My Gripe - Underpowered Weapons!

[Dirty Sanchez]

Please code us some .308 caliber weapons! The M16 and P551 are ok, But at range, any non-head hit, is non-lethal. Lets get the venerable M-14, or maybe the FN-FAL... We need some iron sighted rifles that pack some punch. Leave the .223's for the squirrel hunters. Make mine a .30 cal

Thanks for listening

d royster

[Colte[LiveWireFreaks]]

Try the AKSMU, its packing some large ammo, there, and it's also accurate on semi-auto

http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?s=10009422&a=ga&ul=1950972301

[The_Fur]

7.62x39 has less wounding potential then the 5.56x45 because it doesn't fragment. It does however have a better penetrating power.

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[Dr.Dase]

Um, since when does 5.56x45mm FMJ rounds fragment?

[jaunty]

ummm, since around about the time they were made

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[Hannibal]

I'd personally like to see the m4 and some more pistols make it in-game before the m14.

[Dirty Sanchez]

There really isnt a need for that many more pistols. Realistically, the Bases are covered with the berretta and the Desert Eagle. I wouldnt mind seeing the .45 1991A1 Colt, But hey, I prefer the antiques. I would rather carry an M1 Garrand and M1911 then the M16.. Its just completely lacking (IMO)... Im looking for the Fal or G3.. either of them would be a huge improvement. The ak is my primary tool now. How about adding a regular Ak-47.. ??

[Dr.Dase]

Full metal jacket bullets seldom or never fragment, only if they hit solid matter, such as metal or stone, and even then they tend to stick together, maybe deformed, but usually not fragmented.

[Dirty Sanchez]

If a bullet fragments, its not gonna do its job very well.

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

5.56x45mm FMJs regularly fragment in flesh at higher velocities. (And this *helps* them to "do their job"- at slower speeds, when the bullet doesn't fragment, the bullet may penetrate further but the wound isn't nearly as severe.)

http://www.fen.baynet.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html

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[The_Fur]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Full metal jacket bullets seldom or never fragment, only if they hit solid matter, such as metal or stone, and even then they tend to stick together, maybe deformed, but usually not fragmented.[/quote]

You are probably thinking of AP rounds, those arecompletely different. They are solid needles of extremely hard material, they do not fragment but they don't do much damage compared to FMJ either, they just go straight trough whatever they hit which is not as damaging as fragmenting or tumbling inside the target.

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[DEFkon]

INF eventually intends to include body armor, and bleeding. Once these features are in the game then it will open up the doors for more weapons because different weapons and rounds have different effects on body armor, or the lack of it.

FN's P90 and 5-7 for example, are planned, as well as a HK MK23 .45 Socom with optional lam/supressor.

As far as i know, no new riles in different calibure's are planned at this time. The difficulty at the moment as i mentioned is the lack of body armor. Presently both a 5.56 and 7.26 will kill in aprox. 2 hits to the body.

If body armor and bleeding were implimented, the 7.62 round would have better penetration, and since it actually does more damage you'd probably die quicker from bleeding as well.

But at the moment there's little difference between the rounds, and since the #1 priority is to keep the game balanced, automatic, or even semi automatic 1 hit 1 kill weapons have no place in the game.

boom

[doorguy]

Well, I say, get good with the Robar, or stick with UT's Instagib...

doorbot.com (http://www.doorbot.com) - Online Gaming

[Dr.Dase]

Isn't fragmenting bullets forbidden to use on humans? Geneva convention etc.?

[The_Fur]

well i don't know, but hollow points are, they are designed to expand. FMJ is designed to penetrate, the fragmentation is just a bonus i guess.

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[WHY]

FYI Dr.Dase, Holloepoints are only forbidden in times of war.

[Xenomorph]

But are you sure all nations signed it?

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[Boomslang]

There are 2 issues with the 5.56mm which most are aware of: the tumbling, and the fragmenting. Both are a result of the relatively small size of the bullet.

The fragmenting results because the metal jacket is thin.

And most any bullet will tumble when it hits soft tissue, but smaller ones tumble sooner, making for nasty wounds.

Since it is a fully jacketed bullet, it conforms to international rules of war (at least any that NATO countries have signed). But I understand that there has been controversy in the past as to whether it violates the spirit of the regulations which prohibit deforming bullets.

[Sebu_NZ]

The Palestinians (damn, i dont think that is spelt right, sorry) were saying that the IDF were shooting at them with 'dum-dum' rounds, and then a investagation was headed by a American professor it showed that high velocity 5.56 rounds would enter the body and then turn around and fragment and shed copper dust.

ok something to that effect

Gyp. Shakken help us out!

[shadowkil]

AFAIK the tumbling of 5.56 rounds from AR-15's has more to do with the fact that the U.S. military used barrels with too 'loose' a twist in the rifling, causing the round to not be stabilized enough than with any property specific to the bullet itself. Apparently, this was done on purpose to increase wounding potential. I believe it was something like 1 in 14 (twists per inches of barrel) rather than like 1 in 9 or something like that. (I haven't got the specifics in front of me atm and don't feel like looking, but you get the idea)

[SpUnKy]

Could someone explain to me the logic behind watime laws regarding weaponry?

This is thousands of people trying to butcher each other until one side decides it doesn't want any more of its people to be murdered (pardon me, I guess government-sanctioned slaughter is technically not "murder...?") usually for purely philosophical reasons... not to mention sometimes against the soldiers' wills (I have to register for the draft sometime now).

And they throw this BS around about doing it improperly.

"They train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders do not allow them to write "****" on their airplanes, because it is obscene..."

-Apocolypse Now

[SpUnKy]

heheh.. that censorship thing is amusing in the context of that quote... ;)

[The_Fur]

Actually the breaking/tumbling occurs because of the increased resistance (blood and tissue are a lot thicker then air you know :)) The increased drag etc screw up the balistics causing the round to tumble and the increased stresses on the bullet may cause it to break up (like a American fighter doing a 90 degree turn upwards during full mach2 cruise :D).

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[shadowkil]

ahem. a quick search on google (http://www.google.com/search?q=tumbling+rifling+ar-15) revealed this (http://www.gunnery.net/glossary/t-glossary.html). scroll down to 'twist rates.'

[-Lost-]

hmm, i've only heard of m16's with 1 in 9 or 1 in 7 twist

Lost

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[Col.Sanders]

basically, it boils down to this:

1) use of hollopoints and "expanding bullets" on soldiers by soldiers during war is prohibited by the Hague Accords of 1899 or 1907.

2) the US never signed the Hague Accords, nor the Geneva Convention, but we usually follow them.

3) The 5.56mm does fragment when it impacts above 2500 fps. It is unintentional

4) The original AR-15 had a 1 twist in 14" barrel. This was not as accurate as the Army liked. The M16 had a 1-12" barrel. The M16-A2 has a 1-7" barrel. Current semi-auto-only AR-15 rifles are 1-9" or 1-8". While the 1-14" is fantasic with bullet fragmentation, it occurs in all rifling twists, and with the old M193 55gr FMJ and the new M855 62gr. FMJ (with steel penetrator).

5) The effectiveness of the M16 is due to its fragmentation, which carves a 7" diameter, 10" deep cavity at point-blank range. The 7.62's, both the russian 39mm and the NATO 51mm, don't fragment, they tumble. (The West Germans have a round for the 7.62x51 which fragments better than the 5.56mm

6) The 5.56mm/M16 has superior wounding capacity at point blank range than the 7.62mm/M14. However, the heavier bullet carries further and will still tumble at ranges where the 5.56mm is pitifully weak and barely airborne (500m+)

[Dr.Dase]

Didn't know that about fragmenting bullets, but as i use to say, you learn something new every day...

Spunky i love that quote from Apocalypse Now! :)
Btw, there are certain "rules" in war, because war between states are not supposed to be a slaughter, it's supposed to be an elongation of diplomacy.

To WHY, i am aware that this is so, because these rules only apply in wars between souvereign states, not any type of conflict within the state, such as civil war or police affairs.

I hear that US law enforcement use so called "tactical" rounds, that are basically hollow points, anyone know anything about this?