View Full Version : WE NEED YOUR THOUGHTS
15th Aug 1999, 12:00 AM
OK, the time has come when we are starting to plan Infiltration 3.0... what stuff to keep, what stuff to get rid of, what stuff to add. So, we want to hear from you guys. Here are some major questions plaguing us:
1) Infiltration Deathmatch: Keep it or lose it?
2) Infiltration Standoff: What would you change about this mode to make it better?
3) Infiltration Classic: What should be done about this mode? It is unbalanced, and needs to be changed. We are tossing around ideas about an 'execute the leader' mode where each team would have to both protect their own leader while trying to assassinate the other's. A twist on CTF. If we go with this, should the "leader" be AI controlled, or an actual player?
4) Any particular weapons you'd like to lose?
5) Any particular weapons you'd like to see?
6) What should the two teams be? A tango/SEAL setup is an idea.
7) Any other suggestions?
That's about it. Please reply to all these questions, not just one or two. Here is your chance to make a difference.
Infiltration Development Team
[This message has been edited by Catalyst (edited 08-14-1999).]
15th Aug 1999, 01:49 AM
Okey, I think what u guys do at inf is increadable! Please don't take away Deathmatch. I'm the only person I know that plays inf and playing clasic and standoff botmatches sucks, if u know what i mean.
Secondly, I'd like to see a
1. .50 cal mag Desert Eagle
2. Uzi with and without silencer
3. A few more machine guns, just for
variety's sake. Maybee on with a
bigger clip like and AK-47 with a
50 round clip, or something
4. A granade launcher that holds 8
rounds. Like the ones with the
5. Proximity mines that stick to the
6. Flame thrower
7. Someone should make a skin that
looks like a millitary uniform
8. A knife
9. Being able to lie in the prone
position, and kneel on one knee
10. Cluster bombs - since it's almost
impossible to hit someone with a
11. bullet broof vests that offer no
protection if shot in the arm or
12. Lastly, I don't like it when u
shoot someone in the arm four
times and they blow up. Maybee
Just a bloody arm or the arm blows
off. (less carnage and more like
puncture wounds and blood:}
Sorry so long, but u asked for suggestions and now u got them. You guys keep up the good work, it doesn't go unappreciated
O.K., here're my thoughts:
1) There're too many players who love tho good old DM. I'd keep it.
2) I don't like the idea of weapons laying around in the area. It'd be better if one win or at least one kill would give the player some credits/money or sth. like that. With this money he could buy some weapons in a menu. (I think this is like counterstrike for half-life, i don't know. I've never played this)
3) The element leader should be human. I know they're trying to improve the AI for Unreal Tournament but I don't trust them too much. If the AI will be good enough then it'd be the best if you could choose whether you want to play the leader yourself or not.
The idea of killing a leader is quite good. (But I don't like the expression leader. A VIP, the president of a country, or sth. would be better.) The leader shouldn't have too much possibilities to defend himself in order to make the 'bodyguards' pay attention.
Oh yeah, I forgot: If the VIP will be human It'd be boring for the player if you just had to survive. Maybe a checkpoint should be reached, the enemy base for example. And maybe only one team should have this VIP and the other team would have to kill him while the bodyguards have the order to protect the VIPs life. (Is this sth of team fortress classic???)
4) I don't like the M16 very much but the idea of a midrange rifle is good. The M4, the HK G36 or the fa mas would be a good replacement. (My favourit is the fa mas because of its bullpup design)
5) My must-have weapon is of course the HK G11. A melee weapon would also be nice but not too much unmilitary. A combat knife would fit good in this mod. Then the Beretta 92F could be made stronger. It should be as strong as it really is. (Don't make weapons too weak. Remember: Buying weapons if you win, that means not buying weapons if you lose. Losers must have a chance to kill the enemies or the team that has won the first 3 matches will dominate the whole game)
6) Seal Team 6 (! urban models please !) and Tangos are a good idea.
From these military/swat and tango/civil models it's still possible to create some more skins so the idea is just right.
7) The claymores should have the original size.
Byuing attachable items from the menu I mentioned above. Like an ACOG 4X scope for the M4 (if you choose the m4) Attaching a flashlight on the benelli is not that easy that you can just put it on your weapons in the AO.
[This message has been edited by Neo (edited 08-14-1999).]
15th Aug 1999, 02:09 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions! Ok- let me size up your responses.. *this is in response to farrp*
1) the desert eagle is a great weapon, and is a contender for a second handgun.
2) an Uzi is also a contender for the SMG spot.. curious tho- why do people want a weapon with and without a silencer? What would be the purpose? I'd appreciate some feedback on that one because a lot of people ask for this option..
3) We're looking into different options for machine guns as well.. We'd also like to get a heavy machine gun in there at some point.. like the M249.
4) The only serious grenade launcher that holds more than one grenade would be something like the Mk-19 which can fire like 400 grenades a minute.. needless to say, it's a mounted 'turret' weapon.. If we do a weapon like that, it will be something that the level designers can plug into their maps as a turret weapon. If someone knows of a grenade launcher that is handheld and is similiar to what farrp mentioned, let us know.
5) The only kind of explosives that we might have stick to walls would be C4.. we're not going to get into any high tech CIA type stuff.. If we can figure out a good way to make a realistic trip-mine we may do that.
6) flame throwers would be cool.. especially a realistic one that shoots flames 20 feet or so.. and leaves a burning trail.. another possibility later on
7) when we create our own player models specific to Infiltration, we'll make sure the uniforms are more realistic as well.
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~unreal/modcentral/html/shades.gif a melee weapon will be available for version 3. Right now we're looking at which weapon to use, or possible have a choice of 3 or 4 that the player can pick from their options menu.
9) The prone position will be modeled in for version 3
10) There's no such thing as a cluster bomb weapon, unless you're talking the 700-750lb types that fighter aircraft drop from the sky. In which case airstrikes could be possible later on too.
11) vests like you describe will be available for version 3 or later..
12) when we have our own player models, you won't have to worry about arms blowing off from an M9 or even M16.. we'll save effects like that for a grenade or mine.. the models will have realistic reactions to damage types.. We'll also mess around with blood splats and pools for some added realism.
Thanks for your comments! keep em long if you have to!
[This message has been edited by Warren (edited 08-14-1999).]
a m249 minimi
an SD attachment for the beretta, the subgun and the midrange rifle.
Another subgun!: The HK SMG2 because they were made only for an unnamed military team. The MP5/10 is too normal and has nothing special. (Warren has got some pictures from me)
15th Aug 1999, 02:25 AM
Ok- now here's a response for Neo's post - BTW- thanks for the comments-
1) So far it seems people want to keep DM- make sure you make yourself heard over this topic!
2) We'll be playing with the ability for a player to choose which weapons he starts with. We'll try to make it as configurable as possible, whether it vary on player class or a weight system. As far as buying weapons go, we'll have to see.. because what you described is just like Counterstrike for HL..
3) We'll see how good the AI is in UT.. if it's descent we may at least allow the player to choose to play as the leader or let a bot do the honors. As far as how this player functions, keep those ideas coming too- we can expand on this in many ways.
4) In our mod, we can't really make much of a difference between the M4 and M16 as far as how it functions. Right now the only real difference would be weight and the different pieces you can add onto the gun. The G36 would be a cool weapon.. but we won't replace the M16.. we'd just supplement it with another.
5) I appreciate the G11 too. It's got a good chance of making it into version 3. As far as weapons go, we'll be able to balance them better once we have our own player models in there too. The current handgun could stand to be a bit stronger, because you're right- if we have any kind of 'system' to aquire weapons, this one would be the cheaper and shouldn't be as weak as it is.
7) The claymores will stay the same size.. it's much bigger than real life, but I've seen how small they are and it'd be too unfair.
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~unreal/modcentral/html/shades.gif Attachable items will have to be limited. Reason being, since we already have quite a good-sized mod going, if we add all the animations neccessary for all the little extras, it could get overwhelming. If we develop Infiltration into more of a TC, than this would be much more reasonable. Some things like the Benelli flashlight will be 'standard issue.' As would be a bayonette if we added in the G11..
Thanks again for your comments!
15th Aug 1999, 03:44 AM
For a pistol, I think the Dessert Eagle wouldn't be your best choice, its used in very few armed forces for a good reason, awkward to use and not fast enough for accurate "double tap" shooting method. I'd prefer something smaller than the beretta, a P7 or Glock 26.....
Maybe its just me... but I really find the AT4 inappropriate (see my AT4 thread)... maybe in DM games where people are running around going nuts.... but not in a serious "standoff" simulation...
I'd really appreciate a heaviER machine gun.... no M60 or anything but the standard M249 SAW would be great... especially being able to go prone on big outdoor maps...
My 3 cents
15th Aug 1999, 03:44 AM
(pressed back... GA)
[This message has been edited by profit (edited 08-15-1999).]
I also think the DE is not a good choice for the same reason. Too FAT
The problem with the AT4 could be solved easily:
A menu in that you can choose the weapons (only 2 or 3), attach things on them and choose items, like the flashbangs, the mines and of course additional ammo. The items you may choose are of course limited and the more things you carry the slower are you. This possible sollution gives every player the opportunity to set up his favourite character: a fast scout with silencer, a heavy weapon guy with lots of ammo and a heavy machine gun and so on.
This would be just great.
Warren? What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Neo (edited 08-15-1999).]
15th Aug 1999, 04:01 AM
Definately give the two teams identities.
Certain law enforcement agency vs a bunch of different criminal type persons. Terrorists, bikers, gangsters, even LA type african american gang bangers. Kingpinesque style, everyone knows what I mean.
On the law side, FBI, DEA, State Troops, SWAT, SEAL, heaps of options.
Anyway I'm out.
15th Aug 1999, 06:28 AM
1) No opinion, don't play it.
2) Radio detonated explosives, like C4 as a weapon not a pick up. Claymores can be left out.
3) If the leader is human who gets to be leader? The leader should also start the round armed with the new Robar.50 BMG as well as the M9.
4) Loose the frag grenade its just too weak
5) A non-portable/trailer-mounted heavy machine gun for base defence/boarder patrol. A limited amount of ammo (ammo not found anywhere in game) and a limited arc of fire. An armoured bucket for the gunner.
(For the Blue team only)
6) SWAT vs. Terrorist.
7a) I'd love to see hostages to work around whose death causes the loss of points to the person who shot them if that person was the on the SWAT team. If a Terrorist kills a hostage then it could result in well, nothing... thats what terrorists do! It just means the SWAT guys dont have to worry about shooting the wrong person. In order for that to work it would mean incentives for the highest point scorer.
7 http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~unreal/modcentral/html/stare.gif I'd also like to see the SWAT team more tactical equipment available to them (incentives). Night vision goggles better than ordinary vision amplifiers, cams to suit the enviroment, binoculars etc...
7c) A non-leathal weapon to avoid killing hostages but useful enough to stun/slow bad guys. Tasers, bean-bag rounds, stun baton (as a melee weapon). Damage could recover over time and no first aid kits could help.
(For the red team only).
I understand if some of this might be imposible but Im kinda new to this and just thought it would be nice if...
I just hope this is evenly balanced.
15th Aug 1999, 02:28 PM
Wow.. lots of good ideas. I don't like the purchase thing, though. I don't like the thought of this becoming some kind of RPG or something. I like the idea of a menu where you create your character. You chose what guns (limited) you start with and items, and you stay with them unless you come across a dead body with some other guns. This seems cool, it would make it more of a tactical game because there would need to be one of every type of player to get a particular job done.
Idea for pickup item: cameras. Surveylance cameras that could be placed around a map so that you could defend a post. What do you think?
[ jedi.catch ]
15th Aug 1999, 04:45 PM
cameras could be great.... how to monitor them though?
have someone in a van with a 4 way split screen?... ala 'Enemy of the State'
15th Aug 1999, 05:17 PM
1.I never play INF_DM so no opinion.
2.The ability to sprint for short bursts(yeah I read the thread already...)
3.I like the play for points idea, I also like the idea of picking a Primary and sidearm(like DELTA FORCE) at the start of the game and using those weapons only throughout the match. If you want different weapons it counts as a negative frag to switch and in STANDOFF you have to wait for the intermission to respawn. It might even be cooler if you weapon choices varied depending what Team you were on.
5.Any suppressed pistol, M1911A1, HK USP, CZ58 Skorpion. .357 or .38 Special Revolver. Beretta Mod12 SMG, FN P90, PPSH-41, MAC-10, UZI. AK-74, L85A1 IW, M4, Mini-14. Double Barreled 12ga Sawed-Off, Rem-870, Ithaca Roadblocker. M21 or WA-2000. M249, RPK-74, MG3.
6.SAS/Tango, SEAL/Tango, Secret Service(w/president)/Militia, SWAT/Gangers.
7.Don't quit, it is a fantastic MOD.
Oh Great... another Mac
15th Aug 1999, 06:32 PM
It's me agian!
The granade launcher I was talkin' about has a revolving 8 cylinder magazine. Like a pistol but much bigger like an old 'tommy gun' magazine. The first time I saw one was in OO7 for the N64. But I know they are a real weopon because i've seen them in war movies, and if i'm not mistaken I think also in the old movie 'Preditor'.
Anyhow, I realize your emphasis is on realism in inf. I applaud that, and think this would be a 'cool' addition to it. Although initially you would think an 8-shot granade launcher would be too much fire power, thinks could be done to make it work. For example, after the 8-shot mag was empty, it would take as long or longer as the shotgun to reload. The semiauto feature of the gun should be A LOT slower than the shotgun, but still faster than the single shot launcher. (maybee 1 shot a second) Also, the weopon placement for the launcher should be rare, one per level. And the re-appear should be like every 2 minutes or so. If you don't like my idea, its cool; if you do I can't wait to see it.
One other thing, The M16 needs one of two thinks, or both. Either a grenade launcher under the barrel, (I know, enough about grenade launchers) or a small scope on top. Some people like to snipe and others like the explosive ability. But I think, both would be great.
You asked me why I thought you should make a silenced and none silenced version of the same gun. I'm not really sure, but i'll try to explain. A differant look is nice sometimes, although it's the same gun. With surpressed you can sneek up on someone, while shooting, and they would just notice the bullets wizzing by there head but not know where it was comming from. Bottom line, its just nice to have a choice:}
Here's another idea. In any other game besides deathmatch, you should choose you initial weopons before the game starts. Like one side arm, one meele, one main gun or rifle and a limited amount of ammo. Then, the in-game would consised of running around lookin' for the enemy, of course. But the only further guns you get would be the one off dead bodies that should stay visible until someone takes there weopons. the only weopon the killer would be able to take would be their rile or items or any big gun they had. Not there side arm or melee weopons. Then when you die and are re-spawned you should only sart with your side arm and meele weopon you chose pervious to the match. Some ammo sould be scattered about the level and mayee one or two major damage weopons, like the rocket launcher or somethink.
Boobie traps would be a cool idea. And how about some fire coming out of the ends of the barrels. (Shotguns, rifles, mayee even the pistol) And when the UT inf mod is out I would s#!t my pants if you could have duel uzis, pistols, MP5s, or what ever.
Just a few drunken ideas, and as always I LOVE your mod.
15th Aug 1999, 10:36 PM
1. Just because a gun is in a movie, doesn't mean it is real. No, it wasn't in predator.
2. a grenade launcher with the capacity to hold 8 rounds is too much. It is like the eightball. I like inf because no one has much of an advantage over others who chose different weapons. Each weapon has its use which may be better than other weapons being used for the same thing, but other weapons would be better than it at other things. I like the balance of weaponry. I like the idea to come in with certain things, you could really set up clan stuff that way or just a group of friends. I had an idea for the grenades. What if you made a quick key that would put your gun away, pull out a grenade, throw it when released, then go back to your gun? I thought that would be better than current, especially if your are planning on leaveing the grenades with a 5 sec. fuse.
Pickup items - would it be cool to have all pickup items be held in a pack which would only matter when you die, then the pack would sit with the gun beside the body and anyone could pick it up and have all your goodies.
Feigning - would it be good to make feigning more realistic looking? You could have the gun you were holding laying beside your body so someone might actually think they killed you and try to pick up your gun. I don't know how that would work, but it might be cool.
Pickup items - I think you should start in all modes with an FOV radar-type thing. I had mentioned this before. Your team would be visible wherever they were (through walls or anything) simulating realtime talking via walkie talkies. If someone requests help, their dot on the radar would flash red so everyone would know where they were. There could be a pickup attatchment to this that would show heat signatures so your could see enemies through walls for a short time maybe.
This may be hard but you could consider making a crude layout of maps apear on the radar as you go through the level, so after you explore a room, there is a room on the radar. if you explore the whole map would apear as a sort of blueprint with your teams dots all over it and enemy dots only in your FOV. If you did this, the radar could be the shape of the map and small so you and your fov would move around on the map in stead of the FOV staying still and everything else moving. I realize this is kind of difficult and would probably require people to make maps with more info that would be incorporated into the radar to make it work. Just something to look at.
[ jedi.catch ]
16th Aug 1999, 12:21 AM
I also posted this in another topic - a second part of this topic.
Attachable items are of course possible, but they add a LOT to the size of the mod. To put this in perspective, let's take an MP5 weapon. If you have the ability to add a scope AND a silencer, then we're talking 4 times as many animations. For example, the standard average set of animations for this weapon would be:
-Still_1 (hip shot with bolt forward)
-Still_2 (hip shot with bolt back)
-StillAim_1 (aim shot with bolt forward)
-StillAim_2 (aim shot with bolt back)
-BringUp (raise the weapon when selected)
-BringDown (lower the weapon out of view)
-Reload_1 (when gun first picked up, bolt is charged)
-Reload_2 (when out of ammo, clip is swapped and bolt is slapped)
-Reload_3 (when changing clips but not out of ammo)
As you can see this is 11 animations (granted, the still sets are only 1 frame) so if you add the capability for the weapon to have a silencer, than that would be another 11 animations. If you add the scope, that's yet another 11. Ok, now we have to make it so you can have both the silencer and scope.. another 11.. brings us to *44* sequences-- a helluva lot of animation sets for one weapon- now adding 4 or maybe 5 weapons with this ability, you've got a HUGE download for a mod. It obviously better be damn good for someone to take the time and download a 12mb or more file. This might be ok the first time, but what if we have bugs that need to be fixed? Now we're talking more downloading. I'm definitely not trying to shoot down the idea, just putting in perspective what that would mean for you guys. I personally like the idea of having more functions to our weapons, rather than the normal fire and forget stuff. And for me to animate these extras would be simple since I just have to attach a silencer and/or scope to the original animations. How does this sound? from an unbiased point of view, would you really want to download a mod that size?
As far as silencers go, I see why you think you'd want them in there from a realistic standpoint, but do you really think someone who attaches a silencer to his weapon will take the time to remove it? As I said above, adding that ability isn't hard at all, but it would really increase the size of Infiltration by quite a bit.
The idea for starting players off with certain weapons is a great one. I love the concept of being able to start out and choose which melee, sidearm, and primary weapon you'd want. Along with choosing grenade types, mines, healthkits, etc for a backpack type thing. I personally feel a weight system along with this could work too so the player can decide if he should carry more clips of 9mm ammo or another healthpack. This can go along with weapon attachments - things like scopes can add weight- although not much. Then if that player dies, he should be able to loose his backpack and ammo to be picked up by others. None of this spawning ammo either.. you show up to the battle and either scrounge or if everyone runs out, it's melee time!! This is a wonderful idea for some increadible realism. Now comes the implementation.. ie, coding. The whole menu system seems possible, but if you want to join a standoff server, you'll need to set up your player before you start. One option is if you've found a setup that works best for you, it can be a default thing just like your nickname is.. so you can simply jump into the standoff game right away. All this stuff will really depend on how good UT is. Sad to say, but it's in their hands... unless someone wants to fork over half a million for the source code..
For the radar type of deal, it unfortunately isn't very realistic. What *would* be though is true voice communications.. something that upcoming first person shooters really ought to incorporate into their games. For Classic mode though we can possibly add this radar support Jedi mentioned. But since there's no real way to know where your buddies are, we may have to compromise.. The thing about an overlay of the current map is next to impossible.. simply because either the level designer or one of us would have to create a top view of each map in an art program.. not likely to happen. that's just the first problem.. The infared type stuff is also next to impossible with this engine. It's sad too because I recently saw a screenshot of Sherman's night vision capability and it's increadibly good! (this is a mod for Half Life.)
Sprinting for short bursts is a great idea- one I wanted for our current versions, but Unreal just doesn't make that possible- tho I sure hope UT does.. that would be SO nice!
If UT offers descent support for dual weapons, then we'll probably make it so you can hold the gun with your left hand, grab a hand grenade, pull the pin with your teeth, then toss it. I think that'd be even better than having to switch weapons! Same could go for flashbangs or (if UT has a good way of doing it) smoke grenades.
Jedi is right about the whole movie thing.. For us to even CONSIDER a weapon, it has to be real, true to life. What your describing for a grenade launcher, from my knowledge, doesn't exist except for in movies and games.. If you can find some real pics of it on the internet, send them my way and we'll talk.. otherwise, we'll need more info than 'I saw it in a movie once...'
The feigning idea is possible. I could set that up in the animations of our new characters so they react differently and more realistically to 'playing dead.'
Phew- that's too much typin'. Feel free to comment on any of it though!
16th Aug 1999, 01:41 AM
Ok what about different weapons available to the different teams? Possible or not? Just a few extra weapons and the rest could be common to both sides.
Maybe if you use the idea of starting with a set of weapons then the two teams could have diffent combinations of weapons to choose from.
Will heavy weapons slow down your movement?
Is there a chance we could see a weapon with a greater rate of fire? Something with rotating barrels and belt fed ammo and a bone chilling whirrrr...
I'd like to see a gyro mount, bi-pod or even a tri-pod.
Finally, should there be a limit to how much you can carry
[This message has been edited by Billstein (edited 08-15-1999).]
I don't have a problem downloading a huge amount of files if the mod is great! Just split the files so people can download little file fragments of let's say 5mb. Maybe it'll be possible to patch only some of these files so you don't have to download the whole mod again. And if this isn't possible. I DON'T MIND!!!
I agree that I wouldn't start screwing the silencer on and off while I'm under fire. No, I think it's the best idea to keep the loadout as it was at the beginning of the mission.
I also agree with you ideas of the backpack, running, etc.
Try to make it real. It'd be great!
With the radar a kill is too easy! I've practised all that 'slice the pie' and 'room entry' techniques for months and now even a loser can kill me with a grenade launcher and this radar.
If you go to total realism (what I'd appreciate) leave the radar out, please.
16th Aug 1999, 04:53 AM
Hey thought i'd add my thoughts!
I don't like to ask for much, becuase I know it takes up alot of your time and it's hard work, but if you want to know:
Infiltration Deathmatch, I hardly play it, but you should give options to players. So I'd say keep it.
IMHO, Standoff is just fine. Running speed should be tweaked up juuuust a little. But anything that improves Standoff would be great.
I also believe the more weapons you carry the slower you run, but if you toss your weapon the faster you go, this way people don't get greedy when they take a buttload of HK's, shotguns, mp5 and m16's (and doesn't share only to die and to leave his team empty handed!!). But I also believe if you want to carry all that, there should be a type of backpack that enables all those weapons, more ammo but keeps current speed fast.
Something to replace the classic mod, instead of stealing a CD, A protect your leader would be cool. I think you should have the one protected be a real player. Not some AI (but that'd be good for a botmatch)
And if that protected player happens to be killed the round ends and it switches to another player on the team for the next round. That way people get a turn at being protected. (But an AI protected player is a good idea if your able to make some type of command for that BOT, like run away, follow, attack, defend, etc etc.)) Also if that person is now the protected player they should have automatic armor from start (and if possible limited weapons)
Make some kind of skin for protected players or something (VIP's, mafia type, army high brass, colombia druglord blah blah) ! =)
more skins to choose from, like the male3 skin has at least 3 skins to choose from.
All the weapons are great, the grenade takes too long to explode though probably due to realism. Make the pistol tossible. I'm not wild of the shotguns flashlight, it makes the item flashlight obsolete.
I'm not too sure about weapons, but there should be some type of armor, bullet proof vest or something to that point. A nice melee weapon would be good.. I also believe in small, medium, and large weaponry types.
Anyway this is what I think I have right now.
more to come!!
First off-Thanks for the great Mod, your time and dedication is greatly appreciated, you have made an amazing mod.
1 Please keep DM, its great to hone skills, preview maps and fun when you dont want to go on line to play-PLEASE keep it.
2. Id love to be able to hunt down and kill bots in standoff, as well as team play.
3. A CTF sounds great for Classic.
4-7 Above all keep the crosshairs, or at the least make it an option. There is a huge difference between real life aiming and looking at a screen, anyone who has shot a gun knows this. Simulation and reality are two different things, to do them both justice, you hvae to comprimise.
Lose the flashlight on the shotgun, make it a shoulder aim.
I really would caution you away from non-realistic/unused by the military weapons (you repliedto this issue already) The strength of the mod is the realism. Keep it tight, true and tactically oriented.
SEAL team gameplay would rock. I would love to see standard SEAL weapons: H&K USP, MP5, CAR-15, M-14, grenade launcher, M-60 (regardless of the next rev, Id love to see this in all its belt fed beauty) .50 sniper rifle, etc.
As you are wounded, Id love it if the character would show it, slow down, not aim as well, etc. Sprinting for bursts is cool (I read it too)
Prone shooting please. I liked triggering the claymore, while the proxymines blew themselves up. Could you get the toggle aim working in DM? Definetely a heavy machine gun. M-60 or Sawgun. New skins, more urban textures, as well as realistic jungle/outdoor play.
Long winded, and I apologize. The mod rocks, its all I play anymore, you are doing an awesome job, if 2.1 is this good, what will 3, 4, 5 be like? I get shivers just thinking about it!
16th Aug 1999, 06:02 PM
Along with losing the AT4, lose those damn crosshairs at least in standoff!!! Standoff should be more realistic, in fact that's about the only thing Serpentine has over Infiltration--it's aiming modes.
Oh Great... another Mac
Ok a couple of things I would like to see.
1. Number of weapons a player carries is limited by weight and effects stealth. ie if a player is loaded up with too much gear you can hear em clunking along and there player speed is slower where as a player with only a small amount of equipment could be quite stealthy and has the ability to move slightly faster.
2. I would like to see the player effected by exhuastion of some kind. So if some one decides to run for an extended period of time they start to breath heavy and lose aiming accuracy(aim weavers abit). Exhaustion would take a small amount of time to recover from.
3. In stand-off it would be nice if there was some sort of sprinting mode that would alow the player to run for a limited amount of time. This could be tied in with exauhstion and would be considerably noisy.
4. It would be really cool if the player could chose one specialty item and basic weapons before the match.
17th Aug 1999, 02:22 AM
(online stand off)
I agree Please drop the unreal crosshairs I hate looking at a big red/green mark in the middle of the screen. The only reason I use them is to stay competitive... I just know other ppl use them, its all about survival. Besides the M16 becomes more of a weapon of choice if you dont have a crosshairs (cause of the spray).
Also I back the idea of limiting the amount you can lug around. The heavier the weapons you pick the less you can have. For instance
You could be limited to 6 points of weapons large/medium/small weapons take up 4/2/1 points. If you're carring 5 or 6 points of weapons you'll be slowed down, if you're carrying 1 to 4 points of weapons your not slowed.
One more thing, it would be nice if you didn't have to reload after running out. It's so much faster to change weapons.
Ehm, it's in the options. 'Auto-reload (or sth like that) off'. Very useful for the shotgun.
Yeah, dropping the crosshairs would make the mod more realistic, I agree.
But If you drop them, you'd need to aim with the weapon. And didn't you say that this looks stupid with the mp5? (btw:could you send me a picture of this aiming position?)
It'd be a good sollution if the crosshairs appeared only while aiming. But then you'd have to add a disadvantage for the player like slowing him a little but (not too much) down in aim mode.
[This message has been edited by Neo (edited 08-17-1999).]
17th Aug 1999, 04:26 AM
Right now we have it set up so when you aim the weapon, the crosshairs appear-- otherwise there are no crosshairs.. which works rather well. As far as centering the weapons (besides the M9) to aim with, just trust me when I say it looks bad.. mainly because it doesn't seem very realistic anyway.. most people don't aim the weapon from in front of their face-- for obvious reasons.
We'll be fixing the problem which doesn't allow you to stop reloading the shotgun with autoreload. You'll be able to press the trigger button to stop the process. We'll also allow you to keep your settings for all three game modes (ie reloading, aiming, etc)
It looks like a weight system which effects the amount of weapons you carry and the ability to start out with certain weapons will be our goal for version 3. This is an excellent idea and sure to be a hit! We'll also look into the whole backpack idea in regards to carrying items and loosing it when you die. I'm also thinking that nearby explosions should not only damage you but throw you to the ground and cause you to drop the weapon you're holding. It'd be very realistic to also have this happen when you're shot a few times, but this would be too unfair.. at least with an explosion, you may be thrown clear or you have a chance to get away while the owner of the WOMD (weapon of mass destruction) switches to another gun to finish you off.
We'll try to make it so the weight system can effect the decibal of noise you put out as you walk. Also, hopefully we can vary the speed you move more than we can now to play along with the weight system and damage characteristics. If we can manipulate the speed well enough, than we can allow short bursts that can make you noisy. When you aim your weapon, we'll more than likely offer a button to walk slower rather than forcing you to walk slower. The benefits of slowing your movement are obvious, but at the same time, you may want to be able to 'clear' a room or building quickly to save time or get to a defensive position in a hurry- so you shouldn't be punished for aiming your weapon. However, weapons like the AT4 are heavier and should force you to slow down when you aim. I think what we can do to balance the speed while aiming is to cause the 'bob' of the weapon to increase the faster you move. So if you're aiming and decide to burst run for a sec, your bob goes wild and you make more noise- while slowly walking allows better aim and less noise.
What would be cool is hearing yourself breathe in the background.. which varies depending on your speed/weight/etc.. and when you aim the sniper rifle, you can continuously breathe in and hold your breath to take a shot..
I think we'll be keeping DM as well- since it really doesn't need much change, and it seems to be a favorite for enough folks.
The Benelli shotgun we use *comes* with the flashlight attachment, so that's obviously staying. This has a great tactical advantage, though we may mount a light on 1 or 2 more weapons. It might be great eye candy to have a flashlight attachment as a pickup, but first off, since we're trying to work towards allowing players to choose their weapons before the match starts, what good would it do to have it an option? If you've got the flashlight attachment already, than it really wouldn't make much difference if you used it or not-- and they really won't add that much weight anyway. We'll look into allowing you to aim the shotgun since, well it's made to do that too.. /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif
Well, we've got a LOT of options to make this a fairly realistic mod, but that means a whole HELL of a lot of coding for one man- Catalyst- so here's my chance to reemphasize our disclaimer.. these ideas don't represent what will be available in the next version, but an overall goal.. so be patient with us-- if we threw all this stuff in for version 3, we'd probably have a lot of bugs and not much to look forward to after that /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thank you all for the wonderful ideas and comments.. it's a blast having a forum like this and being able to read the thoughts of the wonderful fans out there!
17th Aug 1999, 10:50 PM
Thanks Neo for the reload thingy..
Farrp's idea about: body armor that doesn't protect limbs or the head is great!!! Hope you can use it. I hate shooting someone in the head 3 or 4 times with the psgrifle. Please ad an Army Helmet though. If you can and do use farrps idea of protected/unprotected hit locations, I insist that the "unreal crosshairs" (i.e. the green or red thing in the middle of the screen not the weapons sites) must be removed, as head shots from the hip are too easy otherwise.
BTW if you have can start with a selection of weapons can't you start with a bulletproof vest. It would be nice to see more types of armor as well.
18th Aug 1999, 03:02 AM
I like DM myself, can't hurt to keep it?
Only thing i'd like to see diff in standoff is the game speed just a wee bit tad faster. Maybe %.2. The lower speed idea is great, much more realistic...i do admit i did not like it at first, now it's great!
I'd like to see the grenades do some more damage...i don't think i have ever even nicked anyone with a grenade.
19th Aug 1999, 04:38 PM
Ideas for radar: I suggest changing the radar into a motion detector (anyone who has ever played Marathon will see what I'm getting at). Players who are moving will show up on your motion detector. Players who aren't moving, are not detected. This presents many tactical possibilities (yum yum). I also suggest reducing the range of the motion detector/radar to 2-5 meters. For those of us who don't like the idea of having _any_ kind of detection device, make it a feature that you can turn on or off.
Hand Grenade: The way things are now, the hand grenade is my least-favorite weapon. I suggest increasing the amount of shrapnel generated and/or enlarging the blast-radius. I also want the ability to pick up/catch a thrown grenade and throw it back at the owner just before it blows up. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~unreal/modcentral/html/teeth.gif
Other Ideas: I want to be able to knock a weapon out of someone's hands and maybe even use it yourself. Certain weapons would be easier to "steal" than others, for example, the AT4 would be easy to steal but a handgun would not. Just a thought...
20th Aug 1999, 09:24 AM
I think you should add a stationary machine gun and/or a gatling gun. Please, keep the DM mode.
20th Aug 1999, 01:28 PM
Stationary weapons will currently have to be prefab brushes that the level designer places into his level as a turret. We're looking into adding support for turrets into our version 3 code- hopefully to use machine gun weapons. What I'd like to do is create the prefab brushes myself along with the textures for them and make them available in our Map Depot section so level designers can grab them at any time- and with support for turrets weaved into our code, there hopefully won't have to be any extra .U files floating around. It'd be great having weapons like the Browning .50 machine gun and the MK-19 grenade launcher. Any others you'd like to see? Don't ask for unrealistic and/or nonexistant weapons.
As for radar, that's a descent idea to play with. If we did something like that, I'd like to go the extra mile and make the device a first person model, so along with the binoculars idea, you lower your left hand from your weapon, and raise the motion detector using it that way. Not every weapon could be used this way, like the AT4. I'd also think you'd want most weapons to still fire, just not as accurate.. and if you run out of ammo, you'd have to lower the device so you have a free hand. This would be a great concept, but would need some kind of balance- like making it fairly heavy or bulky so it either takes up a lot of room or too heavy to allow the same amount of equipment if you left it out. It also greatly depends on the kind of support UT has. Basically because what I don't want to do is create animations of the device or binoculars for EVERY weapon. I'd rather have one animation on every weapon of the left hand lowering and raising, then just one set of animations for the device or binoculars that can be used at any time. This just increases our download by a huge margin too-- esPECially if we do anything like what I talked about as far as added equipment for weapons. It's totally awesome having all these wonderful features, but a 20MB download is pushing it.. Just letting everyone know the pros and cons right off the top of my head.
Now, losing your weapon in combat.. What I have in mind so far is when you're close to explosions you go flying and actually land on the ground and you lose your weapon at the same time. I'd also like a variable for each weapon that tells it how suseptible it is to being tossed unwantingly. ie the AT4 would have a high chance of being knocked out of your hands even with a few rounds to the chest. If a weapon gets thrown from your hands, another one won't automatically appear.. you'll have to select it. And this thrown weapon will have to be picked up just like any other weapon lying on the ground.
Speaking of the AT4- if we're able to pull off the whole choose your weapon and equipment at the beginning of the game sort of thing, the AT4 would be something someone chooses to use probably right away or soon into the game.. like a first strike weapon, distraction weapon, or to simply clear a path. Maybe one guy gets a sniper rifle and the AT4 and hangs back near their starting point and awaits his team to return with the CD (or captured person if we use that game mode) to first cover his team with the rifle, then AT4 if it's necessary. This same concept can be used with the defending/terrorist team as well. Depending on the number of people you have, this could really be a good tactical move.
A bullet proof vest will also be included in the beginning when you select your weapons.. just adds to the weight! Tradeoffs for everything! It will however be possible to still hurt someone when you shoot them in the limbs or neck/head. We had this down in Force Recon too.
20th Aug 1999, 04:00 PM
i love almost all the suggestions so far..
i just have 2..
1) More standoff servers please!!
2) I want to spit on my enemy!....hehehehe
workin on more maps, INF_Suburb done..
Standoff rules the world!
20th Aug 1999, 06:39 PM
I'll only answer question 3 because it is the most important and will determine how much fun the mod can really be.
First of all the replacement has to have teams that are even to each other.Thats why classic mode more or less sux....its not fair teams (even).I like the idea of having 2 presidents or leaders on both teams.They should be escorted to the enemy side at a certain point.They should have bodyguards of course.Or how bout this,How about if in the beginning of the game your teams VIP (prez)automatically spawns in the enemy side in a jail cell,and your team has to go to the enemy base,pull a lever,free him,and then escort him all the way back to your base (all the while guarding him) to a helipad where if you made it that far you score.I think this is an even more creative and cooler idea.The VIP would have low health,and possiblly a knife of other weak weapon.
This could be like a more complex CTF style gameplay.The only thing is that the VIP might have to stay in his cell for a while.If this is a human player that might be tough for him.But at least he could report on whats happening at the enemy side.Since he can see outside his jail cell.He might even be a bot too....but I wouldn't mind playing like this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
As always the teams would have the same objectives,to keep things fair.
I think this would be a lot of fun.What do you all think? http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~unreal/modcentral/html/shades.gif
20th Aug 1999, 09:26 PM
My 2 cents:
I have played the new RealCTF (51) which is not out for the public, only on SOB's private test server and I just noticed (I hear this has been in since previous versions) that there is an admin menu where you can kick people from a list (very good for people with ascii names) and also a list where you can force people to change teams to even them up. These are sollutions to problems I commonly have as an admin. Would it be possible to implement them into Inf??
[ jedi.catch ]
21st Aug 1999, 01:35 PM
Good points.. The server admin options will definitely have to become a reality. The CTF gameplay is sometimes hard to balance when both sides don't have the same objective. We'd hoped the CD/Laptop combo would eventually balance itself out, but that seems rather difficult. Defenders have an easier time especially with the clock ticking, giving them points. With team play not an easy thing to accomplish for everyone, it's difficult for the attackers to get in and out with enough time to spare-- even with more people on that team. I think each side having a CD and Laptop would work, but would defeat the purpose or *idea* of the game mode... even if it's just an idea. I think if we had one team trying to capture hostages/VIP on another team, we could run into the same problems. One reason, I believe CounterStrike succeeds at this by placing multiple hostages in different locations so terrorists can't just 'hang out' or camp at one spot and still win. What would be increadibly cool is if we tied single player into it- what I mean is multiple objectives for a multiplayer mission. One team defends a fairly large installation while another team has to infiltrate and complete multiple objectives. Capture a CD or set of files, destroy an SA-8 SAM site, and make off with a hostage or two.. That would be pretty difficult with a small amount of players though. What Catalyst and I have to do for version 3 is play around with different game types to see which will work best. We'll take input from everyone, see if it's logical, throw it in, try different combinations, and find out what we come up with.. That in itself will need some serious playtesting! With all the new game types available in UT, maybe we'll catch some hints as to what works and what doesn't. Keep those ideas for game modes coming.. I'm keeping a list of all the good points so Cat and I can hash through them after version 2.5 is out. The other problem we have is I personally would love like 5 or 6 good game modes. But if UT has some of the same restrictions as Unreal, then we don't want too many game modes, otherwise we'll be interfering with other mods- which might be ok for some, but others will be frustrated with it.
Why did you add a time limit? Throwing it out would make a bit more balance. But not very much I agree. O.K., escorting a V.I.P. to an extraction zone while another team has to kill it (I've already posted this some time ago but you didn't reply to it) would be quite balanced.
For the hostage rescue:
it would be balanced if the terrorists wouldn't know from the beginning where the hostage is but the rescue team does. (Also in the topic 'replacement for classic'). I'd appreciate it if you read it and tell me what you think about it.
There could be more than one possible way to get the VIP to the extraction zone/helicopter so the tangos can't control every way precisely. I think this would balance it.
21st Aug 1999, 04:35 PM
Hmmm. THat's a lot of replys to a post.
For a start, you could shorten the fuse on the frag grenade, it's far too long and makes the weapon almost impossible to use.
How about an explosive charge, triggerable by radio. It'd be a lot more effective than the claymore or the proxmine.
Anyway, keep up the good work!!!
22nd Aug 1999, 02:59 PM
How about an assault on a motorcade?
Oh Great... another Mac
22nd Aug 1999, 03:49 PM
No on eliminating crosshairs. If you don't want crosshairs, then play Serpentine. I've played Unreal for almost a year now...I don't want to relearn how to aim my weapons. If I wanted that, I would buy a new game.
22nd Aug 1999, 04:22 PM
The frag grenade has a 5 second fuze- like the real thing.. we *can* shorten the length, just know we set it to what it is in reality /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
We're eliminating the crosshairs on any weapon held at the hip position. When you bring the weapon up to aim, the crosshairs reapear.. The reason we have them at all is because the machine gun weapons can't truly be simulated as aimed- ie you can't use the sites to aim with- This really works well and forces people to actually use the aim modes for their purpose.
22nd Aug 1999, 06:11 PM
I do play Serpentine, but I also think that Infiltration(StandOff) is far more realistic in just about every other way...
Oh Great... another Mac
22nd Aug 1999, 06:46 PM
Will the AT4 remain in version 2.5/3 ??
I personally find it out of place (ala my topic a week ago)
Thank you for responding
23rd Aug 1999, 12:18 AM
Yes, the AT4 will remain in 2.5/3.0. I don't see how it is 'out of place' though, it is commonly used in special operations for destroying large objects (tanks, planes, etc.)
23rd Aug 1999, 03:05 AM
"To destroy large objects" this game does not contain any large objects to destroy
On indoor maps? c'mon...
I'd suggest it be turned on/off with the artifacts and not put in standoff mode
Sorry for the bluntness.... I like the realistic features of this mod..... I hope it can become even more realistic in the future....
23rd Aug 1999, 11:54 AM
What I would like to see:
In player setup you chose your weapons.. a limit would be good. Pistol would be there all the time. I would get a shotgun (WITH light, if not with light attatched, then there would need to be a quick key for a light that would be in your equiptment, I wouldn't go into any sort of combat without a light), an M16-longer range than shotgun but not quite sniper rifle long, the .50 Robar /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif so I could pick people off from afar, and grenades. I think grenades should be there with the pistol, not an option. They are not terribly heavy and you should have a quick key that would put down your weapon, throw a grenade, then bring your weapon back after throwing. In levels, I would set everything to be replaced by AMMO, and not guns. You already have your guns, and you wouldn't get any different guns (with the possible exception of the rocket launcher) unless you killed someone for them. This way weapons wouldn't be randomly laying around, but ammo would. What do you think?
[ jedi.catch ]
23rd Aug 1999, 05:45 PM
Personally, I don't think that there should be ANY pickup items in Standoff mode...
Oh Great... another Mac
23rd Aug 1999, 11:39 PM
Ammo would probably be chosen at loadout time ala Rainbow 6, thus effectively eliminating all pickup items, save any special stuff that isn't available at loadout.
24th Aug 1999, 12:28 AM
I'm number 50 ner ner...
Anyway, I'll act my age now...
Um yeah on the ammo front, say two or three clips should suffice, plus the option of carrying extra on a bandolier *cough* Action Quake *cough*. I have seen it used elsewhere, and stops those annoying haphazard newbie players from spraying all over the place.
Didn't we have already discussed about a menu for choosing your stuff before?? Yep, we have!
I don't think it'd be good to have ammo lying around in the levels. It'd be better if you choose the amount of ammo at the beginning and have to survive with it. O.K., you can kill an enemy and get his ammo, that'd be cool.
And please don't allow the player to carry more than a primary and a secondary weapon.
primary, secondary, item slot #1, item slot #2. (as in Rainbow 6, btw: great game, could anybody make a map that looks like operation steelwind - the embassy in london?)
This would be REAL!!!
24th Aug 1999, 05:10 AM
Well, we didn't set specifically what the loadout menu will look like. This is still very much up for debate. Catalyst and I discussed this greatly Sunday night and got a good start on a possible concept. But that doesn't mean we won't take ideas from the community.
As far as ammo in the levels, the thought here is either we go all the way on realism or stay home, so no there wouldn't be ammo lying around, unless it's off a dead body or discarded weapon... possibly a level that has a weapon storage room or something, but we'd have to ensure the weapons/ammo there doesn't respawn and it alters the weight/speed balance.
At this point we'll deal mostly with a weight limitation and not neccessarily specific 'hardpoints'. For instance, a player should be able to trade hand grenades for more clips or bandage kits, etc. Or carry a handgun, shotgun, and mp5- but be much slower with that weight. Handguns and grenades also won't be a forced item. Really, the only forced item will be a backpack- meerly because I don't want to model characters with and without backpacks. (If Epic were smart, they'd add the capability for extras- for instance every model has a weapon polygon you add that represents where the weapon goes. They should add support for say a helmet or head device and backpack device- at least make it configurable for those making brand new character models.. anyway..) The player will be able to choose not to carry a handgun or even melee weapon to save on weight. They might suffer for it during the game, but it's at least their choice.
I would like to make it so if you use a second weapon or item such as a grenade or binocs, you don't lower your weapon- just make one hand free but keep the weapon visible.
The shotgun will keep it's flashlight. We're looking into adding effects for seeing the flashlight on the third person models.
The AT4 can still have tactical advantages (mentioned before) and no, it's usually not used inside- we just need to ensure the bots are smart enough to know when to use the damn thing! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As far as it destroying large items, that can simple be a level design issue. The LDer can throw in a destructable vehicle or wall or whathaveyou that can be better reached by a long distance impact weapon.
My optinion: Go for total realism and delete all ammo lying around in the levels.
24th Aug 1999, 08:34 PM
With regard to using the AT4 for blowing stuff up.
Level designers need to know how much damage the weapon they want to destroy the destructable item, can do. Say for example I want only the AT4 or possibly a grenade to destroy a wall, then as a level designer I need to know the damage of the weapon, so basically I'm asking for a guide to how much damage all the weapons do...
26th Aug 1999, 12:19 AM
Jack Porter changed max number of gametypes from 16 to 64 in UT, go ahead with your 6 gametypes.
1) It's for free.
2) Spawn pattern: Fireteam (spawn with your sidewing).
3) Classic: shift sides midway. Make the VIP move slow (75% speed).
5) Chopper bots (flying titants). HK: CAW,53,UMP,Mk23. Various AK/Chicom.
6) Keep it "The military conversion for Unreal".
Some penalty for long weapons indoor (even longer when aimed).
Bleeding and quiet death (is she dead?).
Better magazine management: keeping ½ empty, pass-along/discard 1.
Running, high speed - 0 accuracy.
Exhaustion and weight.
Remove movement slowdown when hit by bullits.
Real life armor models, unreals are mood killers.
26th Aug 1999, 02:44 AM
It seems as though people have spoken out in approval of the AT4 ...
although I still feel that it is out of place... (until movers like jeeps/TANKS can be implemented or it could realistically be used to break a wall..) I guess I'll just have to accept being blown to pieces by a heavy weapon every once and a while /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
just out of curiosity... what the AT4's Army recommended range? I figure most maps are about 300mX300m.... making the longest (unobstructed mind you.... ) shot approx. 425m.... Similarily the although the PSG is used at shorter distances in tactical ops but is rated within one MOA (minute of angle) and is capable of MUCH greater distances... not familiar with the robar so I can't comment on it..
My point in all this being... when UT gets the internet protocals working at a decent rate I'd like to see enormous outdoor maps (way bigger than even hill base and so on.. ) using long range weapons.... indoors, urban situations and so on would call for a more realistic load out.... could it be made so mappers can choose the weapons available to each team? (AKs and so on for 'terrorist' types and MP5s and so on for a special ops team going in to kill them...)
I'm really excited about the possibilities with UT http://trenches.igg.net/projects/previews/ut.htm
I know... allot to digest.... but thats my 3 cents
The Menu-thingy has already been discussed. I think it has a good chance to make it into V3.
You choose your weapons and items. The more you carry, the slower are you.
26th Aug 1999, 01:20 PM
The range of the PSG and Robar isn't really an issue since Unreal maps (and probably UT maps) can only be so big. The issue is the scopes. The PSG scope has a max range of 400m which is further limited by the fact that the scope is welded apart of the gun making it impossible to switch with another scope. Another reason why the weapon isn't in use much more around the world. The Robar scope on the other hand has a range of like 900m or more. Since we of course can't accurately display this in Unreal very well, we'll do our best math and come as close as possible- or at least make the max range of either weapon obvious (ie PSG will not be able to zoom as far as the Robar). When we add ballistics to the weapons for version 3, this will be much more valuable.
Enormous outdoor levels would be increadible, but what might really hamper this online is being able to stand on one side of the map and see all the way to the other side. That could be a hell of a lot of polys to generate- even with LOD. From the beta levels of Mike Young's BridgeTooFar map, I think it should partially satisfy this craving for huge maps! It's at least as big as HillBase if not bigger.
26th Aug 1999, 07:34 PM
Please let me have a list of the damage ratings of all your weapons, I need to know as I plan to implement destructable walls into my InF levels and as you may or may not know the damage when attacking a destructable wall in Unreal is not accumalative, it's one shot.
Your help would benefit us all...
Sorry so corny.
27th Aug 1999, 04:26 AM
Not a problem! If you haven't already, email me with this same question so it's sitting there when I get home from this little military stint.. 2 more days.. I'll be happy to supply the info for you.
27th Aug 1999, 09:21 AM
Even better include the information on the Infiltration homepage
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