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View Full Version : The FINAL word in "ghosting recon"...


Razorflower
21st Mar 2001, 02:36 PM
Real time battlefield intelligence on the battlefield of the 21st century is fed to troops in the field via satellite, [KH Peephole type] look-down AWACS radar, EC3-Sentry look-down or forward looking, as well as a variety of direct/indirect airborne battlefield support methods, FLIR, AG3 assistance from helicopter gunships, remotely operated recon vehicles, [airborne and ground based] or hand held sets.

Additionally, real-time intel and recon is assisted by over-the-horizon radar CIC's aboard warships, or in permanent/temporary combat headquarters. This radar intel is so accurate the soldiers in the field can build a 3D picture from incoming data.

Recently in Bosnia, radar equipment was tested/deployed which tracked AOF [arc of fire] and ballistics data.

In an area known to have a sniper, this equipment was set up. Only one shot is required to track the bullet back to it's point of origin, at which time the sniper can be uprooted with conventional means. The equipment takes a radar photo of the bullet as it travels through the air, calculates it speed, trajectory and point of impact. It then calculates the point of origin and allows soldiers to locate snipers.

Point being... if the dead recon it DOES NOT detract from the REALITY of warfare. The REALITY is this.

Real-time over-the-horizon, airborne and satellite based intel is a staple of Special Ops and modern warfare.

This type of recon is NEVER SEEN nor HEARD. And neither are the dead in Infiltration.

The recon element must remain.

Razorflower

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 05:25 PM
This is all nice and good for outdoors, but what about indoor? If it works indoor, then fine. If not, then it's not going to end that quickly.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Razorflower
21st Mar 2001, 06:08 PM
No... being indoors offers no protection from being surveilled by satellite, EC3, or other airborne or ground based recon. These can use UV/IFR or EMM to track bodies inside a building.

Razorflower

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 06:16 PM
If the technology's this good, then it's not that much different than using radars now, is it? There are also GPS systems too.... Oh boy..........

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

LifesBane[4C]
21st Mar 2001, 06:17 PM
Plus, it's quite easy to tap Security Cameras.

--==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
Want to learn how to map? Email me!

LifesBane[4C]
21st Mar 2001, 06:19 PM
Infiltration is a team game.

I agree, having radar WOULD be realistic to a point.

But, having radar would make INF more of a one-man game, and cut back on the Team aspect of it.

Having your teammates be the one that provide you recon makes you, well...work as a team :)

Yes, this is a realism MOD. And, as I stated above, the radar would be realistic. BUT...there is a point in any realism MOD where one must consider whether to progress further in the realism or not. TOO much realism can hurt the gameplay. And, in my oppinion, the gameplay should not suffer. Remember guys: This is a game.

--==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
Want to learn how to map? Email me!

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 06:29 PM
No, I'm not saying that we should put radars in Infiltration (eck!). Just noting the fact that if technology's this advanced, then it's not much longer before it goes into widespread use in the military (if not already)

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

LifesBane[4C]
21st Mar 2001, 06:43 PM
They used that imaging thing in the last episode of JAG I watched :)

--==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
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Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 07:04 PM
Is there any link to any article that discusses this and perhaps gives examples of it in action? I would like to read about it since this is the first time EVER I've heard anything like this.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

[SOB]Grunt_X
21st Mar 2001, 07:19 PM
You've never heard of a heartbeat monitor or infrared imaging that can see though walls? Special Ops forces have been using these for a few years now at least. In fact, to bring up Rainbow 6 again, it has a heartbeat monitor in the game. Basically it can listen through walls to hear an enemy's heart beating if they are on the other side.

Oh and on the M1A2 MBT (main battle tank), the TC has a screen that will show the position of his entire platoon using GPS and also the location of enemies which have been plotted by the intelligence section.

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 07:26 PM
I read that that was based on "Clancy reality", and does not exist in real life. There was some thread about radars and someone mentioned that, and it was shot down by someone else.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 07:28 PM
Ah, found it:
The Fur: "Rainbow six is based on "clancy realism" hearthbeat sensors don't work IRL because they pick up the sound from ANYTHING that makes sound, that includes mice, toaster ovens, microwaves, squeeky doors, bed bugs whatever."

Col.Sanders: "There was a guy who tried to market a heartbeat sensor to the Military and Law Enforcement in the US. That specific device was a complete and utter fraud, serving as an illustration in how to dupe professionals. I don't know if other HBS's exist, but they would be subject to the limitations described by The Fur, plus the fact that your own heartbeat would be so close as to confuse the detector and possibly drown out distant signals."

Although, there are also some people who say that Clancy wasn't making it up. So, dunno.
http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

LifesBane[4C]
21st Mar 2001, 09:10 PM
Didn't Clancy serve in the Military?

--==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
Want to learn how to map? Email me!

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 09:20 PM
He might've, but these are books, based on real life stuff, but there may or may not have been stuff that he created to make his novels more interesting, suspenseful, etc.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

LifesBane[4C]
21st Mar 2001, 09:56 PM
I know-- I was just wondering :)

--==**LifesBane[4C]**==--
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StreetPreacher
21st Mar 2001, 11:06 PM
Except that you missed one very crucial point - none of the people feeding that data to the people on the front lines is FREAKING DEAD! But I guess you conveniently missed that minor point.

"FINAL" word indeed.

-SP

Ambrosia[hsma]
21st Mar 2001, 11:57 PM
Damn, Here we go again !! Give it up guys all your doing is starting the same thing up as in the last thread .. I think that who ever made the damn mod should have the right to choose what is in their MOD !! Not the community, Did the community put all of the hard work or long hours into this MOD ?!?!?! I think not, so there for I think to solve all these problems about the Ghosting Recon should be up to the people that made the MOD and if their are people that don't like it the way they made it, then DON'T play it !! Plain and simple and I think I have summed it up very nicely !! Play with what is given to you instead of bitching about what is given to you for free !!!

And I think that should be the last word on this subject !! :cool:

But that's my opinion tho ......

Ambi

Dracil
21st Mar 2001, 11:58 PM
*AHEM* I believe what they're trying to say that the dead people can simulate/emulate all this technology.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif

gpk
22nd Mar 2001, 01:26 AM
No offence Ambi but your arguments perplexed me.

We CAN CHOOSE NOT to ghost recon without the (allready overworked) INF team lifting a finger.
We can also choose to sit there and camp. Run around behind some map boundaries.
We can also be jerks in the game, make fun of oppenents and teammates. None of these actions would require any additional coding.

Friendly fire however is NOT forced upon us either but we have options to control it.
Server admins can CHOOSE to have no FF, mirror FF, Full FF, partial FF, whatever they like.

Daddybone himself said that having it as a server side option would be a good idea, as have others and I agree. I can't see how that would hurt anyone. I've always believed that respecting the rules on the server u r playing is the best thing u can do. And anyone who would want to circumvent the server side rules by using RW or other voice comm is just lame.

gpk

[This message was edited by gpk on Mar 22, 2001 at 01:44.]

Razorflower
22nd Mar 2001, 01:28 PM
Streetpreacher,

You missed the point. All I did was offer one possible explanation for "ghosting recon". I presented real world possibilities to explain how recon can be used in the game, and retain a "real" feel.

However, I do agree with Daddybone and GPK. Ghosting should be a server side option as it's not for everyone.

Razorflower

GNAT
22nd Mar 2001, 01:39 PM
Give server admins such as myself more than one option. Read these very carefully, used in any combination these could be a very effective way to combat ghosting.

1. The option to turn freeflight ghost cam off, this would allow you to follow your teammates still but not see what everyone else is doing.

2. The option to turn off teamsay after death, allow the dead players to talk openly with the rest of the players but not in teamsay. This on a server where it is not accepted to ghost would certainly bring ridicule to the people giving away positions since everyone can see what you say.

3. The option to turn teamsay off after death and allow only the dead to mumble back and forth to each other. Not affecting the living I would not want this option on my server I would choose option #2

4. The addition of tactical information. ie. information from say "headquaters" or something of that nature that is displayed upon reaching the 90sec marker, giving general but non specific information to whereabouts of remaining players(teams specific) based on map locations. example: (Headquaters): Enemy location secure: North Main st. And this too could be a server option that would combat the extra long rounds. This being based on the fact that the army does update their soldiers on positions(except they are alive when updating).

Giving multiple ways for an admin to combat this would be wonderful, my server would fall somewhere in the middle with maybe one or two options on. The rest being viewed as overkill. But to each his own.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
22nd Mar 2001, 02:00 PM
i dunno, i was boared so i made this......

http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com/recon.htm

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

freako
22nd Mar 2001, 02:16 PM
The only way to track a small arms battlefield is visually with surveilance aircraft. Possibly with GPS, one can keep track of individuals.

Here are the bad news for you recon people: GPS don't work inside. GPS don't work in some courtyards. IR and other similar technology cannot see inside buildings, never mind concrete ones. There are new technologies, such as ground penetrating radar, but there are no real time battlefield applications. Sure you can find those tunnels and clear those mines. Furthermore, satellites can only "hover" in the same area for 15 minutes, then you gotta wait for the next flyby, and that could be hours. The biggest advancement are unmanned drones, and CIA's new technology that sees right through cloud cover. The military is trying to develop small scale surveilance tools that can be used on the individual soldier level but many many years away.

So recon people, perhaps a compromise would be to allow one aerial observer/commander per team. But no talking dead people that can look into every nook and cranny.

In the firefight in Mogadishu, Garrison followed the battle from aerial video. Unfortunately in the confusions of battle, they the poor convoy was lost several times, and drove in circles. Aerial recon didn't do much for them. Because of lack of identiable landmarks, it usually went "Turn left, turn right" and the delay caused them to mix up the turns. Of course that was 8 years ago.

Ambrosia[hsma]
22nd Mar 2001, 05:48 PM
Then if this is a option then why is everyone still bitchin' about it then ??? Those poeple that have servers if they choose to not have it then don't and those who do do !!It's just like the cussing and everything else put up server rulers and if they come in and use it warn them once after that keep booting them Problem solved !! I for one and I speak for my whole hsma clan WILL NOT play on a server that doesn't have it !! And I think I speak for alot of other Clans also !!
I'm not here to debate with you all if it's a option in the server set-up then those that don't like it or want it, set it up that way and then you people that want not to use it, then go play on them servers !! But you all are saying that it's cheating and stuff like that, I mean yes in your eyes it might be cheating and yes before there's a big thing about you not playing Unreal INF cuz I know you have but and I have to agree with Daddy on this one (and yes I've only been playing alit' over a year) but Half of the people in that other post I've NEVER seen in my life, NEVER and they are yelling how it's cheating well it's not cheating, it's been in INF. for as long as I have played and if it was a cheating tool then why in the hell didn't someone bitch about it sooner ??????
I'm done with this agruement you guys are having cuz I know that there will be servers out there and from what Daddy has said all of the SOB servers are going to continue to use it so I'm not worried .. I'll just keep playing on SOB Servers if I have to or other servers that have it !! :)

Ambie

Evil_Rev.
22nd Mar 2001, 10:59 PM
This is a video game.
Point made. :p

Ambrosia[hsma]
23rd Mar 2001, 01:09 AM
What is your point Rev ???????? :rolleyes: To funny !!
You tring to get the last say here to as if you were in your own forum, is that your point ???? No wait, Why don't you just say "Well I think it's time to close this one" and be done with it !!!!

Ambie

[This message was edited by Ambrosia[hsma] on Mar 23, 2001 at 01:15.]

[SOB]Weevil_Monkey
23rd Mar 2001, 01:48 AM
.....go to sleep...its to late to be posting.....i geuss im a hypocrit

:D
visit my website at
http://monkeymaps.sobservers.com

The kids throw the rocks in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
Bion

Ambrosia[hsma]
23rd Mar 2001, 07:27 AM
Very much so !!! :p

Ambie

GNAT
23rd Mar 2001, 08:21 AM
Ambi if do recall your pretty big on the last word thing yourself ;) Anyway I saw a post from Buddypickel in one of these threads that says they will be removing teamsay when dead and the spectator view is still undecided.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"

Jackal<QSF>
23rd Mar 2001, 10:14 AM
Gnat I think thats total BS. I dont think the INF team will ever take out recon. You should'nt be baseing things on hearsay you know.

Death smiles at us
all..All you can do is
smile back =)
A.K.A. -Jackal-<QSF>

Dracil
23rd Mar 2001, 12:06 PM
BuddyPickle did say the words. [URL=http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10009422&f=76309922&m=9180933721]http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10009422&f=76309922&m=9180933721[/UR L]

Exact words are: "The dead will not be able to talk to the living in a future patch. Nothing is final about the spectator mode right now. Everyone keep his or her pants on."

He later followed up in another thread and said: "OK...I may be on the team, and what the team ultimately decides AS a team, will be final. So what will I put forth when we all discuss this? Here is my recommendation:
Living can talk to the living. The dead talk to no one. Why? Two reasons. There is nothing remotely realistic in my opinion, about floating around after ones death, and telling the comrades I left behind that some dude is waiting around the corner with a great big piece of ambush pie.

The ONLY reason that I don't think the dead should be able to talk to the other dead, is because I hate the flame wars and immature culture that is created by having such a forum in-game. (Besides the cheating, this is the SINGLE worst thing about CS for me.)

Now keep in mind. That is only this Pickles opinion, and the same opinion that I will put forth to the rest of the team. But one thing about Sentry Studios...the best thing will be implemented, of this I have no doubt."

Now let's all just drop the issue and let the Team make the final decision themselves, alright? This has dragged on for long enough.

http://web.ntown.net/~dpatton/INF3.gif
<EMBED SRC="http://dracil.tripod.com/cr011gm.mid" AUTOSTART=false LOOP=true ALIGN="CENTER">
</EMBED>

[This message was edited by Dracil on Mar 23, 2001 at 12:16.]

[This message was edited by Dracil on Mar 23, 2001 at 14:31.]

[This message was edited by Dracil on Mar 23, 2001 at 14:32.]

Cholo_Grande
23rd Mar 2001, 12:06 PM
Ok the point was made about the high technology of modern warfare recon. This is true, but does not apply and I'll tell you why. AWACS and satelite are great to know troop movements, anti-aircraft positions, and other movements and placements of forces. However Infiltration is not WAR simulation. It's small squad combat situations that we play out in this game. They don't fly AWACS over to scope out the position of a sniper. Most of these maps simulate small squad based urban ops. All of those technologies are useless for such things. Granted there are technologies that help those sorts of situations, but nothing that compares to ghost recon. Nightvision, infrared imaging, and highground position is all that you have. Highground can be performed by a LIVING player that gets a good position. Nightvision and infrared can be implemented in future releases.
Ok I don't want to hear one more comment about how satalite imaging, AWACS, radar, sonar, or any other high end technology has to do with infiltration. When we're playing a huge warefare strategy game then we can talk about this, until then keep it locked in your skull and make sur ethat drivel doesn't run out of your mouth again.

GNAT
23rd Mar 2001, 04:52 PM
Excuse me jackal, heresay would be a QUOTE directly from Mr. pickel. Last time I checked he had a hell of a lot more information than the rest of us as to patches, maps, and general INF crap. For christ sakes he updates the website. Do me a favor, GO READ THE POST ITSELF, click the little link below to read the HERESAY yourself.

http://unreal.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10009422&f=76309922&m=9180933721

Thanks jackal, don't asume i go around makin crap up and give me the respect that I might have actually got some information from someone who knows. Thanks.

<font color="FF6600">MUF, Grand masters of INF
<A HREF=HTTP://WWW.BUSWERKS.COM/MUF1><font color="#ffff00"><img src="http://www.buswerks.com/muf1/_borders/gnatban.jpg" alt="gnatban.jpg _(13343 bytes)"