What is the best hand gun in 40s&w ?

[DarkBls]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I love 40S&W caliber, but
i don't know which one to choose:</font></p>
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<u>Glock 23C (http://www.glock.com/g23.htm)</u></td>
<td width="84%" valign="top">I'm wondering about the trigger quality and Ii
regret the fact you cannot add easily a supressor</td>
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<p align="center"><img border="0" src="http://shoe.free.fr//sig_229_police.jpg" width="163" height="80">

<u>SSIG 229 (http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/download/P229.gif)</u></td>
<td width="84%" valign="top">Reliability ?</td>
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<p align="center"><img border="0" src="http://shoe.free.fr/uspc40_lg.jpg" width="153" height="115">

<u><a href="http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/Pages/uspc40.html">USP40
compact</a></u></td>
<td width="84%" valign="top">Seem good but the same remark about the
supressor.</td>
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I have another question about laser. What do you think about internal laser ?
Like Lasermax (http://www.lasermax-inc.com/gunsight/specs.html) ?

Does the accuracy is reduced with one installed ?</p>
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[This message was edited by DarkBls on Mar 02, 2001 at 10:11.]

[ShakKen]

I'd take a Glock 23C. IF you have good trigger dicipline, you should have nothing to worry about. A Glock will NOT go off unless you pull the trigger. And it's an EXCELLANT trigger at that.

IF you're going for a SIG, then forget the 229 and go for a polymer frame SIGPRO 2340. Never fired one, but I hear good things. Hell, it's polymer, can't go far wrong with that.

Don't like USPs, so can't say.

And the fact that all these weapons are Browning action is going to require any suppressor you find for them to be carefully weighted and subsequently rather expensive. The only way you'll mount one is buying an extended barrel and having it custom threaded.

Forget lasers. You're better of without them. If you ever face a defensive situation, you want to be looking through your sights, not looking for some obscure little dot on your assailant.

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[Eliwar]

my dad just got a sig 229. It is a nice gun, maybe the polymer one would be better but I doubt that this gun is gonna see much more than a shotting range.

http://planetunreal.com/legends/darkliege/sig239.jpg
http://planetunreal.com/legends/darkliege/ssig239.jpg

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Legends Reborn
Project Leader/ Lead Artist
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[DarkBls]

Don't like USP ? Any reason to say that ?

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[Zundfolge]

Lasers are toys, in a crisis situation you actualy won't even be using your sights. In fact many shooting instructors dislike the lasers because they make you a lazy shooter.
Remember that most defensive shootings are going to be inside 20ft (about 6 meters).
I posted this before, but it's worth reposting http://www.plusp.com/classroom.html

There are a couple of other .40s&w loading guns that deserve a look, the Mauser M2 ( http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/mauser_m2.htm ) and the Steyr M and S series pistols ( http://www.wichserwaffen.ch/pistolen_steyer.htm ) Both have had good reviews in the gun magazines (for what that's worth ;) )

I've got a better link for the Steyr at home, I'll add it later.

As for addition of a surpressor, Are they legal in France? I always figured that pistols where outlawed in France, let alone a surpressed one.

EDIT: I forgot to add the important part. For the most part, guns made by the major manufacturers are all going to be quality (yes, you can argue that some are better then others) but the most important thing is to put them in your hand and point them (and if possible take them to the range first).
A handgun is going to have to be an extension of your hand and just because one gun looks better on paper then another doesn't mean anything if you're not comfortable shooting it.

Take the Sig 220 for example, I've got a friend of mine who had one and thought it was an excellent handgun. But he has rather large hands so when he gripped the gun tightly the bottom of his hand would push the magazine out just slightly. It wouldn't fall to the floor, but it wouldn't chamber or fire either (embarrassed him at a couple of bowling pin shoots, good thing it didn't happen in a dark alley when trying to defend himself).


<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif </center>

[This message was edited by Zundfolge on Mar 02, 2001 at 11:47.]

[ShakKen]

Personal Bias I guess;) But to me, every handgun with a polymer frame and Browning action is just a Glock copy;)

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[Zundfolge]

You're not going to see me say anything against Glock.

What I'm saying is that at this point the only major difference between most of the modern autoloaders on the market is asthetics and ergonomics (which are still important differences)

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif</center>

[Zundfolge]

Well I found that better link for the Steyr M & S series pistols.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/msseries/

It's probably just me, but I think the Steyr S is one of the best looking handguns on the market today :)
Would love to hold one and see if it's as comfortable as it looks.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/msseries/s/s40.gif

I also wonder if their Triangle/Trapazoid sights are actualy better (at least they look less likely to snag on your clothes)
http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/msseries/m/sights.gif
<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif </center>

[This message was edited by Zundfolge on Mar 02, 2001 at 14:17.]

[CoffeyCan]

I wouldnt buy handguns on looks, rather for functionality, and comfort for the shooter. I second everything Zunfoldge says. Ive shot both Glock and USP in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (standard not compact) as well as a range of other semi-autos, but since its between glock and USP (never fired the sig)

I liked the USP best for .40 S&W (Glock for 9mm), but I have bigger hands, and you have to understand the usage, the USP has a bigger trigger gaurd for use with gloves, ambidextrous magazine release and other features. It also felt somewhat heavier to me. It also costs more and the differences btwn the glock and USP are not night and day, so if you are hard strapped, the glock is good.

Again, do they even allow supressors for new guns in France? Its something to look into.

It also looks like your going for compact guns too, any reason why? They tend to cost more, and I prefer standard barrels for greater accuracy, but again thats me.

In retrospect, this probably hasnt been too much help to you, but it comes down to what you feel most comfortable with. Dont go for the laser crap, I dont think it makes a great difference, and only adds bulk.
CC

RealMaps Site Co-Founder
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[This message was edited by CoffeyCan on Mar 02, 2001 at 13:36.]

[Zundfolge]

Damn, how could I forget. All the gun rags are all excited about the Kahr and are calling them some of the best carry guns ever made (dunno anything more then what I've read on their www site, but what the hell man, Shaft carries one :) )

http://www.kahr.com/pistols_40sw.html

http://www.kahr.com/images/kp4043.gif

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif</center>

[Wikkan]

On the topic of pistols, I'm a tard when it comes to guns and how they work- I heard of crossfire and how it means looking at the sight through the wrong eye, not getting fired across, but which eye is the right one to look with?

[ShakKen]

Heh, crossfire happens when you're aiming with both eyes open, and you focus the 'free' eye on the front sight instead of the eye you're actually aiming with.

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[[Iceman]]

GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK, um i think the GLOCK is the BEST but if you want a compensated pistol i'd go for the Glock 22C, But i just love the Glock 22 ;) .
do here and you might find that i like Glocks--> www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/trumper/126/ (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/trumper/126/)

Iceman.

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<p ALIGN=CENTER><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"color="#A5AA56" size="2">One Shot, One Kill ,No Mercy</font> </p></font>

[ShakKen]

Tovarisch!

/buys [Iceman] a drink

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[[Iceman]]

I take it Mr ShakKen likes his Glock's too?

Iceman.

<p ALIGN=CENTER>http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?s=10009422&a=ga&ul=864096938 </p>
<p ALIGN=CENTER><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"color="#A5AA56" size="2">One Shot, One Kill ,No Mercy</font> </p></font>

[Zundfolge]

For target shooting you probably won't have to worry about crossfire or aiming with both eyes open, you'll have plenty of time to aim properly and you won't be afraid for your life (which has significant effects on your body).
But for self defense shooting I still doubt that most of the time you'll even know you have sights on the gun. That's why it's a good idea to learn "indexed" or "point" shooting (its where you place your index finger along the side of a gun, point it at a target, and pull the trigger with your middle or left index finger).

The Weaver stance or isosceles stance are great and all, but most of the time you don't have time or focus to get into a proper stance and line up your target.

There's a difference between target shooting technique and defensive shooting technique (but that's no excuse to skip learning good target technique).

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif</center>

[ShakKen]

Zundfolge: Right, When it comes to shooting to save your life, your priority should be getting your sights on target and throwing out lead no-matter the posture.

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[DarkBls]

Yes about compact style weapon maybe i should reconsider it..
I have not a big hand so i thought such weapon would fit better in mine.

About supressor, i read my local law and i didn't find anything against such accessory. But the law is complex, so i could make some mistakes.

You said there are a lot of Glock copy, i agree. But don't you think when you copy something, it gives you a working base and you can improve the original one ?

About the caliber...
Shak you like very much Glock. But there are a lot of caliber. You know i like .40s&w
But what do you think about all other caliber ? What are they intend to be used for ?

Another question about Glock. You convinced me to buy a 22. But i'm interessted by the 22C. Are they some disadvantages to have a "C" version ?
Maybe about the bullet velocity...

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[This message was edited by DarkBls on Mar 04, 2001 at 11:56.]

[This message was edited by DarkBls on Mar 04, 2001 at 12:45.]

[Zundfolge]

I recently read an article in Guns & Ammo discussing various handgun loads.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=195&intArticleID=902

It's not exactly what your asking, but does give a brief rundown of each caliber.

I'm of the school of thought that says carry the most powerful load you're comfortable carring and firing, but remember that stopping power consists of 3 things; shot placement, shot placement and shotplacement :)
I'm still a big fan of .45acp, but the advantages of some of the smaller loads like .40 and .357sig are that you can load more in the magazine (however since in the US it's illegal to sell civilians new guns with magazines larger then 10rounds that's less important here). And they tend to create less recoil (however recoil is not just about your load, the design of a handgun can greatly affect recoil)

If you can, I would recommend you fire several of these loads, you might find that you don't like the recoil of something as large as the .45. I take my dad for example. He's a former Airborn Ranger, who did 2 tours of VietNam and consistantly ranked expert with his Colt 1911 but he hates the larger caliber. He would rather carry a .380 Walther PPK (and frankly he'd probably be more deadly with it than I would be with a .45) But then there's my little brother, Dolce916, he's smaller then both my dad and I and has smaller hands, but knowing him the way I do I think he would actualy PREFER the higher recoil of a compact .45.
I don't know if there are pistol ranges in France that will rent you a handgun (I assume there are), but you might try looking in the phone book for one. That or a local gun club. Some gun clubs sponsor gun education classes for people without firearms experience.

Oh, a quick note on compensated guns. They are great on the range, but not the best choice for self defense. The problem with them is that if you are using it in the dark, you may be blinded by the flash (and if firing from close to the body, you could burn yourself, which could cause you to drop the weapon)
http://www.glock.com/compensator.jpg
<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif </center>

[This message was edited by Zundfolge on Mar 04, 2001 at 13:03.]

[DarkBls]

Yes the best way to choose is to try..

About the "C" model i try mainly in target range shooting. Not for self-defense. Because if i use it for self defense i will certainly finish my life in jail. For this purpose i prefer my old relaiable ASP baton ;)

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[-Snakebite-]

The only self defense we're entitled to in England is hitting them with a baseball bat or something. Oh, and if you kill someone breaking into your house you can get put into jail for life. What a piss take, if someone breaks into my house, I reckon I should be entitled to put them down for good (or more likely, hide :)).

[Jason]

But what does ACP stand for? I doubt it stands for ACuPuncture :D

--------------
"If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor."

[ShakKen]

DarkBls: I'm fairly comfortable with any load from 9mm to .40 to .45. Although the intermediate .40 would be my best choice.

The 22C does just fine taming recoil with very little velocity loss. But I recommend you stay away from aftermarket ported slides/barrels like those from Aerotek. Personally, I prefer not to use compensation.

If you're getting a .40 cal Glock, you might want to pick up a barrel with a fully supported chamber. Bar-sto makes a good one. That is, if you're shooting reloads(voids warranty on most guns). I also reccomend getting a good Nylon/Kydex holster made for the particular model of glock with a groove cut for the sights. Using the typical Bianchi holster puts a lot of wear of the plastic sights. Alternatively, if you have to use a grooveless holster, get new sights installed.

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[DarkBls]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you're getting a .40 cal Glock, you might want to pick up a barrel with a fully supported chamber. Bar-sto makes a good one. [/quote]

Forgive my ignorance but what a fully supported chamber is intend for ?

Shooting custom bullet avoid warenty ? **** ! :(

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[Zundfolge]

Shooting handloaded ammo will void you warranty (but I'm not sure how they would know you where firing handloads if you don't tell them).

Funny thing about handloads is that you will find that the absolute best ammo is handloaded and so is the absolute worst. However if you do a good amount of shooting, it would probably pay off to invest in good handloading equipment because ammo is expensive. Plus you can fine tune the ammo to your particular gun and your style of shooting.

I want one of these...
http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=12&dyn=1&cookieClean=1

The reason that handloads void your warranty is that some idiots will overload their rounds trying to make them "hot" but your gun is not designed to take overloaded ammo (that's where a fully supported chamber comes in handy). Also other idiots (well maybe some of them are the same idiots) will re-use their shell casings over and over again, which is unwise (failure of a shell casing will damage the chamber of your gun and the reciever and possibly your hand, and maybe even an eye).

Edit: ACP = Automatic Colt Pistol
<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif </center>

[ShakKen]

Heheh, case failure. kB!

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/sig_images/shakinfil.jpg

[Zundfolge]

On a side note, being French wouldn't you also like the Fabrique National
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/49/fortynine.htm
(yeah, I know it's from Belgium but that's closer to being French then a Glock :) )
also does GIAT make any handguns?

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif</center>

[DarkBls]

A lot of our national weapon maker closed their gate because of the too restrictive law :(

But hey are still some good manufacturer like Manurin.
Giat industrie doesn't make handgun as i know.

About FN i know the famous FiveseveN but is the one you posted good ?

I would like to buy a FiveseveN but hard to find cheap SS190 ammo and the bullet trapof the target range will make a sad face when you fire with such bullet ;)

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[DarkBls]

I checked out the link you gave:
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/49/fortynine.htm

A great kit ! Become a part of my dream now ;)

But you know here to own a gun is hard and long path...

About the fully supported chamber . Could you explain what is it intend for ?

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[This message was edited by DarkBls on Mar 05, 2001 at 08:07.]

[Zundfolge]

Well I did some digging and found an article in Guns & Ammo on the FN 49
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=195&intArticleID=671

also found one on the gun I'm looking at , the Mauser M2
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=195&intArticleID=1061


and a series of articles on handloading
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=198&intArticleID=1062
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=198&intArticleID=1063

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif</center>

[DarkBls]

You are very helpful, thanx !

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[DarkBls]

Could you explain why is i purchase a Glock i need to buy a barel from Bar-Sto ? What is a "fully supported chamber" ? Forgive my poor experience ;)

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[DarkBls]

I'm sorry to annoy everybody on this thread (specially you zund & Shak) but i made a search on several search engine on the web without finding what a "fully supported chamber" is :(

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[Zundfolge]

Here's the link to Bar-Sto's web site
http://shooternet.com/barsto/

I think the reason Shakken mentioned them is that if you where going to use handloads that where loaded more powerful then ones you'd buy already made then you would need a better barrel then the stock one.

The Bar-Sto barrells are more accurate and tougher then the stock ones. However if you are going to buy already loaded ammo (like most people do) then the stock one should be fine. Eventualy you might want to upgrade the barrel, but it's not necessary right away.

<center>http://home.kscable.com/biles/ZundSig4.gif </center>

[DarkBls]

Maybe a threaded barel for supressor ;)

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