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View Full Version : Focusing on diverse battle elements vs wide range of specific elements


Resocluvar
29th Mar 2000, 07:33 AM
***This is not a new weapon suggestion post***

Let me clarify before I begin. What this means is: If you could only add 3 class types in a game, its better to let them be armored guy, fast guy, and stealthy guy; rather than slow guy, medium speed guy, and fast guy.

Instead of concentrating on giving a diverse range of options to something very one dimensional, like carefully modeling the differences between an M4, M16, and AR15 (only examples) with their ballistics, accuracy, and so on, the thing to realize is that these guns are very similar compared to a bazooka vs a handgun, and it translates into very shallow gameplay vs the latter idea; you simply can't apply a large range of tactics with this selection.

This could apply to player classes, weapons, anything. In the incomplete and test phases of this mod, offering just single samples of of very different weapon types is a good way to keep interest high and test further potential. The current selection of weapons were excellently diversified in abilities and were well chosen to show the possibilities of future variations of such weaponry.

I wish to just put in a list of more gameplay factors that can be inserted in samples for future versions that will greatly widen the dynamics of gameplay:

1. Accuracy factors: Maybe make some weapons very inaccurate when fired at the hip and very accurate when shoulder fired. Some weapons could be difficult for certain classes with low strength or endurance to handle. Some weapons could be accurate on the first shot but have super extreme kickback. Have some weapons with extremely long focusing time after stopping to aim. Have some weapons take a very long time to bring up to aiming position, or to set up to fire.

2. Armor factors: Maybe have some armor that is good at handling trama impacts, and others good at stopping penetrating rounds, or a heavy combination of the both. You could even have light armor, really heavy armor, high coverage armor, and so on.

3. Power factors: Maybe have some shot types do high trama blows that greatly throw off the accuracy or stun the target, and highly penetrating rounds which dont cause much or any shock, yet go through armor easily and induce rapid bleeding.

4. Other factors: Maybe Have some weapons be ULTRA silent, like a silenced 22, which could kill a guy standing right by you and you wouldnt notice. Have a diverse amount of vision modes: night vision scopes(which only work on sniper rifles), night vision binoculars(only works without weapon up and aiming), all types of flashlights, and even nightvision headgear(allow firing of any weapon type and nightvision to be active, but a flashlight will blind you if shone in your eyes while wearing them). You could also try throwing in smoke grenades, firecrackers, dummy machine gun mimic machines(a project of my father, dont ask /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, flash suppressors(without one, the nightvision wouldnt work with a weapon), poison dart guns(I might be going too far), heavy stun type weapons, which slow you down and harm your vision, but dont do any severe damage,,, thats all for the moment...

5. Class factors: Some classes can be slow but able to carry a lot of weapons without being slowed down, and even handle big kick weapons far more accurately. Another class idea would be a guy with high dexterity, which can get more overall accuracy from all the weapons, then you could add a really fast and silent guy, classes with lots of endurance, maybe a midget class that is super small and hard to hit and see, heh.


The team already started on the right track, you gave us 2 sniper rifles, 2 auto type weapons, grenades, grenade launcher, and bazooka, along with a handgun. Keep up the great work, and never be afraid to try anything radically new and different, its what makes a game fun!

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Resocluvar...who?

Resocluvar
29th Mar 2000, 07:51 AM
Uh oh, i got more stuff to add...

Further class factors: maybe have some classes resist injury better, which allows them to maintain their move speed, live longer with higher loss of blood, maintain accuracy better, and anything else while injured or bleeding or stunned.;; Some classes could bring their weapon up to aim much faster, not much, but something new.;;

Further power factors: Along with penetration and shock, a "pain" factor could be considered when being hit, which hasn't anything to do with either penetration or shock(caused by an interferrence with nerves), but factors in as a shock effect when a class or armor is subjected to being vulnerable to it. Pain could also just come about from being hit with many rounds at once, an advantage to be added when pumping lots of small rounds into a person.

Ammo factors: Maybe have some rifles possess great qualities in all respects, but make their ammo very heavy, or very scarce, or very expensive, or very volatile(such that dropping from an edge too far could set it off on your body). You could even imagine a low quality gun that has absolutely plentiful, light, and stable ammo(how about a 22 minigun? mwahahaha!).

Hope this is all worth something..

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Resocluvar...who?

Bad.Mojo
29th Mar 2000, 07:56 AM
The classes will be defined in the way that the load out is handled. Some weapons and accesories will 'weigh' more than others, and thus have an adverse effect on your speed. For example, taking only a suppressed MP5 will make you much faster than the player who loads up on an M4, AE, Robar, several frag grenades, and some bouncing betties. The "classes" of the game will be designated by what YOU choose to play, and what you prefer your play style to be. If you want to be the sluggish, heavily armed and armoured guy, then so be it. If you want to be the light weight, silent, quiet killer you can do that too.

For more information concerning these and other fine topics, I suggest you point'n'click www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm) and www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm)

Further information can be found at your local library. Bad information can be found from the fat redneck that lives on your street and nicknamed his Remington "Bertha". I don't suggest talking to him.

Snakeye
29th Mar 2000, 12:09 PM
After all I know there will be different ammo types in 3.0 - so FMJ or AP will penetrate armour better and JHP will cause more damage..or so..
The classes were voted, and most of us, me too, decided we would prefer classes based upon the equipment chosen rather than prefabricated classes.
The different aiming abilities I'd appreciate too, maybe there could be some RPG-type settings for aiming, strenght speed aso..
The size thing was already discussed - the team thought it would only make players cheating online, making themselves as small as possible..though I like the idea, especially for botmatches..

After all I doubt most of these ideas will make it into 3.0, if they aren't already planned..

BTW: Killing someone with a .22? This is no Hollywood movie - I think you'd have to empty your mag into a guy before he dies from a .22..

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

29th Mar 2000, 12:25 PM
New INF quote 'so, uhhh, its like TFC?'

Most of what youve suggested is covered in the roadmap accuracy, armor, power, and as far as player classes go, they will be implemented- by you and your skills as you play the game /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The general consensus in a poll taken on the INF site is that people do not want classes that limit them, so no classes.

Sorry you posted a novel before you read the roadmap.
CC


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Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/

29th Mar 2000, 12:25 PM
New INF quote 'so, uhhh, its like TFC?'

Most of what youve suggested is covered in the roadmap accuracy, armor, power, and as far as player classes go, they will be implemented- by you and your skills as you play the game /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The general consensus in a poll taken on the INF site is that people do not want classes that limit them, so no classes.

Sorry you posted a novel before you read the roadmap.
CC


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Want to be an Infiltrator? Get the goods at:
http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/

Resocluvar
29th Mar 2000, 10:16 PM
My post wasn't about listing *new* features to add to the game, it was about STRESSING those features specifically in small doses for the early versions of the game. I've read the roadmap SEVERAL times, and the concept of my post had much to do with what I read from it. The part about bleeding and getting shocked was an idea I added because of what I read from the roadmap. The gist of what I was saying regarding that, for example, is make certain weapons have severe shock and low penetration, while other should or could have low shock but severe penetration. Its about stressing the gameplay factors, its about how you add them, not just adding them.

Snakeeyes, 22LR weapons are actually exceptional weapons. I'm certainly not going to suggest adding one, but my ideal warweapon is a 10/22 ruger, 22LR. 22's go through many types of kevelar just because of the sheer small size of the round. It is also even more dangerous to be hit with than a 44 magnum in most cases. 22LR's, when they enter your body, like to "bounce around", following viens right into your liver, bouncing off bones and going on a crazy path that does horrific damage. Even if you couldnt target the torso because of a trama plate the target might be wearing, a shot to the neck or head easily proves lethal, and this is an idea I thought would be good for an ultra stealthy weapon, it would take prescision to use, but it would add another gameplay element. 22's are also very effecient if you are a good shot, considering they are dirt cheap and VERY light, you can carry well over 3000 rounds on your back EASY. The extremely low kick of the weapons based on 22's make them very deadly machine guns, there is no other machine gun you can name where it will be possible to place 20 shots within a 3 inch grouping. 22's are NOT wimpy weapons by any stretch of the imagination.

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Resocluvar...who?

Mr. T
29th Mar 2000, 11:23 PM
uh oh. You spelled his name wrong. I'm sure he will be along to show you the correct spelling. (that really bugs him) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snakeye
30th Mar 2000, 03:25 AM
Yep, Mr. T is right!
SNAKEYE <- with only one 'e' before the 'y'!

What kind of bullet type do you use with a .22LR? I shot .22 quite often, on rifles and pistols, and always had lead bullets. About the accuracy I agree; the .22 is one of the most accurate rounds available - that combined with a low kickback makes it well suited for sustained fire.
The only thing I cannot totally believe is the damage potential. At first I really doubt a .22 lead bullet could go through kevlar vests. I'm really no wound ballistic expert, but I also don't think that a .22 has enough energy to bounche around in a body.
Maybe our forum expert, *GRYPHON!!!*, could bring in some information about this; or you could simply state where you got your information from..
At last:
I don't think a .22 is weak; any weapon can be deadly if used correctly. I heard about a boy killing his 6 year old sister with a BB shot into the heart - accidantly of course.
I just can't imagine this weapon is that powerful..

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

Resocluvar
30th Mar 2000, 07:46 AM
I would like to think I know a little about ballistics, considering I have a very, very close friend who is a gundealer, but often he contradicts himself. a few demonstration tapes on ballistics helped me grasp it a little, but I would never advocate anything I say as absolute, as tons of false rumors abound.

One of the biggest myths I learned to expell from my mind is bullets have virtually zero actual "knockdown power", the type you see in bronson movies where the badguys go flying backwards. No bullet has that much energy, and physics state this clearly in that "every force is met with an equal and opposite force in the other direction" law, which means any gun that actually knocks a target down would actually have to knock down the person firing the gun for that much energy to be accurate.

The true disabling power of guns comes from where they hit and what they hit. Bones, nerves, vital organs like the heart and brain, or maybe lungs, is what would qualify as shocking or disabling a person. Loss of blood is a slower disabling effect.

So, I'd estimate that bullets like the 44 magnum and 45 auto seem to inflict far more disabling blows due to the sheer size of the bullet, as well as the energy shockwave that ballons the flesh open when it enters the body, the area of effect of which has a much higher chance to hit or affect something vital.

Therefore, many shots in a tight grouping around the heart region of the body would probably qualify a 22 rifle able to do about as much damage as a 44.
As far as the ability of 22's to bounce around the body, this is something I hear constantly reiterated by my gun friend(his names dave, enough with the faceless intro, heh). I hear it is the sheer low energy of the bullet itself that causes 22's to behave so erratically inside the body. 22's dont have the energy to just push through any or as many obstacles as heavier bullets. It is therefore very concievable to think they would bounce off bones or stronger tissues rather than both break them and continues on their path. It takes the path of least resistance.

Well, this seems a bit long winded, sorry if this is boring.

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Resocluvar...who?

Snakeye
30th Mar 2000, 08:10 AM
Not boring at all!
You've reminded me of some things I nearly forgot;
But first, the energy doesn't cause a person to be knocked down - the energy causes the damage; the impulse (p=m*v) causes the knockdown effect.
With a little physic knowledge you'll find out, that energy is much more dependent from speed than from mass - therefore .22 or 5.56 can cause quite a damage compared to a bullet with double weight but only half speed.
In impulse terms they'd be equal - although you'll probably cause less damage with the slower, heavyier one, the knockdown effect is the same.
The 'bounching' thing I've already heard of. At least nearly; slow bullets tend to move around hard things - like bones - rather than wnadering through them. In civil war etc bullets sometimes took curves rather than going straight through the body.
Considering the .22 low velocity it seems probable to me, although damage increase will be marginal; especially since bone fragments can cause considerable damage.

After all you can still fire 1 .44 shot faster than 6 .22 - so I'd still prefer a 5.56 for combat; just because of speed..

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

Resocluvar
30th Mar 2000, 09:00 AM
Very insightful Snakeye. I'd like to know more details about the knockdown affect.
Is it more of a bodily reaction to nerves being hit?
One thing I heard about the ballon bullets cause when they enter the body is the exaggeration of the damage they do. It is often assumed that the balloned tissue is destroyed, but this isn't supposed to be true, it merely collapses inward again, doing about a tenth of the damage thought originally. I've always thought, though, that having your insides balloned for even a split second would surely be agonizing or at least hit some nerves, or disorient something. What truths do you know about this? I dont know too much about the reaction bodies have to bullets, compared to how much I know of just how bullets move(a much simpler science).

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Resocluvar...who?

Bad.Mojo
30th Mar 2000, 10:24 AM
Being somebody that's been shot, I can tell you one thing. It is definitely not a nervous reaction. In fact, the human body is incredibly adept at that. Pain is there to let you know there's a problem, not kill you with it. A .22 lodged in my shoulder blade didn't really phase me for about two minutes or so, until I stopped running, thus decreasing the flow of blood, and with it the flow of adrenaline. Feeling it rub on bone was the real bitch though. However, alot of the stopping power is due to velocity. That's why suppresors are only very effective for CQB, because they reduce muzzle velocity by something like 500 fps, on average. Alot of the stopping power is with caliber, as well. In general, a fast moving, large caliber round will do the most damage (obviously.) Typically these are rifle rounds, since they contain more grain. The actually knockdown power is pretty much present in two senses.

Physics, like Snakeye brought up, tends to tell us that something that is in motion wants to remain in motion, which means that when the slug impacts, its going to push the particular part of whatever object it meets until it is brought to no velocity. The equal-and-opposite reaction equation is fulfilled. When you're firing, the weapon is exerting (just as a quick example here) say, 1000 psi on a 1 ounce round (i know, but I'm trying to keep it basic for example's sake). In return, the firearm takes some of that force (the recoil,) your muscles take some of the force (the recoil compensation) and then your skeleton dampens the rest of the force. The real doozy comes when the bullet impacts though, because, getting back to what I mentioned, the 1ounce round is now traveling bloody fast, and its going to keep wanting to travel fast. Your bones (for example) which have the density of hard wood, but are much smaller in comparison to a tree, will take on that tiny round in an area. That area will continue to be pushed until the round is satisfied that it has reached 0 velocity. Now, since your bones are about the density of hard wood, they CAN stop a bullet. But since your bones are also much thinner in comparison, they disperse pressure much more innefectively, and so can result in you having a damaged skeletal system, which will result in you crumpling to the ground (structural integrity is compromised,) or tipping over, recoiling in the opposite direction of the shot (this is from your bone being pushed, and taking your skeleton with it, upsetting your centre of gravity and toppling you to the ground.)

As for bone and tissue damage, JHP will do more tissue damage, FMJ will do much, much more bone damage, and flechettes are just cruel. At least, that's my understanding since JHP is primarily for stopping power, and stopping power involves tissue disruption. FMJ is meant for piercing, and thus would be more likely to shatter bone but leave a clean, surgical wound.

Take this advice with a grain of salt though, because my direct knowledge (other than a punk kid with a .22) is pretty much non-existant. Most of what I said is pieced together from half-assed medical and physics knowledge, and my admittedly lacking knowledge in the field of ballistic sciences.

Snakeye
30th Mar 2000, 11:58 AM
The knockdown effect is the same you described as knockdown force.
It just describes, that the likeliness of being knocked down to the ground by a bullet is a product of it's velocity and mass.
p=m*v ..p=impulse
..m=mass
..v=velocity
The impulse therefore is only for the 'mechnical' effect of a bullet.
Damage is work, and energy is a potential(of a bullet..) to to work.
So for the damage the kinetic energy of a bullet is much more interesting;
E=m*v²/2 ..E=energy(kinetic)
..m=mass
..v=velocity
easily visible is, that energy depends much more on velocity than on mass; if you double the mass, enrgy doubles too; but if you double velocity, energy grows by the factor four!
But wound ballistics is much more than physic will ever be able to describe; the influences of projectile type, wether the bullet goes through the body or remains there, what exactly the bullet hits etc play an equal important factor.
Luckily I was never struck by a bullet, but my father was involved in a hunting accident(please no hunting discussion!) and was hit by a 6.5? 7? 7.62? bullet fragment, which had passed through our cars trunk first. He fell due to a hit of his right upper leg bone, which was heavily fragmented by the bullet piece.
He survived it quite well, and is even able to do sports again..for those who want to know..
The most important fact is, despite being unable to walk any distance, he had still been able to use any weapon - according to himself. If he had been in war, he could have taken many enemy soldiers before bleeding to death.
As general information, my father is MD, so he knows what he's talking about..

After all I know I don't think that any game could reflect real life in terms of wound ballistic. If you've bad luck, you get a .22 and die from it half a minute later.
If you're more lucky, like that female terrorist I read about, you survive 9!! 9mm Luger shots into your body.(don't ask me how she did..)

I still hope never to get struck by a bullet, and seriously hope noone of you will..

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

Bad.Mojo
30th Mar 2000, 12:22 PM
I think I said what you said that you said I said, and I figured it was kinetics, but I tried to stick to lay terms. I generally have an idea as to what you're talking about and what it all means (I'm a bright chap) except that it confuses the hell out of me (equations were never what made me bright...) Its too true though, there are so many slight factors that can change if you live or die. I recall reading (in a book, unfortunately, though I do recall the title, Goombata [the story of John Gotti]) that a mafia capo was shot in the temple at point blank, and the bullet passed around his skull, staying under the skin, making an "olive wreath" effect (think that thingy on Julius Caesar's head,) until it passed out at approximately the same place on the other side of his head and leaving an interesting scar. That is luck.

As for bad luck, well, with a .22, it was from a fair distance, so I'd have to be a gelatenous pile of goop to have sustained anything more than superficial scarring. Gun shot scars look very different now. Mine basically looks like a small circle of flesh was boiled on my back (from cautarizing the wound.) Worse yet, they wouldn't even give me a local until after they were done with the heat gun (as a painkiller, wtf?!) Crazy ER procedures and crap, I don't understand them.

Snakeye
30th Mar 2000, 12:50 PM
Sorry about the equations..
I'm studying Electronic Engineering, and in the first semesters we're taught a lot of basic physic knowledge. You also need loads of equations in electronics, so I'm quite used to them.
Still I think these two I posted are easily understandable, for anybody who went to school, and show the main difference between impulse and energy quite well.
Therefore one also can understand why lightweight bullets don't tend to knock one down, but still can do an enormous ammount of damage.
The main problem about any equation is, that it's just a model, and does not really reflect real life; that's why it's better to fire two shots at an enemy, than calculating where to hit him with the first, and find out, that your equation didn't work.

There's only one real law, murphy's law;
'everything that can go wrong, will'

addidtion by Snakeye
'even the things that can't go wrong, will go wrong'

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

Bad.Mojo
30th Mar 2000, 10:25 PM
Oh the equations made perfect sense once I reread them a few times. Its just I'm not used to seeing equations. I tried my best ot abandon them.

Equations are really very poor models, but they do do an adequate job of representing the physics of two variables in an isolated vacuum, ie: something you'd never see in real life. Its like saying two objects of different mass fall at the same rate. Yes, its true, but then that rate is affected by things like air resistance, rise, drag, yak yak yak. Just not very practical for anything, really. I think Murphy's Law is something actually proven in life, rather than some sarcastic catch phrase. Face of the matter is, their are way to many variables in life to be introduced at the time of occurence that can be accounted for. Nothing works the way it should. Ever.

Resocluvar
30th Mar 2000, 10:28 PM
Thanks you two for clarifying things for me further.

Deadly effects was a ballistics tape I watched, showing the real life examples of what bullets do. It showed tons of examples in the past where people, who werent on drugs, had been involved in a shootout and were able to fight effectively even when shot several times. It also showed the frightening effectiveness of bullet proof vests with trama plates(to spread the force), in a sister tape that went along with it. A demonstration with live ammo of various types (223 all the way to 44 magnum and 308) where firing point blank at volenteers wearing the appropriate vests that would stop them. Not only did they take it with great ease, they even stood on one leg to show how balanced they could stay even with hit. When it showed a guy shooting himself point blank with a 44 magnum, I saw he needed to use some newspaper for padding, apparently, 44 magnums will bruise you badly even with a vest on, from the sheer fast impact of the shock, even though brief, is enough to crush tissue.

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Resocluvar...who?

Mr. T
30th Mar 2000, 11:44 PM
Mojo, things just work the way they do, at that's that. I don't mean to sound like I'm stating the obvious to insult your intelligence. I'm just saying that believing something 'should' work one way or another is just our minds trying to develop some sort of rhyme and reason out of something where there is really little of that to be found. Order simplifies things to a point that allows us to understand conceptual ideas with greater ease and efficiency. Equations exclude a large number of variables intentionally to allow for an easier understanding of a particular conceptual representation. They also allow us to predict certain situations by extrapolating the concept to represent a wide array of various scenarios, that would be very difficult to visualize otherwise. But I'm sure you probably know that already. I just wanted to do some blabbering. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bad.Mojo
31st Mar 2000, 05:43 AM
Like the time I licked the metal pole in the winter, but my tongue didn't stick to it so I still had to go back to class?

as an edited in post script: I think its very funny that we as people try to rationalize life down to an order, when all the universe does is try to revert to chaos. If you take a look at the natural world, everything was orderly with a few species around, and then more species came up and they all tried eating each other, which didn't work, so they struck out a delicate balance, and then God got all pissed off and threw man into the mix. Speaking of which, sometimes I think I'm just God's science project, but then I remember I never laughed at any of my science projects.

[This message has been edited by Bad.Mojo (edited 03-31-2000).]