turn rates with scopes... uh-oh

[yurch]

Heres something of interest...

The turn rate for ut (and inf, so far) is based on how far you are zoomed in...

Now the question of the day is...
Should we keep that the way it is?

If you keep it on...
Scope users can easily make more sensitve shots... (not realistic, ill explain in a moment)
Its harder to turn, while zoomed.

If you turn it off...
Scope users have a harder time making shots (although not harder than iron sights)
Its easier to turn, and may encourage the already rampant use of it in cqb. (or not, as the increased speed will make things awkward, and the smaller viewcone might actually start to "hurt")

To see what i am talking about, take a psg or other scoped rifle, and move from one side of your mousepad to another. now do it with the gun raised. Your character will turn a shorter distance.

The major problem i see is this:
While making a long-range shot, the SLIGHTEST change in your rifles movement will throw off your aim. If you are standing up with a rifle, even the wind changing direction may mess you up.

So why is inf making it easier to aim at long ranges (by steadying the scope)?

in my opinon, this is giving a unrealistic advantage to scoped weapons. (this might be the source of its rampant abuse in cqb :) )


"editors" note: i use a joystick with no deadzone set, to make things more "interesting". Even with controlled breathing, i can never hold the rifle completely still. It's a fun challenge, and yes, it has gotten me killed. But i can make really sensitive shots :P

[R-Force]

I agree, it would require much more skill to snipe if the sensivity was not adjusted because you are in zoomed mode... I support that idea.

[DarkBls]

Yes !

[LordKhaine]

That would go a long way to balancing out the scopes.

[DredDamo]

Neat idea! *bump*

[L]-Damodred

[Draco-1]

I disagree. ANyone shooter worth his salt will kneel/prone when sniping. Doing this, you have much better control of the rifle as you can limit your movements.

I suggest this, (and I hear it's currently impossible with the UT engine :( ):

When standing, zoom shouldn't effect the sensitivity. The gun is free-floating on your arms extended infront of you.

When crouching, Zoom should moderately effect sensitivity. You can prop the gun with your elbow on your knee, or on an object infront of you, greatly steadying the rifle.

When prone, zoom should fullly effect sensitivity, but your field of fire is greatly reduced. No spinning like a top on your belly like we can now. And we should not be able to aim straight up or down. When prone, your arms form an almost natural bipod to steady the rifle.

Though, the best balance for scopes is to know the common sniping angles and stay out of them! Though personally, I love counter-sniping. :) That's the best balance of all.

[Morgoroth]

This will make the scopes pretty useless, unless everybody buy the 56th generation of optical mouse on the Unreal 29 engine.

Think about this : Even with this reduces sensibility (in fact this reduced speed), some people complain that the mouse jumps when using a scope. Imagine what will happen if the sensibility was the same with and without the scope. Since Unreal only changes the moving speed and not the resolution of the mouse input, it will massively jump and make snipping impossible..

[R-Force]

This is a coding problem...

[Kisen_K]

I kinda like the idea...

[TheSniper]

Then you can take out the sniperrifles form INF, because they will be totaly useless.

[R-Force]

Not at all. Zoomed scope would have no adjustment right away BUT the sensivity could be adjusted by the breathing system. This would make the breathing system useful AND make all thoses cheap instant sniping very difficult to do... Without the breathing control, the scope would just act like a binocular on a rifle...

BTW, it is a myth that laser mouse are much better than standard mouse. Sure, they don't need cleaning and can do very sensitive movement, but you can't do very quick movements (they tend to not respond very well) and if your sensivity setting require you to lift the mouse to replace it, the laser still think you want to move the mouse on screen (while you don't).

My cheap 20$ (CAN) mouse is very accurate and reliable, and don't need that much cleaning... There is a good acticle at gamespy about mouses, wich clearly put the pros and cons of each kind of mices....

[Snake13]

I've read some of those articles but it must depend on the mouse cause I don't get any of those problems. I have a Microsoft Intellimouse optical


but you can't do very quick movements (they tend to not respond very well)

This is not totally true. If you try to move the mouse really fast accross it will not respond, however it can do extreamly precise movement. I have my mouse sensitivity jacked up so that moving my accross my pad spins me around like 2-4 times (depends on the game). With a ball mouse this is does not work well but with the optical mouse's precision i can play and barely move my hand at all.

if your sensivity setting require you to lift the mouse to replace it, the laser still think you want to move the mouse on screen (while you don't).

I've heard this alot but my mouse stops responding after you lift it like 3-5 milimeters.

Plus i love how i can lean back in my chair and use the mouse on my body when surfing the net

[yurch]

please don't turn this into a "mouse war"

I have seen mods for unreal that have changed the turn rates for using certain weapons (i think) and if this is true, this shouldn't be a problem.

yes, and keeping the turn rate "as is" while prone is a good idea. Remember, i had those guys that are RUNNING around, looking through scopes in mind.

Did it occur to anyone that you can change your mouse sensitivity? (turn it DOWN for more sensitive aiming)
I have seen friends turn up the sensitvity so high that they can do 2 full turns while keeping the mouse still on the pad. They then use the scopes to "steady" their aiming(they can't hit diddly with iron sights). This should not be the case. perhaps we can use the controled breathing as also a modifyer of turn speed? If not, just turn your sensitvity down. No one really needs it to be that fast, as turning around in 1/96th of a second isint exactly realistic anyway, let alone going to help you much.

as i said before, i use a joystick occasionally, and the "faster" turn speed(i have the joy sensitivity turned waaay up) that i would get from the mouse does not help me at all.

try turning it down now. im sure it will help your accuracy.

[R-Force]

The big problem with sensivity is you cannot change it very easily (without going through all menus or changing it from the console)... I heard binding sensivity settings don't work very well either...

[Draco-1]

If your mouse is jumpy, please read this thread from beginning to end. It will fix your problem.

http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?threadid=46822

[yurch]

for those of you who disagree, aiming thru a scope is just as sensitive as aiming with iron sights (its the same gun!) Scopes were meant to give more detail/identification, not more control over the gun.
The more I think about it, the more i see this as a major "realisim" bug.
lets see if we can get this one approved.

[R-Force]

To get real precision, we should need the breathing feature... This way sniping would get more of an art than something everyone with a scope can do...

[TheSniper]

Comparing holding a sniperrifle in RL and using a mouse in a computer game...is it only I that notice that something is wrong here?

[R-Force]

"Comparing holding a sniperrifle in RL and using a mouse in a computer game...is it only I that notice that something is wrong here?

Well, i'm much better at holding a real rifle than holding my mouse ;).

[Draco-1]

unlike a mouse, you can use objects and stances to steady your rifle and better control your movement. Additiobnally, if you do not damp the movement when zoomed, you will discover that you need a EXTREMELY slow mouse to get precice movements when fully zoomed. This makes anything other than sniping useless.

Leave it as it, or do something similar to what I suggested above.

[St0rmcaller]

R-Force, Yurch, I could not agree with you more.

Yurch is right. There is a complete and total abuse of scopes throughout all of INF. Except for the hardcore iron sights gurus out there, when was the last time someone played using a rifle without a scope? In fact, the last map I played was flagstaff, and I was the only one who used a rifle (that could attach an ACOG) without one. SIG-551's and M-16's every, on burst, using scopes.

What does the team think?

[Morgoroth]

The probleme is that with the hardware and the software we have, you can't do without lowering the turn rate when scope.

Let's see, if your mouse moves 1 pixel on screen (1024x768) with each 1/4 mm on the mousepad, that means that each 1/4 mm moved on the mousepad, the mouse reports a movement to the computer. If you keep the same turn rate when scoped with for example a x10 scope, each time the mouse moves 1/4 mm on the mousepad, the mouse will move 10 pixels on the screen. This is why we would all need 153th generation optical mouses : so that it will report to the computer movements as small as 1/40 mm.

So if you don't reduce the turn rate while zoomed, you will make the sniping impossible. The solution (which is a BAD solution), would be to map 1/4 mm move to 1 pixel move while zoomed but this will make the game unplayable because of the very slow turn rate.

[R-Force]

Hey, i'm an iron sight gurus :D. I use a plain M-16 most of the time... I do make quite a few kill with it, even in large open terrain ;).

Morgoroth, you can have the best optical mouse around, it won't do a squat in the game. To have more accuracy you have to turn down the sensivity.

The best would be to have special hotkeys for sensivity so we could change it at will during the game for cqb or long range sniping... Well, for game ballance it should be fraction of the general setting we have, or else some players would make extreme settings, this would lead to hardware supremacy...

[yurch]

I wanted to recreate the almost incredible frustration that could happen while taking a fast shot from a distance.
Try it. IRL, its feels almost impossible.
I would not mind leaving the turn rate "as is" while prone(maybe crouching too), or leaning the gun against the wall? The "stance" mentioned before has to occur while standing still. This change should have the most effect on the run'n'gunners, not the cautious sniper. For those of you who are snipers, relax. this just means that the puny fools below you who don't have your patience wont be able to fight back. The reason snipers are feared the most is that if you DO see one, he has already drawn a bead on you, and you don't have time to calculate a bead on him.
I assure you, within a week, the players will have figured out how to use it. They complianed about the free aiming style...The l33t ones can hit you from across ep with a pistol now.

If you READ draco-1's little link, fine movements should not be a problem... ive tried it myself.

And if your hardware is a problem, you could spend the 40 bucks that you saved NOT buying infiltration...
Almost any game i have seen has given better hardware the advantage. (i sure am not gonna trade in my 500mhz anytime soon, or the 333 i use occasionally, running in clear&crisp 800x600) Is someone going to suggest that cable has an unfair advantage over dial-up?

[yurch]

i know this sounds wierd, and it opposes draco-1's mouse fix...
I am happier with turning up the windows mouse speed and turning down my unreal mouse acceleration. I can actually hit bots from across ep with a pistol now... (provided i can SEE them, with my crummy res) It takes a second to factor lead and such, but still, i couldn't do it before.
this scope thing may work afterall.

[Murphy]

I like the stance based turn-rate idea, as espoused by Draco-1, but for another reason. I am forever amazed and annoyed at people who flop prone in a firefight, and then manage to find the time and opportunity to breakdance while imitating the Last Starfighter's "Death Blossom" killing all targets in the vecinity. Did they pay for this ability with a bulk-balancing Boombox, (5 bulk, 300 dollars in the "misc" equipment menu. Missed it did you?) for Pete's sake?

By all means kill the scope-enhanced sensitivty while moving in any stance. Make people wait in place a few seconds, with less time required for those crouched rather than standing, and less time for those prone rather than crouched. Add increased sensitivity for prone use of a weapon with a tripod attachment.

Oh, and about burst use of weapons with scopes; I routinely use the burst fire on the Sig with my scope aiming. I do not use the scope while running & gunning when I can at all avoid it (occasionally I hit the wrong button, and that usually gets me killed in short order), but the burst fire is very deadly. Generally speaking, I suck at aim, so I can't count on head-shots with semiauto fire or a really good double-tap to the torso which may not take out the target. So instead I use burst fire, aim lower-center of mass, and let the recoil walk the fire up. It's effective for me, and 90%+ of the shots I take through the ACOG are with me at crouched. If I have to shoot while running around, that's what auto fire and the Lord's prayer are for.

[yurch]

I wish we all played like you do. We wouldn't have all these ridiculous problems.

[Murphy]

Thank you, Yurch, it's not the first time I've heard that. You see, I'm a fairly easy target, and with me on the other side, it's easier to get a kill. :D

[R-Force]

Hey, i kinda play this way, exept i no longer go prone anymore (i feel it's too bogus and unfair). But i'm quite successful, not a badass but still a worthy soldier. I avoid running and gunning, i don't use a scope unless i'm playing in a very large map (i use a sniper rifle then), i don't use the prone bug etc...

Hey, i even got a few newbie to ask me how the heck i was so good with my puny unscoped M-16 without grenades...

[yurch]

i have to admit:
i run and gun (sorry)
Its just something i picked up.
Thats one of the main reasons i am so for limiting it in the first place. I see the advantages of this unrealistic gameplay first-hand.