile and run the map but I won't do it the whole game. Because I am playing this game for me. I like to know how I am doing opposed to others.
And I have stated several times that you can still; know how you are doing, just trough methods that promote TEAMWORK. just ****ing read the posts.

I like it when my teams wins, don't get me wrong. I want my experience playing to be self-fullfilling. If I am not having fun I see no need to continue (with anything for that matter, it's gotta be fun). I want frag count in for the self measuring aspect.
That sumks up your entire arguement: I want frag count in for the self measuring aspect.
You want, you have not brought a single other arguement to bear then the fact that you want it. I gave many other examples of how to measure your worth.

Rem,ember thnat INF is not just another FPS in which your point is to run around like a mkoron and shoot people. It is a team game in which achieveing the goals as a team is important. Further more this is a REALISTIC team game, which means that running out shooting 2 people and dying while it may supposedly be "achieving the goals" does not fit in the picture.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to play this game as I see fit?
Yuo can play as you want, you however cannot expect to be rewarded for playing the game in a style that doesn't fit with the game. You can still ytry running around alon for frags, just don't expect to get any points for it. This alone will discourage most people from doing so as they play only for score.

no counter reason really cuz people will play how the want to anyway. This is a death match and that is how I am gonna play it.
This is a TEAMDeathmatch, do I need to quote warren again, probably but since you don't read anyway that'd be a waste of bandwith.

We have already all agreed that none of this applies to clan matches, so I won't go into it.
"."

I am sure someone is yelling at the screen but your TDM doesn't have anything supporting the concept of team.
Your amazing deductional capabilities stun me, i'd have to quote a certain person again, but i allready did twice so just go and read back.

And you know what, your right. If it happens then it happens, but otherwise its still a deathmatch. There are those who continue to play TDM and like having high personal scores and team victories, who doesn't? see above.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 12:51 PM
I believe the part where I said just because you respond to post does not mean you disprove my point of view, you are merely stating an opposing opinion. Relates to everything you say Fur

Just because you like to point out what your opinions of measuring self worth does not mean I have to agree with them, no matter how many time you refer to them. If I think I want frag counts, than thats my opinion.


Quit trying to win this Fur, there are no winners with this topic.

Can you resond to any post without resorting to insults?

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 12:53 PM
At least GNAT seems to make some sence

Please refrain from the stfu or name calling fur I'm not here to argue with u, just read...
I'll try :)


You are right teamwork can occur in a public match. Teamwork can occur in a public match in the run n gun 2.75 and 2.85. Myself, meat sac, and c.chan had a teamwork orgy last night as one of them pointed out. We rocked a team on reactor 6 working together. When we say you can never have teamwork on the pubs we mean you will never find teamwork or organize teamwork on pubs that excell to the level of teamwork found in a clan match.
I never said you could, however it should be the main focus of the game seeing how it is a realistic team game.

Yes you can have 2 or 3 people working together but the instances where you get more than that working with each other are few and far between.
My point exactly, and I want to change this because it does not fit with what inf is supposed to be. Changing the scoring is a tool for this.

My run n gun style encompasses what many feel as teamwork. I use my voice commands constantly and provide backup as well as require backup. I am always thinking on my toes and doing what has to be done to win. Hopefully this little insight can help you understand what we mean when we say you can never have FULL cooperation and teamwork in the pubs.
I understand that, most players are simply not smart enough or do not care, this does not mean we should lower the standard to their level. All we can do is try and encourage them to start thinking and acting in the way that fits the game. IE realistic and team oriented.

When I hear you speak of teamwork I think of organized matches. I presume you are talking about something similar to what I described above. If you are then we are on seperate pages. The teamwork I hit on above does happen in the pubs. It happens all the time. If you are trying to encourage that then fine, so be it, more power to you.
Ok, give me the power :), that is all that i want. Adapt scoring to encourage players in the right direction. Nothing more. I believe that trough scoring you can change peoples behaviour as it caused the issues I and many others have with most "realistic team"-games in the first place.

Can we not come to some common thought on this whole subject?My position stands, firmly supported by arguements, examples and simple common sence.

Is there room for improvement? sure there is always room for improvement. So lets talk about the subject at hand and not continue in such a spitefull manner.
Fine with me, But I've said all I had to say and I have not seen a single good arguement against any oef the points I made so far, which is what pissed me off in the 1st place and caused this nasty collection of quotes.

Fur the fact that we dont expect them to be the same is our common ground now. We can talk about how to make it better now that we have common ground to focus on. We must get our definitions of teamwork in line with each other.
They are alligned and always were.

WizBiz
18th Aug 2001, 01:06 PM
LOL Fur. You are something else. I cant fault you for having such an intense passion for this game. I think everyone who has posted in this thread has an equal love for this mod an feel like we are all posting our ideas for the benefit of this mods future. I just wish it didn't turn into a flame war. There are some really good arguments nestled in between the flames for and against the proximity scoring in TDM games. The INF team has not let me down on any of the previous releases. They have a reputation of implementing changes that people request in these forums. I think that contributes to the intensity because people feel that their ideas have a good chance of being implemented.

I'm done with this conversation. :)

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 01:12 PM
I just wish it didn't turn into a flame war. There are some really good arguments nestled in between the flames for and against the proximity scoring in TDM games.

Just for clearity, there have been a whopping total of 0 valid arguements against it.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 01:21 PM
side note

JB, I find it really funny that MOJO was banned. Can you elaborate?

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 02:34 PM
Fur, since you are a quote whore and you like to dig up everybodie's worthless contributions...at least worthless since it's not par with your ideas, let's just dig up some of your great contributions. Actually, this is pretty much what started the flame war IMO:



Originally posted by The_Fur
Maybe all you "you can't have teamwork on publics" people are new to on-line gaming. That would explain a lot.

Ofcourse you could also just be plain old stupid... another pheasable answer.

TEAMWORK WORKS ON PUBLICS, JUST NOT WITH DICKS LIKE YOU GUYS.

****ING **** **** MORON ****ING ****ERS!!!!

RAAAAAAGHH!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

screw respect, people who'd feel intellectually threathened by most of my household appliances don't deserve respect.


Great contribution Fur!!!!

Bad.Mojo
18th Aug 2001, 03:06 PM
*Yawn* -- WizBiz, let's see. I'll deal with you first, and in a most pesky and unfunny, cause I'm just waking up. These are <i>my</i> forums. I won't go anywhere. I made this house, and I'm evicting you from it. I have a touch more seniority than you, son, so don't be giving me orders. I will verbally berate you until you either a) grow the hell up and stop acting like a retard, or b) get the hell off my forums. If you want to finally let your balls drop and become a normal, contributing member, feel free, I won't hold a grudge. If, on the other hand, you're happy Asking Jeeves how to h4xX0r hotmail, be my guest.

<i>The problem with people like you is that your infantile attitude towards holding on to something that was never yours to hold onto in the first place. What gives you the inclination that you have any ownership?</i>

Hmm, let's see, from March 2000 to January 2000 I got rid of every idiot fu<i></i>cktard on these forums without the help of any moderators or admins.

<i>What makes you feel like your off-topic flame deserves to grace my computer on this early Saturday morning (Late night for you in Communist China)?</i>

See, now you're implying ownership all your own. Hypocrite, I presume to imply it, you attack me for it, then imply it yourself. Charlatan, fu<i></i>ck-up waste of human flesh.

And what the hell are you talking about, late night in Communist China. What's wrong, your mommy won't let you stay up past nine o'clock? Some of us aren't afraid of the dark, and therefore don't try to sleep through it so that the monsters under the bed and in the bathtub drain won't get us when we aren't looking. Second off, if I <i>was</i> in China, my posts would have been made in the afternoon, cause of something called "timezones". I love how you go on to accuse Fur of being 16, despite obviously being about nine or ten years old, since you obviously don't know what timezones are or their "magical functions."

<i>Itís really commendable for you to end your self-proclaimed retirement from "your" forum to come in and assist your little 16-year-old friend, The_Fur. I really like how he bites off more than he can chew and cries to the "legendary" Mojo for a life ring.</i>

First of all, I'm not assisting the Fur, I'm attacking Sac. Second off, your pathetically un-funny reference to those stupid rings in Sonic the Hedgehog or whatever you're talking about with life ring is fu<i></i>cking stupid with a capital motherfu<i></i>cker.

<i>I never would have figured he would have had any friends as he sits typing away acidic post after acidic post hoping to piss off anyone with a differing opinion than his own. I say go back to your other forums. One Fur is enough for this one.</i>

Uh, so far, Fur's explained his point rather patiently. He is only guilty of the level of insults the same as Sac. When Sac said his arguements and opinions weren't based in fact, he patiently demonstrated, through careful arguement, how they were. Sac then went on to say that it doesn't matter if his own opinions weren't based in fact cause they'd never change. He contradicted himself and made a rather stupid ass of himself. I'm on the side of Fur on this one, because he has 'facts' and 'evidence'. You, on the other hand, just have your 'friendly' clan attitude.

Clans, by the way, scream out "HELLO! I AM A LIFELESS GEEK WITH NO FRIENDS, WILL YOU BE MY FRIEND? WE CAN HANG OUT IN OUR ONLINE TREE HOUSE AND TALK DIRTY LANGUAGE! LET'S SWAP FAKE BRITNEY SPEARS NUDE PICS! LOLOLOLOLOL! OUR CLAN IS H4XX0RZ R33+! LETS TALK HIP-HOP AND PUT LENS FLARES ALL OVER OUR WEBPAGE!"

Yeah, you're fu<i></i>cking bad-ass, Biz. I say go back to your hole, one mutant troglodyte like Sac on these forums is enough.

Dank
18th Aug 2001, 03:09 PM
Come on guys ! Why can't we all just get a bong ?! :D

WizBiz
18th Aug 2001, 03:11 PM
LOL Mojo!! You are a true artist! All that just for me? You are to kind.

Bad.Mojo
18th Aug 2001, 03:20 PM
Now you sound like Aussie Joe with your "I just posted to see what Mojo would say" bullsh<i></i>it.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 03:28 PM
Sup you know of all your posts I did not find a sinlge post that was suportive or even relevant to this topic so where the **** do you get off trying to tell me what to do.
People like you should be shot, you are using the valuable oxygen that belong to us who are not evolutionary dead ends.

Ok here it follows the zany and wacky antics of a mammal/plant called Sup
Yup, you got me Fur...I'm a total newbie and a dick. Now, are you 13 or 14 years old?


Fur, older than you, and better at INF as well. Oh, and my daddy can beat up your daddy.


Thank you Fur, you don't know how much that hurts coming from a 13 year old on summer vacation. Surprised it took you so long to reply! Is AOL giving you problems again?


Fur, sorry for all the name calling. I don't think it's a constructive way of getting our points across.


Robrob, thx for the props...I've only missed 3 AA meetings in the past year! LOL


Wow! And I didn't even purposely do that! Weird!


c+k|nEVeRmOre, what's your in game name?


Oh no, he understands, he understands that you play against bots and that you want the new version to be called "The_Fur_2.86".


Fur, you are a well rounded guy and I think that not only should INF be based on your beliefs, but also every game! You speak for everybody on planet Earth and I'm happy to have you as my guide!


Fur, your an ass. PERIOD.


I said PERIOD Fur. That means no further comment! (Infinity X1000 just so you can understand).
Yes you can clearly see that this is a "man" of great intelligence.



On another note, I think a little more respect should go out to people from clan's like MUF and SOB.
people who'd feel intellectually threathened by most of my household appliances don't deserve respect.
Sorry no can do.

They have dug deep into their pockets and sacrificed a lot of their time for the INF community. If you don't like it take your server and run to Tac-Ops, i'm sure people of your caliber will fit right in. Nobody is forcing you to stay here.


Ok just a last one for humors sake:
For those that disagree with the voice comm, tell that to the successfull clans, they ALL use it...and rightfully so.
And concerning the non-voice comm teamwork, I believe the hogwash comment is right. On the AFA server, we have seen some outstanding teamwork being performed without voice comm. And on a side note, I'd like to thank GAT-Rogue right here and now for being the one who always died first on DM-INF-Island just to let me know where the enemy is.
This is about public play you dolt, it has been from the start.



Note: WizBiz the fact that you come back just to have the last word is quite saddening. At least borrrow somebodies spine and put up a fight you pittyfull puddle of a person.

Amnesiac
18th Aug 2001, 03:35 PM
Ok. I think it is time for everyone to reign in their balls and put them back where they belong. If this little war reaches 10 pages I might have to put up one of those lame threads in the general forums about "The State of the Community".:rolleyes:

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 03:43 PM
Mojo??? Where is all this hostility coming from? Also, you included me in one of your posts earlier stating that I have runined this game by making it like CS. First off I have never played CS, so I'm not too sure what it's supposed to imply. Second off, I never even debated the whole teamwork thing, I'm all for teamwork. Unfortunately, we were catagorized by some of the board regulars into fragwhores because we disagreed about the level of teamwork that can be acheived on a public server with random people. From there it turned into a flamewar, pure and simple. It's now become the Forum Regulars against the Online Regulars, which is rediculous. Now you have entered this thread with not one bit of constructive critisism or anything to add to the topic, yet you just choose to slam people that you don't even know at a personal level.

WizBiz in real life is a very nice person as am I. We are both married and have full-time jobs, we play this game because it's relaxing after a long day's work and of course it's fun. We practice teamwork as a clan 2 night's a week and play competitively in a league 2 more night's. I'll be the first to admit that this thread got way out of hand and yes, in rebuttle I said some things that weren't too kind as well. However, your statements toward the people you don't like (Me, Wiz, Sac, and anybody else that doesn't agree with you) are way out of hand. Hell, I'm 13 years older than you are, have 13 more years life experience and knowledge, yet you sit there and write big words with no intent other than to purposely bash other people's character, and for what? I don't know, it just seems to me that it's easier to make friends than to make enemy's, I guess you just like it the other way around.

Meat Sac
18th Aug 2001, 03:45 PM
I said a long time ago now I will not continue in a pissing match of name calling and personal attacks. I have asked FUR on many occasions since if he can post without all the name calling. His reply was that I thought I owned the forums. Not really a response to my request.

"Thanks for the constructive criticism Mojo, oh wait there wasn't any. It was all name calling. What was your point other than to attack me with insults? There is nothing positive that can come from your post. "Meat Sac

MOJO and FUR seem to feel the need to add name calling and personal attacks for impact to thier opinions.

MOJO, you are not intimidating anyone here.

The fact that is getting lost is everyone's post is OPINION. Not matter of fact like MOJO and FUR think. Just because you make a point doesn't make it a fact.

Sup?
18th Aug 2001, 04:02 PM
Fur, thanks for pointing all this out to me. You have made me relize what an ******* I have been and I am very sorry. I am a tree so please forgive me. I am sorry I posted in your forums, you guys obviously have a bond that can't be broken since there really isn't anything that is up for discussion. If one disagree's with any of the forum regulars they are immediately crucified. The really scary thing IMO is that the makers of this mod have selected such close-minded and combatitive people such as you to beta test this game. I look back at all this and think that I got exactly what I deserved. Hell, when I was 20 years old I thought I knew everything in the world and thought that my way was the right way period. I communicate with real business-intellectual people everyday and to think that I could get the same communication level from a 20 year old was my own fault. My only advice to you (like you would ever take it, LOL) is to try and open up your mind a little more and try to at least listen to other people's ideas instead of immediately dismissing them and going into a combative frenzy as you did to everybody in this thread that didn't have the same approach as you.

BTW...As far as the topic is concerned (Teamwork), I never disagreed with you in the first place. After being called a ****er and a dick (among a couple of the words you masked under*****) I responded as anybody would of.

Cpt.Cypher
18th Aug 2001, 04:03 PM
What I think Fur means, after much digging through the unpleasant comments being thrown around by all, I think he believes just one thing.

Why play Inf if you want frags? Yes Inf is fun, but frags was not the idea behind Inf. Now you want the Inf team to bend their idea to make you all happy (i.e keeping frags). Thats not right at all. Yes Inf could take a popularity hit with its current members but the team does not want to please the masses. As much as I know you all hate Fur, he is right about the teamwork issue. Not to insult you at all (i don't want to throw fuel into the fire here :D ) but you have missed the point of Inf. And by doing so you have made it MUF_SOB_INF. Hopefully you will see the idea and realize that teamwork is what Inf is about. Oh and to back the last statement I know that you tell us that you use teamwork over the pubs, but its not the level of teamwork that Inf is aiming for IMO.

Anyways, to say the least this topic has been interesting. Points made andost in a sea of flames should be the name.

Overon
18th Aug 2001, 04:06 PM
Overon likes pizza.

MMMM Goooooooooood.

The_Fur
18th Aug 2001, 04:14 PM
Sup Read Cyphers post and you may understand WHY i attacked you. As for my so-called closed mindedness, I am not closed minded, I have given examples on why all the other ideas do not work and why mine do. NOBODYActually came up with any arguements to say I am wrong. They just started swinging their big "IR OWN A S3RVER!!!1" crap around.


I communicate with real business-intellectual people everyday and to think that I could get the same communication level from a 20 year old was my own fault.
I do tech support and I also communicate with so-called "business-intellectual" people on a daily basis. And frankly i'd prefer to tutor on kindergarten over talking to them. Small children are easier to reason with then them.