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Keiichi
27th Mar 2000, 03:48 AM
I'm just wondering why more developers haven't taken a hint from all the SPECOPS/SWAT mods out there. It seems like every FPS has a realistic weapons mod, and 9 times out of 10 they're one of the prime reasons people buy the games. Counter-Strike is probably the sole reason that Half-Life is still as popular as it is, and I know for a fact that Infiltration has sold at least one copy of UT. And that's not all! UT has a whopping THREE weapons mods in development (Infiltration, Strike Force, and SWAT), all of which look first rate.

My question is: Why don't more companies make realistic GAMES? Shock Rifles and Viral Proliferators are fine, but it seems like every FPS on the market feels that it has to cram it's games full of exotic weaponry or no one will buy it.

Team Fortress 2 looks like a step in the right direction, and Decay (www.insomniasoftware.com) is showing promise, but that's still just a paltry 2 games amongst the hordes of FPS on the market. Oh well, I guess the old saying is true: "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself". Now...where'd my copy of "Game Development for Dummies" go? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Keiichi

[This message has been edited by Keiichi (edited 03-27-2000).]

ShakKen
27th Mar 2000, 04:31 AM
Because we generally don't get sued is some idiot kid goes and shoots a classmate. There are ton's of lawyers out there looking to make big bucks by blaming all this violence on computer games. Of course, Lord knows that that's a load of BS.

Catalyst
27th Mar 2000, 06:08 AM
I know...give us a publisher, lots of money, and our own office, and we'll start cranking out the realistic games for you! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Chris Robbers
Infiltration Programmer

Bad.Mojo
27th Mar 2000, 06:56 AM
Yep. Blame games. Blame the media.

This decade its Quake and Marilyn Manson and Gangsta Rap. Rewind ten years and it was Dungeons and Dragons and Metallica.

Its never actually the person's fault for going out and plugging somebody. No, point the goddam finger. It takes a finger to pull a trigger, not images or sounds.

Though I guess this is just another fine example of how we live in a consequenceless society where babies are as disposable as their diapers.

And, I swear guys! I'm really trying to get money for you! (well, not very hard, but believe it or not I'm poking around, seeing if I can get financial backing - looking at the criteria for it - i'm a little tagalong, I know =)

INF_Neo
27th Mar 2000, 10:25 AM
IMO they don't do that too often because it's too difficult for them. I've never heard of a company that interacts with a community as MODs do.
-> the community doesn't get the game it really wants

Or: it's easier to invent sth. new. It's easier to invent an ASMD than trying to create a perfect MP5.

Or: companies are dumb and don't even listen to the market

Mr. T
27th Mar 2000, 01:45 PM
Well, it’s nice to see that there are so many of you perplexed about this as I am. But here is part of the answer. Major game developers aren’t necessarily dumb. OK some of them are, but not all, and you have to remember it’s a business. I’m talking about corporate people, not the developers themselves. They’re out to accomplish one thing - making a profit. Well, that might seem like they should just make games based on realism then, but think about it. They know there is a large fan base for realism, but there is also a large fan base for sci-fi deathmatch craziness, so why change what’s already making them money. They also know, or are beginning to realize more and more, that mod development teams will use their game engine to make it a more realistic gaming experience for the other fans who are into realism. So they concentrate on putting together a good engine, and worry less about the game itself. Also, with sci-fi craziness, they don’t have to worry about the research and knowledge it takes to keep the game true to real life. They can make up any kind of crazy rules they want. And they don’t have to communicate with the community to see what they want, they can just go by last year’s figures. Let the mod developers worry about realism, and what the community really wants. It all means profit to them.

But it is starting to change. Look at the rainbow six series, SWAT, and TF2. Not to mention Delta Force and at least a couple others. The only real major success so far has been RS. And it doesn’t compare to Q3 or UT or the Duke Nukem games. So what does that tell you?

Well, I’d might as well express my opinion concerning the relationship between FPS games and gun violence, which is a big problem in the States anyway. It’s a load of crap. There is no relationship. A game doesn’t go out and procure a weapon for a 13 - 18 year old, give it to them, walk them up to someone and help them pull the trigger. It’s sad that it happens, but the solution is not in game prohibition. I deal with an 8 year old, and I don’t let him play these games, but he watches me sometimes, and I make sure he understands why I don’t let him play yet. I talk to him about it, and help him realize right from wrong, and using common sense. Kids can figure it out. They are not dumb. I don’t worry about him growing up to be a violent person, but I do feel he needs to mature into playing these games, and it depends on the kid. Hell, he’d rather watch cartoons anyway.

Young minds are a hell of a lot more intelligent than people think, and older adults need to start realizing this and start working with them, instead of thinking they can just keep taking things away from them and telling them what is best for them. People forget what it was like to be young. Hell, if anything, these games help you stay young, and bring old and young together. There are just a lot of kids out there that take high school, and other aspects of their young lives too seriously. You don’t realize until you get away from it and start to develop your own life, that all that stuff that you thought was everything to you, was a very small piece of the rest of your life. Let me tell you, it only gets better and better, if you give it a chance. I know it’s a lot more complex than that, but that’s why people point fingers at games and other things. Because that’s an easy way out.

But I look at it this way: For every dumbass kid out there who trys to kill his peers, there are thousands of kids that are pretty damn cool. This community shows that.

Whew! OK, I’m done rambling………for now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

INF_Neo
27th Mar 2000, 01:52 PM
>Young minds are a hell of a lot more intelligent than people think<

wow, the sentence of the day. I'll write that down

Chand
27th Mar 2000, 06:11 PM
For the record...

To say that, i.e., Half-Life only got "good and popular" when CS was created is very pretentious...

I played HL a lot...never played CS..and it's a very nice FPS. It won a lot of awards, including game of the year, without CS having anything to do.

Mods (specially realistic ones) make the games we play more fun ? Maybe... but I don't forget that Unreal and UT were great games before INF and its incarnations for each one.

Mods extend the game they're created for and give that game a new perspective. Sometimes a lot. But there's a long way from here to say that 'games only get good once there's a RL mod/conversion'.

Please...

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This is your brain...
THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON INF... (bold /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

thornz
27th Mar 2000, 06:35 PM
you also realize that the supposed "most popular" (or at least self claimed most popular) weapons mod for UT is U4E, a mod that lets you have a hand held P-47 thunderbolt engine, a freezegun, and an exploding doll

Mr. T
27th Mar 2000, 07:05 PM
That's a good point Chand. These games are good in many ways to start with, and whether or not a game is made 'better' by a mod, is only a matter of opinion.

Bad.Mojo
27th Mar 2000, 10:14 PM
Or is it possible that dev. teams are maybe not as in tune with what the players want as they believe they are? I mean, a player can say "I want true to life physics, character models, weapon models, vehicle models and ballistics", but ultimately what the developers dish out on the plate is what you're left to buy, and buy you will because you love games, all games, console games, pc games. Developers have this inherent sense that all game players (God help me for using this stereotype) are geeky, fantasy/sci-fi, sex crazed blood and guts lunatics.

Thank you, but I'll take my geeky tits and intestines with a healthy dose of today, game makers. Sooner or later they have to start listening.

Note: In no way am I saying todays games are crap. Unreal Tournament sold me on UT, not any mod (actually, it was the assault feature, I had been looking for something like that forever.)

Mr. T
27th Mar 2000, 10:28 PM
You might be right to an extent. I bought UT for INF. But I've played UT a few times, and it is fun, it's just not worth the money on its own IMO. But to a lot of people it is. I did feel however, Half-life was worth the money with or without mods. I don't know, it's hard to tell how people feel.

RS is cool though, and from what I hear SWAT is pretty sweet. Those are the type of games I really enjoy, and hopefully they will improve upon those in the future.

Corin
27th Mar 2000, 10:50 PM
Whether mods make a game "better" obviously depends on the definition you are using to descibe "better" at the moment of said description.

Ouch. This is going to be a long one.

Anyways, what I really would like to jump in this post with is this: Although there are loads of reasons why society is becoming more and more callous, the main reason IMO, is that we are letting politicians, think for us, and live our lives. This is very bad, because most politicians think that the average voter has the brain power of a parakeet. Think about it, Mr. X starts smoking at 18, is up to 2 packs a day by 21 and dies at 50 of lung cancer. So the government says to his widow, "Hey! You deserve $10 million! You have been wronged by the tobacco companies! Your husband, God rest his soul, was a smart, productive member of society who was taken advantage of by tobacco companies." And, you can apply the same thing to guns, alcohol, cars, and EVEN, McDonald's coffee!

And most people think about it and say, "You know what? You are absolutely correct! I was wronged by them!" Never mind the fact that anybody with an 80 IQ knows that smoking is bad for you.

And now on a totally different, yet related tangent, drugs and children. Why do we drug our children? Child A is 10. He daydreams, he is rambunctious, he doesn't like homework or school. Wow. Just like every other 10 year old right? Well, in todays world of "modern" medicine we like to give this "mal-adjusted" child ritalin. Sometimes I just want to hit people that give their children psychiatric drugs. How can you drug a kid because he would rather play or dream than do schoolwork? Drugs like ritalin and prozac screw with your mind, and are just as bad as marijuana, cocaine, or methamphetimines. I saw an ad the other day for a drug for "Social-Anxiety Disorder". I wanted to cry.

Mr. T
27th Mar 2000, 11:03 PM
That's what I mean. 'Better' is relative.

On the issue of drugs. I do agree with you that children should not be drugged. I think it's ridiculous.

I don't agree with you throwing all drugs into one huge category and labeling it "EXTREMELY BAD". Which is sorta what you did. If you want to do that, you should include alcohol as well, which has the potential to be far more dangerous and deadly than marijuana.

Keiichi
28th Mar 2000, 01:16 AM
I'll just toss in my two cents...

Chand: I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying Half-Life is a bad game. I myself love HL and still consider it one of the best FPS of all time. What I was trying to say is that HL probably wouldn't be as popular today as it still is if it wasn't for CS.

As for the whole children/drug issue, I believe a lot of Americans need to wake up and start taking responsibility for their own actions. A lot of people make their living by leeching off of everyone else. That whole lawsuit with McDonalds really pissed me off. If you're stupid enough to set a cup of coffee in your lap and then tear off at 60mph, then you deserve to get burned. The fact that she actually WON a whopping $2 million just added insult to injury.

I hate to bring up the whole Columbine shooting again, but it makes a good point. Two kids walk into a school and slaughter their classmates. Who do you blame? The two student? Their parents for not noticing the warning signs? No! You blame the video game industry for warping their fragile, innocent, robotic little minds. I've been playing violent games and watching violent movies for as long as I can remember, and anyone who knows me knows that i'm the nicest, most gentle person you will every meet.

The thing I find disturbing isn't the fact that those two students where into Goth/Industrial music, or the fact that they played violent video games (btw, who here doesn't have fond memories of Doom?). The thing I find disturbing is that two children could get ahold of that kind of weaponry, and the fact that no one, not even their parents or friends, noticed what was going on until it was too late. I've said it before and i'll say it again, violent movies and games aren't the CAUSE of violence in society, they're just a reflection of it.

-Keiichi

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If the past is an idea that can only occur in the here-and-now, and the future is also just a concept happening strictly in the present, is there really a past and future? Or just a continuum of present moments?

Bad.Mojo
28th Mar 2000, 04:40 AM
Corin, you're my hero. Hold me.

And on the topic of McDonald's coffee:

If its hot and I spill it on myself, I sue because they did not warn me.

If it is cold and I spit it out in reflux, I sue because they stained my car.

If somebody needs to be told that the STEAMING, WARM-TO-THE-TOUCH ****ING CUP OF COFFEE THEY JUST POURED OUT OF A DECANTER ON A GODDAM HOTPLATE IS HOT, I fear for society in general. I can't believe the courts actually let people get away with that.

Yiah, I'm suing Maytag cause I put my dog in the washing machine and it came out dead; they never told me not to use it on living things.

Which brings us back to the age-old saying: If you're stupid enough to drink Javex, you deserve to die.

Bad.Mojo
28th Mar 2000, 04:40 AM
Corin, you're my hero. Hold me.

And on the topic of McDonald's coffee:

If its hot and I spill it on myself, I sue because they did not warn me.

If it is cold and I spit it out in reflux, I sue because they stained my car.

If somebody needs to be told that the STEAMING, WARM-TO-THE-TOUCH ****ING CUP OF COFFEE THEY JUST POURED OUT OF A DECANTER ON A GODDAM HOTPLATE IS HOT, I fear for society in general. I can't believe the courts actually let people get away with that.

Yiah, I'm suing Maytag cause I put my dog in the washing machine and it came out dead; they never told me not to use it on living things.

Which brings us back to the age-old saying: If you're stupid enough to drink Javex, you deserve to die.

Warren
28th Mar 2000, 04:19 PM
I'm really impressed with how intelligent these conversations are about a fairly touchy topic. Granted, most of us a biased- because like you said, we've played 'violent' video games all our lives. I was the same way- played them since Wolfenstein.. but guess what, my parents musta taught me right because I don't have the slightest inclination to go kill those in high school I didn't agree with.

But there are a lot of people who have no idea about violent video games.. FPS games.. what they see is a game where you get to use realistic weaponry and shoot people until they die in order to get points to win a game to go to the next game and do the same damn thing over again.

Let's compare this to golf.. raise your hand if you think it's pretty damn idiotic to hit a small ball around a big basically wasted park with a small club to get it into a small hole with few strokes as possible? Yet you talk to a golf lover and they'll tell you all kinds of details that make the game so great to them. How much tactical skill is involved, how you have to think about every move, how it's actually a pretty good workout if you walk the course.. point is, it's all perspective.. same with a lot of terrorists who have an 'agenda.' They believe through and through or, lol- "balls to bones" that the cause they believe in is the true and responsible way.. yet, to us they are terrorists.

I don't sympathize with that extreme of a case, but it's all about keeping an open mind- which is what my parents taught me. Which is also why we love getting feedback from you guys. That's one of the things I look for in team members is that they can have an open mind to critisicm in their work, as long as the one pointing the finger has a little tact.

It's just easier to blame video games because in most people's minds, it's no better than satanic music and voodoo dolls. They don't know about games like RS, CS, Inf, etc- that teach you tactical gameplay. They more or less put you in the shoes of a dangerous job with multiple ways to solve it, and eventually show you how it should be done. Team work. Thinking man's game. Tactical. Those are the words I use to describe this genre.

------------------
Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Are you a FNG? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Warren
28th Mar 2000, 04:25 PM
Oh, anyone remember the case where the thief was trying to sneak into this old lady's house and I think it was, he fell through the glass roof or something and broke his leg.. he sued her under some rediculous pretense- and won..

warren looks for his large trout

------------------
Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Are you a FNG? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Catalyst
28th Mar 2000, 05:53 PM
Good points everyone! Warren: yeah, same thing happened around here in Moorpark, some guy was trying to break into a school or something, he fell through a skylight, and then sued the school for not having the building safety-zoned or some crap.

Oh, and I think the trout is in your other pants. (Avoids many, many other tasteless jokes that could have fit here) /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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Chris Robbers
Infiltration Programmer

Warren
28th Mar 2000, 07:29 PM
o_0

That's it- you're skipping dinner pal- go STRAIGHT to your office and don't come out until 2.8 is finished..

dammit we don't have an office..

why am I always the last one to find this stuff out?

::sigh::

warren looks for his other pants

ShakKen
28th Mar 2000, 09:50 PM
Mmmm. Trout. Can I have some?

Corin
29th Mar 2000, 12:53 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You guys are sick and twisted.

Good thing you dont have any CHiP's on your shoulders, eh?

Edit: About the reason I didn't add alcohol, I have had prior experience with both marijuana and alcohol, and a few others, I am most definitely not proud of what I chose to do with my free time in those days; but I am proud that I eventually chose to stop smoking marijuana, and to stop doing illegal drugs at all. My reason: I found myself getting stupid; and I can watch my friends who still smoke get stupider every day. I am just lucky I guess, that I was able to quit with no difficulty. I think there are reasons that some drugs are illegal and others are not, messing with your mind being one of them.

Alcohol has effects on my motorskills, my mood, and my senses, but so far it hasn't made me dumb. In other words, it's not f**king with my mind like marijuana did. I have decided that anything that can make me paranoid or forgetful or just plain stupid is something that is extremely bad for me. I also quit smoking cigarretes because of a bad cough. I know I was addicted but I didn't have any problem stopping, just a slight craving when I saw others. I am glad I didn't have nicotine fits, like I have heard of. :tidE

[This message has been edited by Corin (edited 03-29-2000).]

Corin
29th Mar 2000, 02:24 AM
Hmmm. The topic has changed quite abit hasn't it?

Bad.Mojo
29th Mar 2000, 04:11 AM
Warren: There was also a case in Canada, where a man broke into a woman's house, and was bitten by a guard dog. He sued, and the dog had to be destroyed. A dog had to die for being trained to do what it was supposed to do. And the crown dropped the charges against him because of "trauma from the physical damages he suffered." In another travesty of justice, the courts of British Columbia ruled TWICE that it was unconstitutional to outlaw the distribution of child pornography, because it was against the right of freedom of expression. I felt like expressing myself by blowing up a courthouse or two... though restraint was a good thing in that case.

Also, consider the flip side of the coin to the terrorist's "balls-to-bones" theory. What if the South had won the American civil war, and slavery was still allowed in the United States. The Yankees would be nothing but a terrorist movement, some anti-government psychos. Or even deeper still, had the United States' War of Independence been won by the British, then the revolutionaries would have been nothing more than terrorists too.

You're only a revolutionary if you win. If you lose, you're a terrorist. Che Guevera and Fidel Castro, another fine example of revolutionaries-cum-terrorists.

Life is so abstract that you have to remember to see everything in shades of gray.

Corin: On the topic of marijuana, the predominant psychoactive, delta-9 tetrahydrocannibinol (more commonly known as THC) has resulted in fewer fatalities than alcohol or tobbaco/nicotine products. The facts are as follows: Marijuana is 1/2 as carcenogenous as tobacco. Marijuana contains no poison, unlike nicotine or tobacco. Marijuana does not damage your liver. Marijuana contains no long-lasting effects on mental synapses or brain cells (like alcohol does.) 97% of all motor vehicle fatalities involving marijuana have also shown that the drivers of the car(s) have had some alcohol in their systems. 42% of those people had alcohol over the legal limit. Marijuana is a gateway drug. If that's true, so is alcohol and tobacco. Its even more amazing (or sad, depending on how you look at it) that marijuana, along with hash, opiates, and other naturally occuring hallucinogens/stimulants were outlawed to keep import drug trade down. The domestic-grown cannabis, Hemp, was commonly used as a smoke product, and only outlawed and deemed controlled once the DuPont chemical company (in bed with the government) found a way to make synthetic rug fibers. Other governments soon followed suit. It depresses me, really, that a solvent that poisons your liver, kills your brain, results in a loss of inhibitions, and aids in vehicle fatalities, coupled with a smoking product filled with known toxic chemicals and active poisons, undiluted pesticides, that kills your lungs, throat, pallette, and colon can be sold on the open market, their taxed blood money paying much in the way of our children's educations, whereas an illegal product, supported by 51% of the North American population, with no extreme adverse side effects, no toxins known to man, no harmful bi-products, no lasting effect on neural tissue, responsible solely for a sense of euphoria is outlawed because corporations are to greedy to allow it to exist.

I'm not defending drugs or anything. Having done blow and PCP, that's a land I'm not going back to, and I'm glad I quit weed. But placing pot above alcohol and tobacco in the terms of legality or not, or how it makes you feel or not, is really, really not right.

I know, that's a helluva run on sentence. Shouldn't this go in the rants forum?

Mr. T
29th Mar 2000, 10:38 AM
Mojo is right. It's gets worse when you consider the number of people in our jails and prisons with marijuana related offenses. Thus costing the tax payers more money, overcrowding the prison system etc.. It's something that affects everyone. Now, let me make this clear. I do not defend any of these drugs. I used to do that **** too, and would never go back to it. It is not good for your heart or your lungs - if smoked. And I don't recomend it to anyone.
Just Say NO! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Corin
29th Mar 2000, 08:33 PM
Oh, I definitely know that cigarettes are much worse for you than marijuana is health-wise, but any studies saying that it has no adverse side-effects on your brain and mind, are total bull****. I would much rather be dead than to have my brain f**ked up alot, that's why I quit. One thing to point out though, all things effect you based on the degree of emersion. I drink a beer, mmm it tastes good. I drink 6 beers, I'm drunk as hell. Same goes with other drugs.

MJACK
29th Mar 2000, 08:56 PM
Well, I'm coming into this subject late, so I'll just express my views on all of the things that were brought up.
On realistic weapons in games:
Have you heard of Rainbow 6, Rogue Spear, or Swat 3? Other FPS games like Half-Life and Soldier of Fortune use predominantly realistic weapons (if not damage). I sincerely doubt that realistic weapons mods such as Counterstrike and INF. has had much effect, if any, on the sales of Half-Life and UT. 95% of the people who bought them probably hadn't even HEARD of these mods.

On violence:
Leave video games, TV, movies, etc. alone and just take away the freaking second amendment. It is totally irrelevent today. I know a lot of you are "gun nuts" and might not agree with me on this, but guns are outlawed in Japan and they have an annual murder rate of like 50 or something. Keep theguns in video games and movies, there's no reason for the average person to have them in real life.

On drugs:
Anything up to weed is alright in moderation, other drugs will f-ck you up.
Just my own damned opinion.

DeadeyeDan[ToA]
29th Mar 2000, 09:50 PM
Oh jeez.

The Second Amendment is anything but irrelevent. In the modern world tyranny and crime preventable by self defense still exist. How much, you ask? Over 2,000,000 people defend thesmeslves with guns each year, and there are estimates that over 50,000 crimes are not even attemted because the criminal feared his victim was armed, each year- both dwarf the # of people killed by guns annually (35,000).

Thanks for insulting anyone who disagrees with you before they even speak, that's real mature. Why debate when you can just call the other guy a gun nut? Just keep listening to the talking heads on TV, they wouldn't mislead you about those who defend their constitutional rights as American citizens.

Japan had low crime before they passed any gun laws at all. That's just the way their country is. Ours is much more violent, and guns do not contribute to this- we have more murders with knives and blunt objects than they do, too. And in japan they convict over 99% of those prosecuted, usually the cops just beat the guy 'till he confesses, guilty or not.

You may not think YOU have a reason to own a gun, but when you say my rights should be taken away I am insulted.

[This message has been edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] (edited 03-29-2000).]

Mr. T
29th Mar 2000, 10:00 PM
Disagree. The mod communities out there have grown significantly over the last few years. Mod developers are a lot more in touch with the consumer than the game development companies are. Sales can definately be attributed to the mods for these games. That we can be sure of.

Disagree. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

And concerning drugs. I thought the whole reason to use any of them in the first place was to get yourself f'd up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bad.Mojo
29th Mar 2000, 10:52 PM
Take away the second amendment? I don't think so! In the country I come from (Canada) guns are fairly well regulated and controlled (long rifles are the least controlled, handguns are more heavily controlled [very concealable] and assault and automatic weapons are banned outright from civilian use.)

HOWEVER, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. There will always exist illegitimate channels with which to acquire weapons, and anybody with enough balls to go through with a bank robbery, assassination, or kidnapping has enough balls to purchase high tech weapons stolen from military or paramilitary organizations licensed to use those weapons. I'd much rather have a safety-locked M4 in my home, key tucked away from prying children's eyes but still within easy reach. If somebody breaks into my house, I want to be able to stuff a gun barrel in their face and tell them to get the hell out. If somebody were to threaten my family with a weapon, I'd want to do the same.

We all have the right to personal defence.

MJACK
30th Mar 2000, 05:35 PM
I didn't say to completely outlaw guns, I said to not give every person the right to have a gun. And guns may not kill people by themselves, but they are USED to kill people, and it's a helluva lot easier to cap someone than to try to carve someone up with a knife. And sure "outlaws" could still manage to get guns, but at least it would be harder for them. What the hell does the average American need protection against anyway? The only logical way I can see guns be used is for target practice, hunting, and law enforcement types.

Corin
30th Mar 2000, 08:20 PM
MJACK, you said that we should "take away the freaking second ammendment", that would effectively take away the rights of all private citizens to bear arms. There is no way in hell, the democrats would vote for any kind of legislation to allow only certain people to own guns, and if you think about it, you already have to have a liscence to legally own a gun.

What else can you do to decide who gets guns? Psychiatric evaluation? That's just plain sick, and an invasion of privacy. Wear a patch on your clothes? Hmmm reminds me of Germany prior and during WW2, I'm sure the the jewish loved that law. Maybe we should all wear anklebracelets. Yea! I'm a criminal now! Happy Day.

The way I see it, we have had too many of our rights taken away in the name of "freedom". Bigger government just means bigger brother.

MJACK
30th Mar 2000, 08:31 PM
Well, I doubt what I'm advocating has a realistic chance of being implemented, I was just saying that if there were less guns there would be less murders, and the average US citizen has no reason to own a gun. What are the chances of you're house being robbed?
Buy a freaking burgalar alarm.

Paralax
30th Mar 2000, 09:13 PM
Hmmm...touchy subject, 02:00 AM...been drinking Grapa (DiBrunello, straight from Italy, and yes it is f**king with my mind but I if it didn't I wouldn't drink it).
As for weed...if you like it smoke it. If you don't, well, don't. Just don't tell me what to do as long as I don't blaze a dubie in your house. Also don't sell it to my little brother (the one under 15) or I'll smack you in the face. (Not directed to anyone on these boards, unless of course you sell weed to my six year old brother in which case I will be forced to smack you ;-)The other three are old enough to make ther own decisions...
...which brings me to my point.

Someone else touched on this: Let people make their own decisions and hold them accountable. You shoot 10 people you are a murderer, plan and simple. But is it that simple? Don't we have to find an answer? So we can try to stop the violence? I say no, we don't. We are looking to create (through legislation) a perfect society. Something that I feel is impossible. Humans are too imperfect and emotional to live in perfect societies and violence, while heartbreaking at times, and necessary at others, is a part of life.

Only people who know how to use weapons should be allowed to own them...at least this would help eliminate some of the really stupid accidents that happen. We will never be able to determine ahead of time the nature of a man. A dude with a totally clean slate, wall street job could be the most disgusting sociopath walking the streets. The nicest person in your office might be silently supressing his urge to let loose on the entire building with his new AK. This is a reality of life, but we should not let our Governement tell us why this is the case and how to deal with it. They need to spend their time thinking of better ways to spend our tax money and increase trade and foreign markets by helping our best private industries capture the telecommunications market, and alternative fuel industries (and this can go for any country). The second we let our freedom and our moral values be dictated to us is the second we need to start reevaluating our own roles in our lives.

What a cool totally off-topic thread...these message boards are almost as cool as the game. Where's my Bob Marley albums?

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That would be me...gettin' fragged.

Bad.Mojo
30th Mar 2000, 10:15 PM
Well, the reason why you don't limit who gets a gun and who doesn't is really very simple, because while it may be quicker and easier to go out and get a gun and cap somebody than knife them up, its even easier, and virtually untraceable, to run out to a wooded area, get some fine wood such as Yew, carve it, make a decent bow, make some pointy, aerodynamic arrows, and put them in somebody's heart, if you really wanted to. And that's the point, I think if anybody really wants to, they will go and do it.

As for criminals having an easier time getting guns on the open market than the black market, I really question your judgment here. The black market is huge, and it exists because people make use of it constantly. The open market is for legitimate, private citizens to gather munitions for hunting, collecting, personal protection. The black market caters to criminals. Want a hot gun? Good, go there. A criminal would have to be very, VERY stupid to use his own licensed and registered, serial numbered, weapon to kill somebody.

As for the whole perfect world deal, I agree. A perfect world will never, ever exist. Face it, if people were perfect enough to have a perfect world, it would already be a Utopian society. Unfortunately, for all the ways we delude ourselves that man is superior to all other life, higher thought, sentience, and emotions are a dangerous, volatile mix. Do dogs wage wars? No, they kill when they need to kill, to protect themselves, their pack, or to feed. Does man wage war? Yes, and why? Because he wants one more oil field. Because this government doesn't agree with him on topics x and y. Ipso facto, man is stupid.

As for kids and drugs, yes, I smoke up, but I would never, ever smoke in front of a kid. Anybody 0-15 I figure is to influencable to make their own decisions on what's right for them. But as soon as you can drive a car (and consequently make the choice to run people over or not, and legally smoke if you so choose) then I waive all your rights of sheltered world and innocence. Time to make you grow up and face harsh reality.

-Lost-
31st Mar 2000, 12:21 AM
ok, well i'm supposed to be writing my paper right now, so i won't get into the big argument here, but i feel i must comment about the bow. two objections to this
1. do you know how hard it is to go make a bow and arrows? my god, it's impossible, i'm making one right now. well, not right now, right now, but you know what i mean.
2. is a bow really a good murder weapon? you cannot conceal it, you have to be a really good shot to kill with one arrow, and you can't really be too far away. maybe if your victim lives in a secluded house by themselves or something, but then it'd be easier to just run up and knife em!
ok, well i think i'll comment on the pot too. i smoke up sometimes. haven't for a while, but i enjoy it. i even made my own bowl. like the bow. and the chain mail i'm gonna start soon. see a trend here? anyway, it may be an enjoyable experience and all, but i could easily do without it and i really don't have a problem with it because against the law. i wouldn't want everyone walking around high all the time. you don't work right when you're high. what would your boss say if you came into work high, couldn't concentrate on your work and couldn't remember what happened two minutes ago? pot should be against the law and that's that. it's fine to smoke cigarettes because they don't f*** you up. you can do anything when smoking cigarettes. that's why you are allowed to smoke them. and i'm sure they give the government lots of money or something too, but i don't know anything about that.
oh, and don't even think about outlawing guns, because it'll never happen, see all the previous posts about that. one simply should not try because it's impossible. plus, guns are fun! i love the shooting range and i'd like to get a gun when i graduate in another five years...ok, now i'm sure i said something stupid, but i don't feel like rereading my post, so just live with it ok!

Lost

DeadeyeDan[ToA]
2nd Apr 2000, 12:40 AM
What about beer? Beer f***s you up too (as a matter of fact pot is safer per amount of intoxication), but it is legal. If you came to work high (or drunk), you'd probably just be fired. The government shouldn't be outlawing things just because they are bad for you, anything can be bad for you if you consume enough. The government should just end the war on drugs- boom, no more drug dealers, tons more money for the govt.(probably lower taxes), twice the police force available (we're using half our cops for drug enforcement now), who knows how much more prison space available, and *maybe* the street gangs won't be able to afford so many black market assault rifles.

[This message has been edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] (edited 04-02-2000).]

Mr. T
2nd Apr 2000, 01:12 AM
Actually, if pot is smoked regularly, every day, and in some sort of moderation, it becomes more of a relaxing agent, instead really f'n you up. Unless it's kind bud, Maui Wowee, or whatever the hell you want to call it.

Concentration can be maintained quite well, regardless of what mental activity you are attempting to perform. But I suppose it can affect people differently.

If you don't believe me, try smoking it once or twice a day, for a year, and then report back your results.

Oh, and it's not illegal everywhere you know.

Eliwar
2nd Apr 2000, 03:16 AM
Wow, look at all the former drugies /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'd bet that every single one of you guys stopped when INF got started. Its the best drug anywhere: its free, it legal, short term effects. ahhhh
Couple of co-workers of mine went to the Hashbash that goes on in Ann Arbor, Michigan today. Its funny how most police won't do anything about its use up there today and yet it is still illegal.

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What is your major malfunction, numbnuts?!!
Didn't Mommy and Daddy show you enough
attention when you were a child?!!!
*BANG* -FMJ