Post or Main brush scale?
- Thread starter Starstreams
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Good question...
I always use main scale myself when scaling brushes, especially for large-scale terrains. Hopefully someone around here can shed light on what post scale does/means, & if there's any difference w/ main scale.
I always use main scale myself when scaling brushes, especially for large-scale terrains. Hopefully someone around here can shed light on what post scale does/means, & if there's any difference w/ main scale.
Hay whats up Alpha:
I emailed the guy that mentioned to use the post in his tutorial so I’m just waiting for a reply. Here the tut http://planetunreal.com/jaspos/terraedit/terraedittut.shtm
Other thing is, the tutorial says to make sure there are no squares. It says that the terrain brush must be converted into tri-faced polys “before” importing your mesh into the ED, but bastard_o’s terrain has lots of squares and his maps play perfect? So that’s another question I’m curious about?
I emailed the guy that mentioned to use the post in his tutorial so I’m just waiting for a reply. Here the tut http://planetunreal.com/jaspos/terraedit/terraedittut.shtm
Other thing is, the tutorial says to make sure there are no squares. It says that the terrain brush must be converted into tri-faced polys “before” importing your mesh into the ED, but bastard_o’s terrain has lots of squares and his maps play perfect? So that’s another question I’m curious about?
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Please tell me what the guy says in his reply to your email too... 
As for tessellating polygons (making them all triangles), I've done terrains without doing that, and haven't seen any abnormal level of BSP errors. I'm sure you'll get just as many HOM's/tears/collision errors/phantom shadows if you go through that whole procedure as you would without. If anything, having the renderer deal with more polygons (which tessellating does) probably strains it more, & may actually give you more BSP problems...
The only real use for tessellation is if you're going to be doing a lot of vertex editing to adjust the terrain in UED. When you move a vertex, every polygon that's "attached" to it needs to be a triangle, or you'll screw up the co-planar state of the vertexes that make up that polygon (unless you seriously know what you're doing), automatically creating a BSP error. So I usually tessellate the polys in areas I suspect may need tweaking down the line.
As for tessellating polygons (making them all triangles), I've done terrains without doing that, and haven't seen any abnormal level of BSP errors. I'm sure you'll get just as many HOM's/tears/collision errors/phantom shadows if you go through that whole procedure as you would without. If anything, having the renderer deal with more polygons (which tessellating does) probably strains it more, & may actually give you more BSP problems...
The only real use for tessellation is if you're going to be doing a lot of vertex editing to adjust the terrain in UED. When you move a vertex, every polygon that's "attached" to it needs to be a triangle, or you'll screw up the co-planar state of the vertexes that make up that polygon (unless you seriously know what you're doing), automatically creating a BSP error. So I usually tessellate the polys in areas I suspect may need tweaking down the line.
No prob, I’ll let you know I’m still waiting…
Ya I think I know what you mean about trying to edit them square quads, I tried it last night and I got a few black holes almost instantly, so I moved the vertex'es back and it want away. What amazes me is when you make a world or terrain brush too big and the textures freak out and stretch way out of proportion. Funny thing is, the brush wasn’t anywhere near off the main grid.
Have you ever had where the textures on different brushes are different sizes, and setting them all to #1-size dosen't chage them all? Maybe my Ed was just twitching last night. Another funny thing that happend was when I type in 1024x0124 for a square brush, and the brush was as big as the main grid, thing was huge. Its almost as if the Eds scaling system was altered by the terra brush I had imported.
Anyway, I made a 256x256 gray scale image and imported it into terra as 32 for the gridcale and 32x32 for them lower two fields, and then I resized the brush scale to 8.
Anyway, I'm just curious when you made Aztaca, did you use a colored image or a grayscale?
Ya I think I know what you mean about trying to edit them square quads, I tried it last night and I got a few black holes almost instantly, so I moved the vertex'es back and it want away. What amazes me is when you make a world or terrain brush too big and the textures freak out and stretch way out of proportion. Funny thing is, the brush wasn’t anywhere near off the main grid.
Have you ever had where the textures on different brushes are different sizes, and setting them all to #1-size dosen't chage them all? Maybe my Ed was just twitching last night. Another funny thing that happend was when I type in 1024x0124 for a square brush, and the brush was as big as the main grid, thing was huge. Its almost as if the Eds scaling system was altered by the terra brush I had imported.
Anyway, I made a 256x256 gray scale image and imported it into terra as 32 for the gridcale and 32x32 for them lower two fields, and then I resized the brush scale to 8.
Anyway, I'm just curious when you made Aztaca, did you use a colored image or a grayscale?
When you want to reset all textures to be normal-size on a terrain, just select the polys & hit one of the alignment buttons in the settings window (the one where you set scale). I forget what it's called, something to the effect of "reset alignment", or "unalign" or something. That resets all selected textures to default size/alignment, no matter what kind of scaled brush you have.
Another thing to remember, when you import a terrain & scale it before adding it to the world, the builder brush keeps the scaled setting you entered. So when you enter 1024 x 1024 dimensions, you're going to get a brush that's 1024 x whatever scale you gave the terrain. So what you should do is select the builder brush, then select "reset all" in the contextual (right-click) menu. That will reset the scaling & any rotation you gave the brush.
When you do a bmp heightmap, if you do a 256x256, then import it as 32x32 in TerraEdit, you'll only get a small 32x32 portion of the 256x256 heightmap you made, so you're probably not getting the full terrain you were planning.
For Azteca I actually used a colored palette, actually using the standard Windows 8-bit. That was before I knew what I was doing lol... Now I always use greyscale palettes, much easier to visualize with!
Another thing to remember, when you import a terrain & scale it before adding it to the world, the builder brush keeps the scaled setting you entered. So when you enter 1024 x 1024 dimensions, you're going to get a brush that's 1024 x whatever scale you gave the terrain. So what you should do is select the builder brush, then select "reset all" in the contextual (right-click) menu. That will reset the scaling & any rotation you gave the brush.
When you do a bmp heightmap, if you do a 256x256, then import it as 32x32 in TerraEdit, you'll only get a small 32x32 portion of the 256x256 heightmap you made, so you're probably not getting the full terrain you were planning.
For Azteca I actually used a colored palette, actually using the standard Windows 8-bit. That was before I knew what I was doing lol... Now I always use greyscale palettes, much easier to visualize with!
I would have never thought about the reset. Thank you!
I mean I do use the reset button a lot but didn’t realize that imported bushes hold their size.
Also, that makes perfect sense what you said about only part of a height map getting imported, I couldn’t figure out why only part of my picture was showing up, so thanks again!
By the way, I’m still trying to find out what the deal is with that Main/ and Post section in the scale properties. I’ve emailed a few people and also posted in the blue backgrounded Planet Unreal forum. Wouldn’t one of the INF level designers know who to ask. I would think that some of them guys talk to Epic directly, someone has to know? I know it's not deathly serious or anything, but you never know, it could be something that could be of good use.
I mean I do use the reset button a lot but didn’t realize that imported bushes hold their size.
Also, that makes perfect sense what you said about only part of a height map getting imported, I couldn’t figure out why only part of my picture was showing up, so thanks again!
By the way, I’m still trying to find out what the deal is with that Main/ and Post section in the scale properties. I’ve emailed a few people and also posted in the blue backgrounded Planet Unreal forum. Wouldn’t one of the INF level designers know who to ask. I would think that some of them guys talk to Epic directly, someone has to know? I know it's not deathly serious or anything,
but you never know, it could be something that could be of good use.
I don’t really know how to explain it, Hybrid explained it and I forgot to save it, Grrrrrr
Anyway, try going into the Ed with a cube which as been reset, or hasn’t been touched yet, rotate the brush a little and then change the Main scale while your watching the cube.
Now select reset-all on he cube again, and rotate it once more, but this time change the post scaling option and it will stretch and deform instead of retaining its shape. That’s the part I don’t know how to explain, it has something to do with the Ed’s coordinate system. I guess whan you transform with the main, it transforms while sticking to the brushe's X Y axes. Honestly I don’t even know how to explain it. I’ll try to figure it out more, but to be honest, I don’t think it really matters if you transform a brush permanently because it’s going to retain it’s sharp anyway. The guy explained it to me and I lost it, man dose that make me mad
Anyway, try going into the Ed with a cube which as been reset, or hasn’t been touched yet, rotate the brush a little and then change the Main scale while your watching the cube.
Now select reset-all on he cube again, and rotate it once more, but this time change the post scaling option and it will stretch and deform instead of retaining its shape. That’s the part I don’t know how to explain, it has something to do with the Ed’s coordinate system. I guess whan you transform with the main, it transforms while sticking to the brushe's X Y axes. Honestly I don’t even know how to explain it. I’ll try to figure it out more, but to be honest, I don’t think it really matters if you transform a brush permanently because it’s going to retain it’s sharp anyway. The guy explained it to me and I lost it, man dose that make me mad
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Ok, here is the deal thanks! to Blacksway, and also Hybrid
I'll just quote it since I suck at explaining things.
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MainScale is applied before rotation, PostScale is applied after rotation.
Imagine a tube. It points up and down the page and is 10 foot long. You want to make it point across the page and then make it 20 foot long. You rotate it and then scale it. UnrealEd applies these two actions in the same order upon the brush irrespective of which order you apply the actions.
Try scaling it first and then rotating it. If you make it 20 foot long while still going up and down the page, then rotate, you'll find that the result is a 10 foot tube going across the page which is twice as WIDE. (I think you'll find that UnrealEd always alters the PostScale values, and never the MainScale values, or is it the other way around?)
However the easiest way of sorting this kind of thing is to do one operation and then do a "transform permanently" and then apply the second operation. I doubt you would ever find anyone editing the values in the brush properties manually, except perhaps when you want to double the size of something exactly and then you just use main scale.
I'll just quote it since I suck at explaining things.
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MainScale is applied before rotation, PostScale is applied after rotation.
Imagine a tube. It points up and down the page and is 10 foot long. You want to make it point across the page and then make it 20 foot long. You rotate it and then scale it. UnrealEd applies these two actions in the same order upon the brush irrespective of which order you apply the actions.
Try scaling it first and then rotating it. If you make it 20 foot long while still going up and down the page, then rotate, you'll find that the result is a 10 foot tube going across the page which is twice as WIDE. (I think you'll find that UnrealEd always alters the PostScale values, and never the MainScale values, or is it the other way around?)
However the easiest way of sorting this kind of thing is to do one operation and then do a "transform permanently" and then apply the second operation. I doubt you would ever find anyone editing the values in the brush properties manually, except perhaps when you want to double the size of something exactly and then you just use main scale.
You just found one, or rather I found you. I only ever use scaling for terrain brushes from terra edit or decorations from milkshape. I always use the brush properties to size any other brush. I think you will find most good mappers do it that way too whenever possible.
I think that is exactly what he was saying also, by the way that paragraph is quoted from someone else
He said Quote: “except perhaps when you want to double the size of something exactly, you just use main scale.”
I think we all use it, but mostly on terrain brushes just as you mentioned.
He said Quote: “except perhaps when you want to double the size of something exactly, you just use main scale.”
I think we all use it, but mostly on terrain brushes just as you mentioned.
Ok, I’ve watched it in action and I know what’s going on now, here is the real deal, someone correct me if I’m off:
I’ll Use a cube as an example:
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When you type a new dimension into the Post scale box, here is what happens: The cube is being stretched on the old X Y Z axes from when before you rotated the cube.
another words the brush is using the coordinate system based on the axes from the brush before it was rotated
1. First picture is just a plain cube rotated before applying the post scale
2. The second picture is after applying the post scale
I’ll Use a cube as an example:
-------------
When you type a new dimension into the Post scale box, here is what happens: The cube is being stretched on the old X Y Z axes from when before you rotated the cube.
another words the brush is using the coordinate system based on the axes from the brush before it was rotated
1. First picture is just a plain cube rotated before applying the post scale
2. The second picture is after applying the post scale
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Ok, guess i misread it. Even when I read it now I misread it apparently because it still sounds like what I thought I read in the first place.
Oops sorry man, I didn’t mean it to sound like that I just wasn’t sure if you knew that it was quoted from someone I hope all this is making sense, I’m not totally sure if I even know what I’m talking about, I'm still trying to figure it out. I don’t know why but all my threads seem to get abandoned sooner or later
I just wasn’t sure if you knew that it was quoted from someone I hope all this is making sense, I’m not totally sure if I even know what I’m talking about, I'm still trying to figure it out. I don’t know why but all my threads seem to get abandoned sooner or later
ecale3
Sniper - May be harmful to your health.
sounds about right, but i haven't used main scale yet so i'm not sure. i've only used post scale.
Ya, main seems to retain the brushes shape, but it probably doesn’t matter as long as you Transform Permanently
By the way, where is that link with the textures, I couldn’t find it?
By the way, where is that link with the textures, I couldn’t find it?
Here is the Brush scale explanation: http://www.perilith.com/~lode/tutorials/qena.html#scale
Also at the bottom of the page at the link above, he explains the difference between PSP and PhotoShop in relation to some of the problems people are having with getting masks to work in the ED. It’s a great site!
Also at the bottom of the page at the link above, he explains the difference between PSP and PhotoShop in relation to some of the problems people are having with getting masks to work in the ED. It’s a great site!