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4th Apr 2000, 02:25 AM
Cant get my brain around this, trying to make a building that has a slanted roof, but a flat spot on top as well so the cube goes from say 1280 X 1024 to 640 X 580 higher up and on all sides there is a gradual slant to the top. How do I do this?

All help is highly appreciated, Im sure Ill go ohhh when I hear it, but just cant seem to get it, funny how UEd does that to you.
CC


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hunchback
4th Apr 2000, 04:06 AM
I'm not quite I understand what you're asking about. Do you mean the walls of the building are slanted inwards slightly and the top of it is flat in the middle and slanted down around the edges?

If so, just add the initial 1280 x 1024 cube and use vertex manipulation to pull the top vertices in to 640 x 580 (480? 580 isn't a factor of 16). Then, make a new brush, slant it appropriately with vertex manipulation, and use the intersect and subtract tools to slant the edges of the roof.

Let me know if this isn't what you meant and I'll try again. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bad.Mojo
4th Apr 2000, 06:55 AM
So you basically want a roof designed like this:
.._..
./ \.

Er, yiah. The dots are there as filler so that the spaces stay properly... the roof is the /, _ and \ parts.

I figure you'd have to skew the two brushes, so that they lean on an angle, and then make a flat horizontal one, and then intersect them. But this is once again the famed TOOMA. Yes, Talking out of My Ass now has its own acronym.

[This message has been edited by Bad.Mojo (edited 04-04-2000).]

4th Apr 2000, 12:20 PM
Bad.Mojo thats exactly what I want, sorry my explanation wasnt clear. It could also be called 'beveling' I guess, but yes that is what I want to do.
CC

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hunchback
4th Apr 2000, 01:10 PM
Yeah, you could use either skewing or vertex manipulation to get the roof to look like that. I like vertex manipulation more because that way, you only need to make one brush and you don't have to reset it after you're done, but either method should work fine. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gunslinger
4th Apr 2000, 02:25 PM
I couldnt resist, You could build the shape in the 2d-editor thing and revole it to four sides. Just thought I'd throw that in there : )

Bad.Mojo
4th Apr 2000, 02:40 PM
well, I was going to suggest the 2D editor as well, but that would be pretty complex (though you could make some cool shingles with it =)... as for the vertex manipulation, I seem to recall reading somewhere that it causes problems, so I stayed away from playing with it ever. I think one of the tuts (Wolf's?) said to steer clear of it. Dunno why not, I just listened like the sheep I am.

-Lost-
4th Apr 2000, 04:04 PM
i don't really like it too much, but wanderer keeps saying that it works fine as long as you move entire edges rather than just the vertices or something like that...

Lost

hunchback
4th Apr 2000, 06:01 PM
Vertex mapping, for me at least, is a godsend. I'd probably give up mapping altogether if I couldn't use it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So, here are instructions on how to effectively move vertices in brushes without screwing up your level:

First of all, save your level before doing any vertex manipulation. It can (very occasionally) crash Ued at random.

Select the brush in one of the 2D views and click on the vertex that you want to move (if you want to manipulate the "orange brush", you can alternately select the vertex in the 3D view). This step is kind of buggy, and you might have to go to a different 2D view to properly select the vertex, or move the brush off to the side if there's another brush on top that's covering the vertex.

Then, alt-click and drag the vertex to a new location. Make sure it doesn't end up in the same place as any other vertices belonging to the same brush, or Ued will probably crash.

After you finish working on the brush, use the rebuild function to make your changes visible in the 3D view. One of the things I like the most about vertex manipulation is that it makes it very easy to modify brushes that you've already added or subtracted in the level. I find that if I want to change the size of a brush, it's usually faster for me to just move its vertices inwards than to delete the original and add a new one.

Now, here's the crucial point that -Lost- mentioned in his post: EVERY FACE OF A BRUSH MUST BE PERFECTLY FLAT (i.e. all of the face's vertices must lie on the same plane). If you don't understand what I mean by the last statement, let me know, and I'll try to post some pics and a more detailed explanation.

Hopefully you guys will find this useful. Let me know if I wasn't clear in any parts of it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bad.Mojo
4th Apr 2000, 06:58 PM
I was following you all the way up to that make sure the brush is perfectly flat part, where you lost me. You mean the opposite faces of the brush have to run parallel or something? I don't know what the he-- forget it, post the pics, I'm developing a migraine trying to figure it out. My grasp of what a vertex even is so pathetically loose. I always hated math with a God-sent passion.

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bastard_o
4th Apr 2000, 09:32 PM
I know of three ways of making the shape which CC wanted, I expect there are even more as well.

I will attempt to show two of the methods which I would use normally depending on specific requirments and the third... I do agree with hunchback vertex editing can be cool to use on simple brushes but can if not done extremly carefully on larger faced more complex brushes can indeed lead to brushes with holes.

Turn Vertex-snapping off btw.

Make a level building box in clear world space away of your main level geometry. ie just subtract a 2048x2048x2048 cube brush away from your already in existance level geometry. (Rebuild your level, not that you actually need to unless you move it at all by accident at some point).

Make the active (red) cube into the size you wish, reset any scaling or rotations they may have been applied whilst building.

see http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/BrushTut_A.gif

Using your 2D front/back view make the pivot point of the active brush any one of the right-hand bottom vertices, then drag the active brush so its right edge touches the right-hand edge of the subtract yellow brush,

see http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/BrushTut_B.gif

Rotate the active brush with the <Control> rightmouse drag [drag the mouse right] until you reach the angle you require.

see http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/BrushTut_C.gif

Hit the de-intersect brush button.

see http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/BrushTut_D.gif

Rotate the brush as you did before but back so it sits back parallel, as it was before.

Make the active brushes default pivot point the active pivot point, Using the plan 2D view rotate the brush 180.

Using the front/back view as before do the other required slope.

see http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/BrushTut_E.gif

for the completed brush.

See next thread... for method two.

bastard_o
4th Apr 2000, 10:00 PM
A problem with the rotate and de-intersect method is you end up with the top sometimes being of a strange size, and what I mean by that is not a multiple of 4,8,16,32.

So to get another brush to sit on top of the brush EXACTLY would be a pain in the arse, well maybe.

Method two.

Again easy when you know how but it still has one little issue which again can be sorted easy, but again if you are aware of the technique.

Oh yes, this method used with other shapes sometimes doesn't give the effect you are after, don't ask why.

The 2D Shape editor... SAVE YOUR LEVEL NOW.

The 2D shape editor is completly excellent but is experimental, and can crash taking UnrealEd with it, so PLEASE SAVE YOUE LEVEL.

Fire it up. you will see this...
http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/2DEdit_A.gif

LeftMouseClick the apex vertex and do a menu_vertex_insert.

LeftMouseClick and drag the new vertex to your required position, in fact now just drag each vertex to the position you want.

Could look like this...
http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/2DEdit_B.gif

Next just select the menu_loft_extrude option type in your brush depth and orientation and click ok, close or drag the 2d editor out of the way, closeing it I find is better /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif because is sometimes gets hidden forever, humm very odd, I know technically why but sometimes can't get it back, bummer..

Anyway you should be looking at this now within the editor...

Next thread...

hunchback
4th Apr 2000, 10:32 PM
Okay, try http://www2.ucsc.edu/~erat/ued/simple.jpg and http://www2.ucsc.edu/~erat/ued/tricky.jpg for examples of legitimate vertex manipulations. (If the images aren't there when you try it, wait a while... The web server sometimes takes a while to mirror the directories.) I had a couple more screenshots, but the cheesy freeware program I used to take the shots apparently doesn't always make sure its window has closed all of the way before taking the shots.

To see an example of a messsed-up vertex manipulation, make a square brush, move a single vertex a little bit in one of the 2D windows, and rebuild. Now, examine your brush in the 3D window. Depending on which direction you moved the vertex, one or more of the faces (sides) will have a leak through one of its corners when you view it at an angle. This is because the face isn't completely flat. Just mess around with it a bit, seeing what works and what doesn't. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bastard_o
4th Apr 2000, 11:29 PM
Inbetween the hunchback vertex editing shoots cool nice timing hunchback (you must explain your handle one day /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Anyway back to method 2, sorry about this but my Cat like to sleep on my mouse mat under my desk light because it is warm.. arrrghhhh which normally involves lost of blood, mine...

Right you should be looking at whatever the 2D shape editor gave you after hitting the build button.

I never know which way up it comes in, but the shape of the brush will be correct so...

Get the damn thing in the correct orientation that you want and place it somewhere within the build box and add it.

See http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/2DEdit_C.gif

The front and back are made up of two polygons, bummer... as I mentioned above somewhere there is a standard method for getting rid of these, and it works for certain shaped brushes only, again not sure why and between you and me... do I care... NO

To get rid of these (rebuild your level only if you have moved the added brush after adding if you catch-my-drift.

Make an active (red) brush so it completing surrounds the newly added blue brush (the solid).

check all views to make sure of this, ha I have not done this before sometimes and you miss your target... lol

The active brushes default pivot point and orientation are also important, but why is a much longer topic and I will try to cover those some time in the future...

With the active brush in place hit the intersect button.

Look carefully at the new active brush, the split front and back should now be made up of only one polygon.

See http://www.planetunreal.com/realworld/2DEdit_D.gif

The shape we have now is perfect because the top is of a size which is exactly a multiple of 4,8,16,32,64 etc etc well 16 in this case because the 2D shape edit was set to have a scale of 1 which is 16 units per grid size.

Well there you go... hope that helps anybody that didn't know those basic UnrealEd techniques, I say basic because they are but believe me when I say that only when someone tells you or you experiment for hours like I seem to remember doing... or finding those often hard to find tuts, I actually can't remember much about where I know things from, sadly, but as luck would have it I never forget what I learn...

Bastard'O

5th Apr 2000, 01:10 AM
Well I think that I can now say, clearly what Im trying to do. Before proceeding please look at: http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/ingame/cornice.jpg What Im trying to do is make cornices on a roof using rectangles. Mike, your tut was helpful, but see how the edges of the roof all lign up linearly, and slant down to the corners? I couldnt figure out how to do this with a rectangular cube. Squares are easy becuase all sides are even, but when using rectangles, the rotation to de-intersect them gets all screwy. As the picture shows, I used squares and not only are there 9 brushes for the roof alone, but they do not line up (part if it was my haste to get it done as an example, but some of them really do not line up). Hope this is clearer and thanks for all the help, it has been great

CC

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hunchback
5th Apr 2000, 04:04 AM
Ack, this sucks... That web server still hasn't mirrored those shots of vertex manipulation I put up. I finally just put them on the little 486 that's sitting next to me; you can see them at http://hat.dhs.org/~daniel/simple.jpg and http://hat.dhs.org/~daniel/tricky.jpg .

bastard_o: Actually, I picked the handle many years ago, back when I started BBSing. I have scoliosis (just a slight curvature of the spine that you can't even see by looking at my back, not at all like those horribly misshapen people with back braces that they showed in the videos in health class back in seventh grade). /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My back would hurt pretty regularly back then, but now it doesn't hurt at all except for after I'm on my feet for a few hours, so I guess the scoliosis has mostly gone away, although I still catch myself slouching every once in a while. I've just been too lazy to think up a new handle. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

coffeycan: Making a roof like that would literally take fifteen seconds to do with vertex manipulation, and you'd only have to use a single brush for the roof without doing any intersecting. Just add a brush that's the height and base width and depth of the roof that you want to make, and then use vertex manipulation in both of the 2D views to move the top vertices in as far as you want. Rebuild, and you're all set. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Let me try to explain it in ASCII (not drawn to scale):

You have this (the building) in the front and side views:
+-----+
|..........|
+-----+

Add the roof brush, making the front and side views look like this:
+-----+
|..........|
+-----+
|..........|
+-----+

Using the method I explained in a previous post in this thread, move the four top vertices (left and right, front and back) inwards in the front view, giving you this (the side view will remain the same as it was in the last step):
....+-+
../......\
+-----+
|..........|
+-----+

Do the same thing in the side view. Now both views should look like the picture in the previous step. Congratulations, you're done! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(edited so the walls of the brush line up correctly in the font that I'm using)

[This message has been edited by hunchback (edited 04-05-2000).]

Gunslinger
5th Apr 2000, 11:03 AM
IMO the only practicle way to build those brushes is with vertex manipulation. All the above methods will work but look at the time it takes and how many steps are involved. With vertex manipulation you just build one brush at the required hiegth.Go to one of the side views in the editor drag the top vertices in toward the desired angle. Do the same in the other side view. Add the brush, copy polys to the brush and add three more where you want them Simple : )

Thats my two cents.

5th Apr 2000, 11:35 AM
Ahhhh I think that I got it now...why didnt I see it, rotation all all 4 axis...duhhh...sorry for the frustration I may have caused people...Mike I will gladly help you write and post the above tuts, same goes for those who also helped me..

While I havent actually done it yet...I can see it in my mind, the big obstacle..Ill let you know how it turns out.
CC

5th Apr 2000, 12:53 PM
Success! This is the second try, the first was a bit off, so here it is: http://www.planetunreal.com/realmaps/ingame/hooya.jpg

Thanks to all those who helped me, I specifically posted this so that you would know that your time was not wasted.
CC

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5th Apr 2000, 06:51 PM
Hmmmm, just tried it with a hollow cube, and it besically desected the sides off of the cube leaving me with two cubes, a large hollow one and a smaller solid one up top, can this be done with hollow cubes so I can get vaulted cieing inside and out?
Thanks
CC

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bastard_o
5th Apr 2000, 11:46 PM
CC can you draw the shape you want, in a paint program, rough as you like maybe a 3D perspective with the inside structure in another colour, as you know there are many ways of skinning a cat, de-intersection and intersection in conjuction with a little bit of 2d editor if need be will do the job for you.

6th Apr 2000, 01:55 AM
If you look at that picture I posted above just think of that with a cube on the bottom, only hollow, so the ceiling inside would have the same shape as the outside. If this doesnt help, lmk and Ill whip up something...
CC

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hunchback
6th Apr 2000, 02:25 AM
To see how to do it with just two vertex manipulated brushes (heh, here I go again) look at http://hat.dhs.org/~daniel/vaulted1.jpg (sort of looks like a watermelon, now that I think about it). If you lower the grid size, you can make it like it is in http://hat.dhs.org/~daniel/vaulted2.jpg, with the roof a constant thickness all the way around.

(edited to get rid of a wayward comma that found its way into the second URL)

(and edited a second time to remove the comma from the URL itself, rather than just the URL's text string. Why can't UBB just leave trailing punctuation out of the link?)

[This message has been edited by hunchback (edited 04-06-2000).]

6th Apr 2000, 12:19 PM
Got it! Thanks very much..Im sure this has been tedious for many of you...
CC

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Bad.Mojo
6th Apr 2000, 12:24 PM
Because hunch back, if UBB was actually easy to use like HTML, it would take away all our woes.

bastard_o
6th Apr 2000, 05:49 PM
Hey HunchBack, some handle ideas for you... I am joking of course...

Vortex, VertOmen, VertexMan, VertEdit, VertEditOmen, VerEditOman, Verty, EditMan

I guess not good for gaming handles... but one that suited your obvious talents of Vertex editing... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I think that handles like that suck big time really, like a the guy called "LevelMaster" always makes me laugh like a drain that one.... lol

Hunchback is a cool handle anyways... /infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif




[This message has been edited by bastard_o (edited 04-06-2000).]

-Lost-
6th Apr 2000, 06:42 PM
well Verty is pretty cool ;-)

Lost

Bad.Mojo
6th Apr 2000, 09:33 PM
If you're going to knock off LevelLord, you at least have to go for the whole pirate look. Argh matey!

hunchback
6th Apr 2000, 11:30 PM
Heh, thanks for all of the handle recommendations, bastard_o. Not sure I like vertex editing enough to change my name to it, but I might reconsider if Epic fixes all of the bugs with it in the editor. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (joking)