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View Full Version : Gryphon steps to the podium...


20th Feb 2000, 03:12 AM
My suggestions:

- change ALL text that says CLIPS to MAGAZINES. A clip holds several cartridges together for charging into a MAGAZINE, which is an ammunition feeding device. The MP5 does not have a CLIP. The M16 does not have a CLIP. The M9 does not have a CLIP. They have a MAGAZINE. Also, BULLETS are not CARTRIDGES. The BULLET is what gets fired from the barrel. The CARTRIDGE is the entire round.

Ahh, that feels better. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- I imagine this is going to be done if different ammo is in the works, although I should mention it anyways. The in-game text should be changed to better reflect what you're picking up. Instead of "MP5 clip" it should read like "MP5/10 30-round magazine, 10mm ball", "M16A2 30-round magazine, 5.56x45mm M995 AP", "M9 15-round magazine, 9mm NATO ball", etc. If you guys need specific designations for ammo, etc. just let me know and I'll look it up.

- The AKSU-74, by definition, is 5.45x39mm. Why? Because it's got a "74" hanging off it. To make it 7.62x39mm, re-designate your model "AKSU-47". Or better yet, "AKS-47U Krinkov". When a magazine is picked up, it should say "AK 30-round magazine, 7.62x39mm M43 ball". Why not have it say it's specifically for the Krinkov? Well if you guys do put in another AK in 7.62x39mm, you can use the same magazine in both guns and everyone would know it.

That's all for now. I'll be back a little later with more designations, letters, and numbers to annoy you guys with. /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Corin
21st Feb 2000, 12:28 AM
That certainly is alot of words to read while you are dying from being preoccupied.

I really don't think it matters all that much considering you can look at the bottom of your screen to see if you are low on ammo.

Anyway, this is a game, not a weapons orientation class. It just seems like a waste of time fixing something that doesn't need to be.

21st Feb 2000, 12:50 AM
The idea behind this mod is REALISM. At the very least, proper terminology should be used. What kind of game are you playing that it runs so fast you don't have time to read what kind of ammunition you're picking up?

Look through the armory again and count how many weapons there are. Then consider that there are going to be multiple ammunition types. Each weapon has its own magazine. Multiple types of ammo in multiple types of magazines. If it's all too overwhelming for you, there's always plenty of vanilla UT servers to pulse, shock, and redeem on.

I posted SUGGESTIONS, not demands. If the Inf team deems them worthy of implementation, that's great. If they want to make changes or not use them at all, it's their perogative. Personally I'd like to hear what THEY think, after all it's THEIR mod.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

RaekwoN
21st Feb 2000, 01:57 AM
Well...

Being a team member I guess that makes me worthy of throwing in my two bob.

Some of what you say Gryphon rings true. We should change CLIPS to MAGAZINES etc... However, when it comes down to it, no-one (besides you) really cares what the very particulars of the calibres of the rounds being fired are. The average Infiltrator will think like this...

Press mouse button, bullet come out, enemy dies...

They are not concerned with wether or not the AK version they are firing is not an AKSU-74 but a AKS-47U firing 7.62x39mm rounds...

Fair enough to suggest changing the clips/magazines thing, but I feel (note that this is not the general concencus of the team) that detailing round calibres is a little excessive.

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RaekwoN
Infiltration Level Designer
Visit RaekwoN Maps (http://www.planetunreal.com/raekwon)

thornz
21st Feb 2000, 02:27 AM
"What kind of game are you
playing that it runs so fast you don't have time to read what kind of ammunition you're picking up?"

well, the only thing I'm really concerned with is whether it fits the gun I'm using or not...

Warren
21st Feb 2000, 03:53 AM
Gryphon is right on this issue. We are shooting for realism. *cough* no pun intended.. For me, it's similiar to any movie ever made with some form of combat using guns in our current day and age.. basically if they don't do it right, no matter how good the plot, it ruins it for me. So essentially, the minor details like accurate nomenclature may not mean squat to the average Joe Frag, but if it pleases that extra 5% of the community, and it's for a good cause, than dammit Jim, it oughta be there.

Anyway, we'll fix it as soon as we get time. Thanks for bringing it up, Gryphon!

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Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Snakeye
21st Feb 2000, 06:03 AM
I totally agree with Gryphon.
The correct designation for the ammo always brings up a better feeling. Especially when using .30/7.62 ammo, because there are many different types (30-06, 30-30, 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and some Pistols use 7.62 ammo)
By the way:
The SIG550-Series officialy does not use 5.56x45 but 5.6x45(at least in the swiss army..). In fact both ammo types are the same - just the designation used is different because of some neutrality stuff..

I also think that good films with only minor errors lose some of their effect.
My best example is 'Die Hard 2'(or was it 'Die Harder'? - the german titles vary)
The Glock was designated as GERMAN!!!! weapon invisible to metal detection systems(which ain't f****** true..)

It can't be that hard to change some ammo names?

Snakeye

21st Feb 2000, 06:11 AM
Thanks Warren. Like I said, they're simply suggestions and you guys are free to do what you will with them. If putting that much text on the screen is too overwhelming, by all means shorten it.

What I think everyone else seems to be missing is that if you have 16 players running around the map, each with two different weapons which each has two different ammo types (say ball and AP), that means you've got **64** different magazine types that can litter the field at any one time. Unless the game is configured to only pick up the ammunition that is relevant to your weapon, it would be nice to know what you've picked up.

Again, if you guys need help with anything technical just let me know.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Beppo
21st Feb 2000, 09:11 AM
should be no problem...

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Lead-Programmer of the Infiltration (http://www.planetunreal.com/Infiltration) Team

Beppo's (http://www.planetunreal.com/beppo) ControledDeath

Warren
21st Feb 2000, 02:00 PM
And now that you mention that Gryphon, players will have the option to pick up ANY type of ammo- but of course the game code will only let you mate ammo that will fit to the weapon. Also, as many of you may already know, all items you wish to pick up won't be automatic- you will have the option to do so.

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Warren
Project Coordinator
i n f i l t r a t i o n
http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration

Questions? Check out our Roadmap (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/roadmap.htm).
Then check out our FAQ (http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/3.0/faq.htm).

Billdog
21st Feb 2000, 02:46 PM
It should be short, so their's no reason to say it's a mag if it follows the general way we write mags in. Without to much thought I think "2 M16 30-rounds" should do for the ammo and "M16A2 5.56 N" for the weapons.

21st Feb 2000, 10:24 PM
Billdog, I think you're one of the ones missing my point.

There are going to be DIFFERENT AMMO TYPES. In my humble opinion, it would be beneficial to know what kind of ammo you're picking up so you don't use the wrong kind for the job. I agree it doesn't have to be long, although if I pick up ball and am expecting AP, I've got a rude surprise awaiting.

Here's an idea, how about separating the text onto two lines? Put the main information on the first line that most players would need, such as the type of magazine they're picking up. Below that, maybe in smaller text, put the type of ammunition picked up so those that care to know, will have it. Example:

M16A2/M4 30-round magazine
5.56mm NATO M855 62gr ball

SIG-551 20-round magazine
5.56mm NATO M995 52gr AP

AK 30-round magazine
7.62x39mm M43 123gr ball

M9 15-round magazine
9x19mm NATO M882 112gr ball

P90 50-round magazine
5.7x28mm SS190 31gr ball

Etc...... Sound better?

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
21st Feb 2000, 10:51 PM
2 cents:

why NOT put in the specifics of the ammo? will it somehow hinder gameplay? no it won't, it will only add to the realism, put it in.

One thing, will it be possible to mix ammo types in a single magazine? What detrimental effects (if any) does this have in real life?

22nd Feb 2000, 03:29 AM
Derek, you can mix ammo all you want IRL although I suspect that's taking it pretty far for Inf. The most common way to mix-n-match ammo is with ball and tracer for machine guns. Usually ammo is linked 4 ball, 1 tracer, although I've also seen 9 ball, 1 tracer.

It's recommended by some to load your magazine so the last 3 rounds are tracers. This serves as a visual aid to tell you you're going to need to switch magazines soon. Personally I can't see it being a real great idea for two reasons. 1) tracers don't just tell you where your fire's going, they also tell the enemy where your fire's coming from; 2) in CQB the tracers would already be buried in a wall, table, body, etc. before you even SAW the trace.

If there was going to be an option for mixed ammo in Inf I suspect it would be for the SAW only, as 4:1 ball/tracer. But let's see what the big guys have to say on this issue first.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
22nd Feb 2000, 01:22 PM
One question, tracers are bullets covered with phosphorous or something correct? The only difference being that they light up right? So if someone shot you with a tracer, you'd still have a bullet in your gut correct?

In games, tracers usually don't do any "damage" at all, so thats why I ask.

Woolf
23rd Feb 2000, 07:21 AM
Derek.

A tracer is a "ordinary" bullet with a magnesium "pellet" in a cavity in the back of the it.
Its purpose is to see your hits and bullet arc when firering with a GPMG (general purpose mashine gun) or such.
It can also be used to tell your friends where the enemy is, and last it has a incendiary effect.
As the bullet has the tracer on its back its hard for an enemy nere by the bullet arc to see it. And the tracer usually lights up a couple of hundred meters from the shooter.
So the most common thing is that the shooter gets compromised by the gunflash not the tracer.
/
DE "Sweden"

Derek
23rd Feb 2000, 12:43 PM
Magnesium huh, I've seen that burn, I would have thought it would be something colored, but that's me, the only experience I have is from games and a cop uncle with a berreta.

I'm sad.

23rd Feb 2000, 02:45 PM
Woolf, that is 100% incorrect. Tracers are not made with magnesium or phosphorus, this is the biggest misconception. Tracers are loaded with a pyrotechnic composition in the base, composed of an oxidizer which typically an alkaline earth metal peroxide, magnalium (magnesium-aluminum alloy) as a fuel, a colorizer such as oxalates, chlorine donors, and binders. It is covered with a prime which aids in ignition and also delays the main trace ignition until the bullet is several meters downrange.

First off, tracers are not incendiary. True they've started more grassfires than many shooters care to remember, but there's a reason military bullets specifically have incendiary compositions built in as well as tracer compositions. Secondly, the only way you're NOT going to see the trace is if the bullet is fired directly at your face. Tracers can be very bright and WILL be seen from any angle. To suggest that they do not compromise the shooter whatsoever is ludicrous. The trace composition does not light up a few hundred meters from the shooter, that would make the bullet all but useless at the <300m range where almost all infantry encounters take place. Typical tracer ignition starts anywhere from 10m to 70m downrange, depending on how the bullet is manufactured.

Derek, if you're shot with a tracer bullet while it's still burning, I think the tracer composition is the least of your problems. /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif At best it will cauterize the wound with the heat, at worst it will set your clothes on fire. But since tracer compositions typically do not burn very long, and the fact that there's little composition per bullet, I don't think it's a major concern to most grunts. They're more concerned with where the lead portion of the bullet is going to go.

See my site, The PFP Database (http://come.to/pfp), and look under Tracer Compositions for several formulas.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
23rd Feb 2000, 04:26 PM
Holy ****, Gryphon, that consequences page is really something.

I was expecting the typical "hey kids, this stuff is dangerous, you could cause serious bodily harm", but no, you go out and *show* what happens.

In the end though, its a good thing its there, I'm sure it serves its purpose.

Question 1: The first pic, with the guy with a sparkler container lodged in his leg, it wasn't cardboard was it?

Question 2: You sufficiently trauamatized me into asking: Are the smoke comps too likely to blow digits off my fingers?

-Derek

23rd Feb 2000, 09:33 PM
Geez, I'm starting to think I should tone down the Consequences page. Nearly everyone that comments on it gets so scared off that I think I'm inadvertently turning people away from the amazing world of pyrotechnics. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

To answer your question, some of the smoke compositions can be hazardous. Without experience I'd stay away from any mixes containing hexachloroethane, zinc, or potassium chlorate. If you want to experiment a bit, mix some potassium nitrate and sugar 50/50 by weight and ignite it. I found this ratio to give a good balance of flame and smoke, and it's incredibly easy and non-toxic.

Some dubious texts would have you melt this composition together to form "candy mix", but do NOT do this unless you know what you're doing. There are hundreds of cases of people trying this and having it ignite on them. The only benefit of melting the components together is that it has a much smaller flame envelope, and that it can be cast into rocket casings (yes, KNO3/sugar/sulfur makes quite a powerful rocket propellant).

As to the container driven into that guy's knee, I kinda doubt it's cardboard. The first three rules to remember about pyrotechnics:

1. NO METAL
2. NO METAL
3. NO METAL

The consequences of failing to observe these particular rules is illustrated quite well on that page. /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Derek
24th Feb 2000, 12:50 AM
The consequences page is "rough" but I think it is adequate, the only problem would be that lack of an "intermediary" page between traumatizing your public and letting them into the wonderful world of pyro.

I would suggest a page after the consequences page outlining the importance of using actual brains when dealing with pyrotechnics, possibly outlining safety procedures, and suggestion "newbie" recepies, like the KNO3 and sucrose smoke comp.

As far as my personal experience goes, I've played with with the sugar smoke comp for too much, and I want to move on, I've made some decent BP as well, using my ball-mill of course.

I really haven't bothered with pressing the BP into anything that would blow up, but I know it burns nicely with zero slag in a good batch.

Now that thats out of the way, what particular smoke comp would you recommend as the next step?

BTW, I bought a 50 lb bag of KN03 a while back, and I have about 30 lbs left... (Thats the only size I could find)


-Derek

PsychoYoda
24th Feb 2000, 03:44 AM
Well... I uh... just checked out that Consequences page about the pyrotechnics...
Excuse my language, but all I have to say about that is... HOLY ****IN ****! I'm never touching even a sparkler again!!!!!

Billdog
24th Feb 2000, 06:17 AM
Why would their be any reason to tell the weight, it's ball type or military designation of the bullets, won't the right weapon(s) and max containment do? ie M16A2/M4/M249 30-round and M16A2/M4/M249 30-round AP

24th Feb 2000, 08:15 AM
Derek, if you'd like to try a more advanced smoke composition, check out the colored smokes that use potassium chlorate. Because they use such a small amount it's pretty safe to handle, although the dyes are usually toxic and VERY messy. A good starting point would be to order some pre-mixed smoke mix from Skylighter (http://www.skylighter.com). They have a few different colors, and all you need to do is add the required amount of KClO3, press into a tube, and ignite. No mess and less hassle, the smoke mix is good stuff.

PsychoYoda, there's no need to be scared off because of that page. Read the descriptions below the pictures and realize that all of these injuries were the result of ignorance, stupidity, complacency, or a combination of the three. People putting blasting caps in their mouths, manufacturing pipe bombs and explosive booby traps, etc. Just be careful and use some common sense and you'll be fine. Hell, I've been making fireworks for almost 8 years now and I've never had an accident because I take care to know what I'm doing. And believe me, I've worked with some compositions that even experienced professional manufacturers are afraid to touch.

Billdog, I suppose there isn't any reason to include bullet weights, although I figured if there was room for it why not throw it in. If someone doesn't care, they don't need to read it. Those that do, will enjoy knowing the detail is there. Call me a fanatic, I know I would! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Also, I'm not sure if this is valid but it may aid in distinguishing between ammo types by quickly glancing at the numbers to determine what you've picked up. Granted most players not up to speed on bullet weights wouldn't have the first clue about what is what, but if I'm picking up mags and "55" and "62" flash across my screen, I know I've got differences in there somewhere. Just a thought.

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Gryphon/JTF2
Striving for Excellence in Small Arms Data

=JTF2= Infiltration Server Info (http://members.home.net/freedomstoystore)

Hodag
24th Feb 2000, 01:34 PM
Every time I see one of your web pages, I must seek immediate psycho-therapy. I want as much info about my ammunition as I can possibly get--including the Lot number if possible...

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Adam C.
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-- Maybe you can suggest something. As a matter of fact, you do suggest something. You suggest a baboon. I'm sorry I said that; it isn't fair to the other baboons.--
*Rufus T. Firefly*