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The_Fur

Back in black
Nov 2, 2000
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Got a idea for armor in INF, unlike in all those other games where armor is merely a fancy feature that allows you to take less damage, how about in INF it'll let you take NO damage (depending on the type of ammo used). Now to prevent people from becoming mr. Tank and just marching trough fire like it's nothing, how about every hit using stamina and also a hit with a weapon will cause temporary health loss. When you get hit you lose a few HP which you will be able to regain ove time, this to simulate the impact on sot armour, which may knock you out if you get hit often enough. you won't die from the temp damagfe but you may lose consciousness, you could bleed to death in the time you were unconscious if you were wounded, but it all depends.

Crosshairs are for wimps :)

Killing stupid people is not just a hobby, it's a way of life.

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ThunderChunky

L337 Cube H@X0®
Jul 1, 2000
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As I have not been shot, much less while wearing Kevlar, it nonetheless sounds realistic, and thus would seem to be a good idea, assuming that penetration and wounding is properly done (which I have no doubt it would be :) ). Being hit should probably also do something to your momentum, depending on where you are hit.

Heck, if the person is wearing something like Class IV armor (or whatever the really heavy stuff is), I would just plink at them with my Berretta to annoy them and stop them in the middle of an open space (Whereupon I would be promptly shot :D ).

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R-Force

(IF)
Nov 21, 2000
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I'm all for it... I just hate the way armor work in most game, it's silly... If you have a strong enough armor, it should not get damaged by weak firepower, only if the bullet can get through (or partially). Armor are not force field...

And i also want the "momentum" while getting hit, if the bullet don't damage them, at least it should slow them a bit ;). I also like the "temporary damage effect", weak hit tend to hurt, but the pain wear off quickly (as no real damage was done), so it sound realistic...

I know enough to know that I don't know enough
 

HanD_of_DarKNesS

Evil Bastard
May 23, 2000
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AFAIK, the team is planning proper modelling of ballistics vs. armour (why else for the incredibly detailed ballistics model coded into each gun?). Thus, a Beretta fired at a Class IV armoured body, would do very little (if any) damage. As long as the armour itself is properly modelled with the ability to take damage, and lose effectiveness, things'll be cool.

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DEFkon

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Dec 23, 1999
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i dunno... i'm very cautious of a Optional item that makes you impervious to something like 1/5th of all the guns in the armory.

so far the idea that i like the best is a combination of what i've read and posted elsewhere.

basically something like this:
The armor lets you take a realitic percentage of damage from hits. (pistol cal. would be very small amount like 3% or 4% per hit) however after a set amount of abuse the armor is rendered useless BUT you can't take it off or replace it, so your stuck with the bulk limitations. ( i imagine that the armor is worn under your tactical vests or camo or whatever making it nearly impossible to remove easily.)
and if you want to be really anal, you could have the armor lose strenght after getting wet or when you run around alot (kevlar isn't good when it's wet, and if your running around constantly your going to sweat profusely)

I just don't want armor to be something from CS where it's all good, and no drawbacks since INF gives all the cash up front. There has to be just as good enough a reason NOT to have armor as there is to have it, and i don't think cost alone will do it.

boom
 

Farrell

New Member
Oct 19, 2000
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lets be careful here...

Transfer of momentum or making people stop when hit can be a real drag- and would be hard to do realistically. Here's my train of thought on this:

In CS there's a really gay feature that most of the guns have- they freeze the target when they hit. I've died inches from getting behind cover many a time due to this, and boy, it really irks me. The CS system is too simple and makes sacrifices for gameplay. In RL when a bullet strikes you, it can do 2 things: (1) go through you (and thus transfer very little energy to you) or (2) imbed itself in you, transferring all of it's energy to your body. A third option is the round might bounce off, but the energy transfer of that is similar to #2. Depending on your awareness, balance, state of mind, armor/lack thereof, and where the bullet hits, either 1 or 2 is possible with any weapon in INF, also, the effect of a hit can be anything from absolutely nothing to a slight stagger to a fall over backwards to a drop like a rag doll.

So what I'm saying is I'd like to see some variance to the effect of hits. An M9 should plink off heavy armor with no effect (knocking off some stamina is a cool idea though). A DE might also have no effect, but might stagger the target back a step. A full 5-6 MP5 rounds to the chest should mb stagger and drop a heavily armored guy, but not necessarily kill him. An M16 burst to an unarmored target's chest should drop them like a rag doll, with no backwards motion (and if there's another unarmored guy behind that guy, he should get hit too- I think the only gun that goes through multiple players right now is the Robar)... etc etc..

In any case, if we gun for a high level of realism it means alot more coding :)() and some more animations.
 

Lord_Bunker

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Apr 18, 2000
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the larger classes of armor are worn on the outside. i think this should be modled in inf. it's like that in soldier of fortune and is pretty cool. after all how much fun is it to try to shoot peoples hats off. anyway to guns should take damage if they get hit too.

I seem to remember something about armor being modeled so that if you get hit abunch from the front it will lose it's protection in the front but not the rear and vice versa.

Can you spot the sniper?
spotthesniper.jpg

Too Late!
 

RogueLeader

Tama-chan says, "aurf aurf aurf!"
Oct 19, 2000
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I think it should scale depending on the ammo. Like the m9 wouldn't do anything against body armor, but a 5.56 round from a m16 should have a small random chance to penetrate (the armor isn't perfect, after all), like 1 in 5 chance of doing light damage. I like the stamina hit too, but make it really big and for anyone. Even if you arn't wearing armor being shot should cost you stamina, and you should lose like 1/3 of what the total stamina is.

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Chronic

unƒuckwithable
Aug 13, 2000
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No stamina?

Trust me on this, it won't work. When this was put into SF, assholes would shoot their own teammates just to **** up their stamina. Very realistic feature, but it won't work as well as it seems.

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DEFkon

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Dec 23, 1999
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i like the idea of the stanima being effected by taking hits. it'd also be intresting if your stanima bar couldn't be larger than your health bar. That way if you've taken alot of damage, at least that way your mobility is somewhat effected by your current health status. i Always thought it was odd that i could run around like i was completly normal even though i only had 5% of health left in the bar.

boom
 

HanD_of_DarKNesS

Evil Bastard
May 23, 2000
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I actually don't see a problem with taking a stamina hit when a shot is stopped or deflected by the armour. It is realistic in the fact that getting shot would still impart some shock on your body, even if very little.

However this stamina loss should be directly relative to the type of ammo used vs. the type of armour. An M9 shot stopped by Class IV would barely be felt, while a larger round (.45?) would take a larger chunck of stamina.

As well, the stamina loss should NOT BE PERMANENT, but should instead act as standard stamina, and slowly return. Have a guy plug you in the chest 5 times with .45 rounds and you won't be able to run for a short time, while you regain your breath.

I'm actually all for the idea that getting shot takes away stamina (permanently) as well as health. It's relistic to assume that if you've taken a round, you'll be less energetic as you try to cope with the pain and shock.

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R-Force

(IF)
Nov 21, 2000
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If the info i have is right, 5.56 mm bullets tend to bounce off armor when shot from close range (due to bullet tumbling right after being shot) so armor may give you a nice protection against 5.56 mm at close range... 9mm in many case have better penetration, but i think a class iv can stop most type of ammos, even armor piercing ones up to AK's caliber... But then again i'm no expert, i really don't know for sure...

I know enough to know that I don't know enough.

[This message was edited by R-Force on Jan 18, 2001 at 23:12.]
 

DEFkon

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Dec 23, 1999
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i'm not sure but i think the rate at which a bullet tumbles depends on the gun ( the rifle twisting ? ) more so than the actual cal. of the projectile. but i'm just guessing. all i know is that i wouldn't try it. hehehe

boom
 

DEFkon

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Dec 23, 1999
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just did a little bit of research...

level IIIa armor is designed to stop 3 rounds of 9mm within a 1 inch grouping. after that your kinda screwed. since UT doesn't offer "exact" groupings in areas i'd figure that for gameplay purposes the chest area be broken down into 2 maybe 3 areas ( left peck, right peck, and stomach ) so thats like maybe a total of 6-9 9mm rounds of protection before the armor is useless ( at least on one side )

the US RBA (Ranger Body Armor) is level 3a, and weighs in around 8 pounds. ( which means it'd get about an 8 or 9 bulk rating.) and has the option to add a heavier plating ( another 8 pounds ) and provides some protection from rifle rounds, however i dont have data on how many of these rifle rounds the plate will take before becoming comprimised. (The negotiated cost through the GSA contract for a size medium vest and plate is $738.)

boom
 

jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
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i think most people here are forgetting the weight factor.

From what i've seen on the forums from military type people, the type of body armour capable of stopping a rifle round (i dont know what class it is) conatains ceramic and/or steel plates.. a heap of clay on your chest is gonna weigh alot, slow you down, and tire you out faster. But lighter armour offers no prtection agains rifle rounds..

Theres a reason to have it, and a reason not to have it.

Although, if the weight and stamina drain of heavy armour is simulated, it would make a sniper unstoppable, because they would have no qualms with less speed, and you M16 isn't gonna do much if you hit 'em center mass.

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/bischlong/jaunty2.jpg><span style="width:100%;font-family:arial;text-align:left;color:red;font-size:12pt;height:12pt;filter: glow(strength=8,color=black)">Free f<u></u>ucking speach!</span><span style="font-size:12pt;width:100%;height:12pt;text-align:left;filter:wave(freq=1,strength=2,phase=4,lightstrength=55)"><span style="width:100%;font-family:arial;text-align:left;color:red;font-size:12pt;height:12pt;filter: glow(strength=15,color=lightblue)">
 

[121st]Burton

full-auto SIG abuser
Feb 7, 2000
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I don't know for sure, but I never saw or read a report about SEALs or RANGERs or other special forces of the military wearing kevlar-vests.
SWATs use them. But not the military.
There are just fragment-protection-vests (don't know the exact technical term) used in the german army.Their purpose is to protect a soldier from grenade fragments, not from bullets.

About the armoured sniper.
There will always be the "anti-sniper"-sniper. I think, that most people forget, that in almost every team one soldier will run around with the PSG or the Robar. If someone thinks his is "undestructable" just because he is wearing a super-heavy armor... well...a simple head-shot will teach him. He will be slow and because of that a good target.
 

[121st]Burton

full-auto SIG abuser
Feb 7, 2000
511
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Damn...must have missed that...
But there is also said, that it protects you from 9mm bullets. Since this caliber is used in SMGs and pistols only, it will not properly protect you from bullets shot by a sniper- or assault rifle. Even if it would offer some protection, after 2 or three shots it would get useless.
 

DEFkon

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Dec 23, 1999
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not sure about what's used in other countries but the big three types of body armor that i'm familar with in use by the USA's military are ( in no paticular order )


1. The RBA - Ranger Body armor ( Level IIIa) front and back. -- It also has a single front pocket for a "cermic upgrade plate" which would provide protection from 5.56 and 7.62 ammo. ( cost $740 USD roughly with plate. Weighs about 8 pounds w/o plate and about 16 with.

2. The PASGT-vest. ( Personal Armor for Ground Troops ) vest. This is essentially a tactical/flack vest with lots of pockets, and doo-dads to hang gernades from and the like. I don't have info on what level of protection it provides but it's said to be used in cases where a high percentage of the expected casulaties are from shrapnel, and fragmentation. cost??? weight about 9 pounds for a medium size vest.)

3. ISAPO ( Interim Small Arms Protective Overvest ) It offers Level 3a protection similar to the Ranger Body armor but is made to worn over the PASGT vest in order to provide protection from small arms fire & shrapnel. In fact a ISAPO & PASGT combo provides beter over all protection than a RBA with it's upgraded frontal cermic plate. (cost 330 USD / weight 16.5 pounds. )

As far as i can tell the bulk rating in INF at the moment is based on the weight of an object in pounds. ( an empty m16 weighs about 7.5 pounds and has a bulk rating of 8 ) IF the armor that the team intends on using in the mod is the same as i've listed (and uses the same specs )here you can expect about bulk rating of 26 for the PASGT/ISAPO combo alone... or for those truely affraid of lossing a life 32-33 bulk for a full RBA/ISAPO combo... which i imagine would provide 2 Level 3a vests front and back protection plus a frontal plate that can give protection from rifle rounds. ( level 3 armor ? )

boom