My complete lack of gun knowledge.....

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-=SDS=-A-TeamDan

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Just out of curiosity, wouldn't a sniper have some sort of a silencer or suppressor. Out of mere logic, and common sense, I know w/ the robar, once you fire one shot, people find you. It just seems logical, however, if i'm being completely retarded....feel free to inform me other wise.

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ThunderChunky

ThunderChunky

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I'm no expert, but I am under the impression that a supressor changes flight dynamics of the bullet making it less accurate, or it has less power, or something which would be against the point of having a sniper.

Also, hearing that shot, seeing one of your buddies drop, can probably demoralize the enemy, making them take cover from fire from an unknown direction.

But what do I know?

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Snakeye

Snakeye

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No snipers usually don't use supressors.

Reasons are simple..

- supressors must be used with subsonic ammo, which has limited range and damage potential. You either have a very heavy bullet, which drops like a rainbow, or a light one, which does less damage and gets blow away by the wind. In both cases range is very limited.

- a supressor used with supersonic ammo still conceals the sniper, since the sound of the rifle dichargeing is supressed. You still hear the supersonic boom of the bullet.
Still a supressor sure would change the bullets accuracy to the negative.

- as funny as it might sound, but snipers who fire a shot from a good position are very unlikely to be spotted. Directional hearing is usually not enough to get the exact direction the shot came from, and even if, without range it is unprobable to find the sniper.
Since snipers usually change positions after a few shots, they are not that likely to be spotted at all.

So why use a supressed rifle with perhaps 300 meters range, when a unsupressed id more accurate, does more damage and has a range of up to 1000 meters(7.62mm, .50s are at more than 2000 meters)?

Snakeye :D

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing
 
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billlee

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Jan 21, 2001
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Silencer not normally needed for sniper

Silencers are not normally needed by snipers for a number of reasons:
1) Snipers are normally deployed far enough away from CQB so that the first indication that you have been attacked by a sniper may be the sound of a supersonic bullet hitting you, then the report of the gun firing from a distance comes later. By the time you start looking for where the bullet came from, the sniper may be looking for a new firing position. At long range, there should be numerous possible hiding spots for snipers.
2) You can't silence the sharp whip-cracking sound of a supersonic bullet passing close by. If you use a subsonic round, the longer flight time of the bullet means that you have a lower hit probability when flight time between firer and target is increased, and the damage done will be lower when the projectile impacts the target. Military-wise this is usually unacceptable.
3) Snipers are psychologically not suicidal and pick targets without the means to immediately retaliate against the sniper. A sniper team that needs to kill a whole platoon will rely on his friendly local fire support artillery to do the job, while they spot for them.
4) As you mentioned, a suppressor will change the point of impact for a rifle bullet. This is very bad for a sniper who wants to do his job with the minimum number of shots - one if possible.
5) A sniper tends to use high power weapons and this makes it very difficult to silence without huge suppressors hanging on the end of the muzzle of your rifle. A Robar is large enough without another two feet of suppressor on the front - a Barrett 0.50" BMG sniper rifle has a muzzle brake to reduce recoil (you do not want to fire one without the muzzle brake!) which coincidently increases the sound of firing as well as muzzle blast and flash.

'Silencers' are a Hollywood invention, perpetuated for the purposes of entertainment and plot development. Except for a few special weapons, a silenced military weapon will not sound like the cough you hear in a movie. A silenced MP5 (standard ammo) will still have peak levels of 135 dB - enough to damage your hearing. The type of suppressor depicted in INF for the MP5 only reduces the sound by about 35dB - about the same as wearing a good set of ear muffs. And this is a low powered ammunition round.

Bill Lee
PS: I am thinking of starting up a thread on sound issues in INF, including stun incorporating some of the ideas above.
 
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Lord_Bunker

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i've mentioned it before but along with directionall location, there have been snipers that have utilized a technique of picking a target where the bullet will pass near a solid object such as a rock or tree. when that happens you'll here an echo from the shockwave fallowing the bullet. then it sounds more like the shot came from the tree adding to the confusion.

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Acey4 NA

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Once the bullet richochet effect is implemented this would be a cool trick.

like my new name?
 
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Cardinal

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The use of suppressors on sniper rifles is increasing in the military (using supersonic ammo).

1. A high-quality suppressor does NOT affect the accuracy of the rifle. A home-made one probably will... The point-of-impact will change when you mount the suppressor, but that's not a problem. Simply zero the rifle with the suppressor on.

2. The biggest reason for having a suppressor is that it significantly reduces the sound-signature of the weapon. You can't get rid of the supersonic "crack" but you can get rid of the bang at the muzzle. And the supersonic "crack" is non-directional, meaning you can't hear where it came from. Thats why suppressors is a good thing to have.
After the first shot (with a non-suppressed rifle), the enemy will turn and know your general direction. After the second shot (assuming they are somewhat competent) they can guesstimate your location within 10 decrees. If the know "crack-bang" they can find the range out to 500 meters. The "crack-bang" technique does not work over about 500m. If/when the third shot comes, they have a good chance of finding two or three possible locations. All they need to do now is call in Arty.

3 Subsonic rounds would be used when sound reduction is paramount.
BTW there are subsonic rounds which have a long range. But these are highly specialised rifles. Example: The .500 Whisper is a subsonic round with a range of out to a mile....
 
DeadeyeDan[ToA]

DeadeyeDan[ToA]

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Damn, you covered what I was going to say completely, Cardinal. Welcome to the forums!

Cardinal is right, a quality suppressor shouldn't affect the accuracy or velocity of the bullet for the worse- In fact, suppressors often act as an extension to the barrel length, causing the bullets to come out hotter.

In most cases I would definately prefer a suppressor on a sniper rifle... though I suppose if the plan was to tread through jungle for a few days, fire one shot, and get the hell out of there, the added weight and size to the weapon wouldn't be worth it.

_______________________
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but this little brother, is watching you too.
 
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Cardinal

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DeadeyeDan[ToA], you metioned one thing I forgot to include.

You will often see an increase in velocity with a suppressor.
My SIG SG 551 SWAT have a 30 fps increase in velocity when I add my Brügger & Thomet suppressor.
 
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Zundfolge

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When someone fires a rifle, it takes at least 2 shots to figure out where they are coming from. The first one gets your attention and the second you use to focus on.

If a sniper takes a while between shots, he doesn't have to worry too much about being located.

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Eagle-Six-Zero

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What he said

Snipers are often far enough away from the combat zone that the single flash isnt as noticable and the shot will echo and confuse the poor bastards who just lost a buddy.

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Col.Sanders

Col.Sanders

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Oct 12, 2000
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Cardinal:

Glad to see someone dispensing personal experience! Is the B&T a reflex suppressor? I've heard they do nothing but good for the weapon, but have never seen one. The USA prefers big, heavy cans. It seems that with the trouble it is to get one, they want the *best* possible. Sigh.

On the topic of suppressors for snipers:
1) Many military forces still use bolt-action rifles for snipers, even though modern semi-auto designs are just as accurate and very reliable. Why would they adopt suppressor technology when they are not out of the 1800's yet?
2) The people who approve gear are rarely the people who use it. Special forces are the exception, with "simplified" purchasing methonds.
3) In the US especially, suppressors are viewed as the tools of assassins and terrorists. This is evident in their strict regulation of simple devices which can be homemade.

So, the great idea of putting suppressors on sniper rifles is not likely to overcome the inertia of the military establishment very soon.
 
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Cardinal

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Nov 27, 2000
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Col. Sanders:

The suppressor is a Type G rifle suppressor: http://www.brugger-thomet.ch/frame.htm
B&T will make any suppressor you want, but unfortunally you can't legally import one into the US unless you're a Government agencies or are a Title 2 manufactor of firearms. So you Americans are out of luck when it comes to B&T.

I dis-agree with you about semi-auto sniper rifles.
Bolt-action guns are much more reliable and more accurate than semi-autos and cost much less. Take an "entry" level sniper rifle, say a Remington PSS. The rifle with a Leupold Stevens scope will cost you about $1700. But a semi-auto Stoner SR-25 with the same scope will cost you close to $4000. And the Navy have had relability problems with their SR-25's.
Most semi-auto rifles will shoot around 1 MOA, the HK MSG90 is about 3/4 MOA but costs over $6000. The HK PSG1 is about 1/2 MOA but is even more expensivea at around $8300. Those are LEO prices btw. The SR25 Match is guarenteed by KAC to shoot 1 MOA or better. Price minus optics/mount is $3000. All commonly used bolt-action guns will shoot 1 MOA or better. The best will shoot 1/4 MOA or better.

Semi-auto rifles are great for hostage rescue and counter terrorist operations, were you can get of a fast second shot if needed.

Quote: "Why would they adopt suppressor technology when they are not out of the 1800's yet?"
To me, comparing the first bolt action rifles of the late 1800's with today's sniper rifles is, frankly, stupid. The may use the same mechanisme, but sniper rifles are a hell of a lot more advanced.
Take a new Ferrari 550 Maranello. The engine is based on the same principles as the first engines that were used around, say 1915. But the Ferrari engine is a lot more advanced, and I don't think anyone can dispute that!


Suppressors are in use by Special Ops teams already around the world. And the US Army Sniper School, Ft. Benning Georgia, are/have been testing/evaluating suppressor designs for sniper rifles.
 
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