Some questions on guns...

[I_ABuGa]

there was a discussion on guns in the suggestions section and I thought of a few questions, thought I'd ask them here;

1. what the heck is an L1A1 S.L.R? (hope i got that acronym right.)

2. Is a G41 a G3 except that the G41 uses 5.56 NATO?

3. What is a G3-SG1 - ala what CS uses. Cant seem to find info on that one.

4. would a .50 caliber be the same as a 12.7mm?
5. would a .338 = 7.62mm?

6. I heard there was a rifle designated L96A1 and was used by British Military. Would that be a sniper rifle like the Accuracy International PM?

7. Can the shot from a shotgun - say a Remington 870, penetrate multiple targets - is there danger of of buckshot going through a person and hitting another target standing behind?

8. 9mm rounds seem to be a favourite round type for pistols, any reason for this?

9. comparing round sizes, rifles generally pack 5.56 and 7.62 mm rounds, any reason for this? Why not a 9mm round like what most pistols use?

10. there was a discussion on bullet types. What is an APIT, API, incendiary and tracer round?

thnx in advance for the answers
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-------------

Maybe someday the world will learn, to be kind to someone who makes a fault..
Snakeye <IMG src=http://unreal.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif>

Hell, I'd settle for having the world learn anything at all.

[Keiichi]

Well, I'm not Gryphon, but I think I can answer some of those.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>9. comparing round sizes, rifles generally pack 5.56 and 7.62 mm rounds, any reason for this? Why not a 9mm round like what most pistols use?[/quote]

5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds have a greater effective range and pack more of a punch than 9mm Parabellum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>10. there was a discussion on bullet types. What is an APIT, API, incendiary and tracer round?[/quote]

Incendiary means the ammunition has an explosive tip (Gryphon, correct me if I'm wrong). Tracer ammunition leaves visible trails that allow you to see the bullet's trajectory. As for API and APIT, I'm assuming those are Armor-Piercing Incendiary and Armor-Piercing Incendiary Tracer respectively.

I'm sure Gryphon could explain them in more detail.

-Keiichi

http://www.geocities.com/morisato_81/Kei-sig.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/morisato_81/

[Casull]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>8. 9mm rounds seem to be a favourite round type for pistols, any reason for this?[/quote]

Because the US realized that NATO have a cubic ****load of 9mm surplus, and that makes them cheap.

I'd feel more comfortable with a .45. Why? Because I don't expect to be getting off more than 7+1 rounds in close combat, so I'd rather they were big ones. It's not like the mag capacity of a 9mm is so great that you can `lay down suppressing fire' or whatever. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://glock.tiw.net/alex/casull.gif

[neo.hast]

1. I imagine you're probably talking about the British/Australian L1A1 Battle Rifle. 7.62mm NATO, 20 round detach. box magazine. FN/FAL Files (http://www.fnfal.com)

2.Errr... I always thought the G41 was a German 7.92 Semi-Auto rifle. Or was that the G43? Crap, i wish i could remember.

3.The G3SG1 is a the sharpshooter's rifle version of the G3 Battle Rifle. Made by HK. ALSO 7.62 NATO w/ a 20 or 30 round detachable box magazine.
This place should heve the info ya need:
HK Pro (http://www.hkpro.com)

4. The .50 BMG is a 12.7x99 cartrige, yes indeed /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

5. I believe so, i used to have a .338 Lapua Mag in a Remington SR9? I think that was the designation. Who knows. A PSS on steroids. Had detach. mags too, i shoulda NEVER sold it.

6.If I'm not mistaken the L96A1 is a sharpshooter's rifle, and.. Heh, isn't it the same rifle as the Accuracy International AW? But in .338 Lapua Mag? I might be wrong, i haven't looked AIs stuff in a while.

7.With steel shot, maybe. Flechettes? Definately. Lead shot? I doubt it. I'm not a big shotgun person, so i may be wrong.

8.Casull hit the nail right on the head. It's EXTREMELY cheap. Not a big fan of 9mm tho, i like .45 or .40 S&W. And in a wheelgun? 44 Mag and .357 can't be beat.

9. Well, subguns are the "9mm assault rifles" so to speak. And Keiichi is most definately right about the distance factor. The only viable reason for a pistol caliber primary (in my opinion) would be if it were suppressed, and that would be for stealth only. Now that people like Engel Ballistics in Smithville, Tx (Great folks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) have almost perfected subsonic .223 (feeds and cycles in M4/M16 suppressed w/ almost 100% reliability) the subgun might just fade away from the SpecOps scene altogether.

10. AP-Armor Piercing, API-Armor Piercing Incendiary, APIT-Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer. And again, Keiichi was right. The API have a small "explosive" tip that, upon impact, makes a white flash. I think they used them in Browning M2HB .50's to tell where the rounds where hitting in proportion to the sighting system. And they have one HELL of an intimidation factor /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think that should cover it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Heh. Hope this helps.
-neo.hast

[This message was edited by neo.hast on Sep 27, 2000 at 20:01.]

[ShakKen]

The L1A1 Self Loading Rifle is the semi automatic only version of the FN FAL manufactured by Enfield for the British Army. Replaced by the L85A1(SA80).

The G41 is based on the G3 system yes, but it is more of an improved HK33 which can accept M16 magazines, has a forward assist, and a bolt holdopen.

The G3SG1 is a standard G3 rifle which has passed a certain MOA accuraccy test and has been refurbished as a sniper rifle.

The L96A1 and the Accuraccy International PM are the same gun. The Accuraccy International AW is the .338 Lapua version.

The success of the 9mm has been mostly logistical, but it's a high intensity round with good lethality no matter how you put it. It also works magnificently when suppressed.

5.56mm and 7.62mm are high velocity bullets designed for long stable flights and the 9mm and other pistol rounds are designed for maximum close up impacts. Go figure.

Contrary to the rubbish floating around, the ballistics of subsonic .223s are about as good as suppressed .22. This is fine for sporting purposes, but useless to the military. They will never substitute subguns like the MP5SD.

Using a suppressor on a 5.56mm rifle turns it into one of two things, a stealthy rifle or a lump of turd. As an assault weapon, The added length makes the gun prohibitively difficult to manuever in close quarters, and with subsonics, well lets just say a 5.56mm 55-82 grain bullet moving at 300Meters per second versus a 9mm 115-147 grain bullet doing 300? You do the math on the raw kinetic energy.

ShakKen
Infiltration (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration)
3D artist

[neo.hast]

I stand corrected. You DO pose a very good argument on the subsonic issue, and i agree with ya 100% now that i've thought it over...

But i'd still prefer an M16A2, or an AK-74N. The subgun does have a place, but, i still think a good Assault Rifle would be better suited in cases where stealth wasn't an issue.

[Gryphon]

Geez, nothing left for me to contribute here! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Gryphon
Technical Advisor
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Read the Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm) and the FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).
Get the latest scoop on Inf munitions here (http://members.home.net/unrealtournament).

[Zundfolge]

You have taught us well, master Gryphon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Snakeye]

OK, to all the 9mm enemies out there:
Why are that many 9mm produced if the round/gun combination wasn't good?

I guess that most of the members are from the US, and therefore somewhat biased about the .45 - hell, I guess some didn't even recover from the shock that the Army uses an Italian designed 9mm pistol.
Guess the best statement about 9mm was the one of the british (SAS?) officer posted some time ago in this forum. 'Everybody who complains about effectivity of 9mm has obviously never been hit by one.' (this ain't no quote - it's just about what he said, not exactly what he said..)

For me the 9mm stays the best balance between firepower and punch.

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

[Doccers]

The only reason the US switched over was pressure from NATO about logistics.

In WWII, the German handgun was 9mm (luger's and walther's), US servicemen were often hit by these, but in many cases, just kept on fighting, since the 9mm doesn't have enough of a punch to do much more than piss off a beefy guy pumped up in the middle of combat.

The .45acp, however, is a whole 'nother story. If you get hit by one, You're going down. This includes getting hit in arms and legs, because it'll pretty much Wreck your arm if it hits you, and make your leg pretty damn unstable. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

On top of that, the Germans *HATED* the sound of .45acp pistols going off, or, much worse, the Thompson M1. They knew too, that if they got hit, they probobly weren't getting back up real quick. So intimidation factors in here for the .45, while the 9mm is just kinda a bark in comparison. (Yes, I've fired both.)

Last time I checked, the US's special forces teams were actually going back to .45acp after their unhappy courtship with 9mm, with weapons like the H&K SOCOM 45, and even reworked 1911a1 and 1991a1 colt pistols.

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[Snakeye]

OK, how many of you have been hit by both .45 and 9mm rounds? How many have shot anyone with both rounds?

It vastly depends on where you get hit in the arm/leg. A 9mm going through a bone will render anyone unable to walk/use the arm - same through flesh only might still fight on.

In fact the 1911 is a formidable handgun, but hitting anything with it at longer range is rather difficult(standard 1911, not custom ones). I read a story about two officers, one US one Japanese who met acidentially in the jungle; both drew their handguns and fired their mag - now guess what happened: both of them missed their whole mag.

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

[Snakeye]

Sorry for aborting my post in the middle, but there was work to do.

for getting a little bit into the quoting sport:
'..since the 9mm doesn't have enough of a punch to do much more than piss off a beefy guy pumped up in the middle of combat.'
From Mr. Doccers.

I guess you have been talking about a .22, Sir. A well placed 9mm takes out any 'beefy guy'. (Which brings me to another 'fairytale': fat men(or beefy) are not any better at absorbing damage - they just provide more area for non lethal shots.)

The story about mortaly wounded sodliers fighting on is nothing new. About 80% of all mortaly wounded live on for 5-20 minutes, some even longer, with many of them being able to fight on.
It also is not unusual for soldiers who have been hit by rifle rounds(.30 cal) to fight on.

And then there's the last thing, which I posted a few days before:

Why do you think they called the Second World War not US-German-War?
Because there were some other nations involved, the CCCP, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Japan and many, many others. Some of these Nations, including Canada, used 9mm(FN HP - in fact the same weapon some Fallschirmjäger units had..)

But I guess I can post a hundred pages, and still every US citizen thinks a guy hit in the head with a 9mm will survive, while one hit in the toe with a .45 will have both his legs blown off.

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

[Eiziekiel]

**** all of those and buy a howitzer. Lets see how many people could say a seige gun couldn't pack a punch.

1) Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.
2) Atheism is a non-prophet organisation.
3) The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
4) Save the whales. Collect the whole set.
5) Mind like a steel trap--Rusty and illegal in 37 states.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/EIZIEKIEL.gif

[Casull]

I'd suggest some of you subscribe to the rec.guns Usenet newsgroup for a year or so. The general consensus on 9mm vs. .45ACP goes something like this:

(a) Shot placement is the most important factor. Indeed, .22LR is sufficent if you're just that damn good, but .38 S&W Special (preferably +P) is considered the baseline for defending onesself.

(b) .45 wins over 9mm because it's a bigger round and still reasonably fast. Also, statistically, three rounds is the `most' that get fired in gunfights, so the extra magazine capacity is technically irrelevant. In a military situation, you hope you never get around to pulling a handgun anyway.

As my login name suggests, I've moved to the .454 Casull for my self-protection round at home. Stupid level of overkill I know, but it makes me happy. For carry, I'm content with a .357 Magnum 2 inch barrel wheelgun.

http://glock.tiw.net/alex/casull.gif

[I_ABuGa]

heh, thanks guys.

but one more, is it true that the bigger the calibar, the higher the chance of it penetrating through a target? I read that many special forces who work in crowded areas such as streets use the 9mm because of this penetration value - u dont want to hurt the civies.

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Maybe someday the world will learn, to be kind to someone who makes a fault..
Snakeye <IMG src=http://unreal.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif>

Hell, I'd settle for having the world learn anything at all.

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

No, and in fact if you are talking about 2 bullets with the exact same momentum, the skinnier (smaller caliber) bullet will *generally* penetrate further (it also depends on shape, consistency etc). 9mm FMJ is a pretty lousy choice if you are worried about overpenetration- a wider bullet (like a .45) will penetrate less, but transfer more energy to the target. Of course you can get JHP's in either caliber, which would reduce penetration and increase energy transfer even further.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[Doccers]

...I'm basing what I said off of US Army reports when they tested the Luger. (they instead adopted the 1911).

Later on, in Korea, British forces (who used a 9mm handgun) had several stories of north korean and chinese people being hit dead-on with a 9mm, and continue to charge.

Several US folks brought along 9mm handguns into vietnam (for the greater magazine size), but quickly ditched them and went back to their .45acp's - the Viet Cong had a nasty habit of going into battle hopped up on PCP's. a 9mm wouldn't do much to stop them, the .45 would.

Have a nice day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[Doccers]

BTW, Personally I prefer a .22 to a 9mm, some of the high powered .22 rounds (minimags) can penetrate kevlar vests. (Study by several law enforcement agencies in the US).

Plus, you just can't beat a .22 headshot.
It goes in, and acts like a pinball. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Plus it has absolutely no recoil, and can be silenced like a wet dream, and have massive magazines...

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[OICW]

About that .45 thing in Nam...

Well, soldiers (normal infantry) are taught to aim at the centre of the target ie the chest. So that's why they kept charging. Plus, adrenaline can do funny things to people.

Hell, in WW1, a soldier charged an enemy position, got hit 4 times and kept on chaging. He took the position, but when he had taken it and checked out his wounds, he pitched over dead!

The SAS use 9mm rounds because they go for headshots (the CT teams anyway.) Smaller rounds like the 9mm and .22 are good for longer distance shooting for a pistol. The .45 rounds are generally only good for CQB.

A .22 in the head will kill you just as fast as a .45 in the heart.

"Hand to hand, is the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon."
Cyborg Ninja, Metal Gear Solid.

[Gryphon]

Massad Ayoob put it very well, "Nothing is everything, but everything is something." It's a combination of many factors, what will take someone down in a fight, and many of those factors are beyond your control. Shot placement is important, but so is the round you're using. I've heard of people taking down black bears with a .22 because it was all they had with them. Conversely, I've heard of a person being shot in the face with a .38 Special LRN only to walk to the emergency room and calmly have them patch him up.

As for penetration at close range, I'd go for a .223 carbine of some sort with 55 gr FMJ. Not only do you get superior penetration through armor vests and clothing, the wound profile for this round is very impressive. And since the bullet doesn't fully stabilize for a couple hundred meters, it penetrates LESS than a 9mm at the same range through obstacles.

Yes, Infiltration will (eventually) model that properly too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gryphon
Technical Advisor
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Read the Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm) and the FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).
Get the latest scoop on Inf munitions here (http://members.home.net/unrealtournament).

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

*taps fingertips together*

eeeeeeexcellent...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[ShakKen]

The SAS have tried and proven the 9mm to be more effective than the .45 in panic situations. In many operations in Nothern Ireland, SAS troopers were known to carry sometimes nothing more than their high powers. In many incidents, the subjects bodies are recovered with no less than 7 9mms center mass and in the T-zone.

The SAS average a kill for every 6 round burst from an MP5.

And that's with ball ammunition alone mind you. And expecially for the military, the rule of the day is volume-volume-volume. The 9mm works well, and you can carry a lot of them. The latter cannot often be said for the .45.

ShakKen
Infiltration (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration)
3D artist

[Snakeye]

Thanks ShakKen, I thought to be alone on the 9mm front..

What most of you said about the 3 round average gunfight is true, but only for civilian situations. In military terms a handgun is sure the lat resort, but if it goes to that I'd rather have something with more than 7+1; remember INF is a military situation.
For those of you who question the sense of handguns for the soldier itself:
handguns are much more a morale factor. The handgun is among the last thing a soldier would drop, even if retreating panically. It gives some kind of feeling to be able to defend himself.

About the penetration thing:
You cannot say that any bullet will penetrate better because it's size. In fact I read an article about penetration tests of handguns. They compared mainly 9mm and below, but included a .357. Nearly every average caliber penetrated up to 2mm of steel, but at 3mm only two bullets got throug. One was a WWII german 9mm AP(the standard 9mm FMJ didn't go through. The ohther was a lead WC in .357 Magnum!
So penetration is something depending on many factors, also what has to be penetrated. But I agree for protection of bystanders, a 9mm FMJ is a very poor choice. For police/civilian use a .40 or .45 is better suited.

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

[Doccers]

the H&K Socom has a magazine capacity of 12 .45acp rounds, while the browning Hi Power has a magazine capacity of 13.

I'll take the bullets that won't just piss off a druggie, thankyee. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[Doccers]

BTW, I regularly outshoot people with a .45acp at long distances, when they're using 9mm, with a normal 1911a1. it's very accurate at long ranges. You just need to learn how to shoot correctly. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[ShakKen]

The SOCOM and USP series are 3rd generation guns. Let me remind you that the GLOCK 17 holds 17 rounds and 19 rounds in flush fit magazines.

A stock gun and a modified gun are very differant. Saying you can outshoot a stock browning high power with a stock m1911a1 is utter bull****.

Anyone can shoot well with a custom gun. How many people can shoot box stock I ask you? Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, .45 is NOT the clear superior of the 9mm parabellum.

ShakKen
Infiltration (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration)
3D artist

[Casull]

If I recall (it's been in the basement for a while), my Glock 21 (which is .45 ACP) has a capacity of 13+1. That's stock, albeit pre-ban.

My Kimber outshoots it easily, incidentally.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable.[/quote]

`Very difficult' is probably a good description! Three-inch doubletaps at 7 meters is typically considered good. Certainly `good enough'.

Something else to consider - if you're worried about excellent shot placement on a target 25 meters away, there are probably alternatives to shooting. Unless you're playing Inf. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'd still rather use a revolver...

http://glock.tiw.net/alex/casull.gif

[I_ABuGa]

so generally a larger calibar = more energy transfer.


ok, how about jamming. When a gun jams, does this mean that the bullet doesnt slide up properly and gets stuck? Is it possible for a round to go off and screw up the chamber?

-------------

Maybe someday the world will learn, to be kind to someone who makes a fault..
Snakeye <IMG src=http://unreal.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif>

Hell, I'd settle for having the world learn anything at all.

[Doccers]

Bring your Browning Hi-Pow, and I'll bring my 1911a1. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The winner gets a pre-release copy of INF 2.8! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

With FMJ pistol rounds, generally yes Abuga, but if they do something other than just punch straight through, like deform/mushroom (jhp's, softpoints, etc), or spin/spall (high-speed rifle fmj's), they produce alot more energy transfer and the width of the bullet before it hits the target will matter alot less.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

[Galaddin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The winner gets a pre-release copy of INF 2.8! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif [/quote]

Hehe Doccers, it looks like ShakKen has nothing to gain because it seems that all the members of the INF team somehow have their hands on INF 2.8... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is impossible for the glass to be half full or half empty for you see: there is no glass

[ShakKen]

Ak, you're on. But the 1911a1 has to be a stock government model from either colt or auto-ordnance. No contest.

Kimbers are BUILT up as custom guns so they don't count.

"so generally a larger calibar = more energy transfer."

Not neccesarily, light bullets with high velocities slow down quickly on impact, hence they spall and tranfer energy quickly.

ShakKen
Infiltration (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration)
3D artist

[Doccers]

Mine's a gov't model 1911 issued in 1943. No mod's to it, other than the slide being replaced (with another stock slide, the original was pretty banged up).

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

[Zundfolge]

We keep jumping back and forth between military and self defense uses.

For military, a 9mm pistol makes the most sense. A handgun is the weapon of last resort, and being able to share ammo with your SMG means there's less of a chance some quartermaster will **** up and not send you the right ammo for your pistol.

Now, for civilian personal defense, you're not going to need a double-stack magazine with 17 rounds, you're going to get 1-3 shots and that's it. Either you're dead, your attacker is dead, the cops have shown up, or you or the attacker have found an opening and run away. So in that scenereo the .45 would be fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable. [/quote]

I think you've got just as much chance of seeing a flying pig with the 9mm too, especialy under combat situation.

Maybe at the gunrange, under controlled conditions a real good shot could pull that off.

The HK USP .45 holds 12+1, and there are other hi-capacity .45s on the market.
As for the military not using custom guns, the 1911 was developed for the military, so I think that would make it somewhat of a custom.

I agree that the 1911 is outdated for a military role, but are you comparing .45 ammo to 9mm ammo or a 1911 to a Baretta 92f?


BTW, Casull, which Kimber have you got? Once I have all my pennies saved up I'm looking at buying one (if I get enough pennies, I want an UltraCDP).

http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig.GIF