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View Full Version : "Recon" for your team when u are dead , what do u think ?


gpk
20th Mar 2001, 04:29 PM
Some ppl feel it's good teamwork to report positions of the enemy team to your teammates when u r dead i.e. a ghost. Others think it's lame. What do u think!? How much/how little is acceptable ?

Please post your opinions here.
PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL.

Btw, I say it's lame!
( i will post more details later on my stand)
gpk

[This message was edited by gpk on Mar 20, 2001 at 17:50.]

DaddyBone
20th Mar 2001, 04:47 PM
Hell yes. Recon is an INF tradition, and it just makes sense. It's a lot more involved nowadays, in Unreal INF you could switch to the enemies viewpoint too.

I'll be damned if I'm going to sit for 2 hours watching 2 snipers on Extreme Prejudice sit on opposite sides of the map, nowhere near each other. I'm going to TELL my team mate he needs to hoof it to the other side.

Now, on the smaller maps I can easily let it slide, but on the huge ones.... fer goddess' sake, just ignore the type if you don't want to see it. The alternative is voice comm, which the majority of veterans use anyway... so if you don't see it, will you feel better about it? INF is all about TEAMWORK- without recon and voicecomm its just DM with sides.

I'll make my official stance right now. On ALL of the OFFICIAL INF servers, run by SOBServers.com, recon is not only allowed, but down right expected.

If other admins want to take up a different stance, by all means do so. It all comes down to choosing what server you want to play on, the game is designed to allow multiple alternatives, after all!

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

neko^
20th Mar 2001, 04:56 PM
It's a form of cheating. Plain and simple.

How do you justify this from a 'roleplaying' sense? Your man is dead, he has no right to influence the game.

Nothing craps me more online than when you're playing CS and people are ghosting on the other team. It gives them an unfair advantage.

"he's coming around the corner - shoot now!"

bah.
neko

NutBar-SOB
20th Mar 2001, 04:58 PM
Ghost recon is not only appropriate, it's expected.

gpk
20th Mar 2001, 05:00 PM
I think "GHOST RECON" in general is lame. It's right up there with ghosts opening and closing doors/windows and messing with the living.
Last thing i need is someone reporting my position as I am attempting to flank/sneak up on my opponents. It's equally bad when someone tries to "help" me by telling me i'm about to be bushwacked.

I often report the general positions of hostiles WHEN I AM ALIVE (given i have time to type).

I do however agreee w/ u DB that having 2 opposing snipers just sit there and do nothing in maps like Ext Prej and Kosovo is even lamer, and that is a situation where I would agree to report their positions to flush em out (i dislike Kosovo and Ext Prej , btw).

You will notice that most of the good players are almost constantly moving. Pausing occasionally to build up their stamina, communicate with live teammates or gauge the situation.

gpk

[This message was edited by gpk on Mar 20, 2001 at 18:06.]

DaddyBone
20th Mar 2001, 05:08 PM
So how do you explain RL Recon, that the military uses? We don't have the same resources in INF as RL, so you have to make do. And that's why the dead do recon. Now, if you want to enable the REALLY lame radar....

Explain to me how INF is a team game if all you can do is walk around and shoot... in RL you'd have 20 times the men, more equipment and by god you'd know if Joe got hit to your left. It just isn't like that in INF, as hard as we try, until VR is available, you have to accept certain compromises. Since you DON'T have the ability to walk and talk, you can't expect the live players to do recon 99% of the time! There just isn't the time to type it all out AND stay alive.

This brings up voicecomm... if everyone uses it, its fantastic and more true to life. You can walk and talk, providing live recon. It's why most veterans use it, and why SOBServers has a public RW base station, on an OC-12, to use. The problem is, not everyone can use voice comm. Once again, certain compromises HAVE to be made.

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

Acrappa
20th Mar 2001, 05:16 PM
Dead men can't speak. Plain and simple.

<p align="right">http://filmz.steirnagle.com/temp/sig2.gif</p>&nbsp;&nbsp;

[SOB]Zendar
20th Mar 2001, 05:38 PM
Well let the ladders start and whatch who is the leaders of the ladder (probly the ones who recon) and let the newbies (to inf without radiar) learn on thier own that they just are not so hot.

DaddyBone
20th Mar 2001, 05:55 PM
Duh, and normally live men have radios. Your point?

And if you really want to get into it, live men don't have stamina meters, glowing body-shaped images indicating where the damage came from, etc... Like I said, WE HAVE TO MAKE DO! We'd like to make it EXACTLY like RL, but it just isn't possible yet.

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
20th Mar 2001, 05:58 PM
we were here when inf was born, we are here still. if team recon is cheating then we are guilty, it speeds the game along and also is helpfull to unskilled players, and it will bring the team closer together in most cases....

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

wiseassbnty
20th Mar 2001, 06:02 PM
in my opinion it's wrong, I have been known to relay information on those large maps with two people left and all they're doing is sniping, but on a full team, when one person dies, just to give his team the advantage I can see that's where it'd cause problems.

now the other issue of Roger Wilco, Voicecomm, or whatever they are, those people are at an advantage, and theres no way to fix that, not like you can't allow that. No way to stop it, it's going to happen. I played this weekend, small lan party (3 people) we all played (or tried) to get on the same team and when one of us died, we weren't typing to each other where the others were, one would just look over on another screen and see. or I'd lean over my shoulder and tell the other guy. now you cant stop that from happening.

I am honestly torn both ways because of this, but now that learning that it's almost "expected" on most of the servers, I will not feel so bad about doing it. However what needs to be done is the teamsay needs to be a diff color or show TeamSay: in front of the incoming message, I've had people on my own team tell me to, "Shut up you're giving away your position" when I said it in teamsay. he/she didn't know you could do that. granted they were probably a n00b but nonetheless...

I think its a matter of personal opinion though on the "ghosting". I honetly don't pay attention to the "Teamsay" that others may tell me where someone is, mainly because that almost takes the fun out of it for me, like going to see a movie and having the guy next to you say, "Now that chick is gonna get gutted like a fish in the next scene!". Kinda ruins it. I dunno, sometimes I may do it, sometimes I wont, particularly in the large maps when it's 1 vs. 1 and you can't find each other or they're both sniping, I'll probably do it, other then that I think I'd just ignore it/not do it..

http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?s=10009422&a=ga&ul=8520909801

Clan BiNTY UT:INF Style, All your base.
<a href="http://www.whatisthebinty.com" target="_blank">Visit Clan Binty!</a>

[i]"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead Marines. And then you will be in a world of ****.

GNAT
20th Mar 2001, 07:01 PM
Sob fellas may have already read this at their site but I will post it here for the rest of everyone to see, I think the points are more than valid.

Recon/ghosting "IN MY OPINION" is cheesey. Yes I've been playin inf forever too, and I know it can really help out. But I believe that it takes away from everything 2.85 is trying to be. The stalking of an individual's foot steps shouldn't be interupted by someone tipping the stalked off that there is someone behind him. It should be up to that person to check his 6 and ensure he is not in any immediate danger. Often people refer to things such as friendly fire punishment as "not realistic". Well the same goes for recon. It may be an old habit to break but how many dead people speak to their teammates in war? None that I know of unless your that little old bidy from poltergeist. It in my opinion just subtracts from the fun involved in playin by intuition and the joy of success when you finally track down that last player and terminate him. All of this of course is just my opinion, I'm not trying to force it on anyone but its sad when someone will sacrifice the exhilaration of the hunt for the spoils of victory. Remember "its just a game" the fun is in the game, yes its nice to win but win or loose I still enjoy the game. The people I find ghosting are often the same people I find using the lean bug to their advantage. Just some of my thoughts, blow it all to hell if ya want.
I know that a lot of people use roger wilco too but not I.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

geogob
20th Mar 2001, 07:20 PM
I think recon, if there is no abuse of it, can be very usefull...

IMO it more to get some camper to move after the last player countdown in the 73rd minute of round 2 of 5 in EP :P

I think it should stay that way.

DaddyBone: if you want to switch to your ennemy view point bind those commands:
behindview 1
behindview 0

I use them for that...

... also quite handy when I come in in the middle of a round and dont know what skin I have... so I can see me from 3rd person...

I dont recommand playing that way though. :p
you'll live longer un 1st person

--- Geogob ---

The only way out is the 
C4 way

DaddyBone
20th Mar 2001, 07:26 PM
Man, you guys just don't read closely, eh? Everything you bring up has already been answered. In RL, you can't talk when you're dead, but in RL you also all have communications relays and you don't need to type to speak. As I KEEP SAYING, we'd all LOVE it to be like RL, but it's a game, played in a 2D world resembling 3D. Things are NOT perfect, and compromises have to be made. The thing everyone keeps missing is that it is STILL A BALANCE, there is no overbearing unfariness involved if both sides agree on it.

SO, like I also keep saying, which server you play on is a choice. If you don't like recon and want to bitch about it, stay the heck away from the Official servers.

I still wanna know how the heck you guys think this is a team game if you argue against every way of working together. Sounds like you need to give it up and go play some DM.

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

Dracil
20th Mar 2001, 07:42 PM
There is already discussion about this. Please refer to this thread.

http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10009422&f=76309922&m=7410984321

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Dracil
20th Mar 2001, 07:48 PM
BTW, I still don't see how in RL people would know where the enemy was if no one else saw them. If the enemy is hiding in the room behind the 2nd crate, and noone saw him. Please tell me how that information would be relayed out to other people EVEN with all that other equipment in real life.

How can this be a team game without dead people "reconning"? Simple, and I saw it done in practice real well today while on one of the servers. The people on my team would keep us updated about the situation with messages like "contact", "fall back", "GO!", and so on. It's not that hard. All you need to do is set up speech or key binds to messages. My entire numpad is mapped out with various messages that I use.

dapngwnman
20th Mar 2001, 08:10 PM
sheesh
i was raised in inf 2.6 on it
then i switched to TO and got gipped
NOW YOUR ARGUIN TRYIN TO TAKE IT AWAY!!!!!!
WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
anyone that thinks WRONG?
im at the point that THE DAP 1on1 LEAGUE IS OPEN FOR BUSISNESS
and my 3 words for you guys
JUST BRING IT!!!!!!!!!

-dap-leader of tacops squad for [ta] and the one of the best in INF
im just that freakin good
im not old school im NEW school
<a href=mailto:dapngwnman@hotmail.com>e-mail me</a> <a href=http://wwp.icq.com/scripts/search.dll?to=85402225>icq me</a>

dapngwnman
20th Mar 2001, 08:10 PM
and that is true
-dap-

-dap-leader of tacops squad for [ta] and the one of the best in INF
im just that freakin good
im not old school im NEW school
<a href=mailto:dapngwnman@hotmail.com>e-mail me</a> <a href=http://wwp.icq.com/scripts/search.dll?to=85402225>icq me</a>

Dracil
20th Mar 2001, 08:19 PM
uh, I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Take what away?

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

dapngwnman
20th Mar 2001, 08:21 PM
nevermind
but....
TEONET 1on1 challenge league for grundges is open for business 8)
http://www.expage.com/teonet
its a bad site but its what i need it for
anyone think that recon cheating go there and set up a match
SPECIALLY GPK FOR STARTIN TOPIC!!!!

-dap-leader of tacops squad for [ta] and the one of the best in INF
im just that freakin good
im not old school im NEW school
<a href=mailto:dapngwnman@hotmail.com>e-mail me</a> <a href=http://wwp.icq.com/scripts/search.dll?to=85402225>icq me</a>

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
20th Mar 2001, 08:23 PM
Crack Baby, Dont Come Cack! Crack Baby Dont Come Back!

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

Murphy
20th Mar 2001, 08:30 PM
Soemthing to remember, is that INF when all is said and done, it a game. In many aspects it's a simulator striving for realism, but there are compromises where necessary. The stamina and health indicators, for instance, are there to replace our "sense" of our tiredness and pain. Sound doesn't carry quite like it should, and there is no peripheral vision (unless someone has some sweet mulitple monitor set-up..that'd be cool). All in all, our ability to experience this environment is limited to two senses, and many small cues to cover for what would otherwise be instinctually known.

Now about that ghost-recon concern. IMO, it's one thing to call out the position of an enemy to keep the game moving. It's another situation entirely to shout out "He's right behind you" or some other surprise-breaking bs. Call out positions to keep the fight going, but after that leave it to the players still active to decide via combat who lives and dies.

Really, ghost-recon is great for referee-ing appropriate player behavior. Many servers consider it a gentleman's agreement not to play hill-sniper on Kosovo; or to suicide if you're the last one on your team and out on the hills. Ghosts help keep tabs on that stuff... they also have a complete freedom to generate screen captures and the like to chronicle these skirmishes.


There are far too many decent uses for ghost recon for me to speak against it. I think this is an aspect that we are on our honor to use with maturity to keep the game fun. It is a game after all, a damn good one.

Dracil
20th Mar 2001, 08:39 PM
then make it a server-side option, like mentioned before. For serious matches, like clan matches, turn it off, but otherwise, leave it on.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

nova
20th Mar 2001, 10:26 PM
I think CS has it nailed by making it an option. In pickup games nobody wants to wait around and the point is to play as many games as you can, so I have no problem giving campers incentive to move(I do have a problem with dead players picking up bodies and flying them in front of your face though!).

It should, in my opinion, be an option though. The only way teamwork is going to come out they way it was meant to is through clans, and clans are going to want to naturally play other clans. I for one don't really want my sniper position compromised(especially when it's sent through a com prog so I don't even know it it) A forcechasecam option allows you to customize it.

Freecam should not be taken out, but since most clans would be on voice com I still want to have the option to sneak around and have the peace of mind that I'm doing it well enough to not have the next corner be camped by someone that knew I was coming. If thats going to be the case I might as well have my entire clan camp one building covering every direction. No point in hiding so I might as well let them come to me.

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
20th Mar 2001, 10:27 PM
turn off for clan matches?

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

Dracil
20th Mar 2001, 10:52 PM
Why NOT for clan matches? Win by your stealth and observation skills, not becuase someone told you "he's there, around the corner, waiting behind that crate, in a prone position".

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Ambrosia[hsma]
20th Mar 2001, 11:17 PM
Don't use it for matches , That's when it's mainly use in INF. I haven't been playing long, just alit' over a year now and ever since I started to play People have ALWAYS used it !! And by taken it out, the maps will last longer and people will start to get bored with it and stop playing this game. I for one hate to sit there 15 to 20 minutes to wait for the next round to start and there's alot of other people out there feel the same way. To take away Ghost Recon I think would be a bad move ! But that's my opinion !!

Ambi

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
20th Mar 2001, 11:59 PM
i will agree with ambi

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

Snirpfel
21st Mar 2001, 12:30 AM
DaddyBone is correct when he states that this is a game, and that compromises must be made. However, I believe that allowing the dead to give away enemy positions is not the correct compromise to make. This is especially true in clan matches, where it will be used most effectively. In those instances, it introduces and EXTREMELY unreal aspect into a game that is supposed to simulate reality. In particular, it makes camping, an effective tactic IRL if used properly, completely useless. I have no problem with however people choose play in normal everyday games, but not having the option to turn it off is wrong. :mad:

I believe a more effective solution is to set up proper time limits. I have my server set to 60 second standoff mode. The only people left are camping? No problem, just wait a minute and it's over.

I've used ghost recon quite a bit while playing SF clan wars, and I know its effectiveness. I would have much rather had ghost recon completely unavailable to both teams then, and I feel the same way now. A compromise must be made, but ghost recon is not the one

http://www.freespeech.org/snirpfel/snirp3.gif

Smiley SK
21st Mar 2001, 01:39 AM
I am in favor of recon in a couple circumstances:

1) you are telling someone where you got killed / where the person who killed you is. Kinda like last minute info from a dying man.

2) the round is draggin on and people are camping, or the map is so big they'll never find each other.

3) Recon is always OK if you're alive!

4) Basically: does it improve the fun of the game for everyone? or is it just a cheap way to win? If it does the first, then go for it.

However, given that it's impossible to know if your enemy is doing it, I will probably ghost recon in any clan match. If it could be shut off that would be good, but since it's there you have to take advantage of it when the chips are on the table.

[121st]Burton
21st Mar 2001, 01:50 AM
I am really sad, that the SOB servers guys think that ghost talking should be used... :(

It is annoying if you are the last guy walking around and do not find the last enemy, because he is hiding somewhere.

BUT ghost talking is no option for me.
If I am dead, then that's it. Dead people do not talk.

I know that modern armys do know what happens on the battlefield, but even with spy satelites they will not be able to find the one sniper which is still hiding. They will know how many enemys are in one village, but they will not know their exact positions.

Its the soldiers which should clear this area to try and recon themselfs where a sniper could be lying and stuff like that.

So I think I have disproved your arguments about what the soldiers on the battelfield know and what not.

I am using TS, so I can radio my team where I have seen the enemy or if I could take him out.
This is useful and good.
But I do not want to get shot, because the other team use ghost talking and directed their last man right to me.
The last guys should fight against each other without help.
JSUT LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

I think I can talk here for the whole 121st Platoon, that we will not tolerate any ghost talking !

http://www.burton.purespace.de/seal.jpg

Party's over ! *grin*

[SOB]Grunt_X
21st Mar 2001, 02:27 AM
This isn't just about INF. Teams on the TacOps ladder do the same thing. CTF teams talk all the time. If you talk to mostly any clan on any ladder for any gametype, they use voice comms. Why? Because it takes teamwork. Especially if both teams are using it then it still takes skill to kill your opponent. Neither one has an advantage if you both know where the other is. Kind of like a western gunfight. So far the issue hasn't come up for the ILCR ladder but I'm pretty positive that Electrolov will agree that it should be allowed. Why do I think that? Because the -X- clan is #5 on the Tacops ladder and use it all the time there. If you want to arrange other matches where it's not used then fine. But the ladders will continue to allow it. Public servers as well. I'm sure some server admins would like to ban it on their servers. That's fine, it's their perogative. Play there if you dont' want it. It's all about choice. INF is very realistic, but not totally. And that's why I love it and don't play Rainbow 6 all the time. :)

KNIGHT
21st Mar 2001, 03:03 AM
A dead soldier don't go around spying, this isn't the night of the living deads, its' INF.
I dont understand why, after so much flaming and fussing about "REALISM", we are now discussing this issue. Ghost recon is an unrealistic beaviour (it's cheating from my point of view).
Maybe in a future patch the INF Team could insert some a feature that could prevent live players to see the messages sent by dead players.

Cheers to everyone. ;)

http://fp.geocities.com/maurizio_villa/grailkn.gif
Cave Adsum

[This message was edited by Knight on Mar 21, 2001 at 04:12.]

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 03:12 AM
So we feel the big problem is waiting right? Try this.

1) Have the bug fixed so that players leaving or joining does not affect the timer (players joining should not be in the current game either)

2)Set a low player countdown time, 60 seconds seem fine. People can wait 60 seconds.

3)Right now, if countdown reaches 0, round resets. This makes for very long matches. Try this: If countdown reaches 0, the team with more players wins the round, if both sides have 1 player, then the round resets. This will speed up match progression immensely.

BTW, giving that "last minute info" is not a good idea. Good snipers are supposed to be able to take out the enemy without letting them now their presence. If you give that "last minute info", it defeats that purpose. It might be allowable if the moment you die, the screen starts fading, and you have until the screen blacks out to communicate (on headshots, you don't get this chance).

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Kettch
21st Mar 2001, 04:02 AM
Before I came to INF, I played a lot of CS and the problem is the same there.

A good sollution was the Force-Chasecam, which allowed you only to watch your teammates.

It should be used or at least be usable in INF, too, especially for Platoon-Wars.

In general I must say, that Ghost-talking is crap! INF is a real-mod. I don't believe that in reality the souls of dead soldiers fly across the battlefields and whisper in my ear. AM I JEANNE D'ARC OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?? :D

See you on the battlefields

[121st]Kettch

( visit www.infiltrationmod.de (http://www.infiltrationmod.de) )

UniMatriX004
21st Mar 2001, 04:29 AM
Recon is a option that is used as long as inf exists. Why complain about it now?
If you don't like it, don't play...

PhD Dolt
21st Mar 2001, 07:04 AM
Open play, go for it. Match play, no way

<img src=http://www.phragdoctors.net/infiltration/images/phdsig_plaque.png >

GNAT
21st Mar 2001, 07:44 AM
Ohhh penguin boy dap - I'd love to see you face off with the #1 CLQ ranked gpk. lmao that would certainly be entertainment. Any of my servers are open for it fella.

I agree I use ghosting to watch players, not a problem. Take away the dead peoples teamsay ability. They can talk out in open but not to give away their enemy's position.

I hope that we haven't come to argue over a misunderstanding of ghosting. I would hate life if the ability to watch the game after dead were taken away. It would be boring and uneventfull, however the improper use or abuse of this privilage isn't fair to the players left. This doesn't affect me because I'm always first to die, but I don't tell people where the other guy is hiding.

Ghosting and Recon two very different things.

Recon = a preliminary survey to gain information. Key word preliminary not after the fact, thank you mr webster. RL doesn't use dead people(ghost) as recon. The word in itself is irrelevant to this discussion.

Ghosting = flying around after dead. Not a problem unless used as the what people are calling recon.

Comprimise = Using Roger wilco during gameplay and special bound keys to keep up with your players and what is going on. Take away "TEAMSAY" only when players are dead. Let the dead guy talk out in the open with everyone. That in itself would slow down any misuse of ghosting.
Let people talk all they want to but don't use the ghost privilage incorrectly. I said it earlier in a post. One should not give up the exhileration of the hunt for the spoils of victory. And to add to it, one shouldn't take away someone else's exhileration of the hunt or the snipe or the ambush for the benefit of his team.

[This message was edited by {MUF}GNAT on Mar 21, 2001 at 09:21.]

Snirpfel
21st Mar 2001, 08:09 AM
Some of the people in here, and 1 other person who (accidentally?) started another thread about this argue that the current situation is the way it has always been, and that that is sufficient to keep it the way it is. If people bought that argument, we'd still have Jim Crow laws (laws descriminating against blacks for those who don't know your US history) and the only jobs that women could get would still be seceratary, flight attendant, and nurse. Maintaining the status quo for its own sake is just plain wrong.

For those slow folks among us, I just compared ghost recon to racism and sexism... guess you know my opinion about it, huh

http://www.freespeech.org/snirpfel/snirp3.gif

Cholo_Grande
21st Mar 2001, 08:41 AM
Ok I use ghosting. And I will continue to use it as long as it's there for the simple reason that everyone else uses it. I know it's an old INF tradition, but I think that 2.85 would play better if it was disabled. The only problem I see is when the last two people on the map are both holed up and patiently waiting, as DB pointed out. I think you can fix this with a shorter last player countdown.

Anyway ghosting is a little questionable in 2.85, but it's not the end of the world. If they remove the ability to do it from the game I would be all for it. The argument that the military uses advanced recon is just silly. Even the military doesn't have flying eyeballs that report back to friendlies locations of enemy forces. Close infantry combat is largely unaided except for nightvision, binoculars, and maybe highground recon. However none of this stuff provides recon in any way as accurately as a flying eyeball would. I know realworld and games are going to have diferences, but you shouldn't use that as the argument to continue a practice that is rapidly falling out of favor in the community.

[121st]Burton
21st Mar 2001, 09:30 AM
After rereading this whole thread I saw, that most of the people do not like all this ghost talking s**t.
I am very happy about it, because I/us will not be the only one/s who will not do this. :D

The only thing I can hope now is, that the ability to fly around, after being killed will be removed, or can be handeled by the server admins, as they like.

http://www.burton.purespace.de/seal.jpg

Party's over ! *grin*

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 09:47 AM
UniMatriX 6P: Recon is currently in INF, we wish to remove that from the game. The MAJORITY of the people wish to take that away. Read the poll on the main page. If you don't complain about it, people won't know there's a problem with it. Note: Read [AFD].Snirpfel's argument

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

UniMatriX004
21st Mar 2001, 10:09 AM
What i meant was that i'm playing unreal inf for about 2,5 - 3 years now, and i'm completely used to use teamtalk. You can see at the sobforums that everyone who plays it for a longer time agree with me. I for instance use it only when a few peeps are left, cauze otherwise your waiting till my monitor burns out...
I just don't see it as cheating..

Ambrosia[hsma]
21st Mar 2001, 10:42 AM
Yes [AFD].Snirpfel I am a women and if you are repling that women should stay out of this game well like I tell everyone else "Bite me" !! And for your info people in this thread are not talking about in real life 50 to 100 years ago either ... They are talking about this damn game and how ghosting recon has always been in to play back when it first started.

I have seen where some want it and some don't well I have one thing to say to that ... Those that want it stay on the servers that use it and those who don't well I guess you deal with it or find servers that don't have it on theirs !! Plain and simple, Recon will always be there no matter where you go and on what server or in what clan match you play in .. If it's not Ghosting Recon it's called Roger Wilco!

I feel this thread is a waste of time because even if they do get rid of ghost recon, What are you guys gonna do sit in the houses of the people your gonna be playing against to make sure they're not use RW or BC or other talking programs out there ! I don't think so !! It's going to take place regardless if people like it or not ... There's always a way of telling your team where the other team is !! And if it's out there you can bet your butt on it it's gonna be used !!!

But, that's just a opinion of a women so in a mans game it really doesn't count anyways now does it !!!

Ambi

Snirpfel
21st Mar 2001, 10:48 AM
My comment about women was to show how far American society has advanced from that point. What my side of the argument wishes to be done is to have the option to completely remove free ghost cam from a server. This will completely eliminate ghost recon. We aren't talking about some sort of community consensus being reached, we're talking about a solution being coded into a future release of infiltration.

EDIT: I'm not against using voice programs, I use BattleCom to talk with my clan all the time. We don't, however, do ghost recon.

http://www.freespeech.org/snirpfel/snirp3.gif

[121st]Burton
21st Mar 2001, 10:59 AM
@Ambrosia:

I think you misunderstood what this thread is all about.

It is NOT about Roger Wilco or programs like that.
These are usefull tools, make a hell lot of fun and are very important for team work.

But you should not tell your team mates where the enemy is, if you are DEAD !
Dead people should not be able to zoom around the map, go looking for the enemys and tell their team members, who are still alive, where they are.

I think nobody (male) on this board will say, that women should not play INF or **** like that.
But if someone should be that stupid, then you can shoot him. :)

http://www.burton.purespace.de/seal.jpg

Party's over ! *grin*

[This message was edited by [121st]Burton on Mar 21, 2001 at 12:05.]

Ambrosia[hsma]
21st Mar 2001, 11:13 AM
Well then what you just said I must say I have to go back to my first post and say it again, If you eliminate ghost cam from all the servers out there people will be sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next round to start and people are gonna get bored with this game !! I for one like to fly around the map, for one not to get bored sitting there staring at the same spot you died in and for two I like to go see what everyone else is doing and how their doing it maybe to learn more about the other team on how they play or just maybe learn something I didn't know before about a map or about guns and stuff like that !!
I think if the Ghosting Cam is taken out of this game, I think you would see alot of people or members of other clans stop playing this game because they are to busy with real life things to be sitting around waiting 15 to 20 minutes for the next round to start for them to be able to play again !! And INF is about TEAM WORK so keep that in mind when your decussing recon and Ghosting !!
How do you have TEAM WORK if you can't help out your team ???????????

Ambie

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 11:19 AM
I will restate what I have stated previously which should address your concerns.

"So we feel the big problem is waiting right? Try this.
1) Have the bug fixed so that players leaving or joining does not affect the timer (players joining should not be in the current game either)

2)Set a low player countdown time, 60 seconds seem fine. People can wait 60 seconds.

3)Right now, if countdown reaches 0, round resets. This makes for very long matches. Try this: If countdown reaches 0, the team with more players wins the round, if both sides have 1 player, then the round resets. This will speed up match progression immensely."

THAT should answer your concerns about waiting forever. Don't forget that last player timer. It is an important and useful tool.

As for teamwork. I will also restate my post from the other thread in the General Forum also on this topic. "Good Teamwork means keeping your team alive, not letting one die and then using him to scout out ambushes or warn of an incoming enemy."

Now as for it being in Infiltration forever. Keep in mind that the last online version of Infiltration was 2.75, but the change to 2.8x completely redefined Infiltration as an extremely realistic mod, unlike the old "weapons mod" it had been. So in the same spirit, old things that are not considered realistic, like crosshairs and ghost recons should be removed.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 11:29 AM
And ambrosia, I just took a more careful look at your post. Since when did we ever have to wait 15 to 20 minutes for the next round to start? Most servers have a 90 second countdown, some are even set at 60 seconds.

Also, if free cams are taken out, all you'll be seeing is what your other LIVE teammates are seeing, so you won't be saying anything else that they don't know already. Therefore, people using RW or other voice comm programs will not be a problem in the slightest.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

hokudan
21st Mar 2001, 12:37 PM
ok, I'll guess I'll throw two more of my cents out there...

> Recon is good teamwork:
Absolutely, Recon and position calling should be utilized when you are alive. I doubt if anyone is saying that Recon while you are alive is a bad thing. This IS Real Life, and should be expected.

When you're DEAD...well, I still support recon, to a point.

1. Yes, it helps move games along, and I as well hate waiting around for the last two people to finish. Anyone else notice me calling for a knife fight when there are only two people left and it's dragging?

2. Yes, I've benefited a number or times from excellent recon, and provided some myself. As long as it's an accepted practice, I'll use it. And I enjoy playing on SOB servers.

HOWEVER, I do agree with some earlier posts about DEAD recon, mainly:

1. The 'shoot now!', 'behind u!', 'just around that corner' kinds of help are on the bogus side. This is not realistic, nor is it speeding the game up. No amount of military technology provides the 'behind the third small crate in the shadow and you can hit him with a hk69 round aimed at a 42 degree angle' info. Nor should we.

Keep the Recon, but use it wisely. I try only to use it when the last few people seem to be chasing their tales or sniping. Then I limit it to 'Red Spawn' or 'Hill top sniper'.

So...keep Recon. It's a fantastic teamwork tool when you are alive, and keeps the game speedy (and fun) when you are waiting around.

*whew*

Some of you may still consider me a newbie, some may not. I couldn't care less. I just play.

Oh, and be nice to GPK, he's just expressing his opinion. And he's earned respect with his play, so let's all try to get along.

DaddyBone
21st Mar 2001, 12:44 PM
Honestly, almost EVERY SINGLE person responding against recon is a fresh face to INF. They have no ground to stand on, they haven't been playing long enough to understand it for themselves. Even GPK, who started this thread, admitted that during a long and grueling match, when it was convenient to him, would do it too:

"I do however agreee w/ u DB that having 2 opposing snipers just sit there and do nothing in maps like Ext Prej and Kosovo is even lamer, and that is a situation where I would agree to report their positions to flush em out (i dislike Kosovo and Ext Prej , btw)."

And the two maps he doesn't like are large maps that drag on forever WITHOUT RECON.

What it really breaks down to is this:
1) The 'newbies' are against recon because they don't really understand how the veterans use it. They're more than willing to do a little recon of their own if its convenient to them.

2) Veterans use recon to help their teammates and keep the game moving. We DO NOT constantly give updates, we DO NOT support cheating. What we DO is give general recon, like 'Other side of the map', 'Behind the houses', and, yes, we DO tell where someone is if they've been 'sniping' the ENTIRE freakin' map and not employing any of the much vaunted 'seek and destroy' methods everyone is ranting about being hurt by recon.

Once again, this is a TEAM game we're talking about. Since in real life you can talk hands free with your buddies, you can't expect live recon ALL the time in INF. I'm laughing my ass off at all of you who expect live recon to be the only recon because its like RL. Picture soldiers in battle having to stop constantly and type on a keyboard while some guy with a mortar zeros in on them. Yah. It COULD happen.

And, yet again... If you don't like recon done by your team, go play DM or join a server that doesn't allow it. YOU have the choice, so make it. SOBServers.com's Official INF servers will continue to support recon and teamplay.

OH, and perhaps all of you people new to INF should wait a little bit longer than a WEEK to post your opinions. I'm betting that they'll change and evolve with INF over the next few months. Let's wait and see, shall we?

(Oh, and before all the 2.75 clans get their panties in a bunch about being newbies: INF 2.75 was a placeholder. Something to get out there for the public to get a mere inkling of what INF was all about. INF 2.85 is the true essence of all things INF- From its roots in 1999 with Catalyst and 'Standoff' mode. INF is what it should be as of NOW, and is only going to get better. And that's why you see all of the TRUE veterans, the Unreal INF players, coming out of the woodwork to play. Don't get me wrong, YOU also have a true and valued part in the INF community, and we respect you for who you are. I'm just a little dismayed that we've already gotten into a 'moral' fight within a week of release. Usually this takes months to develop with other mods! Guess that really says something about INF 2.85 as a solid release, huh?)

P.S. Whoever that was that said that this isn't about voicecomm too is dead WRONG. What about those people who can't use it? I guess they're just SOL and we shouldn't help them at all, huh? Sigh, everything has its place, and, sadly, these things can be used out of place. But you live with what you have and use it as your own sense of morality tells you to. It ain't perfect, but its what we got to work with!

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

Dinkster
21st Mar 2001, 12:49 PM
I think the conflict is coming from two camps.

1. Group wants ghosting because it speeds up the game.
2. Group want to remove it because they feel it ruin the tactics of the game.

I think both groups agree that ghosting should be used when the game is bogged down IE. Two snipers waiting for the other to pass. So I think the major objective here is to find a middle ground.

Looking at the argument most of SOB has taken the stance that ghosting is old school and will always be used since we have communication devices that will by pass any ingenuity that the coders come up with to stop ghosting. All true. But a couple things; First Cholo made a good point, don’t defend ghost because the games are too long, shorten your rounds. Second, RL vs. INF two points. I think the point has been made repeatedly dead men don’t talk even if they have radios and act. They still don’t talk. So that’s a moot point. Also its seems strange to me the people that are complaining the about the length of games, didn’t say anything when the discussion of the removal of radar came up, I for one would much rather have radar then a ghoster. Seems more plausible. Last point on the SOB defense of ghosting, for all the rhetoric of RL and ect. Can you really defend a position that rewards a lack of skill? Example; Joe is hiding as a sniper in a great spot using all his ability to stay hidden. Stan, who has no idea where he is, and in fact doesn’t even know Joe has a bead on him, suddenly gets the message, "Hide! Sniper" from a ghost, even worse the ghost then directs Stan to Joe's location. Is this considered skill? Even looking at the idea of radios and communication gear of the RL, whose directing Stan, what omni present force is giving Stan info?

The compromises given are, don’t play on a server that allows it if you don’t like it, too bad everyone else will be using it. It just seems that for leaders of a community as SOB promotes themselves, there is a better way to address this then to say too bad, my way or the highway. Yes you have that option; it’s your server, but what about the community you support? Shouldn’t you find a compromise to this or at least address it in a dialog that is a bit more open?

Again this is my opinion, if you don’t like it, answer back with a reasonable post and Ill reply and rebut. Thanks for the read.

Dinky {SK}

Razorflower
21st Mar 2001, 12:53 PM
And I think most all the vets are. Recon is a tradition. It makes sense, and it keeps the action moving.

Razorflower

gpk
21st Mar 2001, 12:58 PM
attn: Daddybone

"I do however agreee w/ u DB that having 2 opposing snipers just sit there and do nothing in maps like Ext Prej and Kosovo is even lamer, and that is a situation where I would agree to report their positions to flush em out (i dislike Kosovo and Ext Prej , btw)."

I would not do it simply because it is convenient to me, but if ALL AGREED it was convenient for ALL. And i did say FLUSH em out. I would not report on their movements , whereabouts etc. once they both started moving.
I dont think the 2 remaining snipers would wanna just sit there and do nothing either. If they did however, I can spare the 60-90 seconds.

I have NOT done it so far.
Confronted with these situations so far, I've pointed out to the remaining players they they are the last 2 and are holding up the match. So far ppl have been nice and gotten off their perches and ran around hutning like madmen.

I think others have expressed smilar opnions to mine, which are clearly different from yours.

Even though we disagree, I'm happy to see many ppl posting many different views. That is waht the net is all about is it not ?

gpk

p.s. now im REALLY late for work, DOUBLE DOH!

Digi_PDX
21st Mar 2001, 01:08 PM
DaddyBone,

I have always respected your views and for the most part agreed. Your post in this thread was shallow and incorrect. I am not sure how you can generalize about other teams or even 2.75 teams because you are entirely to busy to even be out there on the playing fields with us. Not too mention not all teams use the INF forums as their hub so you don't assume all the teams here are the ones that exist and play. SOB does have a honorable history but don't let that be misconstrued as a right to denounce other teams soley on speculation or generalization. I have played with several SOB team members and I am sure they don't share your views.

------------------

http://bonecrusher.clanpages.com/sk/sk_logo_edge_a.gif

[SOB]Grunt_X
21st Mar 2001, 01:13 PM
I think the main thing we are seeing here is that the people that have started playing INF since 2.75 or just now with 2.85 are wanting to make the game as realistic as possible with no compromises. This is a valid point in that Infiltration is supposed to be a realistic mod. Here are some points to consider:

1)It's true that no ghost cam would make it boring for those learning the game and dying right away. (see rainbow 6)

2)No teamtalk when dead is pretty effective on public servers in TacOps. They already have this feature. But then again most organized clans use voice comms anyway.

3)Even if it agreed in the end that recon is wrong, there is no way to completely eliminate it without resorting to no ghost cam (see item 1)

I think the hostility is coming mostly because the community form INF 2.6 was a much smaller and tight knit group. We all knew each other. And recon was and is an accepted practice from just about every one of us. We are seeing a huge influx of new members to the community that want to change things. Well, change is hard. And also most people don't recognize the old school players because for the most part we didn't play 2.75 online. We either still played 2.6 or started playing TacOps while waiting for 2.85.

The main thing is to not get dragged down by all of this infighting in the community. The TacOps community sucks in my opinion compared to ours and I would hate to see us end up like that.

Furthermore, if you went into a room with a bunch of strangers who all knew each other, do you try to tell them what to do, what to say, or what kind of music to put on right away? Something to think on.

Let's just play the game the way it is, admittedly there are flaws. There always are. And become better aquainted with each other and grow as a community before worrying about things such as this.

[This message was edited by [SOB]Grunt_X on Mar 21, 2001 at 14:23.]

hokudan
21st Mar 2001, 01:22 PM
well said, grunt.

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 01:27 PM
If point 2 "Veterans use recon to help their teammates and keep the game moving. We DO NOT constantly give updates, we DO NOT support cheating. What we DO is give general recon, like 'Other side of the map', 'Behind the houses', and, yes, we DO tell where someone is if they've been 'sniping' the ENTIRE freakin' map and not employing any of the much vaunted 'seek and destroy' methods everyone is ranting about being hurt by recon." CAN be enforced, then it would definitely be acceptable IMHO. Problem comes with enforcing it.

Everytime you talk about saying "team games" and people don't wait and type in real life. True, but you neglect the fact that when people in clans are using voice comm, then that argument is pointless. It's near-instantaneous with voice comm, which DOES make it like Real Life, but you still would not be telling people in Real Life where the enemy was.

And the last point, joining a server that doesn't allow it. Maybe we would like to do that, but it's not an option. No recon cannot be enforced until it is a server-side option. That being said, once that's put in place, people who play on servers with recon allowed should not complain anymore (and I wouldn't if I play on one either).

Personally, I'm starting to see the points you guys have. So, while I personally, would prefer not allowing it, it would be fine for me to play it with ghost recons, as long as I know that it is expected on the server I'm currently playing on.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

DaddyBone
21st Mar 2001, 01:33 PM
Incidentally, NO ONE should take any of my responses as a personal attack against gpk! I like the guy and respect his opinions- we used to smack each other around in Unreal INF, so he IS a veteran in my book. We just have differing opinions on this matter. :)

And, BTW, I heartily agree that this should be a server-side option. I'm all for options on servers, variety IS the spice of life.

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

Dinkster
21st Mar 2001, 01:41 PM
Well looks like I’m back. And so quickly too. A question for Daddy? How long do we have to play before we can make an informed decision? How long before I get to remove the status of newbie from my player and I can discuss something in a forum of a game I love in an intelligent manner? What a strange elitist behavior from someone that wants this game to succeed. Even more so from someone who is a representitive of said game.

I agree with you in the assumption that most people use ghosting to help out and not to cheat, IE giving away positions constantly updating player on where people are hiding. But I think it is a mistake to say anyone can use ghosting, make it open season for ghosting, because then every Tom, **** and Harry would be reporting every movement on the board and ruining any hopes of being fun, with the defense that you can ghost, Daddy says so. But that person is ruining the IDEA of ghosting. But that’s the point, it’s a variable that is being trusted to people that could and probably will abuse it. I think that is why people want to see it removed so that people can’t abuse it, even if others are not.

Thanks Dinky {SK

gpk
21st Mar 2001, 01:58 PM
I appreciate that DaddyBone and I certainly bear no ill will towards u either. I appreciate all the hard work u have done and I doubt I could do the same.

I have to agree with dinky however, that there have been elitist overtones in many ppl's posts here and on the SOB forums.

I'm pretty sure it was not intentional, and I'm pretty sure I have been guilty of the same in the past in regards to other topics, for which I feel bad:(
Nervertheless I feel it elitism IS present, and i feel this elitism is unjustifed and somewhat insulting.
This can potentially be a problem in the future when discussing other topics we feel are important.
I felt it important to say this, and it does relate to the topic at hand.

Maybe it is better to cut the baby in 2, server side option for those who wish to host servers with ghost recon enabled.

gpk

[This message was edited by gpk on Mar 21, 2001 at 15:17.]

ovw
21st Mar 2001, 02:08 PM
I think the ghost cam is valuable learning tool, when I die (quite frequently really) I fly around looking for the teammates and opossing team members who are high up on the score board and see what they are doing right. I've found that watching 'clan' people is also helpful since more often than not they are operating in pairs or more covering each other, clearing territory and in general kicking serious butt.

Die and learn,

OVW

gpk
21st Mar 2001, 02:13 PM
I like this ghost cam as well,makes it less boring being dead (but i do not recon), but the topic here is GHOST RECON.
Should the dead be able to fly around and point out enemy locations to their teammates ?

gpk

Snirpfel
21st Mar 2001, 02:46 PM
Well, the foremost ghosting proponent (DB) just admitted that it's OK with him if disallowing free-range ghosting is a server-side option, and hopefully none of the anti-ghosting peeps would object to that.

The ghosting supporters want to play their way, and we anti-ghosters want to play our way. Having it as a server-side option will satisfy both camps.

About the elitism, I too have noticed that... to all you "vets," just keep in mind that you know absolutely nothing about the "newbies" around you. I myself am an experienced SF player and find remarks like

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They have no ground to stand on, they haven't been playing long enough to understand it for themselves[/quote]

extremely offensive. Infiltration is not the only FPS realism game out there, and years of knowledge and experience don't magically disappear upon taking up inf.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand... Does anyone actually have anything against having disabling free-range ghosting as a server-side option? It seems to be the logical solution to me

http://www.freespeech.org/snirpfel/snirp3.gif

GNAT
21st Mar 2001, 02:57 PM
Lol, don't worry dinky, we won't ever be called veterans. Everyone knows about the "moral" battles that MUF has had with SOB, for that matter with everyone else. And its sad to see that the "Official" inf clan can be so one sided to the community they are supposed to represent. I agree in many, many, many instances with people on both sides. I agree with gpk about flushing people out. But I don't agree with the arguement that its to be accepted based on the "grandfather" rule. I would like to hear what the programmers and the people that put all of the nitty gritty work in on this great mod have to say.(and I don't mean the beta testers, I mean the people who wrote the code) Instead of sob voicing not an opinion but the "official opinion". I thought it was about the community after all thats why you have server rules like no cussing and such right? The MUF servers are based on what the people think. This means what players think wether they are "newbies" or not affects my decisions running our servers. That would be me asking them on a daily basis how things are going and what should be done. What happens DB when the majority of the "community" sees things one way and you a totally different way? I'm not trying to get in a "moral" battle here with you, but I would like to be reasured that SOB being the "official" inf clan, cares enough about a touchy subject to have an open ear and be up for suggestions. As of now it certainly doesn't look like any of you care a bit about this. All because of the way you used to play the game. There are tons of players out there now, not like 2.75 and 2.6. Sob may be the biggest clan but its certainly not a majority of the INF players anymore and to be so boisterous over a touchy situation is to me a little chancy. Don't take any of this the wrong way, but I think the official inf clan should take this with a little more understanding. After all its the newbies that are important. They should be looked at like children - not the way you look at newbies now, "they have no ground to stand on" That has got to be the single most tactless undiplomatic comment i have heard to date. You can call me a newbie if you want but you should already know we aren't going anywhere. The truth is sooner or later your going to have to listen to what the community wants and some of the very intelligent suggestions. If by being a veteran means you must be set in your old ways and shoot down any suggestion or comments based on the way you used to do it, then count me out, I don't want to be that shallow and inconsiderate to the people that will be one day taking my place.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

NRA
21st Mar 2001, 02:58 PM
Some things in Inf. might be unrealistic, but Inf. is striving for total realism, so I don't see why something blantantly unrealistic should be left in when it can be easily removed with little cost to gameplay. I still think that a simple "Dead players cannot talk to alive players" option would be the best solution, as I can see the benefit to Recon on large maps.

N.R.A.

-Mayhem-
21st Mar 2001, 03:02 PM
I am for ghosting. Thanks for sticking up for it DB.

http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?s=10009422&a=ga&ul=232090527

Digi_PDX
21st Mar 2001, 03:06 PM
nice GNAT.

I felt angry but didn't know how to reply without being an ass. I think you accomplished that in your reply. Your being upset is evident but not out of control. Thank you for your submission.

------------------

http://bonecrusher.clanpages.com/sk/sk_logo_edge_a.gif

Smiley SK
21st Mar 2001, 03:41 PM
Some people are concerned that if ghosting was disabled, they would never learn while dead.

Well, the option to switch to a teammate's view should remain. Also, you could help a teammate while dead by being another set of eyes. I think it shouldn't even be limited to first-person perspective on the teammate anyway. So you could even "watch his back" by looking behind him. That's not too unrealistic, considering the hit to situational awareness we take by viewing everything through a 17" piece of glass.

Also, when a server admin wants ghosting to remain, it should remain. Yes, it's fun to fly around a map and find new spots / learn things. Therefore, play on a server that has it enabled. Then during matches, it could be disabled if everyone agrees on those rules.

Also, the argument that "it's always been done" is one that holds no water. :rolleyes: 2.85 is a COMPLETELY different game. There is no jumping from 3-story buildings. No running at full-tilt for 3 hours straight. No jumping 3 feet in the air time after time after time after time...... And just because that is the way it has been done, and is currently done, does not mean there is no better way to do it. And I don't think this has been a lame whiner topic. It has been about useful suggestion and comment on an issue.

Personally I'd prefer to have ghosting for casual games, and rely on an honor system to prevent blatant abuse of it. It *is* useful for speeding up the end of the round and can be used in a way that promotes skilled and enjoyable gameplay. However, for formal matches, I think we should have the option to disable it. And what I mean by that is disable the "free cam" not the "follow cams."

My 2 pennies. :cool:

dapngwnman
21st Mar 2001, 03:46 PM
i have A VERY GOOD IDEA
play and show your skill with the games you got
not with the stuff that you think is hot
so don't try to change it
just play it
or bring it
doesn't matter how ya say it
all i want is a competitive gaming enviroment
where evryone havin fun entertainment
and playin so they don't got no cares
and the give it the best without whinin tears

the moral is lets all get along
dap

-dap-leader of tacops squad for [ta] and the one of the best in INF
im just that freakin good
im not old school im NEW school
<a href=mailto:dapngwnman@hotmail.com>e-mail me</a> <a href=http://wwp.icq.com/scripts/search.dll?to=85402225>icq me</a>

Equs Pr8
21st Mar 2001, 04:01 PM
I have kicked the hornet's nest over.

Shorter rounds won't work. Eventually the rounds will degrade into a Deathmatch style of play where each team rushes out to those few positions where the kills fly fast and furious. So much for a sense of teamwork. Rounds that are too short mean those people who disregard teamwork (fragwhores or CLQ junkies) will fire off a few nades to get the quick cheap frags and will be the only ones who score points.

Infiltration Standoff is not Deathmatch, It's not about the fraggin point spread or CLQ. It's teamwork and that means you help out the other players. Even if your player is dead.

As for the other "suggestions," Duly noted, but if you aren't an INF programmer or a server admin, you don't count. That's harsh, but hey, you gotta work to earn the right to have your idea considered. Put simply, talk's cheap. (I am sure I'll catch flame for that comment, but I know I'm right. Prove me wrong and I'll shutup. :))

Before you pop a top and flame me for my insensitivities, consider this:

This argument seems to have most recently started when some players decided that a veteran practice was all of a sudden bad. You have to have a point of reference in all this. I have been playing INF since it came out and am now being told by people who I have never seen on INF that what I have been doing for many years is wrong. And not only that, but now I cheat?

Can you see where I would get pissed off?

I don't know where the line is between newbie and veteran. It's a vague, non-solid line but it involves much gameplay, good sportsmanship, respect of other players and the server rules, involvement on forums, discussion between players, good senses of humor, etc., etc., etc.

Ramble, ramble, doodle doodle dee. Wubba, wubba, wubba.

Equus-{Pr8}
Give_Me_Recon_Or_Die

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 04:01 PM
I just had a flash of inspiration.

Why not allow ghosting to be VOTEABLE instead of just a server-side option? That way, it can be dictated by the people who are currently playing on the server, after all, it is possible that the server may have it sest on something, but everyone currently playing wish it was something else. :)

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Equs Pr8
21st Mar 2001, 04:09 PM
The ideas that are being bandied about are straying from the topic.

Team recon. Good.

Go play counterstrike, rainbow 6, tacops, or quake (shudder) if you want something other than INF Standoff.

Equus-{Pr8}
Give_Me_Recon_Or_Die
--wearing his fire-proof suit. :D

gpk
21st Mar 2001, 04:09 PM
I have to admit in light of recent events I have concerns about SOB representing the INF community as a whole. Seems the wisdom of Solomon is required in this situation.
I have more faith in DaddyBone personally and I wouldn't want to see him singled out. DaddyBone has, at least in my experience, been rather fair in the past. He's been very vocal in this thread, these forums and the community as a whole and that is commendable.
BUT
I've seen a side of ppl i have not seen b4 on the SOB forums AND here, and quite frankly this worries me. This whole elitist attitude is totally unwarranted and can potentially be a very very bad thing for INF.

gpk

Snirpfel
21st Mar 2001, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>if you aren't an INF programmer or a server admin, you don't count [/quote]

I'm a server admin so :p :rolleyes: ;) :D :cool:
And even if I wasn't that was the most egotistical and uncalled for comment that I have yet to encounter in a forum. Shame on you. This forum is for PLAYERS to discuss their opinions, regardless of whether they run a server or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This whole elitist attitude is totally unwarranted and can potentially be a very very bad thing for INF[/quote]

Every community has its "vets" who think that they are special because they have been there a long time, as well as its vets that are truly valuable and respected members of the community. I haven't been here long enough to make any lasting judgements, but I have had quite a few negative first impressions.

http://www.freespeech.org/snirpfel/snirp3.gif

[This message was edited by [AFD].Snirpfel on Mar 21, 2001 at 17:19.]

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 04:17 PM
If everyone here had that type of attitude, the INF community will be stunted permanently. It stunts progress. It's almost like back when people insisted that the world was flat and refused to accept the slightest notion that it may instead be a sphere. Now, this issue isn't as black and white as that, but the thing applies. Sometimes people should look into how things have evolved, instead of holding to old concepts because "that's the way things have always been, and if you don't like it, get the hell outta here".

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Dinkster
21st Mar 2001, 04:25 PM
how strange it is that the "veterns" are basically saying NO to any sort of compromise. While most of us newbies are saying lets work it out, what a great sign for the future of this "community"

Dinky {SK}

[121st]Burton
21st Mar 2001, 04:35 PM
Would someone please get those SOB guys on the ground again ?
I think the community should set the rules and not just some "vets".
Times change and so did INF.
What was useful in INF 2.75 is maybe not the best solution for 2.85.

Another approach:
You have just one life. So you should be very catious not to lose it. If you are bad or played INF the first time you will get shot after some seconds. Now you sit and watch how the others play. This is a kind of punishment. You will learn, that rushing will kill you very fast and that if you look around corners fist and use cover you will live longer and have more fun.

If rounds are finished to quick, then where is the punishment ? You die and after 2 min you are back in the game. If I die in the first 30sec of the round I am willing to be punished and wait 5 or more minutes before I can play again.

Team play means playing in a team, when there still is a team. One on one should be just him and me.

I understand, that the "vets" do not want to give away their beloved ghost talking.
But do you really think that all players will be so mature to tell their friend just the general direction ? I don't think so. They will lead them straight behind you. Thats how it will end.

If anyone would use ghost talking like you did in "the good old days" then I would probably use it, too.....no, even then I would not use it, but that's not the point.
The point is, that there are enough immature people playing INF so it will end in a very bad way.

http://www.burton.purespace.de/seal.jpg

Party's over ! *grin*

GNAT
21st Mar 2001, 04:42 PM
My last reply was directed at some veterans of INF based on previous comments. This one is to define myself. I've been playing INF since Cholo Grande turned me onto 2.6 back before ut even came about. When I got my free copy of Unreal with my voodoo3. I didn't find 2.6 to be the game i was looking for. So I moved on to just playing Unreal with a "sniper only" mod. And so on to UT, 2.75 came out and I started playing it on a daily basis. My name at the time was GRAVity or GRAVity_k and I had tossed around many other names also. I've almost always been on dialup and I am to this day. Myself and some friends formed a clan called D2D. In this clan we made plenty of enemies and I believe were brought into the reportajerk forum on sobservers more than any other single clan. We D2D changed our name to Malicious Underground Force (MUF). We set up a 2.75 server in the absense of the SOB east coast server. This for a time was the only 2.75 server I could find with decent pings. We did it for a reason, so we could play,and the rest of the people could play. We had much more lax and easier rules than SOB to abide by and people liked us. Now on to 2.85, we have had one server up since the release and we just added our 2 newest 2.85 servers. That is 3 2.85 servers running now, and one more private clan server on the way. Just because all of you do not know who I am doesn't mean my opinion doesn't count. You can call me a newbie if you want, But the truth is I'm not, nor is my clan. Yes I am a server administrator, and trying to provide a fun place to play your game. You can also call me a veteran if you want, but I will not be classified as someone that has been around forever and is set in their ways, and never going to change. I say all of this to let you see things from my perspective. Here goes.

I think the abuse of ghosting is wrong. I do like to fly around though. It is a learning tool and a form of entertainment. I think there are many ways you could use this in a way to gain an unfair advantage on the field. In the same topic you could tip your player off to an AFK person. Which would be totally acceptable. As well as in certain instances when the map is dragging. But not step by step instructions on how to take out your enemy. I hope we are all in agreement on most of what I just said.

I don't want to remove the flying eyeballs. True we will never stop everyone from doing it, but there should be options to combat what some see as a problem.

-turning off teamsay when dead - this means only teamsay, true people will still have RW but this would drastically reduce the amount of people abusing the ghost option.

-server settings allowing ghost view or player view. That would be removing free flight but allowing you to tag along behind your players.

-and lastly the honor system, people may do what they choose but on specific servers the general consensus may be not to use it, so respect to the server rules and admin is somewhat expected.

These of course are all options, not ways to change the game. But make the game more configurable. That is what made UT such a great platform for all of these mods, the ability to make anything you want with a game. And I believe giving admins more options in this field would greatly benefit everyone.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

Digi_PDX
21st Mar 2001, 04:57 PM
I know there are alot of quake haters here and that is fine but there are some things to learn from the quake side of the house. It may not be realistic but it is a big online gaming community and alot of challenges have been met and overcome through their community.

You can't say something is the standard and expect all to heed your words. People know that the point of the game isnt to kill you own people but yet we still have people doing it. So saying Ghosting is or isnt bad will not fix the issues both sides are having with it.

Most Quake 3 mods have a system in place where when you die (become a spectator) you can only talk to other dead people (spectators). This allows the people still alive the ability to concentrate and allows the dead people to ramble on. It also cuts down on all the bad mouthing because when you die you cannot talk to your attacker until they die of the round restarts.

Quake 3 : Rocket Arena 3 has a "Competition Mode" where when enabled you cannot track the other team when you die.

INF isnt quake but if we give our suggestions maybe someone who can change it.. will get an idea based on our input.

------------------

http://bonecrusher.clanpages.com/sk/sk_logo_edge_a.gif

DaddyBone
21st Mar 2001, 05:18 PM
Sigh, if you're going to post in here, and look intelligent, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO ACTUALLY READ OTHER PEOPLES' POSTS!

Damnit, how many times have I said it should be an option? I dunno, but people like Dinky apparently aren't reading.

As for an elitist attitude... let me turn this around. How long does it take in RL for you to be considered a professional in any field? Long enough for you to prove yourself AS one, that's for damn sure. Do you honestly think that people who have been playing INF for 2 years haven't figured out a few things by now? That we have no wisdom to impart? Give me a break.

And while EVERY SINGLE ONE of my posts has been non-inflamatory, or at least I've tried to keep it that way, I see few others bothering.

Please, tell me why all the newer people know so much more about INF and the community if you haven't been around as long? Have you spent thousands of dollars on servers and thousands of hours of your time working toward developing INF? I don't think so. So don't give me crap about my ability to understand INF, or SOBs place in the INF community. We work damn hard to give you a place to play and have fun, maybe you could bother with a little respect. I sure as hell give others respect WHEN THEY'VE EARNED IT. I respect gpk, and believe it or not, I repect all the MUF peeps, and I respect ALL the peeps I've met on INF IRC and in the servers who go out of their way to help the new people, get things working, etc. These peeps are professionals, and should be treated as such. We all have disagreements, and differing opinions- but I only respect the opinions of those who have earned the RIGHT to have their opinions count. Especially after all the uninformed drivel I'm seeing here.

- DaddyBone

Online Consultant for the Infiltration Team
http://www.SOBServers.com
SOB is the Official Clan of I N F I L T R A T I O N,
the Ultimate in Unreal Reality.

Dinkster
21st Mar 2001, 05:44 PM
I thought I had shown I had been reading all the post since I was replying directly to all reponses to my posts. Sorry DB if I havent convinced you I was taking the time to read your posts, but I have and thats why I replied. Oh well.

As for being a professional, or professor..heh I can do without another title.

Just thought Id mention, I have been reading the INF forums since I pick up the mod. I never posted because for the most part I always felt there was a clique feeling going on with its posters. I tended to see alot of bagging on new players who wanted to join in the conversation. Im glad my suspicions werent wrong.

Dinky {SK}

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 05:51 PM
DB, your posts in general were not inflammatory, although in the heat of all this, it could've been interpreted as such. However, there are a few people who do give an air of superiority, which annoys the heck out of people, especially those who've been around, but not as long. The constant griping about how removing ghost reconning will remove "teamwork" is also extremely aggravating, because reconning is not the only way to have teamwork. It makes it seem like anyone who doesn't want ghost reconning does not want teamwork, although I believe I can safely say that that is not the case. We DO like teamwork too. I have played with people where teamwork was used with active communication among live players and it was actually effective.

Meanwhile, I've been reading this thread. http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10009422&f=36309458&m=3560972621

If what's said there is all good and true, then I have no more problems with reconning, as my major gripe with recon was the "unrealism" it gave, but if the evidence there is true, it can indeed be "realistic". So, I guess that means I no longer have anything against ghost reconning. :p

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Dinkster
21st Mar 2001, 06:18 PM
Dracil,
thanks for posting in a way to explain the frustration that many players feel about this.

I agree with you completely about the other topic.. if that is the case then I have no problem with it. Cest La Vie (sp)

I think the thing that has raised its head is what you mentioned. The prevalence of Oldskoolers to blow off anyone who hasnt played since 2.6 because we arent worthy of their time. I think that is the "heat" that is being generated now. Many feel slighted by numerous comments by the vets about how we shouldnt even be voicing opinions. Its just foolishness to handicap a new game by shunting the Noobs to peon status because we arent 2.6ers in your opinion. oh well.

Deathwing SK
21st Mar 2001, 09:07 PM
Well I has this wonderful analogy worked out involving parents and young adults, then I thought, "what will posting this really accomplish". I look back at many of the posts here and I wonder why this thread made it to 5 pages. You all have good points and you are all basing some things soley on unsupported opinion. I think the thing you all definitely share in common is that you got your points across. I am sure the INF team had noted all the suggestions here and have already started working on plans for improvements in the next patch. So really what good does it do to continue posting here when ppl are just getting angry at other ppl over a difference in opinion? I don't know everyone here but I know most of you and I am seeing good ppl starting to dislike other good ppl. Do we really want this happening here in the community we all love? The mod itself is only like 40% of the reason I play INF, the other 60% of the reason I play here is the quality if the ppl in the community. I come online and its just like walking into a friends party, friendly and familiar faces all around and good time sure to be had. Sure some of you have been playing INF longer than other, but does that really mean that we can't all party togehter anyway? Well I guess I am rambling, good day.

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Cholo_Grande
21st Mar 2001, 10:14 PM
I like what Edge pointed out. If we taek away the flying eyeball it get's pretty boring, but disabling communications in some manner would work great. If there was no teamsay then you could honorable help end a long running round and everyone would not second guess whether you had been giving positions away the entire round.

I have been an infiltration fan since unreal, and the reason I want a fix to the ghosting controversy is quite simply because the majority of the community that I hear from is in favor of that. I know that old school infers (myself included) have always used ghosting to help their team.

I'm feeling the urge to get longwinded so I'm going to cut this short. DB has done alot for the game. I never really kept up with the forums or even cared until Hogwash showed me how much trouble I was stirring up in 2.75. So I was pretty unaware of the effort he and others have put behind this growing mod. However, things do change and sometimes the old ways have to go.

Anyway I'm backing out now before I get too mired in this debate to safely extract myself.

gpk
22nd Mar 2001, 12:40 AM
I agree w/ u DB and others , server side option would be best. I'm sure some ppl will try to circumvent NO ghost recon server rules that by using RW or voice comm software, but I think most will agree that's just lame. I would ask ppl to try and respect server side rules ( the no swearing rule is tought btw :) )

I believe it's good to discuss and debate things in these forums. Many good opinions have been posted, some feelings have hurt I'm sure. Another underlying problem/concern was brought to the surface and that is also good. Everyone got a chance to voice their opinions and concerns.

Hopefully we all walked away with something more than just a bruised ego and hurt feelings.

gpk

UniMatriX004
22nd Mar 2001, 03:32 AM
I've seen in the examples about using teamtalk so far that you all? think that f.e. one person is sniping, and the other one is also sniping or wandering around. And it's not fair for the one who's sniping that the other player knows his position because he heared it from his TEAMmates.
But WHY do you think think taht the sniper won't hear from his TEAMmates at what position the other player is, like watch it he's coming in!
It's interesting to c what gonna happen, how will they react now they know eachothers position. Something new players will defintly learn from.

This not only speeds up the game, it also makes it more exiting to see.

Alpha_9
22nd Mar 2001, 04:38 AM
To be honest, I'm on the fence about this issue myself. I can see the points in favor of ghost recon, being how it does to a certain extent simulate RL recon capabilities, and adds another dimension of tactics/strategy to INF gameplay. Not to mention giving dead players something useful to do.

And yet I also see the arguments against it, how it pretty much eliminates the thrill of a good stalk & surprise ambush, & how it eliminates that sense of tension not knowing who the hell is around the next corner, and crapping your pants when surprised by a salvo of shotgun blasts from a dark corner you never expected it from...

So I guess I'd have to vote neutral on this one. Consider me a "swing voter"... :D


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Infiltration Battlegrounds (http://www.phragdoctors.net/users/phrag7/)

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Monk_Zero
22nd Mar 2001, 06:22 AM
-Copied from another post on this-
Personal opinion - THe dead speaking to the living has got to go. But I think that ghosting is still a valuable tool for those unfamiliar to the map and for entertainment for those that die early in a match. I would recommend that the dead be considered team 99 and only able to chat amongst themselves.
That said, there is value in getting some intel as to an enemy location. Borrowing an idea from an Anti-camper mutator I messed around with in the past, you may want to put in an intel brief if a player stays in the same region for an extended period of time. If a player hasn't moved out of a named region for over 3 to 5 minutes, the opposing team could recieve a voice comm from 'Overwatch' or something saying "Enemy activity located - " and include the location identification included in the map. This way entrenched snipers don't have their exact locations revealed, but can be realistically located by observers. It also doesn't penalize guys on the move constantly, and encourages displacement for snipers who don't want their general position away. The location ID's should be built in most of the maps out there, and all of the official ones. I'm pretty sure the only necessary coding is a count of the time present in the same location. I haven't noticed any performance hits by using the mutator that inspired this, so I wouldn't think it would impact the server too badly.

GNAT
22nd Mar 2001, 08:49 AM
reconnaissance

: a preliminary survey to gain information; especially : an exploratory military survey of enemy territory

Preliminary

: something that precedes or is introductory or preparatory:

Ghosting cannot be refered to as "recon" Recon is something you do first, not when you die.

Can we just get some assurance that the INF team will look into creating some server options concerning ghosting? I'm out of this one now, or at least until i get mad again. I would like to know that the INF team is listening, and actually consuming this input from everyone. Thanks, cya.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
22nd Mar 2001, 09:39 AM
......dead people cannot talk.......but can they come alive after the end of the round? can they magically appear back at there base?

just thought i would throw that in.....

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

ovw
22nd Mar 2001, 10:43 AM
As a person who spends much of his infiltration online time dead. I think the dead SHOULD be allowed to type to the living, how else would you be able to thank someone for your skillfully contrived murder? Or just a particularly good shot to the head? I LIKE typing to the living because more often than not the reason they are still alive is because they know what they are doing, and YES I will ask questions. Though I will try not do so in the middle of a firefight. I mean sure sometimes someone will be alive only due to luck, and low lag, and sometimes that person is me, and I usually have NO problems answering questions...which is one reason I die a lot.

As to this whole 'ghost recon' thing, I'm not at all sure how I stand on it. It FEELS like cheating to ME, so when a ghost is telling me about a bad guy I TRY to ignore it. And conversely when I am dead I do not tell the living how bad things REALLY are. But then I am a 'newbie' only being around since the 2.75 days. The thing is though I do NOT want to see the ghost cam go away, and as I stated above typing to the living is, I believe, a good thing.

Just curious...does anyone know if those voice communications systems have mac support?

OVW

Digi_PDX
22nd Mar 2001, 11:07 AM
So let me get this straight. I mean I am somehow a newbie to INF because I wasn't around the day the first version was released but...

We all want a realistic game. We complain about other games because they arent realistic. This forum/community has a little clique that kiss ass and flame every single person who comes to our forums. Now a certain few are whining they are used to a certain feature and the majority of the community says it's a bug. So because you are in the clique we should bow to your decision and agree that a bug should stay in the game?

You want realism?

Then dead people cannot talk to live people period. There is no other way to look at that. If you people are used to ghosting and giving away the enemy position well tough ****. Also if your so worried about realism why are all of you openly admitting you want faster games. You want to flush out campers? You yourself say this isnt quake. Then stop trying to have the best of both worlds. We can't run more then 100 feet... we can't jump more then twice... you can only carry a limited amount of weapons.. so why should you be able to speak to the dead. Keep ghosting in the game just shut the dead people up. If they choose to give away positions via RW then so be it...

When you get dropped.. I don't want to hear you whine and complain. And the person who said he liked complimenting his attacker... That's not realistic either. I personally dont want to be distracted by all the chatter. Plus when you join certain servers you wont have to listen to the spammers and flooding jerks that frequent alot of servers.

So either we are going to follow the realistic trend or we are going to pick and choose what we think are cool options and then only be partially realistic like all the other sim mods.

------------------

http://bonecrusher.clanpages.com/sk/sk_logo_edge_a.gif

GNAT
22nd Mar 2001, 12:35 PM
Give server admins such as myself more than one option. Read these very carefully, used in any combination these could be a very effective way to combat ghosting.

1. The option to turn freeflight ghost cam off, this would allow you to follow your teammates still but not see what everyone else is doing.

2. The option to turn off teamsay after death, allow the dead players to talk openly with the rest of the players but not in teamsay. This on a server where it is not accepted to ghost would certainly bring ridicule to the people giving away positions since everyone can see what you say.

3. The option to turn teamsay off after death and allow only the dead to mumble back and forth to each other. Not affecting the living I would not want this option on my server I would choose option #2

4. The addition of tactical information. ie. information from say "headquaters" or something of that nature that is displayed upon reaching the 90sec marker, giving general but non specific information to whereabouts of remaining players(teams specific) based on map locations. example: (Headquaters): Enemy location secure: North Main st. And this too could be a server option that would combat the extra long rounds. This being based on the fact that the army does update their soldiers on positions(except they are alive when updating).

Giving multiple ways for an admin to combat this would be wonderful, my server would fall somewhere in the middle with maybe one or two options on. The rest being viewed as overkill. But to each his own.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

-=TALON=-
23rd Mar 2001, 07:46 PM
I saw a setting in there don't remember what it was called exactly but it was along the lines of being able to chat while you were dead. I tried to turn it off on my server, but it seems to not work. I was still able to send messages. I personaly feel that recon for the living kills any level of realism the inf team worked to put into the game. down with talking dead.

GNAT
24th Mar 2001, 07:33 AM
I'll never get it

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

Me
24th Mar 2001, 03:36 PM
Well, when I started reading this thread I thought recon was completely lame. I still do but at least now I see that some people don't. I know there are valid reasons for using it, like speeding up the game, etc. but the bottom line is - Dead people don't talk.
Like I said, I see now that some people think it's OK to do it. At the very least, though, we should be able to make an informed choice. IMO, the worst part about it is that you don't really know it's happening. If you don't want to do it, you should at least know if others in the game are.
I assume the INF Team is still trying to figure out the best way to handle it. My suggestion would be to give us some server options. The picks could be - 1) Recon's OK in teamtalk, 2) Recon's OK but not in teamtalk (only for all to see), 3) No recon at all. It should also show the option when you sign on or on the HUD or something. Even better, show it on the server rules so you see it when you're picking the game.
If as many people want it as it seems from this thread, lets make it a fair thing!

{69}ChimpyNutz
24th Mar 2001, 06:34 PM
Ghost recon is lame. This game is suppose to emulate real life.
If ghost recon is acceptible then my new plan will be to jump on a grenade right at the beggining so that I can guide my team to victory.

I understand the frustration from the long DM games with snipers camping out 5 miles from each other. That sucks and is why there is the last player countdown. In those instances, the ghosts should tell their team mates to get out there and do something.. or tell the last players to converge at center of map to battle ti out.

The best solution is more CTF or other objective games. This forces people into the conflict. Then if all that is left is defenders on your team... tell them to go and try to get the flag!
null :D

{69}ChimpyNutz
24th Mar 2001, 06:49 PM
I understand DB's point about in RL you have radio, etc... But this isn't RL. It's a game. And I feel that the boundries that were set-up around it where to force people into more of a RL mode. And in RL recon is done by live people... And the teamsay is basically your radio. I think it is fine if teams use RW or GameVoice. If a tems invests the time to use it and practice together they should. It's the same as being able to personalize your keys. People who don't tak the time to are at a disadvantage.
I don't go all out. I play for fun. I hook up with friends and try to have a good time. But what is the point of trying to sneak from building to building and surprise the enemy if the have 5 "gods" floating around telling them exactly what you are doing?
If you want this type of recon power.. then give IR goggles, change the mod to have radar that can triangulate radio communications (teamsay) so when someone talks youy can pinpoint the transmission.
or go a little more into the fantasy realm and have mods like TRIBES has.. Build a spy plane the you can remote controll.. but then at least someone could shoot it down. There is no defense against this "GOD MODE RECON". Every "tool" of combat has a defense in real life.. so should this game.

You may now kick the soap-box out from under my feet and allow me to fall into humility.

:)

Have fun.. and make the game fun for all.

Rilak
24th Mar 2001, 08:14 PM
Well i think ghosting should be used to speed up really long matchs. and with people typing the speed isnt there to really effect the fight. I think reporting general locations is ok. like one at our base i will even say it in public chat so both sides know whats going on. or suggest hey you guys could meet in the middle :) that kinda stuff

Rilak
24th Mar 2001, 08:27 PM
didnt mean to reply twice here but i read some more about how many say dead people cant talk and that isnt real, well this is a game and if you want to get very real soldiers dont run about flinging grenades out of thier launchers in close quarter assaults. INF is an awesome game MOD, and all the features give it a very unque experience. using the its not Real reason on ghosting is unacceptable. As all firefights are standoffish affairs with everyone in cover not running around and blasting someone at 2 meters.
for me when someone says behind ya or look out!!! its pretty confusing and rarely helps me in any event. mostly just freaks me out and i run myself down circling :)

AuspeX
24th Mar 2001, 09:33 PM
Just make it so that dead people can't talk to live people. Ala Action Quake and all those other quake mods, as someone has already dutifly pointed out.

That will solve 99% of the problem.

Yeah, you still have the other 1%, voice communication, but that is unavoidable. The good majority of people won't bother and you will have communication with a few people... not everyone on your team.

For matches ghosting needs to be disabled.

Insert witty statement here...

Gandolf8
25th Mar 2001, 12:10 AM
I think being in spectator mode after you die is good. I mean, it would be hard to get rid of it cause the people who die early in the game would be bored, staring at a black screen.

However, the dead should not be able to talk to the living....that is a problem I think they will fix...

-Look behind you! A Three headed monkey! *scrambles away*

shan
25th Mar 2001, 01:36 AM
Looking back on the first time I played Inf 2.6, the one thing that really attracted me to the community was the people scouting for me from spectator mode. It adds a real feeling of team work. In Real Life, you would have reacons. Who on this post is going to be willing to put away their gun and play recon for their team? No one, because we all want to be in the thick of the fighting. The dead have nothing to do, so they get the job.

The Inf team may make it optional, but I have no doubt that it will remain available. And I can state unequivocably that Ghost Recon will be enabled on any server I run.

For those of you new to Inf, give it a chance. The fact that this is a game with limited methods of providing feedback to the player, unlike RL, stacks against you enough. I know a lot of ppl who thought it was unfair but live by it now. It actually helps to even things out and make the game more real, not the opposite. Why do you think Inf's most long-lived clan is all for it?

Shan

Nexus6
25th Mar 2001, 01:54 AM
I think ghost recon is going to go away. The INF community is changing, and its getting ugly out there. You hear lots of "behind you," "on your right," "look down," etc.

This is not the tiny community it was when 2.6 was out. You're not going to be able to control all the new people coming in if they have the ability to help their teammates by telling them EXACTLY where the enemy is. It seems that the majority of the people want recon out, and my guess is that the majority of the servers are not going to have it, including those who now say "we'll always have it."

TheShiningWizard
25th Mar 2001, 04:20 AM
Ghost recon pisses me off.

At school during my Web Authoring class, there's always a few games of CS going on, usually the lab kids against some random Internet people. Right when one of them dies, they start flying around yelling "He's running down *** hall. He's standing by the ***. He's coming around the corner! Start shooting!!" It's the lamest thing I've ever seen.

Once voice comm gets more mainstream, I can easily see thousands of people doing this online.

While I'd like it if recon was only used for times like the Extreme Prejudice example, I have no confidence that the majority of INF players will have the "honor" to do this. And why should they? They have the ability to cheat, so they bloody will. It's just human nature. They'll do anything to win. Hell, I'm guilty of ghost recon myself, but only during bot matches on our LAN. (I don't mind screwing over some bots, but real people are different.)

If the INF team sticks to the honor system with recon, the 14 year-old lamers will arrive by the thousands, and INF will have just as much cheating as CS does.

Sorry to put it that way, but that's just what I see happening unless ghosting is hampered.

PoDS
25th Mar 2001, 09:19 AM
I think ghost recon just should be banned, as well as the fact that dead people can talk to the living ones. And I suggest that those Extreme prejudice and kosovo snipers just start movin', because when the last player countdown starts they just won't win if there is nobody to shoot

http://www.zymodules.com/roel3000.hs/SpinningText_2.gif
[PoDS] Performer of Deadly Stylz
Don't forget to visit http:\\infiltrator.homestead.com

thornz
25th Mar 2001, 07:20 PM
Holy mother this took a long time to wade through. I'm suprised daddy hasnt simply closed the thread already.

In moderation, such as telling a person to stop sitting around and move, is good. I think it's essential. The problem is that nobody does that. They tell you exactly where to go and what to do and I think thats unrealistic.
People make the claim for recon existing in real life and this simply being somewhat of a replacement for it.
Well, this is the realism mod. Why don't you make some real recon devices for this? A real recon officer? Someone who mans a bunch of video cameras (basiclly spectator points, but all stationary) and maintains them. Not someone who stalks another player saying where he is and where he's going, which is NOT realistic no matter how much you claim it to be. I support any option other than an all seeing flying eye. Disabling teamsay, but not regular talk, would be nice as it allows both person to respond to the warning of "here he comes!"
by the way, I recieved a sound flaming as well as taunts of "newbie!" by SOB-Zendar today about my opinions on "recon". He/She promptly became an admin to the team messages, perhaps to prove his point but all it did was confuse me b/c a. I couldnt tell who he was talking to and b. there were these messages popping up on the front of my screen right in my field of view every 5 seconds. Personally, I'd rather play without someone telling me what to do. I have my living teamates to order and be ordered around by. By the way, the fact that the dead people have nothing to do BUT "recon" doesnt help any.
I'd prefer it as an option, that way i'll be avoiding SOB. I agree with anyone who thinks that SOB's support of ghosting is kinda sad (Burton!), and I also agree that only allowing ghost-chase cams are a good idea.

this is a revealing post. I've seen a lot of opinions, a lot of different people I've never seen before, and a woman, which blows my mind. I think thats awesome that there are girls playing this.

DADDYBONE: you're accusing (or did accuse) everyone of coming out against recon of being a newbie moron. If not given a choice, i'd learn to deal with it also, but I have a voice at the very least and I'd like to use it. You have an obligation, with those gold stars of yours, of either not talking at all or being as balanced an non-inflammitory as possible. Referring to other peoples opinions as "uninformed drivel" isnt a good way to start. Nobody has those stars on their chest in game. There are lurkers and there are casual players who are never going to be the kind of people who rack up posts here or can claim to have played this mod for Unreal. There are people who wouldnt dream of joining a clan, myself included (i've never liked treehouses myself) The question is who you are making this mod for, and whether it's the experienced few clansmembers or the masses of somewhat experienced players who are in the process of becoming, someday, veterans.

ok, there are my 2 bits, if you bothered to wade through 100 or so posts to read them (if you did, i'm proud! ). I'm slowly realizing I have little to no influence on this board. About 6 months ago, I posted constantly wanting to be known, recognized, and accepted kinda like Keechi is now. I left, came back, and now realize that it's not really going to happen. Now that I don't have as much time to play (away from a computer with decent internet acess), I've been coming to the board more often but I think it's soon going to stop due to a lack of time.

i'd like to see a balanced poll for this, one that cites all examples of solutions.

"e phallous maos e magnu est"
-the dirty monk

gpk
25th Mar 2001, 08:20 PM
Well I think it's unfair to accuse DaddyBone personally,and I doubt he would close the thread just cause ppl were disagreeing w/ him. He's been pretty fair all things considered. I think he's taking a lot of flak cause he's one of the few to post and reply in THESE forums. Many others have chosen to hide in their own forums and feel secure that they are amongst ppl w/ similar opinions.
It doesn't help that Daddybone and the SOB clan are the official INF clan; any bad behaviour from any of the members is magnified.

Clans are a funny thing. More often than not, clanmates will defend their members even if they think they are wrong (at least in public). Clans also get blamed for the bad behaviour of a few individuals, an unfortunate side effect.

Oh well, back to the oscars.

gpk

P.S. Woohoo crouching tiger hidden dragon is kicking arse so far !

GNAT
28th Mar 2001, 07:37 AM
remove free-flight cam, dead people will be able to cycle through the remaining players camera views. Disable teamsay after death, this will allow dead people to talk to living people but not directly to their teammates. Those two options together would take roger wilco completely out of the situation. Sure someone may be able to tip off their teammate on the general wherabouts of the attacker when he died, but in all actuallity this is realistic. I believe not allowing dead people to communicate with living people would be unecessary. If teamsay(where most of the ghosting goes on) were disabled and you were on a server that does not favor ghosting then any attempts to tip off someone to a location would be met with much scrutiny. Those are the two super changes that would work completely. Both of course should be server options so an admin such as myself can setup the server the way we feel is best.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
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