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FabulousRex
4th Mar 2000, 04:21 AM
Hello, cruel world.

I remember quite fondly my thoughts of the segragated weapons for different classes in INF, but now that I think about it, it really _does_ make since.

But there was another point I made that I feel needs further elaboration. I still think it would be a great idea to have the different classes have different cash/bulk/weight restrictions, to give the gameplay some more strategy, and add some balance to boot. The potential problems associated with this are obvious, everyone would want to be the class with the most cash, to use the cooler weapons easier. And the poor fool with low cash and high carrying ability might be picked every so often as kind of an experiment, not a good thing.

But the ramifications (big words... ow) of 'standardization' are also far to apparent in a rather popular mod for Half-Life called Counterstrike. This game has a nasty tendency to develop a vicious cycle of one team winning over and over again simply because they started with better equipment, and some lamers switched teams, and it's all downhill from there. Being on either end of this situation is very boring and not fun at all. How does this apply to INF, you ask? Easy. When a team wins, it's team members will get to keep it's 'previously owned' equipment from the last round. So you would see a team loaded up on M4's and p90's and more ammo than they could eat, and armor to boot. I like TFC for an important reason, it's a BALANCED game at all times. Skill is the ONLY thing that puts one team over another, as weapons mean not a whole lot.

But INF _will_ have every weapon available to everyone, so it's moot. But, I think that giving different classes different stats will add depth to the game. 'Cause if every class is exactly the same, what's the point of calling them classes? I know instantly that the SpecOps skin will be the most popular, because it will undoubtedly have better, 'cooler' camo on it, making it sort of a 'cheat skin'; hard to acquire, and hard to see.

Plus as an added benefit, the INF team will get the benefit of originality. Several mods offer realism and a cash system, the unrealeased Firearms for HL is a prime example. It too has a standardized money cap for all players, just not the bulk/weight, but it is by comparison a much smaller mod in scope. But customizable classes? Who'ld of thunk of it? It makes the game so much more than what CS has -devolved- into:

Cash-Based Deathmatch.


I hate to go off into a semi-rant, but the impression that i get from the team is that all 'classes' are created equal in INF.


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If ignorance is bliss, why are'nt more people happy?

[This message has been edited by FabulousRex (edited 03-04-2000).]

FabulousRex
4th Mar 2000, 04:25 AM
I'm sorry if I sound militant, but the LAST thing I would want such a promising mod like this to do is to change into what CS has become. I have very bitter memories of their 'community'. I'm also sorry for my post length, I'm notorious for long, rambling posts, but I feel I'm doing better. And one more thing...... no, just kidding. /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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If ignorance is bliss, why are'nt more people happy?

[This message has been edited by FabulousRex (edited 03-04-2000).]

Warren
4th Mar 2000, 05:56 AM
I appreciate your view, that classes should have originality. I personally don't agree, which I'm afraid does effect the mod. Basically, with classes that have differing values, you generate MANY extra manhours in trying to balance it- especially since Infiltration has loads of options coming. Not only that, but even if we did find a 'balance,' there's no doubt that once released to the public, they'd find flaws that make certain classes dominate. Our own testing seems to find only so many bugs, but when the public gets a hold of it, the huge variety of people and systems means they find bugs we wouldn't have thought of. With an unbalanced class system, this means more patches.

In answer to your question, why bother having classes- it really isn't much more than eye candy. Sure, in real life, a spec warrior would have much more developed skills than an average soldier.. then why would anyone want to pick a soldier? what realistic limits would make the soldier have ANY appeal over the specops character? Those kinds of people train and train in all sorts of tactical environments- 100% more rigorous than a typical soldier would. I can't think of one issue where a soldier would be better off than a specops character. We could invent limits to balance it, but than it's just as unrealistic as not having varying limits like we have planned.

Our concept leaves the 'skills' up to the individual player. He or she uses the weapons they like best so they get good at them. The classes will be represented by those people choosing to be snipers, fire support, soldiers, etc- simply by the weapons they choose, weight and bulk levels they keep- and then how they actually play the game. We've got enough work as it is, making 20+ weapons unique and accurate enough that there won't be a reason that you can have one dominate over the others.. The class system is applied to the weapons, not the characters.

You may think that the monetary system will make gameplay unbalanced, but this is where Infiltration will differ from other games. It may not be pretty to some people, but when the round is over EVERYone will reset- which means if you've picked up new weapons or ammo along the way, you'll loose that stuff. You cannot buy weapons in the middle of the game. And you can only carry so much! So even if we didn't reset the players, you couldn't even hold 3 assault rifles and 2 SMG's anyway. Also remember that money is non-accumulative, which means money is meaningless outside the loadout screen.

Another option of course is to make all character models on equal ground, then split them up as classes where you have snipers, soldiers, medics, whatever.. This can also make things more complicated than need be because of what I mentioned above- not to mention adding in restrictions to weapons and classes. Balancing it all would take a lot of work.

It all boils down to every realistic game is going to be a clone of another game in people's eyes. We're taking this approach because it's simple and it's still fun, and it's what we want to see. We're going to give it a serious chance before we decide it's just not going to work- which means that if it flops, we're open to suggestions.. It also means we can't please everyone. Some people like the TF style class system, some don't. Some like the way RB6 plays, some don't. Maybe after 3.0 and we've got the weapons balanced rather well, we can look at character classes as an option for people. So if they want to play with a class system they can, but if not, than they don't.

I do encourage everyone to discuss this if they feel the need, though it shouldn't lead to hard feelings- just know that this is the system we're going to use for 3.0, and we'll take it from there. In the end, it's just a game- and guess what, we'll all probably move on to something else when the final chapter of Inf is written.

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Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Corin
5th Mar 2000, 12:52 AM
What about making all the classes, specialforces?

SEAL's, Airborne Rangers, Green Berets, etc.

Each would have one ability that surpassed the other abilities, SEAL's would swim faster than others, AirRangers could fall farther(not much) than others, Green Berets could hold their run for a bit longer during a sprint; there are others.

That would be pretty cool, every class would be the same, save 1 crucial and, hopefully easy(? Your dept. to say if it would be difficult. Is it?) difference.

Warren
5th Mar 2000, 02:38 AM
It is entirely possible to create a class system with limitations after 3.0 that would be an optional style of gameplay, but don't hold your breath. All depends on what kind of time we have, and if the project still has potential by then. Hell, Epic just threw a wrench in our plans with the news that skeletal animation will get included in the 407 patch.. o_0 it's a Good Thing of course, just means we gotta reorganize so we can take advantage of this awesome feature.

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Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

FabulousRex
5th Mar 2000, 07:05 AM
Well, some one out-posted me, this will have to change /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank ya'll though, the intelligent responses simply reinforce my theory: we are'nt ALL 12yr olds, but it don't mean we have to act like them. Thanks also for clearing-up the 'reseting' thing, I can now rest easier at night.

BTW, Warren; I am planning on getting into the mod development scene by learning how to code (hopefully). So perhaps by the time INF-3.0 is released, I could work solely on a 'class' system, I would'nt mind focusing on that. -IF-, of course, I can get a blessing from the upper heirarchy....

[This message has been edited by FabulousRex (edited 03-05-2000).]